S3Bonus Marty Solomon — Known Ministries

Season 3 Bonus: Marty Solomon

Brenda (00:01.033)

well alex we are so excited and honored and privileged to have our first celebrity guest on to our podcast though seriously we are so excited to have marti solomon join us for this edition of our podcast marty's a theologian and he's also the president and director of discipleship for impact campus ministries and i know him as many other people do as the creator and executive producer of the bema pi

Alex Kocher (00:07.971)

Ha ha ha ha.

Brenda (00:30.933)

cast i was introduced to marty through my brother in law who said i listened to this guy and he is so amazing and is really bringing the scriptures to life in a whole new way after walking with jesus a long time and i think you should listen to him and so i did and not only was i impacted and do i consider martia mentor of my now but also my my israel tour rabbi because i had the distinct privilege of going to israel and being on his tour this past summer and

Alex Kocher (00:55.778)

Hehehehehehe

Brenda (01:01.113)

marty i just want you to know that i do bless god for you m definitely being a part of your work god has used you to give me a greater love for the text i've always love the scriptures but really and truly in this season of my life is just um just bursting forth with so much joy about the text of scripture and m and then just also i think just a greater understanding of who god is the goodness of god i love the way you talk about the goodness of god and and also just what christ has done for me and the prem

of christ in this whole story and in everything we do so we just want to thank you so much for coming on our podcasttoday

Alex Kocher (01:37.650)

Thank you. Thank you.

Marty Solomon (01:39.096)

yeah absolutely thanks for letting me be hear those very kind words i can remember being in your shoes having my own teacher is going on my own first is real tour and i know how that deeply shaped and impacted me so if that's come full circle in any way and now that's just beautiful so that's wonderful i remember what it means to say those things that you just shared so thank you

Alex Kocher (01:57.382)

Mmm.

Brenda (02:02.033)

yes of course well i was so impacted by the trip that when we got back i immediately came back and said we need to change our logo because i discovered something in israel that i didn't know and it fits with our ministry and that's this idea of the tamerastry and i thought maybe instead of me explaining what it is we've got you the tour guide on the show can you tell us what the significance of the tamerastry is and yeah because it just really meant a lot to me and i feel like it fits with our ministry really well

Alex Kocher (02:02.212)

Hmm

Alex Kocher (02:20.850)

Ha ha ha!

Marty Solomon (02:29.816)

yeah one of the one of the more fun studies that i feel like we get to do on the trip or in the podcast is look at the desert trees in the scriptures these different trees mean different things to the people in the land of the bible one of them is the tamarisk tree and the cameras tree as a desert tree but it's one that requires some cultivation that requires some work and it's shade if i understand it right i'm no botanist but if i understand it quickly it

Brenda (02:59.053)

m m

Marty Solomon (02:59.696)

takes salt out of the air and it enables it to emit more moisture in its shade its shade is about you know fifteen percent cooler than just standard shade in the desert which is beautiful but the big the big rabinical point that they make is that a tamers tree takes at least at least forty more like sixty to eighty years to truly hit its full maturity so you don't ever plant a tamarisk tree for yourself you plant a tamers tree and you're going to do the work

cultivating it for your future for your kids and your grand kids they are the ones that are going to sit in the shade of the tamarisk tree you never plan a tamnrisktre for yourself and so there's a rebinical teaching out there of how many tamarisk trees did you plant today how many things did you do today that have very little impact for you but are going to have more eternal rings and there's the obscure little verse in genesis where we're told that abraham goes and i believe it shows up right after he berries sar

ah or right before he buries sarah but somewhere in genesis and he shows up and it says he plants a tamarisk tree and it's just this random verse you read over it but what you don't pick up is that he's making a statement about what he believes about what god's going to do with his promise because if he's going to the work of planning a cameras tree he's saying i'm going to be here for my kids are going to be here my grand kids are going to be here and it's just a beautiful one of the most beautiful obscure versus in in tora

Alex Kocher (04:24.450)

Thank you. Thank you.

Alex Kocher (04:29.070)

Hmm.

Brenda (04:29.613)

yeah and i just think for our ministry we're so about you know high lighting god's covenant faithfulness which is the representation of this tree but also the way god provides shade for us in the desert and then the way we want to turn around and be shade and i love the fact that it is there's more shade in the camera tree because i think there's a lot of shade out there but because we have the scriptures and the holy spirit and the community of christ we just have an opportunity to really provide the best and most shade for people

Marty Solomon (04:58.618)

yeah it's beautiful

Alex Kocher (04:58.851)

Mmm, yeah, I love that. Ma, yeah. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha.

Brenda (05:01.554)

so i be looking for our new logo that's coming

Marty Solomon (05:03.816)

uh uh

Alex Kocher (05:07.570)

My introduction to Marty I think came through you Brenda. And I was thinking this morning that for the first several weeks that I listened to Marty, I quoted him so often that I began to call him my rabbi and everyone rolled their eyes and laughed at me. But I have to tell you Marty that the most straight up from your, I think your first episode of your first season,

Brenda (05:22.653)

mah

Alex Kocher (05:36.990)

talk about the God who says enough? Is that your first episode?

Brenda (05:41.473)

a second yeah

Marty Solomon (05:41.717)

the guess says enough is episode two yep yep

Alex Kocher (05:43.950)

Two, okay. And I was really wrestling with the Lord about rest. And it is the first time it settled into my being of God created us for rest before the fall. And that the rhythm of creation was centered around rest. And it was like, it was almost like, okay, Lord, I'm going to yield. Like I am going to

Brenda (06:11.453)

uh uh

Alex Kocher (06:14.230)

in to what you tell me I need and who you created me to be. I'm finite, I'm frail, and I'm fragile, and I am going to learn rest. And so that really did come from your podcast.

