Season 9 Episode 7/ Trauma: Helping Someone Tell Their Trauma Story

Brenda (00:02.581)

So Alex, know, one of the things I like to say whenever we get started podcasting is Jesus take the wheel. Throughout the whole podcast and everybody else who's listening. But I do think it's an appropriate saying when we start thinking about the topic of this episode in particularly, and that's just helping someone tell their trauma story.

Alex (00:07.82)

Yes. And now that song will be in my head all day. Thanks. Thanks for that.

Alex (00:24.866)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (00:25.438)

I mean, literally, I don't think there's a time that I sit down with somebody and begin to unpack a story that it is in my mind, like Jesus, take the wheel because we can't do this without you or apart from you. So this is episode seven in our series on trauma. And one of the things we've been trying to do, Alex, is demystify a little bit the idea surrounding trauma that is only something professionals can enter into. We're arguing that if we have the right heart,

Alex (00:32.51)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (00:54.324)

and some skill and are willing to show up that we can enter into really hard places. And in fact, it's a really God-like quality to do so, right? To enter into really hard places and it really imitates the life of Jesus himself who left heaven and came to earth to enter into our darkest and hardest places. And so we just really want to equip, encourage and train other people to

Alex (01:03.63)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (01:24.353)

to have just the confidence and the competence to do that. So this episode, we're going to talk about primarily three things. One is how we do watch Jesus and what he models for us when it comes to entering into hard places, because there really are no hard cases for him or for God. Understanding the importance of telling a trauma story. Why do we even need to do that? And then establishing safety, even while somebody is

Alex (01:27.64)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (01:46.979)

Yes.

Brenda (01:52.882)

actually telling their story and why that's important.

Alex (01:56.099)

Yeah, we keep coming back to that word safety over and over again. And I know people are hearing the repetition. I'm glad for it. But I like that we're starting off today with watching Jesus and this idea of helping someone tell their trauma story. One of my favorite books is Paul Miller's book, Love Walked Among Us. And he talks about the model that Jesus, Jesus life was about, which was that he saw people and he was moved with compassion.

for people and then he moved towards them. He drew near to them. And I love that really simple model because once you see it, you see it all throughout the Gospels. You see it with the crowds, you see it with individuals, and each encounter is different but each time you see Jesus really seeing people really being moved and then responding with that compassion with action. And one of my favorite stories is the Mark 4 story of the

woman with the bleeding disease. And I love that story for many, many reasons. But one of them is that Jesus isn't content to just heal her physically. He stops and he asks her to tell her story. And it's a story we know from the background that the Bible gives us that that conveys a lot of shame, a lot of isolation, because she was seen as an outcast because of her sickness.

And he wanted her not just to be physically healed, but to, I think, be healed in body and soul. And he did that by allowing her to know that she was seen. then, and then the beauty of the story to me comes in this one word is that he calls her daughter. And it's the only place in the gospels where he calls someone daughter.

Brenda (03:44.986)

Hmm.

Alex (03:48.843)

And I think that is just so heavy and so intentionally conveying love and acceptance of who she is, what she's experienced. And he says, daughter, your faith has made you well.

Brenda (04:06.084)

Well, I love that. I think that when a person tells their trauma story...

It just goes to show that the healing is when we understand our true identity, right? Because trauma shapes us and makes us believe a story about God and ourselves and others that's not true. And so I love that you're drawing out that idea of like, he gives her the truest name. You're not the outcast. You're my daughter. And that's really what people that are going through trauma need to know that have been through trauma is you're not the outcast. You're his son. You're his daughter.

Alex (04:19.015)

Mm.

Alex (04:25.201)

Yes.

Alex (04:31.897)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm.

Brenda (04:43.353)

So there's a lot of reasons it's important to tell our trauma story and we wanted just to point out a few. One of the things that we know is our story shape us just like the woman in Mark that you talked about. Her story was not just a story, it was a story that was shaping her life.

Alex (04:48.775)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (05:00.414)

and our stories help us understand why we are the way we are. And in telling our stories or allowing a person to tell their story gives them the opportunity to reflect on the hurt and the harm because sin isn't just bad and wrong, it's hurtful, painful and wounding.

Alex (05:14.757)

Right. Yeah.

Brenda (05:17.656)

And so, in being able to reflect on that in their lives and their relationships is really important because we've been talking about how your past is not just your past. Oftentimes, your past is actually in your present as well.

Alex (05:31.433)

Yeah.

