S3Bonus Curt Thompson — Known Ministries

Season 3 Bonus: Curt Thompson

Alex Kocher (00:07.000)

well brenda and i are excited today to have with us on the podcast dr cart thompson he is a psychiatrist a speaker and author and he brings together a dialectic of inter personal neurobiology and christian anthropology i almost feel like i should stop there and ask you to unpack that because that is a mouthful and also because inter personal neuro biology is the first thing that

Brenda (00:26.287)

uh uh

Brenda (00:30.827)

yeah

Curt Thompson (00:31.380)

Alex Kocher (00:36.860)

made me sit up and take notice when i began to hear you on the podcast read your books i was fascinated just by the term

Brenda (00:43.487)

m hm

Curt Thompson (00:46.712)

Well, first of all, Brenda and Alex, thanks so much for hosting me. It's great to be here. It's a privilege. And as we were saying earlier, it's just really humbling to be in conversation with people who are working so hard to walk with people who are following the King because it's just not easy to do. So thank you. Thank you for coming.

Brenda (01:05.747)

Alex Kocher (01:09.960)

Curt Thompson (01:12.630)

This phrase, interpersonal neurobiology, is a phrase that was originated coin by my friend and colleague Dan Siegel now more than 20 years ago and has grown into its own scientific disciplinary kind of field. It really is a term, interpersonal neurobiology. It is a term that reflects what we're learning about the mind, which is that typically when we...

Curt Thompson (01:42.730)

average person on the street, well, can you tell me what you think the mind is? Most people would say, well, this is the thing that we think with, or it's center of our emotions, or it's our brain, all of which is part of this. But what we mean by this phrase is we're really acknowledging that the central nervous system, the brain and all of its associated neurophysiological connections,

Curt Thompson (02:13.210)

together are in concert forming what we call the mind. That my mind isn't just my brain, my mind isn't just my thinking self, it's not just my feeling self, nor is it as it turns out just me. Because my mind is always in the business of being shaped by its interactions with other human beings. And there are a lot of reasons for that. But it was a way for us to incorporate the word interpersonal,

Brenda (02:18.787)

Alex Kocher (02:28.060)

Alex Kocher (02:34.200)

m hm

Curt Thompson (02:42.810)

right? We are with with with each other neurobiology, the brain cells and the structures and all that has to do with my nervous system that makes up the brain side of that equation so that we're recognizing that it's a much broader system than what we have often thought it to mean, but also helpful when we start to unpack it. And I think the other thing that that it incorporates is this notion that there are lots of different scientific disciplines that have a

Curt Thompson (03:12.690)

in knowing what the mind is. Different disciplines study it in different ways, and so it becomes also a bit of an umbrella under which can come a lot of different disciplines who are interested in studying lots of different things about what makes up the mind and how the mind works, and especially a mind that's flourishing. So that's a little background on how that phrase came into being.

Alex Kocher (03:15.080)

Alex Kocher (03:35.740)

hm well i was introduced to you through your book the soul of shame and then went back and read anatomy of the soul and then of course most recently soul of desire and so it is really you know these concepts have slowly i think i'm slowly starting to make sense of them because because brandon and i bring it way down we bring it down to the level of

Brenda (03:35.847)

Curt Thompson (03:40.312)

Hmm.

Brenda (03:43.387)

mhm

Curt Thompson (03:46.477)

Mm-hmm.

Curt Thompson (03:54.430)

Hmm. Yeah, me too.

Brenda (03:54.887)

uh h

Brenda (04:02.587)

uh yeah

Curt Thompson (04:03.291)

Hmm.

Alex Kocher (04:05.080)

like we talk about inter personal relationships on this level dr thompson we need to show up shut up and then speak up and that's how far down we're bringing it

Curt Thompson (04:10.292)

Hmm.

Curt Thompson (04:12.692)

Mm-hmm.

Curt Thompson (04:14.790)

Hmm. Hmm. I Think I'm just gonna I think I'm just I think I'm just gonna put that on three by five cards and pass it out to all my patients I think that's a that's what I do. Yeah, I'll I'll site you. I'll site you on that

Alex Kocher (04:21.000)

oh okay but really go head brenda

Brenda (04:31.327)

uh yeah what well i was just going to say that you know just kind of my experience with your work and how it's been meaningful to me i love whenever i encounter someone

who has the ability the capacity and the knowledge to let me have a little glimpse that god is way bigger than i ever knew he was and i really want to say that that's what your work has done for me it's like when you talk about we're learning all this about the mind it's like well of course it's bigger and greater and grander and more imaginable than we could have imagined because this is what our god does this is how he creates and and also i come from the old school i've been involve with biblical counseling for twenty years and i feel lie there was a real dualism of you know the body

Alex Kocher (04:50.700)

m hm

Curt Thompson (04:52.753)

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Curt Thompson (05:00.412)

Hmm

Curt Thompson (05:02.790)

Hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

Brenda (05:14.287)

the soul or the body and the spirit and so there was this real we're going to help people with their spiritual walk but we're not going to talk about their bodies because that's only for doctors to talk about and of course we don't practice malpractice we don't practice mal practice that's right in giving medical advice but it is very helpful and i have found in the last years and more recently even through your work of just being more aware of the place of the body when i'm counseling people and even prescribing if you will some of the things that you teach

Curt Thompson (05:23.033)

Mm-hmm

Alex Kocher (05:28.180)

Curt Thompson (05:31.470)

Thank you. Thank you.

Curt Thompson (05:40.493)

Hmm. Hmm.