Marty Solomon (06:26.876)

yeah that's beautiful really was a very large theme in my own learning and here where i felt like i mean it was other teachers that taught me that it's like well if this story starts here like this isn't a side and this kind of helps us understand why in the jewish story they're so obsessed with sabbath so much so that they almost over obsess and jesus is almost critiquing their obsession with the application of but but what we miss is we just write off sabbath and we completely miss

Alex Kocher (06:40.050)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (06:46.174)

Mm-hmm

Marty Solomon (06:56.756)

we over correct and miss sabbath all together the reason they're so obsessed with it is this is where the story begins this is genesis one is genesis two and three like the story is trying to insist that if you don't have a fundamental trust in the goodness of creation and your place within it you're just going to keep you're going to keep operating out of insecurity and fear and that's just going to keep leading to unbelievably destructive things in your life and the lives

Brenda (06:58.784)

Alex Kocher (07:03.892)

Mm-hmm.

Marty Solomon (07:26.796)

everybody around you and it's pretty pretty central

Alex Kocher (07:28.171)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (07:30.730)

Yeah, yeah, it's a it is a hard and good. It's been a hard and good for me to lean into rest. Yeah. So so much of what we talk about here on our podcast, Marty, is equipping people to one another. We want to give people tools. We want to give people frameworks for how to engage just in every day, life on life, personal ministry. And, and then so much what you do is

Marty Solomon (07:37.404)

yeah

Alex Kocher (08:01.290)

with how to see the way that Jesus did this, how to look at the text and ask questions, but also to connect to what Jesus did in his everyday ministry. What do you... this kind of feels like a vague question, but what do you see the intersection of Jesus's personal ministry and our everyday personal ministry?

Marty Solomon (08:26.536)

well jesus ultimately is going to take everything that matters whether it's the bible itself the truth of the bible what what god desires for us the kingdom whatever thing we want to talk about jesus is going to take any of it and all of it and he's going to embody it for us like there's no better like he's the model he's the thing to imitate but he's also the his life is the interpretation of all this stuff that matters so

Alex Kocher (08:56.142)

Mm.

Marty Solomon (08:56.896)

when i can when i'm trying to wrestle with what does it what does god really desire for me and what does it look like lived out in flesh jesus is the answer to that like the life of jesus is the answer that the teachings of jesus and that's why some of this other stuff matters we talk about eastern versus western perspectives and you know bringing a more complete understanding of the world of jesus because if jesus is my ultimate model is the absolute incarnation of all the stuff we're looking for colossians is going to say

everything in heaven and on earth is held together it's all held together in christ it was made through christ it was made for christ if he's that central then understanding his rabinical lessons understanding his assumptions that he brings that his audience um is when his audience is making assumptions understanding that conversation between jesus and his disciples between jesus and his audience is really key to me getting jesus right which is of paramount

Alex Kocher (09:42.636)

Mm-hmm

Marty Solomon (09:56.496)

importance if he's if he's the if he's the incarnation of everything that i'm looking for if he's the model and and the goal and everything that you know embodies what i want to be in my own ministry i just want to be able to understand what he's saying accurately

Alex Kocher (10:13.275)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (10:15.673)

for me that's really been key in listening to your podcast and traveling with you is i don't think as long as i've been a christian and even though i know jesus you know is a jew just the jewish ness of the scriptures and really becoming to recognize particularly the old testament the sweetness of the old testament to understand the new testament and to even understand jesus himself and his ministry and it just seems like that's really been lost in a lot of our conversation with evangelical

circles or non jewish circles as well um and i love uh yeah just i think that what you're doing is i think in your book which we'll talk more about which i've already reading just this idea of not it's a different story not that it's it's any different than what i've learned it's just expanding so much on what i've learned and giving my understanding more color and more depth and breadth and that has been so exciting for

maybe particularly because i have been studying the scriptures for a long time and just to see them come alive in a in a fresh way let's say it that way so one of the things marty i love is you know you talk about we really can't find our way if we don't understand the plot of the story and i love the way you describe plot and i'd love for you to do that for our listeners like what is the plot of the story and why is it so important to us particularly when we think about this idea of having meaningful conversations meeting people were there

hurting

Marty Solomon (11:47.296)

yeah so and this kind of goes back to the observation that alex made just a moment ago like where the story begins is probably one of the most important things about understanding the plot of the story like if you start the story too late the plot of the story changes drastically and and so we do have this this narrative this ark this plot of the story and it begins in genesis one with a good creation and i heard i had a teacher went to explain christiani likes to kind of

skip the first couple chapteresn't get right to the fall because that's where every thing kind of falls apart and i had a teacher yeah absolutely absolutely when you think about conversational counseling like what could be more relevant and i had a teacher once say um you know when you start the story late it's about the removal of sin but if you start the story early it's about the restoration of shalom if you start the story late it's about what i'm not but if you start the story ear

Brenda (12:20.893)

yes yes that's our experience

Alex Kocher (12:22.053)

Yes.

Alex Kocher (12:25.032)

That is.

Alex Kocher (12:38.870)

Yes.

Brenda (12:41.676)

yes

Brenda (12:46.097)

yes

Marty Solomon (12:47.116)

it's about what i am um if you start the story late it's about like it becomes disembodied evacuation like some glad morning when this life is or i'm going to get out of here but if you start the story early it's about physical participation like we're being invited to partner in something because the narrative arcot story is that there's a good creation that has been torn asunder it's been there's something straight that's been made crooked and god his god is in the work

Brenda (12:59.432)

Alex Kocher (13:04.192)

Mm.