Yeah, so we love this Dan Allender quote where he says that our stories make known the story of God. This goes along with our season on the grand narrative, right? Understanding God's story and his story and our own story. He says your life and the stories, the heartache, the mundane, the complex and the good are written by God. He is the author. Your stories call forth his son's death, resurrection and ascension. Can you craft your story to reveal God's story? And I love that because it makes us

Brenda (06:00.433)

Hmm.

Alex (06:01.948)

us not afraid to look at our story. It gives us a paradigm and a lens through which to see our own story so that we can see that there is a pattern in these stories of death, resurrection and new life. And I love that it gives us permission. Like we're not trying to wallow in the past, but we really are trying to understand how our story fits into the story of God and how God's story

helps us to understand what's happened to us.

Brenda (06:36.102)

And I think people who have been through trauma, fear is such a motivator that causes them to shrink back from telling their story because it's so painful. And I think the biggest question that I see as I'm walking with people is how can I know I will get to newness of life? How will I know that there will that healing will come? How can I be sure that if I start opening up my story, it just won't be a big black hole I can never get out of. And so it is a tremendous act of faith.

Alex (06:51.454)

Right.

Alex (07:02.527)

Right.

Brenda (07:06.218)

for somebody to turn toward Christ and say, will begin to follow you and walk out my story with someone else, with the Lord, and trust that He's going to bring me to the other side.

Alex (07:18.283)

And I think you're articulating why we need to walk with others in their story and help them tell their trauma story because it's scary to think about going down into that big black hole. And it's funny that that is almost a universal saying that people, describe it as the pit or the big black hole is some metaphor of darkness and going down. And it's scary to do that alone. And of course we know the Holy Spirit is with us as believers, but we need to be reminded of that in the presence of a person.

Brenda (07:39.346)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (07:49.813)

Well, one thing that's so wonderful that neuroscience is now telling us is that telling our story also changes our brain as we tell our story. And I love the fact that science is just a witness to what God is saying is true.

Alex (07:57.226)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (08:03.933)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (08:08.406)

I think Kurt Thompson talked about this when we got to interview him and of course his books are just filled with not only the biblical reasons that we tell our stories, but like you said, the relational and neuroscience reasons we tell our story. And one of the things that we're learning is that when we have experiences of trauma, we have stories that take our brain to danger and to pain. So the path that it follows in our brain says warning, says

danger, it says pain and destruction and that when we tell our story in a place where we're safe, we're able to change that pathway so that it no longer goes to a place of pain and danger, it goes to a place of safety. We can recognize that this is the present and in the present we're safe and that story can be rerouted in our brain.

So Brenda, saw that a couple of weeks ago with a little friend of mine at church and we came into church one morning and she's four and or about to be four and no she is four. No she's about to be four and she had been at daycare that week and they had a fire drill.

and the fire drill was very scary. And because she was afraid in the fire drill, she ran into the bathroom. The noise, the confusion scared her. And when we walked into church on Sunday, she was telling one of the deacons about the fire drill. And she was explaining to him that fire drills keep us safe and fire drills are for our good. And we need a fire drill so we can practice.

how to go to safety and it's very loud but you don't have to be scared. You don't have to be afraid and of course I come in and then she starts the story again and then my husband Mason comes in and she starts the story again and she ends with walking Mason down the hall and showing him where all the fire alarms are and all the fire

Brenda (09:59.927)

So, I love it.

you

Alex (10:17.85)

sirens are in the church. And I realized, I mean it was cute and it was sweet and she you could tell how her mother had walked her through that fear because she said if you can see us on the video she would say it's not scary it keeps us safe and she would do her hand motions and it was super cute.

But it was so much more than that. It was her rerouting her brain from a painful and scary experience. She was telling the story again and again in a place that she was safe with people she felt safe with to remind herself that she was safe. And it was just such a sweet example. We got in the car and my husband was saying how sweet it was. And I said, she was telling you her trauma story and she was reminding herself and experiencing something different, a place of

And I said, it's everything we're talking about on our podcast.

Brenda (11:16.834)

I love that. I love this such a simple and childlike example of this. And I think we see something else and that is that when she was going back and telling the story, she was getting support.

Alex (11:20.526)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (11:30.156)

Right? Like she was she was being supported in that story. Like, yes, that is true. And you're thinking about that. Right. And so another reason we need to tell our trauma stories is because a lot of times people who go through trauma don't always see God and are not well supported in it. And so when we retell it with God in view and the presence of a trusted witness, then we feel supported as well. And that kind of even goes to the right brain, right brain, all the neuroscience that goes into that, that is way, way over.