Brenda (05:44.307)

about breathing and about paying attention and those sort of things so yeah it's been incredibly helpful and applicable

Curt Thompson (05:44.970)

Thank you. Bye.

Alex Kocher (05:51.500)

m hm

Curt Thompson (05:53.836)

Well, and I think one of the ways in which...

Curt Thompson (05:59.110)

What I've tried to do is, I mean, in some respects, we live in a world in which science, such as it is, and scientists, you know, they carry a lot of authoritative weight in our culture. What science says about anything, I mean, heck, you slap a picture of the brain on a can of yogurt and you're going to sell more of it because people just think that's really sexy. Because, you know, because, you know, if it has to do with the brain, it's got to be good for you.

Brenda (06:21.087)

uh huh

Alex Kocher (06:22.300)

m m m

Brenda (06:27.607)

right

Curt Thompson (06:29.230)

about like, you know, just in the cultural consciousness about the role that science plays in the power that it has. What's so interesting is that this whole notion about, you know, how science and other disciplines can talk about the body and Christian faith talks about something else in like the spirit or the soul or whatever, what have you, you know, we often aren't aware that the reason that's happened is because it's been, you know, it wasn't

Curt Thompson (07:00.210)

the way we tend to separate these things would make no sense to a first century Christian or Hebrew. It would make no sense to them because for them, they're reading off the second page of the Bible, the very Bible that we're reading, and they would read that God formed the man from the dust of the earth, and that he breathed the breath of life into man's nostrils and man became a living being. And so that we are both dirt and we are spirit. And if you take either one of those away,

Brenda (07:06.747)

Alex Kocher (07:06.820)

Brenda (07:29.927)

yeah

Curt Thompson (07:30.791)

And so this whole notion of looking at neuroscience, looking at the way the brain works, is actually appealing to Paul's comments in the very first chapter of Romans where he says, from the beginning, the creation has spoken to mankind about God's power and his nature. And neuroscience is part of that very creation. And so what we're saying is that as we look at what we're learning about how the brain and relationships work together, we're really,

Alex Kocher (07:31.760)

Brenda (07:48.027)

yes

Alex Kocher (07:49.300)

m m

Curt Thompson (07:59.250)

finding more granular ways of describing what we've learned about in the biblical text from the beginning.

Brenda (08:07.207)

that's so good

Alex Kocher (08:08.820)

and the way that we have we've talked in our ministry is to talk about what everyday ministry looks like is to show up but i love that you're teaching us that when our bodies come together something is happening something that transforms us is happening can you say more about that

Curt Thompson (08:25.770)

Hmm?

Curt Thompson (08:28.330)

Mm-hmm, right. Well, I think, you know, when we say when we come together, when the body of Christ gathered, whether it's for a Bible study or for a Sunday morning, you know, for a worship service, you know, yesterday was Ash Wednesday, anytime we are gathering together, you know, we don't really pay that much attention to the fact that for me to be reminded that Jesus loves me, I, in, you know,

last probably anywhere from 150 to 200 years, what this mostly means when I say that I believe that Jesus loves me is the same thing as saying that I believe that one plus one is two or that I believe in the second law of thermodynamics, right? That I these are kind of positive truths that I believe with my left brain. It's a fact. Kind of like that's a table, right? That's a lamp. The fact that that's a table doesn't really do much for me.

Brenda (09:27.187)

Curt Thompson (09:29.010)

only having an encounter with the table, only having someone put a beautiful cloth on it and putting cutlery on it and bringing a meal to it. Does the table actually mean something to me? Experientially, the table doesn't really mean much to me before or unless I have an encounter with it in the material world. When I come to church, that the body of Jesus, literally, and they're like, that's not a like, that's not just a metaphor, right?

Jesus physically empowered presence in the presence of other people. If I'm going to know that Jesus loves me, the only way I'm going to know that is if I look across the room and I see the sight line to Brenda and Alex and I see the loving kindness on your face that I feel in my chest, that's how I know that Jesus loves me. I'm not, as we like to say in the business, until we feel something in our chest and our face and our hands, it's not yet fully real to us.

Brenda (10:27.587)

Curt Thompson (10:28.770)

And so the whole process of bringing the gospel to people means that we are bringing ourselves fully to people. The gospel isn't separate from who we are in the material world. Otherwise, I mean, Jesus could have like come up with some kind of cosmic marquee that he could have just posted just outside Jerusalem and just invited everybody when you get around to it, just come and like learn about it. But no, like he entrusted it to a group of like uneducated though thoughtful

Brenda (10:45.087)

oh yeah

Alex Kocher (10:47.260)

Alex Kocher (10:50.700)

m hm

Curt Thompson (10:59.610)

to now live this out with folks amongst their neighbors and so forth. And so one of the things that this work in neuroscience has done is that it has brought us back to a place where we are being reminded that the gospel is a fully embodied thing that we live out. It is not just this abstract set of principles that we are sent to in our intellectual minds.

Alex Kocher (11:17.100)

m hm

Brenda (11:18.587)

yes

Brenda (11:26.227)

yeah yeah that's so good i know that when we talk about walking with other people and our podcast alex alluded to the fact we talked about presence but we also talk about every day ministry there's presence there's listening there's asking questions and then there is speaking that is going to happen and we talk about this in in the way in a very simple way of like this is first for us that we're experiencing the lord and the word and the spirit and community transform us and then

Alex Kocher (11:27.160)

yeah

Curt Thompson (11:40.992)

Hmm.