Marty Solomon (13:17.176)

of making it straight again that's what god is doing and where were swept up so there's this arc of god restoring this broken world and for whatever reason god is looking for partners in that pursuit and i don't know why god god just doesn't do it on his own in the back room i think it's because there's something redemptive in getting us involved it wasn't his mess it's our mess and i think even as parents i think we have this understanding of this like if our

Alex Kocher (13:40.350)

Mm-hmm.

Marty Solomon (13:47.096)

it's made a mess up something and we could just fix it i don't think we as parents just snap our fingers and fix it i think we bring the we bring our children into that process because there's something about their own redemption wrapped up in the hey let's go clean this up together i could just make this go away but you wouldn't actually be any more redeemed because of that and so i've wondered if at times that's what god is up to in this restoration work is like let me bring all of you along

Alex Kocher (13:57.394)

Mm-hmm

Alex Kocher (14:04.753)

Mm-hmm.

Marty Solomon (14:17.636)

because this is actually how you get back to the garden to speak poetically like this is how we're goin to get back by taking you on the journey to get back there with me and so those are some of the things i understand because if i see that redemptive work as the arc of the story and that just radically changes what i'm the place that i find myself in that story as a partner with god as somebody to contribute all those things

Alex Kocher (14:21.650)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (14:46.270)

I just love that I love the way this ties together because I have described counseling in the past as knowing your story well and knowing where you fit in God's story and that a good counselor is just someone who comes alongside someone and shows them how they fit in God's story by really first orienting to their own story. And sometimes they get an eminidical circles. We get a little uncomfortable with that. Like, what do you, what do you mean?

Alex Kocher (15:16.630)

your story. Only God's story matters. But it does matter for us to know our story. It does matter for us to know where we started. It does matter for us to understand particularly how we were created, how the fall has affected us in the particular. Because we can't really truly find our place in God's story if we don't understand our own story also.

Brenda (15:23.257)

yes

Marty Solomon (15:41.636)

yeah i think we undervalue the relational component of this god relationship we have i think we always make god something and the the desire is beautiful like we're trying to make god something holy in other and and that's true that's not wrong but the scriptures also keep talking about god as a as a groom and where his bride as a father and where his children these are intimate relationships and like when you think about those relationships in your own life the of course the other

Alex Kocher (15:48.175)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (15:56.721)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (16:01.750)

Thank you. Thank you.

Marty Solomon (16:11.576)

it matters of course i want my you know the husband is not the only one like the husband longs for the bride to know who she is and to thrive and to flourish and to have her place we as parents we long for our children we would gladly step into the background not because we want we're in the background or because we're less important but because the other person in the relationship is what we love and so of course god desires that for us and i think sometime

Alex Kocher (16:40.854)

Mm-hmm.

Marty Solomon (16:41.516)

we miss the really simple things because our theology makes us think that you know something else is required but cole this stuff is so beautiful not easy just beautiful not easy but simple but not easy so yeah absolutely

Alex Kocher (16:50.641)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (16:56.671)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (16:58.853)

yeah i wish i'd have had this teaching earlier i feel like i've spent most of my christian life starting with genesis three at the fall i think it would have changed the way i parented and i remember one of the things that you said marty is just that with every person and if i miss quoted you at some point re direct me but i believe this is what i heard anyhow okay good good god but what i heard you say was that you know with every person you meet you assume that god is working and i think that's so beautiful

Alex Kocher (17:05.570)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (17:10.375)

Mm-hmm

Marty Solomon (17:16.638)

oh i'll fix it

Alex Kocher (17:17.850)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Brenda (17:28.573)

i think it changes the way we approach people instead of you know of course is you know our ultimate problem at separates us from god but just to look at people and to encourage them and my husband last week i had the opportunity to run into a young man he was twenty three years old probably home homeless and presumably probably doing drugs and he was weeping and paul stopped and had a conversation with him and you're teaching was so powerful paul said i see

see god in you i see the image of god in you you are you are loved you know god god wants something better for you and i just hough was so beautiful it was just such a practical outworking i think of just that teaching that he could look on and see this this young man so broken and yet see that god god loves you and he's working and he and he wants you to come to him and yeah i just wish that i had known i wish i had locked into that earlier in a lot of way

Marty Solomon (18:29.716)

yeah it's the intersection that alex was talking about earlier because were i mean who is it that models that for us so beautifully i mean it's jesus is jesus seeing the leper it's jesus you know looking for the outcast embracing the untouchable it's jesus seeing the unclean woman with an issue of bleeding for twelve it's i mean these are that's that's the intersection of because it's part of us that's like am i doing that right like imagine a world without jesus

Brenda (18:37.900)

yeah

Alex Kocher (18:39.770)

Mm-hmm

Brenda (18:56.541)

yeah

Marty Solomon (18:59.656)

all these laws and profits and scriptures and whatever like imagine trying to go am i doing this right because there's laws that tell me not to touch the leper but there's also laws that tell me to care for people am i doing this right am i doing this right the intersection of jesus is yes because he came and he was like this this is what looks like this find find the outcast see the image of god and all people realize that the least of these is actually me um you know yes yes yes yes yes yes that's the intersection that makes it all

Alex Kocher (19:21.316)

Yeah.

Brenda (19:27.795)

yeah hm

Alex Kocher (19:28.050)

Thank you. Thank you.