Alex (11:43.224)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex (11:53.772)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (12:00.012)

above my pay grade, but there's something that's really happening that God is doing because we are embodied souls that is just is touching us as a physical being and a spiritual being as well. One of the things Adam Young says, naming what is hurt is 50 % of the healing. And I remember a gentleman that I knew, a doctor who had been severely abused by his parents and then in return became a very broken and abusive person in his

Alex (12:02.937)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (12:06.627)

Right.

Alex (12:18.522)

you

Brenda (12:29.868)

own family when he began his healing journey. That was one of the things he said. He said, feel like the first 50 % of was just naming what had happened to me, having somebody listen to me, understanding, maybe not so much like we talked about where was God, but who God is in my story. he said, and then I feel like the rest of my life has been working through the other 50%. Right? Like it's been a journey spending the rest of his life, you know, waiting and

Alex (12:47.034)

Hmm.

Alex (12:53.849)

Yeah.

Brenda (12:59.755)

watching and calling on the Lord for healing. And you know the other thing we just have to recognize is that not all healing is going to come on this side of heaven. Like there may, we may not get all the healing that we desire, but we have seen people come through incredible healing, significant healing, have amazing ability to you know find that resiliency to grow as a result of their trauma.

Alex (13:27.834)

you

I think your story about the doctors really good Brenda because I think it's often hard to know when we talk to somebody if we should start with their sin or suffering first and often times I do think we need to allow them the space to understand their suffering because when they can understand their suffering then they can develop the empathy for people who they've hurt and it's not that that's a linear thing like we have to completely heal from this suffering in order to move into this

their sin story, but I definitely think that without that experience of understanding our own suffering stories, we will struggle to understand how we've hurt people. In other words, if we've told ourselves it's not a big deal, you're fine. We will tell other people in essence it's not a big deal how I've hurt you, you're fine. And so we have to really begin to be comfortable naming those things that have hurt us. And then I find that people are very quickly able

to see how they've hurt other people.

Brenda (14:33.214)

And I think maybe one of the unique...

characteristics of Christian healing, if you will, or this idea of telling our trauma stories is that the healing is not an end in and of itself. That really what we're wanting is for people to experience God and His love in deeper ways and their faith to grow, and their trust in Him to grow. We want them to learn to lean into Him, to come to know Him more intimately, to be aware of His presence, His promises, and even to become more useful in their calling.

they are healed. Again, we've just seen, you know, people... I always say that our greatest platform to preach is our suffering and sin stories. Like those are the areas. And I would argue that's because God has met us and we have met God in the most real and deep ways at those points of our biggest sin struggle and our deepest suffering stories. And when you've had that sort of forgiveness, when you've had that sort of healing, when you've had that sort of intimate experience with the

Lord, then what's going to flow out of that more naturally is a desire, an ability, a confidence in the Lord to help other people as well.

Alex (15:47.274)

Mm-hmm, yeah.

And it's true, God wants to use our stories, but he can't use our stories if we don't understand them for ourselves, if we don't talk about it, if we're running from it, if we minimize it, and we've never learned how to receive grace and mercy in the midst of our story, we're going to have a difficult time using our story. And sometimes I see people who want to use their story so much, they want to move to that very quickly. It's like, okay, I my story now, what kind of ministry am I going to have?

Brenda (16:14.086)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (16:18.964)

I think that can even be a tricky thing that sometimes where God wants to use our story first and foremost is of course in our own hearts. And then it's going to be very slow and usually start very small. And we wanna write the redemption of our story and we have to let God use our story in the way that he wants to in his timing and in his ways.

Brenda (16:21.372)

Yes.

Brenda (16:37.023)

Okay.

Brenda (16:41.822)

Yeah, I think that's a really important point to make. I've seen that happen and what happens is if you rush out to begin to use your story as the platform to preach the gospel so often it becomes about you. Maybe you don't even mean for it to but so much of the counsel that you give will be well this is what happened to me and this is how I responded and this is you know and all the all the connection points come back to you and you actually miss the person that you're wanting to minister to.

I think you're right. think being slow, waiting on the Lord, allowing him to lead where that story needs to be spoken. How it's a, it's a, you're suffering. You know, that story is a, is something to steward and to steward well. And so.

and not to feel rushed too, because I think sometimes the flip side of that as people helpers, we can rush people to want to be like, you've got the story here. Let me put you in front of other people to share your testimony, this great God story. So I think we also have to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit's work and the timing. So whether or not we're kind of pulling the reins back a little bit or, you know, little bit of, you know, hitting the side to go like, you can do this. God's, you know, God's put you in this place to be able to speak now. So just being sensitive and letting the Holy Spirit lead.