Brenda (11:56.007)

become conduits of god's grace for other people so how do you see that relationship transforms us and why is that you know why is it so important for us to be facing one another in the exin this experience of everyday ministry

Curt Thompson (11:59.314)

Hmm.

Curt Thompson (12:13.470)

Well, I will say, so one of the stories that really has captured my attention in recent years is the story of the rich young ruler in particular in the Gospel of Mark, because it's in Mark's Gospel. It's the only account of the rich young ruler in which we see the writer, Mark, the writer notice something that none of the other writers note, at least not in their written space, which is interesting.

such a fast-paced gospel that he picks up on this detail and that is that after they have their initial the initial part of their interchange and he Jesus asks him what have you know what are the commandments have you kept and he said kept them all since youth and they list them and then their text reads and Jesus looked at him and loved him.

Curt Thompson (13:10.150)

And he said to him, there's one thing that you lack.

Curt Thompson (13:15.970)

And what's so interesting to me is the degree to which the lawyer, the rich young ruler, missed the look.

Curt Thompson (13:26.470)

And we see that, like, Jesus could give him words, but it was his look that the writer notes that he first missed. And what we would wanna say to all of our listeners, what we know, I mean, this is how the brain works, that long before I am able to make sense of the words that you were speaking to me, my brain is paying attention to and making sense of your tone of voice, your facial expression, your eye contact.

Brenda (13:30.167)

yeah

Curt Thompson (13:56.390)

you as a physical presence are the gospel to me long before your words are in brain time. And so to the degree that we are then paying attention to the fact that my very presence in the room literally is the presence of Jesus, long before the words are that come out of my mouth, is crucially important. When we work within our confessional communities, these groups that

Alex Kocher (14:02.660)

Brenda (14:03.447)

Alex Kocher (14:17.260)

Curt Thompson (14:27.110)

It's really quite striking how the interactions that happen over the course of many, many months are most powerfully brought really kind of to their most potent moments by virtue of how people find themselves weeping in front of others, and have it, and then recognize that others have to hold that weeping. They have to hold that. They have to hold their felt sense of embarrassment,

Curt Thompson (14:56.650)

one story after another about the parts of themselves that they don't, you know, that they really hate. And it is in the very physical presence of others being able to listen, receive, along with their words, but in the context of their physical presence, that transformation takes place over time. Because what we find that people eventually say is, I had to have, they will come back and report, I had the hardest conversation I've ever had in my life with my boss or my husband or my wife yesterday. And every single one of you

Alex Kocher (15:14.080)

Curt Thompson (15:26.490)

were in the room with me and I know exactly where you were standing.

Brenda (15:30.107)

Alex Kocher (15:30.360)

Curt Thompson (15:31.850)

And at first glance, we might say, oh, that's a sweet idea in which we say, actually, no, this is how the brain works. The toddler, when she's three years old, who goes off to preschool, she takes her parents with her in her mind. And if she doesn't have her parents with her, it's not easy for her to go. And so when we go places and take people with us, we're not just taking abstract ideas about the notion that Jesus loves me.

Alex Kocher (15:40.480)

Brenda (15:49.547)

Alex Kocher (15:51.460)

Alex Kocher (16:00.360)

Curt Thompson (16:01.670)

those people who are in the room with me, week after week after week, who have become the body of Jesus for me, who have become my Savior's voice, his sight line, his physical presence. And that is what gives me the felt experience of being seen, soothed, safe, secure, those four words that we talk about quite a bit in our work. And that is what transforms my life experience, literally by changing the way

neurons, its brain cells are firing with one eye.

Brenda (16:35.547)

Alex Kocher (16:36.780)

so dr thomson you mentioned your confessional communities and our listeners have heard me talk about ve been training with the lender center for the past three years and we we call them story groups but your confessional communities are very similar to our story groups would you tell us a little bit about how they work

Curt Thompson (16:48.933)

Mm-hmm.

Curt Thompson (16:55.390)

They are groups of six to eight people, and in our practice, there are two psychotherapists, two counselors, myself and somebody else, we have a number of them that are running. So two counselors that are facilitating these groups, they meet every week for 90 minutes and they meet in most of the settings that we're running, they're meeting relatively indefinitely. By relatively, I mean, we don't have a timeframe that limits them. Some of them have been running now for up to five years.

And in these groups, patients begin by telling their stories. But one of the things that we let them know is that we emphasize is that human beings are telling their stories everywhere you go all day, every day. There's never a time that you're not telling your story. You're going into safe way and you're telling your story. Whether anybody can hear it or not is another question. But you're talking to yourself, you're talking to other people. We are living, breathing narrations.

Curt Thompson (17:56.254)

The real question is, who is our audience?

Curt Thompson (18:01.450)

and who are the collaborating storytellers that are helping me tell my story? And one of the things that we know is that when I come to see somebody because I have what we would call symptoms, if I have depression and anxiety, if I've got eating behaviors, if I've got substance abuse behaviors, if I've got a whole range of different things that we take care of in the kind of psychiatric realm, if I have symptoms, what that means is that's my brain, body,

Curt Thompson (18:31.470)

matrix trying to get the message to me that I'm not telling yet. I'm not telling my story as truly as it needs to be told. And that includes, if I'm going to tell my story truly, it's not about like, well, it's not so much about lying about my story as much as I'm not telling my story fully in all of its fullness, which includes what are my longings, what are my griefs, it includes what are my traumas, it includes what are the parts about me that I hate the most,

Alex Kocher (18:39.460)

Curt Thompson (19:01.490)

but I would be too embarrassed to just actually say that out loud because that would sound too arrogant. All the things, what are the things that I, you know, what are the things that I, that I'm really pissed off with God about? Well, all the things that I don't have a place to name, and if I don't name them, those things become, literally, they will become parts of my brain's activity that requires extra energy for me to contain it. And that becomes energy that I do not have available.