Marty Solomon (19:29.736)

so brings clarity brings some level of at least for jesus followers some level of certainty that this is indeed what the gospel looks like

Alex Kocher (19:32.593)

Mm-hmm

Brenda (19:39.739)

yeah

Alex Kocher (19:39.983)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (19:42.573)

well i think just another way that i've liked hearing you express this idea of loving god and loving our neighbor and what it looks like is the ideas righteousness and justice i think the way we tend to think about that are very different than how you teach what they really are and i think it very much plays into what we're trying to encourage people to know for themselves and to m you know talk to other people about and enter into

their lives and their stories so can you explain a little bit about those concepts

Marty Solomon (20:17.696)

yeah absolutely so we'll start by just affirming like why these things are so important we've talked about this like this partnership with god one of the first partners we run into in scripture is abraham it's in genesis chapter eighteen right right around the story of solomon gamora and god shows up and one of the things that god says to himself about abraham as i've got to i've got to discuss this with abraham because and he says because why does he have to why has he chosen abraham why

they in this relationship why does he have to talk to him because he has made his life about righteousness and justice that is what abraham walks and that's what he pursues and that's why this relationship is so important to jesus or the sums that tell us that righteousness and justice are the foundation of god's throne like those those are pretty big statements so these ideas of righteousness and justice are a pretty big deal now i think we hear the term righteousness

we always think of like doing right things righteousness well that's right living and that's not necessarily incorrect but it is void of the original context because righteousness is a zedica in the hebrew refers to the state of being in right relationship the word doesn't speak of things that we do it speaks of it's a relational term and it might not be a relationship between persons it might be the relationship of

Brenda (21:21.853)

m hm

Marty Solomon (21:47.956)

you know again something being straight righteousness speaks of straightness um of truth of something being not crooked but but straight and rightandshup so the jews talk about a triangle between god and us and and others there are these relationships modern judaism has made it a square where creation becomes so there's god and creation and us and others and all of these are relationships so here's a relationship between me and god

there's a relationship between me and other people there's a relationship between me and creation and all these things there's a right relationship that's intended but this right relationship gets crooked gets twisted gets broken the relationship between me and god gets broken the relationship between me and creation gets broken the relationship between me and other people gets crooked and twisted so then you have the work of justice or what the hebrew calls mish pot and mishpotliterally speaks of the place of judgment

the place of shaft the place of making declaring straightness so when whenever righteousness has been disrupted justice makes it right again so justice in the hebrew mind is restorative because it's restoring zedicait's restoring right relationship and so this is why righteous and justice are the foundation of god's throne in this narrative arc we were just talking about if god is restoring everything it's because zedeca matters

Brenda (22:59.332)

Marty Solomon (23:18.676)

and so he's about the work of mishap because zedeca has been broken why does he partner with abraham because because abraham is pursuing zedeca and mishpop he wants to have right relationships with god and with other people and when those are and when those are disrupted what does he do in the story of sodom gamora he stands on the hillside and he pleads their case he says you can't destroy them you can't what if there's what if there's forty what if there's thirty twenty

at ten like he just keeps bartering god down because he's like we have to put the world together not tear it apart so this is who abraham as a data and mish pot and and that's the foundation of god's throne and the foundation of the relationship that he calls us to and what we see modeled in jesus's ministry as well

Alex Kocher (24:09.550)

So Marty, the reason I love this so much is because it ties into the last three years I've spent studying with the Allender Center. I'm studying what's called narrative focused trauma care. And Dan Allender, part of his entire paradigm of teaching is understanding the widow, the orphan and the stranger. And so when I hear you talk, it's just like everything is coming together because to partner

Brenda (24:36.353)

uh uh

Alex Kocher (24:39.871)

and justice means we have to reckon with the widow, the orphan, and the stranger.

Marty Solomon (24:45.636)

goodness yeah what a great resource to the lender center but yeah i mean if there are strangers foreigners orphans widows it means there is that there's been a disruption in that beautiful wholeness in that shalom it means that something is out of whack and so god does ask us beg us plead with us to watch out for those people so that we can be a part of that mish pot i mean it's just central to and one of the things that i love about how that shows up in the story

Alex Kocher (24:48.552)

Yes.

Marty Solomon (25:15.516)

the moment i remember the alien the orphan the widow the moment i remember the foreigner and the fatherless and the widow i then remember who i am and where i came from which only causes me to notice those when you start to widen this gap between who i am and who they are you know those people see what paul did sorry i don't know if i'm supposed to say paul's name what brenda's husband did on the with that man the other day is he he a

Brenda (25:26.326)

Brenda (25:33.932)

Alex Kocher (25:41.050)

Thank you. Bye.

Brenda (25:41.532)

Marty Solomon (25:45.516)

orated the gap between his humanity and this other man's humanity he because he saw something see the more you let that gap widen and widen the more the zedica is broken the more the injustice but when you start to break down that gap all all you are is reminded about what's most true about yourself and then you see the beautiful parts about yourself and all those people on the other side of the gap sol this call to remember the marginal lie

Alex Kocher (25:47.113)

Yeah.

Marty Solomon (26:15.756)

the oppressed this call to remember the fatherless the widow the foreigner is really like this our own redemption and salvation gets wrapped up in it because it's it's just built in reminder about who we are at our core as well

Alex Kocher (26:28.455)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (26:33.570)

Yes, exactly. That's it. It is who we are at our core. And so what Dan Allender would say is, you have to know your own widow, orphan, and stranger story. Because until you grieve those parts of you, you cannot enter in with the widow, orphan, and the stranger in an authentic, truly loving way. You will further marginalize them. You will exploit even other people because

Brenda (26:44.353)

m hm

Brenda (26:55.119)

yeah

Alex Kocher (27:03.571)

stir to their grief.