Alex (17:38.071)

Yes, we can.

Alex (17:52.247)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (18:01.369)

Mm-hmm.

So as we help other people tell their stories and we understand the importance of their trauma story, we also want to make sure again, we're going to mention it again, that we want to establish safety, that we were created for shalom and for peace. And we want to make sure we're establishing safety in the midst of telling the story. And so we're going to, we've talked about safety in other contexts. want to talk about safety now and how we allow people space to tell their story.

And first and foremost, I think we are going to have to address physical safety and usually that's in the instances of acute trauma. We have to make sure that people are physically, emotionally, psychologically safe and that the space that they occupy in their home usually is a safe space for them. It's going to be very difficult for someone to, if not impossible, for someone to unpack their trauma story if they are not safe.

Brenda (19:01.643)

And I know there's just times we have to tell somebody you're not ready. I think about somebody who's had childhood abuse and then is in an abusive marriage as well. You can't go back and start unpacking anything.

Alex (19:11.682)

Yes.

Brenda (19:16.285)

anything until they're in safety, but sometimes people can we go back and talk about my childhood and it's just not safe to do that or even begin to talk about their current story of abuse of their somebody who's in a marriage situation until they have come into safety.

Alex (19:22.853)

Right.

Alex (19:32.005)

I've had that happen, Brenda, with people who want to unpack their childhood trauma and the impetus for it is caring for aging parents. And oftentimes because of their physical proximity of caring for aging parents, it's not the time to talk about their childhood trauma. They may want to talk about a few things, but they'll find it very hard to really get into it when they have to keep being in the presence of their parent. And so they need some physical distance in order to be able to unpack that. So that can be a tricky

Brenda (19:47.948)

Hmm.

Alex (20:01.968)

space to walk, wanting to give them the agency of what they want to unpack but also cautioning them to recognize that there's just so much that their body can handle.

Brenda (20:11.716)

Well, that's even just a good word for me with somebody that I'm dealing with currently. So thank you for that. I think, again, I think this is just so much of discernment. And when you're working with people, because biblical counseling is...

We're all in this together. I'm not the professional telling you what to do, but you're sitting there with a story. We're having a conversation. We're allowing the Holy Spirit to lead. And so some of that back and forth between they want to go one way, but you want to caution them, but you don't want to inhibit them, but you also don't want to send them into further crises. And to be honest with you, I've gotten down the road with some people that I've just had to stop and be like, you know what? I'm not sure we should have taken this turn at this time.

Alex (20:29.179)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (20:56.422)

Hmm.

Brenda (20:57.685)

I'd like to back up. I'd like to work more on just your relationship with the Lord and going back to safety like safety with with the Lord safety in your body or even How to be safe let's say in the in the situation where you've got aging parents But they've been abusive that kind of the idea of boundaries like what what can you do? What should you do? How are you gonna walk through that so? That can be really hard and again. This is just where having other people helping us help other people

Alex (20:59.197)

Yeah.

Alex (21:15.941)

Yeah.

Alex (21:26.512)

Right.

Brenda (21:27.116)

is really going to be useful. So the other part of establishing safety is just emotional safety in the moment. probably what we've said showing up, if, goodness, I wish that there were, I've got a few women who are doing such a great job at this and I wish I had a hundred more like them that would just say, I'm willing, who do you want me to just walk with and just love on and be with? And so I just want to say, right off the bat that,

Alex (21:29.321)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (21:45.569)

Mm-hmm

Brenda (21:57.478)

Don't be afraid if you love Jesus and you have a heart for people and you're a people helper. Get skill, but understand that walking with people and showing up and just having kindness toward them, just having patience toward them, just being a resource for them is invaluable. And you could have all the skill in the world. You could have all the knowledge about trauma in the world, but if you don't show up, it won't do any good. Or if you show up and you think you have all the

Alex (21:58.909)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (22:27.405)

answers and you don't listen to them and do all the things that we're talking about, then you're not going to be very emotionally safe or very helpful. And then also just we have to work through our own trauma stories first.

you know, because we can also get triggered. And when you and I were just even saying, we may be triggered by our own story, or we just may be triggered because of the wrongness of the situation. And some of that emotion needs to be conveyed, but we also need to be careful. And I have had some situations where, I mean, I overreacted. And to be honest with you, situations I can look back where I underreacted because of my own story. And so...