Alex Kocher (19:15.100)

Curt Thompson (19:31.992)

to create the beauty and goodness in the world that God has waiting for me somewhere between now and the end of my day.

Alex Kocher (19:37.360)

Curt Thompson (19:38.870)

To tell our story more truly, we also, to do that, we need other collaborative storytellers, other co-narrators, who can help us do this because we've, from the beginning, we've never done this well by ourselves. It was never intended for us to tell our story by ourselves. It's not good for the man to be alone. Let us make mankind in our image so that if they're going to live like we live, then they're going to have to live like a we-ness. They're going to have to live together as more than just one.

Alex Kocher (19:57.000)

yeah yeah

Alex Kocher (20:06.060)

Curt Thompson (20:08.870)

digitally telling their story. They're going to tell their story with agency, but in the company of others who are going to help them do this. And we believe that in the course of this kind of work, we look more and more like the body of Christ that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 12. This notion that we all have different roles, different parts, we look different, we sound different, we... And as we come together with people who are different than us in vulnerable fashion, we

Curt Thompson (20:39.270)

that there is great beauty and goodness to create and to steward in the world and especially in those very spaces where we think that only ever ugliness could be.

Alex Kocher (20:51.220)

yeah

Brenda (20:52.267)

you know one of the things that alex and i faced a lot when we were talking to people is just the issue of loneliness which is the opposite of community and you know it's it's often times that i will be speaking with a woman who really can't even name one friend she would tries to be real and true with and i'm thinking this week alone i met with a woman yesterday who first meeting begins to just bear her soul in her story and looks up n in tears

i've never shared this with anyone and she was in her late fifties and there was so much pain there and she has carried this by herself and then i was thinking today i met with a young woman who has a tremendous amount of pain and for the first time she made herself uncomfortable and went and told some good friends and she's beginning to unpack her story and she said that her friend began weeping and she's never been able to cry over her story you know and so maybe just maybe you can

Alex Kocher (21:22.560)

hm hm

Curt Thompson (21:22.972)

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Curt Thompson (21:43.891)

Hmm

Curt Thompson (21:46.970)

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Alex Kocher (21:47.660)

Brenda (21:50.487)

speak a little bit to our audience like what would it look like you know they may not can get in your class or get into story group but practically as they're walking with people as we create and cultivate community what would that look like because we say that we have three super powers heavenly resources that god gives us on earth into the word of god the spirit of god and the people of god and i think that you know it's not jus a small group it's not just meeting to go through a bible study one day a week on though those things are good but how could our

Curt Thompson (22:10.270)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (22:20.527)

listeners begin to do what you're saying

Curt Thompson (22:24.810)

Well, I think tactically and from a practical standpoint, there is some instruction both in the soul of shame and in the soul of desire. In those books, there are some just some tactical ways that people can leave this out. I think. And so we can talk about those now, but I think more importantly, it's helpful for people to know that, hey, this business of telling our story to someone else, finding something is, because we often,

the question is put to me, where can I find a group like this? Kurt, we're gonna find a group where people can do this. And I will say, these are groups that you have to create. These are not gonna be groups that are just gonna show up on your front door. And you're like, well, that's a bummer because I've committed myself to not telling my story to anybody and now I'm gonna have to actually do the very opposite to which we would say, you're absolutely right.

Brenda (22:58.807)

right

Brenda (23:05.707)

yes

Alex Kocher (23:10.280)

Brenda (23:13.587)

Brenda (23:24.907)

Curt Thompson (23:25.570)

And we would say that Jesus knows exactly what this is like. The author and Professor Paul Borgman from Gordon College taught a course for many years on the book of Genesis as a literature piece. And one of the things that he notes about the way Genesis is written is the characters that jump off the page

and how it is, and one of the characters he explores is Abraham, and he notes, like, how many people did God ask before Abraham finally agreed to go with him to Canaan? Who knows? We don't know because there's no story there. But when you get to the Gospels, you do have a story of what it might have been like for God trying to find his Abraham, because Jesus asks all kind of people who say things like, I have to go bury my dad.

Alex Kocher (24:08.820)

m m

Brenda (24:09.787)

Brenda (24:24.187)

Curt Thompson (24:24.810)

piece of land. No, I can't, I know. Like Jesus knows what it's like to add. We just think that he just comes and just asks anybody, of course we'll go like Peter, James and John. We don't know how many people he asked before. Peter and James, John finally said yes because there's nobody there to tell that story. And so the first thing to say is that this whole business of telling our stories truly, of living in the light of the gospel in this way is not easy to do. People are afraid. We practice not telling our stories truly.