Marty Solomon (27:05.616)

this is one of the most repeated statement in tora whenever god gives a whole list of commands and he always ends it with remember you were slaves in egypt that is why i command you to do this he says over and over and over and over again remember where you came from because this was your story you have to you have to remember that you have processed this you've started here don't ever forget where you start because then you can help everybody else that's in that same place so i mean that is so and we always think of levidicas as like

Alex Kocher (27:13.731)

Yeah.

Marty Solomon (27:35.316)

most barbaric like law written and yet it's full of these statements that are really grounded in what we would call like really healthy psychology like stuff that we would teach and yet they're in this book from thousands of years ago and absolutely one hundred percent love it

Alex Kocher (27:46.750)

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Alex Kocher (27:51.755)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (27:53.970)

Yeah, I think you've just really, truly given us a theology of understanding our past right there because when Brendan and I started in biblical counseling, there really was a move away from understanding your past. All that mattered was now your personal righteousness and holiness, not even righteous, your personal holiness in the now. And I had to begin to develop a theology for understanding my past. And that's what you just gave us. Mm-hmm.

Brenda (28:00.086)

Marty Solomon (28:10.481)

yep

Marty Solomon (28:13.021)

yep

Brenda (28:19.153)

m hm

Marty Solomon (28:19.176)

absolutely yeah and it's that beautiful both in like you can either dwell there or you can ignore it but really being able to put it in its proper place in healthy ways is everything absolutely

Alex Kocher (28:30.151)

Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Brenda (28:32.473)

yeah i just i want also go back to the story about paul that was so just sweet to me this whole idea of remembering because of course paul was moved to compassion and he went on to help this young man in some ways at a cost to himself but every time he's repeated the story and he's told me and told our children and he has just gotten so teeryied right and has just been so moved and it's exactly what you're saying i think there is such a sense of having compassion for the young man but also seeing humanity and understanding

s own neediness and m and the love of god for him and christ like what has god done for me and in christ so let's let's beautiful thank you so much um well i've heard you talk about four vital pillars of the faith and i thought this would be just i just love how you talk about all of these and so i wanted to spend some time because you clearly the first one is the text you have a love for the text

and and love to hear in your words why the text is so vital for the faith

Marty Solomon (29:39.536)

yeah you could probably talk about it a few different ways but i think the reason why text and i love to start there because text is where the power is going to lie it's what it's what's going to empower um my relationship my walk my faith like we would say the holy spirit and i would totally agree with that and i don't want to make the text like just bible study like i'm talking about something far bigger than that but it's paul an versions that says you know make sure

take up the sword of the spirit which is the word of god so there is an intimate relationship between the word of god and how the holy spirit wants to work in us and through us and so to make sure that we i mean one of the things that i learned in israel years ago and i hope i passed it on to you as well brenda was these people knew their bibles far more than like take the average joe and they would know their bible more than the four of us put together here on this podcast like they just

Brenda (30:30.054)

yes

Brenda (30:37.953)

uh huh

Marty Solomon (30:39.336)

he had the bible in them they didn't have a bible app they didn't have seventeen bibles at their home they dn't have a printing press if they were going to have the bible they had to have it in them literally in their heart in their mind in their community they had to have the bible living and active in their midst and and what that did was cept so so if god's word never returns void which is isaiah chapter fifty five if if if my word goes not my word but god god

says an isaiah if my word goes forth from my mouth that does not return to me empty it always accomplish is the purpose and the desire for which i sent it if that's true then having god's word in us is going to be the thing that empowers it turns the holy spirit loose to work in our lives to have the text come out of use to send and it'll never be our power it will be god's power but we'll have we'll have well opened the doors for that to work because we've taken the time to get the text inside of us so

Alex Kocher (31:25.094)

Hmm.

Marty Solomon (31:39.502)

yeah

Brenda (31:40.773)

well one of the things that happened as a result of israel is paul and my sister and my brother in law and i were really challenged by you to start back with scripture memory um and you said two things on that trip that were really powerful to me one is is it was enough to memorize it i didn't have to continue to review all the verses because i think over time that's what i kind of stopped somewhere along the line going is hard enough for me to memorize less have to go back and do all the review and you were like memorize it is the holy spirit's job to remind you of it and then you tell me it was

Marty Solomon (31:49.785)

yep

Marty Solomon (31:58.016)

uh huh

Alex Kocher (31:58.390)

Ha ha ha.

Marty Solomon (32:03.804)

yep

Marty Solomon (32:05.821)

yep

Marty Solomon (32:09.044)

yep

Brenda (32:10.673)

erfectly okay to memorize the n i v by the way which i was really happy because that's you know that's the bible i love but so it was really sweet and we're still doing it i think the holidays we kind of got off and now and we've had some grand babies come we're trying to get back on track but you've got these four people in their fifties and sixties sitting around a kitchen table doing our scripture memory for one another and so i really thank you for that i've just asked the team i work with to help me help me accountable we're going to start kind of a group

Alex Kocher (32:13.550)

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Brenda (32:40.753)

your memory together to hold one another accountable so thank you for that i really appreciate preciate that and i think on our trip on your podcast the word for meditating this idea of as you like to say and you say it very the text but just this idea of meditating on the text and really digesting it in jesting it it's just been so good and i just appreciate your influence there and if we're going to trust the story i think it's one of the things you say in episode one

Marty Solomon (32:52.198)

yep yep

Alex Kocher (32:54.704)

Hmm.