Alex (22:52.229)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (23:08.378)

Yeah, I think about a particular place in my story that I didn't unpack for a long time. And so I can see when people came in, I really read it through a whole different kind of lens that wasn't healthy. So I think we just have to be aware of our own emotional state. What has shaped us emotionally? What stories do we bring that are our filters? And this is why, again, it's so important. I keep stressing this, but this is why being sensitive to the Holy Spirit, making sure that we're walking with the Lord is so important because

Alex (23:15.786)

Hmm.

Brenda (23:38.281)

because the Spirit knows everything. He knows everything about my story and the story of the person in front of me. And so I'm going to lean into him and really be very dependent on him as I'm talking to one of his sons or daughters.

Alex (23:41.065)

Right.

Alex (23:51.901)

Mm-hmm, that's good.

The last kind of safety we want to mention is spiritual safety because oftentimes when we're unpacking people's trauma story, I guess especially, you know, we're living, both of us in the Bible Belt, we see a lot of people that part of their trauma story may be that the Bible or God's name or the church has been used against them. And so we have to create a place of spiritual safety where we don't want to push them back to places of hurt.

And that may mean that we are really careful the language we use or careful before we jump into Bible verses, we may have to really pray and wait on the Holy Spirit to help us recognize when they're ready to move towards that part of the hurt and healing. Because if we don't, we can re-traumatize them feeling like, you know, once again, the Bible is being used and that feels very painful.

Brenda (24:50.631)

I would say that spiritual abuse is one of the hardest, maybe the hardest abuse that we encounter just because of that. When you're trying to figure out how to connect somebody to God.

Alex (24:55.055)

It is.

Brenda (25:03.295)

whose view of God has been very distorted, twisted, that they've been manipulated, they've been exploited. The Bible's been weaponized against them. It makes it, and I think we could do a whole another episode just on helping people with spiritual abuse who have been traumatized in that way. I think there's some specific things to that that we have to be really sensitive about that we don't have time to talk about in this podcast, but I think it'd be worth coming back to.

Alex (25:05.331)

Yeah.

Alex (25:14.249)

Yes.

Alex (25:32.553)

And in each one of these areas of safety, think what we're doing is we're just really watching the person carefully. Like we said in the very beginning, Jesus saw people. Like we have to see people. We have to see what things they're reacting to. Things that we say, things in their own story so we can be sensitive to those places. Because I tell people this a lot, and I think we may have even said this in our body podcast, like you're not

to bootstrap yourself into healing, right? You're not going to tell yourself I have to heal here and then you'll heal there. We have to tend to that just like we would tend to a wound, a physical wound, and we have to tend to it carefully. And we can't heal a physical wound by our willpower and we cannot heal emotional and spiritual wounds by willpower.

Brenda (26:26.412)

it comes back to just being a good analogy when we look at the body. Well, let's Alex talk about some practical tips for when we hear somebody's trauma story. And the first one we were talking about is maybe the hardest or the one where we feel the most tension and that is to believe the person.

Alex (26:29.983)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (26:42.049)

This is hard.

Alex (26:46.134)

So there's just so many nuances and complexities to this idea of believing the person who's sitting in front of you. I don't think I've ever taught trauma that somebody doesn't ask me this question, which is why we're gonna attempt to wrestle this out. And to recognize how complex this is, I just think we need to be honest about it. And we're being very intentional when we say believe the person, because there are situations where

We may even begin to suspect that what the person's perception is is not true I had a case several years ago where someone began to tell me a story of some danger that they were in and As the story unfolded she continued to check with me that I believe her and I stayed with her and said yes I believe that's what you're seeing I believe it and it really became evident that that she was struggling with some mental illness But she was not going to even literally

stay in the room if I said that's not happening this isn't real right she she would literally have walked out of the room and so it was like walking a tightrope of recognizing that her perception was her reality in that moment and that I had to very gently and very carefully move her to doubt her own perception

and to move her towards getting medical professional help. And so those are not common. That's a rare instance, but it is real. And I think what we have to do is we have to just go very slowly in trauma stories. We have to go very slowly in letting someone explain what's happened to them and recognize that often a story is going to unfold over time and things may be revealed

that we have to challenge down the road, but we can stay with the person and we can stay with their experience of the story.

Brenda (28:49.034)

Well, I think what complicates it even more is this idea of fragmentation, right? That oftentimes the memories are separated. They're not integrated. They're not connected. It's not a linear logical path of what's happened when you talk to somebody in trauma. And so it can't really make the person look crazy.