Alex Kocher (24:25.400)

m hm

Brenda (24:40.447)

Brenda (24:54.887)

yes

Alex Kocher (24:55.140)

Curt Thompson (24:56.411)

And so, for you to approach someone else, know that the first, second, fifth, seventh person you ask might say no. But the eighth might say yes, and it will mean practicing doing this very hard thing. Would you be willing? And by this, I don't mean just like picking somebody randomly off the street. Right? We're talking about, we're talking about, you know,

Brenda (25:06.547)

Alex Kocher (25:09.160)

Alex Kocher (25:20.500)

right

Brenda (25:20.867)

right

Curt Thompson (25:24.890)

anybody that you may know who you who ideally you're so like if look if you could have somebody listen to your story who would that be if I know you might have a hundred reasons why you think they wouldn't want to which is why you don't ask them but who might it be if they would if they would who would it be and let's try asking them and then you can begin to take and I'm sure that there are just some models that the Allender Center uses and others but

Alex Kocher (25:34.580)

Alex Kocher (25:47.380)

Curt Thompson (25:54.770)

There's just some straightforward models of how do we first begin to talk about our story? What are the things that I want to let people know? What are some important features of my story that are important to talk about? And then giving people the opportunity to ask me questions about this in a way that is not looking to condemn, but rather to be curious about the nature of my story, really trusting that in being curious and not being condemning, but in being curious, we are really creating an opportunity for the Holy Spirit.

Alex Kocher (26:12.400)

m hm

Curt Thompson (26:24.850)

to reveal things about God and about ourselves, that here to four we didn't know, we didn't know. Such that as those parts of us come into the room, we can then ask some other questions, like, oh, I wonder what happened to you? Not what's wrong with you, but what happened to you? And if what happened to you happened when you were 10, what would it be like if we were to introduce

Brenda (26:32.907)

Brenda (26:46.887)

m hm

Alex Kocher (26:47.560)

Curt Thompson (26:54.770)

10 year old. And how long would that conversation last? And there's more of these kinds of things, but all this is to say, I want to encourage our listeners to know, first of all, that if this feels hard to do, it's not because you're weak or because you're a coward or because you're stupid or because you're not working hard enough. It's hard because evil doesn't want this to happen.

Alex Kocher (26:56.040)

Brenda (26:56.747)

Alex Kocher (27:09.940)

yeah

Brenda (27:17.787)

Alex Kocher (27:17.960)

amen

Curt Thompson (27:19.850)

And because you're pushing against a lot of trauma, you're pushing against a lot of grief, you're pushing against the earth. And evil doesn't want this to happen. And so my encouragement is to say, Jesus knows that this is hard. He is not waiting at the end of this with a pen and paper grading you to see if you get an A on this test.

Curt Thompson (27:49.890)

doing everything he can to support your effort to ask the next person if they will help you tell your story more truly.

Alex Kocher (27:55.960)

Brenda (27:59.327)

yeah there's the ripple effect of that i find so often is that if you're willing to be open and vulnerable it's really an invitation for somebody else to do that and they're almost waiting and wanting and hoping in some ways that maybe somebody else would care about my story and so it's just such a beautiful reciprocal kind of relationship that ends up happening so often

Alex Kocher (27:59.800)

yeah

Curt Thompson (28:08.358)

right.

Curt Thompson (28:18.951)

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Alex Kocher (28:19.980)

yeah and i got to put it into practice because i started my first group a couple of weeks ago with almost no no rules and i'm a rules person so i mean i was like what do i do and so we came up with three guide lines we said what you when you hear someone else's story want you to do three things i want you to tell them what is going on in your body when you hear their story want you to tell them what's going on in your emotions what you feel

Curt Thompson (28:25.770)

Mm-hmm.

Curt Thompson (28:45.370)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (28:49.980)

and i want you to stay with them in the story don't leave them and go to the mom don't leave them and go to their brother stay stay with their perspective and with those three things five women have created the most beautiful experience that i mean i'm astounded at the beauty that can be created when we stay committed to really all these things you're talking about staying with our body expressing our right brain experience

Curt Thompson (28:50.870)

Thank you. Bye.

Curt Thompson (28:59.570)

Thank you. Thank you.

Curt Thompson (29:10.032)

Mm-hmm

Curt Thompson (29:12.670)

Mm-hmm.

Curt Thompson (29:16.770)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (29:19.940)

with another right brain and then just stay with each other don't move the advice don't move to problem solving don't explain someone else's perspective just stay with the person and stay curious about what their experience is and just with those three little hand holds it is created the most beautiful experience and it really it kind of takes me to one of your next big teachings is that this is what we are to be about is creat

Curt Thompson (29:21.318)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Curt Thompson (29:31.670)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Curt Thompson (29:37.970)

Thank you. Bye.

Curt Thompson (29:42.355)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (29:49.820)

ing beauty in this way within relationships

Curt Thompson (29:53.751)

Yeah. Well, you know, Alex, you're highlighting something that we find on the very first page of the Bible. And in fact, in the first two sentences of the Bible, we read something that's really crucially important. We've read the first sentences in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. That's the first sentence. But the second and third sentences are actually far more descriptive of what's really going on in this. And the

Curt Thompson (30:21.630)

and void, and dark, and the Spirit of the Lord hovered as it swept over the deep.

Alex Kocher (30:23.160)

Alex Kocher (30:26.080)

Curt Thompson (30:35.690)

In the ancient Near East, all of the creation narratives eventually get to a point where there is a God who creates the world.

Curt Thompson (30:47.750)

But before that God creates the world, that God goes to war with something. That God first has to kill a sea serpent, that God has to kill an agent of darkness, that God has to, there's some cosmic conflict in which are these opposing parties in which the God that eventually creates the world first has to vanquish other forces that are in the world before it can then go on and create.

Curt Thompson (31:18.810)

But the Hebrews have a completely different conception of their God. Their God is not at war with what he is with, he is hovering. He is simply present with what is empty and void and chaotic over the deep. He's just sleeping, he's just a presence. Which is a major theme that continues throughout the entire arc of scriptures.