Marty Solomon (32:58.042)

yeah

Alex Kocher (33:01.801)

Hmm

Marty Solomon (33:05.101)

yeah

Brenda (33:10.833)

it was one of the takeaways i trust the story you can't trust a story you don't know and you can't trust a person you don't know and the stories about the person of jesus and that actually became something a lot of my friends that i would say as we would be talking about our problems would be like trust the story are we trusting the story and that just kind of became a way to encourage one another and just a reminder like there's a story here that can be trusted

Alex Kocher (33:15.550)

Thank you. Thank you.

Alex Kocher (33:26.050)

Hmm. Hmm. ..

Marty Solomon (33:33.817)

yeah absolutely yep

Marty Solomon (33:37.957)

uh yeah and did you want me to go through those other three pillars real quick

Brenda (33:40.713)

yeah yes let's talk about radical community this is community is a big thing that alex and i talk about and in fact we would say that as men and women come to us one of the biggest issues we see is that people are isolated they're not in community even if they're reading their bibles and praying they are not connected to authentic community and we call we call the holy spirit the word of god and the body of christ are super powers and so you basically cut off one third of your super powers and that is really key so tell us what radical

Alex Kocher (33:53.650)

I don't know.

Marty Solomon (33:55.080)

oh yeah

Marty Solomon (34:05.501)

yep

Brenda (34:10.393)

community means to you

Marty Solomon (34:12.376)

yeah one so of these four pillars at the first one is text the second one is that you can't do that in a vacuum like you have to do that in the midst of relationships and the relationships that we see in the new testament community aren't just friendships they're not just but these are this is radical fellowship with people you don't agree with that's what gave the new testament community its power that's where their gospel head teeth was because you had a person on two opposite ends of a social political spectrum or two different tribes

Alex Kocher (34:31.070)

Hmm.

Brenda (34:33.832)

Marty Solomon (34:42.176)

camps of paradymes how to see the world and yet they were coming together to break bread and this identity in christ transcended these other tribal vocational identity s i mean paul says there's no junior greek slave nor free male nor female man all throughout paul's writing to all throughout the gospel jesus is prayer for unity in john seventeen if we have this radical fellowship amongst our amongst our diversity that's how the world is going to know that this is really true

god and i think so so often we try to pursue uniformity rather than unity unity assumes diversity or it's not unity at all its uniformity and that's the antithesis of unity so unity is having this fellowship despite the diversity that is amongst us and it transcends that it maintains it protects the diversity it doesn't try to wipe it away or obliterate it and actually honors the diversity and transcends it to make

Alex Kocher (35:18.610)

Yes.

Brenda (35:23.146)

Marty Solomon (35:42.336)

uh that's the that's the gospel centered community so when we say radical fellowship that's my earliest years my students came out of my ministry thinking friendships i need friendships which is true like loneliness just kills us but like literally but i was talking about something even beyond just friendships and intimate relationships about radical fellowship with people that see the world differently than i do

Brenda (35:42.532)

Alex Kocher (35:52.891)

Hmm.

Alex Kocher (36:08.672)

Mmm, it's really good.

Brenda (36:08.813)

it's the sharpening that needs to take place we love to live in our echo chambers for sure and be comfortable there well what about your idea of discipleship because that's the third pillar

Marty Solomon (36:11.397)

yeah yeah yeah

Marty Solomon (36:19.176)

yep discipleship was and i've had the hardest time trying to apply discipleship in our world because i came out of my first trips and i was just like i was i was a little overdone on this i was a little over zealous and there space to be a little over zealous but but what i saw in the rabinical world was discipleship wasn't all day every day twenty four seven three hundred and sixty five days a week you dropped your nets and you left with jesus and you we don't know if they went home for the next three years

like they gave everything to follow a rabbi to do everything that jesus did that was discipleship discipleship was not seven a m at starbuck's on thursday morning not that that's a bad thing i wouldn't want us to stop meeting at starbuck's on thursday mornings at seven a m but that's what we always called discipleship growing up and we would meet together and we would tell each other to study their bibles and we would ask each other their per request which is beautiful is beautiful don't i don't want to stop doing that but discipleship was like

Alex Kocher (36:59.314)

Mm-hmm

Marty Solomon (37:19.576)

come follow me let's do life together let's eat together let's walk together let's travel together and part of what i got into campus ministry was to do that and i realized that that's where all the good stuff happened not in the lessons not in the but when we were walking on campus for forty minutes every morning that's where we talked about girl friends and home work and career decisions and and all of a sudden we were applying that's where discipleship took place and so i like to incur

just to think deeper and harder about what are those relationships that transcend one hour a week what are the relationships where you are literally meant to ing somebody saying follow me as i follow jesus is there anybody behind you because i promise you there are people behind you there's always people in front of you and there are always people behind you so are you discipling anybody intentionally beyond just a weekly meeting are we do we have relationships that that transcend this that's the discipleship

Alex Kocher (37:56.150)

Thank you. Thank you.

Alex Kocher (38:08.994)

Mm-hmm.

Marty Solomon (38:18.978)

i do

Alex Kocher (38:19.690)

Mm-hmm. It's really good.

Brenda (38:20.313)

that's so good well the final one has to do with wrestling and this is one of my favorite ones that you talk about because i've gained a lot of freedom from you in this area in my own christian walk

Marty Solomon (38:34.396)

yeah i mean it's and it's the thing that our modern western world is going to bristle against and struggle with the most which is really kind of the the essence that even drove me to write this book recently but questions like wrestling the gray the complexity the new once we have for almost a hundred years now in christianity we have worked very very hard to make sure our posture as a posture of certainty like always be ready to explain it

Alex Kocher (38:40.291)

Hmm

Alex Kocher (38:52.450)

Thank you. Thank you.