Curt Thompson (31:48.030)

when God says to Moses, who's gonna, he's gonna send him to Egypt, and he says, but don't be afraid. And then he doesn't give him the list of 10 things he's going to do. He simply says, don't be afraid because I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm not with your brother. I'm not with your sister. I'm not with, no, I'm here. So Alex, to your point, like, we're not gonna go other places. We're simply going to be fully present

Brenda (31:59.487)

Alex Kocher (31:59.580)

Curt Thompson (32:18.490)

We get to the New Testament, Jesus says, don't be afraid because I'm, you know, I'm gonna be with you until the end of the age. I am with you. And this whole theme of presence, which is exactly what you're getting at, is crucially important because so many of us are walking around in the world without any sense that anybody else is present with us, let alone God.

Alex Kocher (32:18.600)

Alex Kocher (32:44.260)

Curt Thompson (32:44.430)

And so this notion of being with someone in your storytelling groups that you're describing, someone being with someone, that attentively is the beginning of beauty, because we, in order for us to actually be attuned to, let alone create, beauty, we have to be present with something long enough, continually enough, faithfully enough, steadfastly enough,

Brenda (32:51.427)

Curt Thompson (33:14.430)

that all the stuff that it is throwing at us is not going to have us leaving the room. God did not leave the room, God simply hovered with the chaos. When people are telling us their stories and you are simply being with them, when's the last time, if ever, that anyone has sat attentively not leaving the room simply with them and their story that they tell? The very act of being present

Brenda (33:18.247)

Alex Kocher (33:39.000)

m hm

Curt Thompson (33:45.673)

That, in that kind of a faithful way, in and of itself, is part of the storytelling mechanism.

Curt Thompson (33:55.690)

If I have to talk to an audience that's not paying attention, it's gonna be a very, very different kind of conversation than if the audience is dialed in. We know this, which means even my ability to talk, my ability to name what I wanna do is deeply connected to who the other person is that's listening to me. The listener, in fact, is as much a part of the storytelling venture as is the storyteller. And so beauty becomes this thing that emerges first and foremost out of this presence

Brenda (34:00.487)

m m

Alex Kocher (34:04.240)

Brenda (34:04.307)

Brenda (34:09.147)

Alex Kocher (34:17.820)

Brenda (34:18.347)

Curt Thompson (34:25.470)

about and it's this beauty that we were destined before the foundation of the world to co-labor with God to create.

Alex Kocher (34:33.500)

m m m think that's everything i wanted you to say in five minutes but now what i hear you do because i've started our newest podcast season is you're bringing in a whole nother element that's rocking my world and that's wisdom because now you're leaving wisdom in to all of these themes of presence and my

Brenda (34:40.187)

uh uh

Curt Thompson (34:40.570)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Curt Thompson (34:55.769)

Hmm

Curt Thompson (35:02.190)

Mm, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (35:02.820)

body in a way that i'm serious the world's tilting for me as i'm listening to what you're saying about wisdom coming in that when my body comes in the room wisdom is coming in that does not compute with me

Curt Thompson (35:09.593)

Hmm. Hmm.

Brenda (35:17.487)

m m

Curt Thompson (35:17.790)

Right, yeah. Yeah, well, we haven't had much opportunity. We don't hear it preached from our pulpits. We don't, I mean, you know, if you go to a Greek Orthodox church, I don't know how many of you have Greek Orthodox churches in your neighborhood or your area, but if you do, and if you have the opportunity, I would simply invite you to go and be president one, because one of the things you learn very quickly about the Greek Orthodox tradition is that the sermon

Curt Thompson (35:47.750)

center of the world for a Sunday morning worship service, that the beauty of the Lord is, as it is ultimately found in the Eucharist. But it also means that the moment that you walk in the front door, you are simply overwhelmed with the beauty of the physical space.

Alex Kocher (35:53.960)

Curt Thompson (36:07.350)

God's presence, you were invited to encounter it with your body.

Alex Kocher (36:14.160)

Curt Thompson (36:15.530)

We like to say that the brain operates in such a way that first we sense, and only then do we make sense of what we sense. First I'm sensing, and then I'm making sense of what I sense. I sense with my right brain, and then I make sense with my left, and then I sense something out of what I've made sense of, and this thing just cycles around over and over and over again. And this is crucially important,

Alex Kocher (36:26.440)

Curt Thompson (36:45.470)

Because there is a way in which, you know, even when you look at the first page of the Bible and the progression of the created order, it all begins with sensations, sensations. Only when we get to mankind do we get to this thinking sentient being. We first have to encounter the world as it really is, and that includes our bodies.

Alex Kocher (37:05.000)

mhm

Curt Thompson (37:06.710)

And because we have not had a lot of practice paying attention to our bodies, but when or if we do, we are often doing so in a way that is exploitative. Then when that happens, the body is only further degraded, if you will. We shame it. We condemn it. We do things to the body without even knowing that we're doing that, which is where, you know, we get everything from eating behavior problems.

Brenda (37:11.287)

Alex Kocher (37:11.360)

Alex Kocher (37:17.280)

Brenda (37:17.607)

Alex Kocher (37:26.180)

yeah

Curt Thompson (37:36.870)

all the way to pornography, to sexual assault, all these kinds of things are ways in which we are expressing our total discomfort with our being embodied human beings. We don't know what to do with all of our anxieties that are wrapped up in this. And so if we come into a space in which we discover that actually God wants wisdom to come from this very space, that takes some getting

Alex Kocher (37:38.860)

Alex Kocher (37:50.080)

yeah

Alex Kocher (38:05.700)

m hm

Curt Thompson (38:07.150)

given that we've been so used to practicing doing horrible things to our bodies and to each other's bodies, that the whole notion that that's where wisdom emerges requires a bit of some meditation and reflection to kind of get our heads around that.

Alex Kocher (38:12.220)

Brenda (38:12.467)

Alex Kocher (38:25.200)

yeah

Alex Kocher (38:28.020)

well we're gonna turn this into my personal counseling session now so you'll just you'll just take a breath

Curt Thompson (38:32.295)

Ha ha!

Curt Thompson (38:34.970)

Thank you. Bye.

Alex Kocher (38:36.280)

because i've had a week of a flare a yojtyouyou can just talk to yourself so dr tompson and ah but i've had a week of a flare up twenty years of chronic pain and a really bad flare up this week and so what you're saying i mean deeply resonant brings me to weep because to endure chronic to endure physical pain

Curt Thompson (38:37.370)

Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Brenda (38:45.787)

i my gay thank you

Curt Thompson (38:54.870)

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Curt Thompson (39:03.152)

Hmm.

Curt Thompson (39:07.270)

Thank you. Thank you.

Alex Kocher (39:07.640)

i used to tell people that i had to build a wall in my brain against what my body was feeling and now i'm realizing that that itself has taken a tole on me and i'm having to get that in touch with my body and do that with kindness not do that exploitatively not do that with judgment and that journey alone that that one thing

Curt Thompson (39:15.322)

Mm-hmm.

Curt Thompson (39:21.495)

Mm-hmm

Curt Thompson (39:25.410)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Curt Thompson (39:29.070)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (39:36.220)

in has been one of the hardest things i've had to do over the last three years yeah

Curt Thompson (39:41.672)

Yeah, yeah, well first of all, I'm sorry that that's been the week, the 20 years you've had. Sorry about that.

Alex Kocher (39:47.540)

thank you

Brenda (39:47.747)

yeah

Alex Kocher (39:54.400)

Curt Thompson (39:59.110)

And you know this whole notion, this I mentioned to you, I think I mentioned to you that I've got a new book that's coming in August. That, oh, the book is, so the title of the book is The Deepest Place, and the subtitle is Suffering and the Formation of Hope.

Brenda (40:09.987)

Alex Kocher (40:10.400)

Brenda (40:12.227)

tell us more tell us about it

Alex Kocher (40:13.740)

Alex Kocher (40:20.860)

Alex Kocher (40:25.560)

Curt Thompson (40:28.370)

verses of Romans 5 with a nod to interpersonal neurobiology and attachment to other things that we pay attention to in our field. One of the things that we talk about in this whole, is this notion of how suffering, pain, whether it's psychological pain, whether it's physical pain, it is the degree to which we experience some.

kind, some sort of discomfort in our experience. And it can come in a range of different ways, levels of intensity. But what turns pain into suffering has everything to do with how we are responding to the pain.

Alex Kocher (41:01.240)

Brenda (41:01.467)

Alex Kocher (41:14.200)

m hm

Brenda (41:16.047)

Curt Thompson (41:17.310)

and how long we must endure the pain, and under what conditions we endure that pain. That all tends to shape in our minds the degree to which we would say, yes, I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering. I'm suffering.

Brenda (41:21.287)

Alex Kocher (41:32.720)

Brenda (41:32.967)

Curt Thompson (41:35.474)

And one of the things that the gospel points out is that to suffer is to be human is to suffer.

Alex Kocher (41:41.040)

yeah

Brenda (41:41.207)

Curt Thompson (41:43.110)

And some of our trouble has everything to do with the fact that we actually don't name the ways that we suffer. We've come up with all kinds of convenient ways of saying, well, that's something else, but it's not suffering. I mean, I know who people who suffer. I'm not suffering. That's not this. And so I'm going to do something else with this. And one of the ways that evil actually, I think, uses suffering to our disadvantage, first is by our refusing to name it for what it is,

Alex Kocher (41:50.580)

yeah

Alex Kocher (41:57.300)

m hm

Curt Thompson (42:12.890)

is. And one of the ways that our minds actually make suffering be what it is, has to do first of all with what we do with time. If you have low back pain and I say to you, you know, Alex, this is going to happen, this is going to be like this for the next six weeks and then it's going to be done. So the next six weeks are not going to be fun, you're not going to like the next six weeks.

Alex Kocher (42:13.400)

yeah

Curt Thompson (42:42.910)

point out there and like okay I can put up with something for six weeks. Six weeks comes, your pain is gone, and we don't think about that in terms of suffering because I have a time frame I can bump up against. If I were to tell you, Alex, this low back pain is with you forever. It's going to be with you until you're dead. Now you're going to like that even a lot less.

Brenda (42:43.987)

mhm

Alex Kocher (42:45.360)

Alex Kocher (42:53.760)

yeah

Brenda (43:04.887)

m hm

Alex Kocher (43:05.460)

Curt Thompson (43:07.110)

But it also gives you a timeframe. It's not a good timeframe. It's not the one that I want, but it is a timeframe that I know that for as long as I'm alive, so my mind is not working with some kind of expectation that it could be different. Now, I don't like that, but both of those scenarios, six weeks or indefinitely, both of those scenarios are much easier than the third possible scenario, which is me saying to you, I don't know how long this is gonna last.