Marty Solomon (39:04.236)

thing to prove everything apologetics there's a place for all of that but it has done something to our posture which is i know and i am right and the problem is that we all know how we don't know we all know that we don't know we all know that there are questions we all know that there are we wrestle with this stuff we all so it's all kind of a facade and it was never the facade that god wanted us to like we somehow postured our

Alex Kocher (39:05.112)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (39:13.132)

Yes.

Alex Kocher (39:29.297)

Mm-hmm.

Marty Solomon (39:34.176)

selves over the bible so that we could use the bible for our and our theology it's our proof text the bible was never intended to be our proof text the bible was always the thing that god wanted to use to shape us to transform us to provoke us to whenever we open the book god is using the book to do something to us we are not using the book to do something to others and that posture so so i love the pillar of wrestling because

Alex Kocher (39:36.818)

Ah.

Alex Kocher (39:41.074)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (40:00.350)

Hmm.

Marty Solomon (40:04.196)

reminds me of where i sit in this hierarchy of transformation i am just one other person that's being changed by the grace of god i want to invite other people into that space but i don't want to get myself in the wrong spot on that pyramid and so that's the wrestling pillar that i think basically it's a pillar it's a pillar of permission is what it really is

Alex Kocher (40:24.910)

Yeah, I really, yes, that yes. And I think that without it, Marty, first of all, we don't know how to be posture to the text. And secondly, we will not engage in radical community or the kind of discipleship you're talking about if we don't have that permission. Because when you believe you have to have all the answers before you can call someone to follow you, you never get there. You never arrive at the place where you feel like, I understand it now.

Brenda (40:28.153)

m hm

Brenda (40:43.643)

Alex Kocher (40:54.910)

can pass it on. But when you give me permission to say I can still be in the wrestle and I can be in community where I'm continually being challenged and I can call other people to watch my life like okay like now there's hope like I can I can do that if I'm allowed to wrestle while I do it.

Marty Solomon (41:14.536)

absolutely absolutely and it's a shame that that's not more shame whatever well it is grieves me that that's not a more native posture and space for our communities of faith but we can get there we can get there

Brenda (41:15.996)

hm hm

Alex Kocher (41:23.354)

Mm-hmm

Alex Kocher (41:30.770)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Say, yeah, we know.

Brenda (41:33.573)

i think we have to get there to grow and to be humble and i think about so much in our ministry a lot of times there are not a lot of black and white there's a lot of gray there's a lot of wisdom calls there's you can argue this from this side you can argue from this side if you just want to proof text and so there is a lot of wrestling and i think you know a lot of what we want to do is encourage people to know that that wrestling is a part of the lament right that we have with

Alex Kocher (41:45.050)

Mm-hmm.

Marty Solomon (41:51.600)

yep yep

Alex Kocher (41:52.094)

Mm-hmm

Alex Kocher (42:02.281)

Mm.

Marty Solomon (42:02.801)

yeah

Brenda (42:03.393)

or in our own hearts of wrestling with god ourselves and then going walking along other people and giving them permission and that freedom to wrestle as well because we see that throughout the scriptures and we know that actually that wrestling loving your book you know just you talk about wrestling or doubting from a place of confidence and so it's an invitation for deeper discovery and meaning and connection to the lord i think we tend to see it is the opposite

Alex Kocher (42:19.477)

Mm-hmm

Alex Kocher (42:23.312)

Mmm.

Marty Solomon (42:23.318)

yes yeh

Marty Solomon (42:32.176)

yeah yeah yeah i love that is one of my favorite parts of where the book starts i didn't intend on writing that opening chapter to that book i sat down to write and that's what ended up coming out and i really ended up loving what what jesus did in that chapter because there is that paragraph where i talk about that i feel like when we think of doubts we always assume that doubts are coming from a place where people are like trying to tear down the faith

Alex Kocher (42:32.892)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (42:47.562)

Mm.

Marty Solomon (43:02.116)

or and sometimes they are but i think actually most of the time a lot of us doubt because we actually do trust the bible we trust that the bible is big enough that we are the ones that don't see something that there must be more that i'm simply not aware of and that's where our doubts are coming from and those are the doubts we got to keep chasing down because there true the bible is big enough and there are things we don't know

Alex Kocher (43:05.013)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (43:12.054)

Right.

Brenda (43:14.738)

yes

Alex Kocher (43:28.950)

Hmm.

Marty Solomon (43:31.936)

those are good doubts doubts lead us to like a deeper more robust faith and absolutely one hundred percent

Brenda (43:37.874)

yes yes

Alex Kocher (43:38.155)

Mm-hmm

Alex Kocher (43:41.030)

Well, Marty, tell us a little bit more about the book because I literally laughed when I read your title. Asking better questions, a guide for the winded wary and longing for more. And I laughed because I think we could have written that book and it would have been a completely different book than what you wrote. It would have been from a personal ministry counseling perspective. But asking better questions is just such a hallmark of what we

Marty Solomon (43:47.816)

uh uh

Brenda (43:47.853)

Brenda (43:59.853)

yeah

Marty Solomon (44:05.302)

yeah

Alex Kocher (44:11.250)

people to do. I always tell people the first five years of counseling I ask the Lord to make me a better question asker. But you're talking about different questions I think so tell us a little bit more about the book.

Marty Solomon (44:22.656)

well it'll be the same heart i'm going to be coming at it from a herminutic perspective from a biblical interpretation perspective but it's the same idea and it's making sure that when we read the bible we're meeting the bible on its own terms rather than forcing the bible to meet us on our terms and we do that theologically all the time we we have a pre we have a prescribed theological system and were then using the bible to you know meet those demands but when we learn to ask a better set of questions i have a friend who used to say his name's aaron and he used to say

um when you ask questions the bible isn't asking you always get the wrong answers um so how do we make sure we're asking the questions the bible is asking so the whole book is a journey through the biblical library like let's look at wisdom literature let's look at the prophets look let's look at the gospels each one of these portions of the biblical library are unique and they're doing something unique and so when we learn to and this isn't like some i don't need a seminary degree to do this there is a lot there's a lot a lot of people up

Alex Kocher (44:57.953)

Mm-hmm

Alex Kocher (45:20.156)

Mm-hmm

Marty Solomon (45:22.576)

it's like drinking from a fire hyde writ in the book but but they're also not difficult and they don't require it's just learning how to have a new conversation and ask those new questions and then all of a sudden i'm meeting the bible on its terms because i'm reading the gospel not for what i want the gospel to do but i'm meeting the gospel with what matthew is trying to do in his gospel i'm reading amos the prophet amos on amos's terms making sure i'm hearing the quest

Alex Kocher (45:49.950)

Thank you. Thank you.

Marty Solomon (45:52.616)

that amos is asking and therefore wrestling with the right answer i'm reading leviticus on levidicuss terms is probably a horrible example to use but you get the idea like to meet the bible on its terms ask the questions it's asking and a basic idea far more comic far more difficult than we might imagine but it can be done i promise because i'm really not that big of an expert like for all the celebrity talk you guys opened up this podcast

Brenda (46:01.253)

yeah

Alex Kocher (46:02.131)

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Brenda (46:21.953)

uh huh

Marty Solomon (46:22.636)

with i'm just i'm just the robin hood of theology stealing from the theologically rich to give to the theologically poor because you can't quote me in a paper so if i can point people to all the folks that you can quote in a paper wherein we're in good shape

Alex Kocher (46:22.691)

Ha ha!

Alex Kocher (46:29.156)

I love that.

Alex Kocher (46:37.090)

But I can quote you to a lot of people and I have. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

Brenda (46:37.139)

Marty Solomon (46:39.316)

yeah

Brenda (46:40.793)

me too well let me just say that i got my copy last week i'm already four chapters in marty it is incredibly accessible you know it's it's digestible to read it is a lot but it is it is simple if i can say that it's not i'm reading it not feeing like i have a headache at the end i'm like oh that's so good that's so good that's so good i'm underlining every other page i'm just you know got my little high lighter out and underlining paul and i were sharing this book and he is not going a want to read it after i get done here

Alex Kocher (46:52.176)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (47:01.432)

Hmm

Brenda (47:09.533)

probably need to buy his own copy but that's right that's right but i love what you've got so many rich analogies and i have to say you know having studied the bible and been through precepts and been in a tradition where there's a very high view of scripture and all of that there is just been a lot for me to learn about the understanding of how to approach the scriptures and and i think this book coupled with your podcast

Marty Solomon (47:12.478)

oh shucks another copy darn

Alex Kocher (47:14.946)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (47:32.750)

Thank you. Thank you.

Brenda (47:39.533)

would really be like if somebody wants to be schooled here get the book listen to the podcast because they're going to i think just get more of the practice because basically what you what you do in your podcast you use the tools of this book and you're using these tools to expound and i think wont you see how it's done is like that is powerful and so good so yeah we really want to recommend that our listeners um go to a streaming service and download ba ma be

Marty Solomon (47:53.180)

yes

Alex Kocher (47:53.950)

Thank you. Thank you.

Alex Kocher (48:00.950)

Thank you. Thank you.

Brenda (48:09.613)

m a podcast and go by the book asking better questions of the bible a guide for the wounded weary and longing for more and marty they can also find you at marti solomon dot com as well and you've got some trips coming up maybe yes i know you do

Marty Solomon (48:27.696)

i sure do we're gonna be releasing some orientations and some information and registration to start opening this summer so twenty twenty four we got three different trips headed out so we'll see how it goes

Alex Kocher (48:35.750)

Okay.

Alex Kocher (48:38.750)

Wow. Wow.

Brenda (48:39.533)

that's great we hope to be on your turkey trip that's our next little goal and to prepare we did not realize when we went to israel how much we needed to prepare for that trip physically mary so we may start we may start a year ahead of time for the turkey trip i don't know

Marty Solomon (48:45.662)

good

Marty Solomon (48:55.816)

well it won't that won't that won't be too bad of an idea turkey won't be nearly as hard on you but don't tell anybody that that's our secret

Brenda (49:01.253)

okay great well marty it has been such a joy having you thank you so much for just gracing us with your time and your knowledge and your passion and zeal and i love you talk about it spat in the podcast and that god loves to partner with people with it spat and you definitely are one of those people just getting to know with you and walk with you that has that well i can't i don't how would you describe it spat

Alex Kocher (49:01.450)

Alex Kocher (49:14.655)

Hmm.

Brenda (49:27.954)

yeah i know in a way that we can say

Marty Solomon (49:27.958)

yeah i now see why you just passed that on to me it's it's the it's the guts it's the fire yeah we're just going to end it right there

Alex Kocher (49:31.705)

Ha!

Brenda (49:34.253)

the guts yes the fire and the guts exactly there are other things we can say but we don't exactly we won't say that so thank you for your passion and your guts and again we thank god for you and god bless your ministry and we hope to connect with you again

Alex Kocher (49:34.770)

the guts

Alex Kocher (49:40.094)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (49:43.270)

Thank you Marty.

Alex Kocher (49:47.736)

Mm-hmm

Marty Solomon (49:49.157)

absolutely you guys been of joy being here and just thanks for the time