Alex Kocher (43:09.020)

it does

Brenda (43:10.247)

Alex Kocher (43:15.540)

Brenda (43:17.347)

Alex Kocher (43:23.700)

right

Alex Kocher (43:35.540)

right

Curt Thompson (43:37.090)

I'm your doctor, we don't know how long. This could be six weeks, this could be six years, this could be six decades, we don't really know. Our mind has a very difficult time not being able to put time brackets on things. And when it comes to pain, that is one of the ways that we find ourselves in a place of suffering. But the other thing that our mind does that is even more crucial, has to do with our penchant for living our lives in isolation.

Brenda (43:40.847)

Alex Kocher (43:41.900)

m hm

Alex Kocher (43:49.820)

right

Alex Kocher (44:05.460)

Curt Thompson (44:06.470)

For indeed suffering is a function not just that I'm going to experience emotional or physical distress of a certain kind. It is that I'm going to experience it and there will be no way out and no one to be with me in it.

Brenda (44:23.487)

mhm

Alex Kocher (44:23.540)

Curt Thompson (44:27.210)

Job had friends who were like they need to be in one of your storytelling groups, Alex, because they don't know how to stay with Job. They're all about talking about Job's like what Job did, what Job didn't do. They got all kinds of answers for things, but they're not actually able to be present with Job. They're not actually able to show up and shut up. They can't keep, they can't help themselves.

Alex Kocher (44:33.540)

yeah

Brenda (44:33.687)

m m

Brenda (44:39.327)

yeah

Brenda (44:45.407)

Brenda (44:49.327)

Alex Kocher (44:51.700)

m m

Brenda (44:52.467)

h m

Curt Thompson (44:56.310)

And there is this sense in which even when God shows up at the end, God doesn't give any explanation for Job's suffering. But what he does say to Job ultimately is, I am your keep.

Alex Kocher (45:07.460)

Curt Thompson (45:08.890)

and I am with you. It is the attunement to me that mitigates our suffering. It does not eliminate it, but it does change the nature of how that happens. And this gets right back to the heart of what your ministry is about, what you all are talking about. This whole notion about being with people, about giving people an opportunity. So that our suffering, which is real, and which we burn energy

Alex Kocher (45:27.860)

Curt Thompson (45:38.790)

because it's not something, because I wasn't in a concentration camp, because I didn't have my legs amputated, because I, all the things, because that's not me, that I don't suffer, that's horse hooey.

Alex Kocher (45:39.160)

Alex Kocher (45:52.960)

Brenda (45:53.147)

h m

Curt Thompson (45:55.370)

as we name this in the course of telling our story.

Curt Thompson (46:00.690)

We no longer have to burn all the energy in containing it. And that energy is now available for me to create beauty and goodness in the world, even through our suffering. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Alex Kocher (46:05.860)

Alex Kocher (46:14.800)

yeah

Brenda (46:16.347)

yeah

Alex Kocher (46:17.120)

yeah

Curt Thompson (46:17.770)

And this is one of the ways in which, as Paul writes about it, the suffering, and we read about it in the Hebrews, suffering itself becomes a transformational force that God uses to transform everything about us, including the way we interpret what the suffering was in the first place.

Brenda (46:30.387)

m hm

Alex Kocher (46:36.480)

yeah yeah

Brenda (46:36.927)

yeah

Brenda (46:39.687)

wow this has been so good thank you so much i know we're going a have to wrap up our time together i think we could just keep going and alex has more personal counseling questions for you i'm going to kut it off at this point did this number make an appointment alex you know but dr thompson we you know we know you have this spoken on christian anthropology and also just your work with inter personal neuro biology and we are so thankful i really hope and pray

Curt Thompson (46:48.670)

Ha ha.

Alex Kocher (46:49.740)

lutely she's cutting me off

Curt Thompson (46:55.511)

Ha ha!

Brenda (47:09.587)

that more men and women will look to you and say hey i want to get into that field as well to understand people from a biblical world view to understand the body from a biblical world view and to make greater sense of not only our own lives and stories but again than that just pushes us to the glory and greatness of our god as well and so this has just been a wonderful time with you we're going to put in our show notes all your books and let people know that i know that you've got

Curt Thompson (47:15.570)

Thank you. Bye.

Curt Thompson (47:18.470)

Hmm.

Curt Thompson (47:28.744)

Yeah.

Curt Thompson (47:33.573)

Mmm, thank you.

Curt Thompson (47:37.072)

Oh, lovely.

Brenda (47:39.627)

website will point people to you got youtubevideos there great you've even got some really short ones in there that are like three to six minutes that are just great just to go on you of course got your being known podcast and and maybe some other things as well but maybe that because people started to know where to find you or listeners we would just encourage them to go find you to follow you because this is a field as you said that is dynamic it's growing the understanding is growing the applications are growing and

Curt Thompson (47:48.991)

Hmm.

Curt Thompson (47:59.735)

Hmm. Hmm.

Curt Thompson (48:06.552)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brenda (48:09.607)

it's beautiful as we get to follow this out in our lifetime and then to see you one day pass it on with the work you're doing to somebody else to build on it it's just beautiful and we're just so thankful for you we bless god for you today

Alex Kocher (48:09.760)

Curt Thompson (48:13.012)

Mm-hmm

Curt Thompson (48:15.390)

Hmm, hmm, hmm, yeah. Hmm.

Curt Thompson (48:21.090)

Well, Brenda and Alex, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure and I'm, as we said at the top of our time, it's just always an honor to be in a room with people who know that it's not easy to follow Jesus, but are gonna continue to do that and to support the work that other people are doing as well to make that happen.

Alex Kocher (48:21.560)

Alex Kocher (48:38.640)

thank you

Brenda (48:38.807)

great thanks so much

Curt Thompson (48:40.470)

Thank you.