Alex (28:53.36)

Right.

Alex (29:10.352)

Right.

Brenda (29:11.01)

Right? And yet it may be a completely normal response to overwhelming or abnormal circumstances. But I think again, this is where, mean, one, it's not always our job to dig down and we may not always uncover the exact truth. I mean, there's just going to be times that we're going to have to rest in that God knows and we're going to meet the person where they're at. And

Alex (29:28.432)

Right?

Brenda (29:39.407)

Yeah, and then I think the other part is to recognize that what we might be seeing is just that idea of fragmentation that they're not able to put a story together. I was talking to a lady not too long ago and she had a traumatic event, but she she couldn't and she could not put the timeline at all. It's like she started telling the story and then she went back and she flipped the dates and then I was getting so confused and then she was like, I just don't know. You know, it seemed like from my perspective, it seemed very simple. The events were big enough. There should have been a logical

Alex (30:00.187)

Right.

Brenda (30:09.736)

flow to what was happening, but she was totally reversing things that were illogical. And it really was, she had never told this story to anybody. And so in her mind, she's going into a fight-flight even if she's telling the story, so she can't think clearly as she's trying to sort through the story. And so that can just really take some time. But you talk about mental illness, we think about paranoia, maybe some of the other maybe mental health diagnoses.

Alex (30:14.236)

Right.

Alex (30:18.46)

Right.

Brenda (30:39.158)

schizophrenia, those sort of things and we just do have to be sensitive that maybe even the body is involved in ways of, I don't know what the right word I'm looking for, but the misperceptions, I guess I could say could even be physiological in nature as well.

Alex (30:53.341)

Right.

Alex (30:57.893)

And fragmentation is physiological, right? Like we tend to think of it like it's a phenomenon, but it is actually what's happening in the brain, that the prefrontal cortex is offline. And so the literal ability to order events correctly is offline because we're using the lower parts of our brain in that moment. so fragmentation is a physiological response. Because of that, think we just need to be very careful and not

Brenda (31:01.914)

Yeah.

Alex (31:27.952)

believing that someone is trying to deceive us or they're they're trying to lie but they are actually trying to regulate their nervous system and understand their story rightly and we can stay with them in that and we can be okay with that.

Brenda (31:45.393)

Yeah, and that old saying, truth and time go hand in hand, and I have found that too. If you walk with somebody long enough, if you go slow enough, then there have been times that you recognize that what's being said is not true. And even so much sometimes that you recognize that the person who says they've had the trauma might be the one creating more of the trauma.

Alex (32:06.741)

And there again, when the Holy Spirit begins to reveal that, something important is happening in the relationship if somebody wants to believe that's true. So we're still gaining information the whole time that I think we would cut off if we immediately confronted, know, air quit confronted with challenges of, you you're lying or you're deceiving, but.

really understanding at that point, what is causing this person to believe this is true? Or why do they want to tell the story this way? What is being, what's motivating them here is actually an important question to get to. So there are lots of reasons why it's important to just stay with the person who's telling their story over time and go slow and continue to help them regulate their nervous system while they do that.

Brenda (32:57.363)

Okay, so the second practical tip we have is don't make them responsible for their trauma.

Alex (33:02.603)

Yeah, I think we've mentioned this in other podcasts, Brenda, actually people, particularly who've experienced abuse, often want to make themselves responsible for the trauma, particularly for the abuse, because if I can make myself responsible, then I can change, right? Whereas if someone else is responsible, then I am just waiting on the Lord.

Brenda (33:21.213)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (33:27.966)

to move their hearts to change and that's really hard. So we actually feel a little bit more in control of the situation if we can make ourselves responsible and just change our behavior. So I'm thinking of people who come in and tell stories of childhood abuse and say, well, I was a really difficult child. You know, I had ADD and I was so hard for my dad to handle.

really why he reacted that way because again then if I can rewrite that story and I can be quote easier then I can make sure that I don't ever experience that abuse again and that that gives a false sense of safety.

Brenda (34:05.718)

Alright, the next one is don't minimize trauma and encourage the person not to minimize the trauma either. And we just talk about how comparative suffering only brings shame. You know, we often hear other people, I'm hurting but other people have hurt worse.

Yeah, I just think this whole idea if we begin to compare ourselves or somebody compares themselves, typically they're always going to come on the side of feeling more shame because they're making a big deal out of nothing. And sometimes we do that or the traumatized person does that because it's uncomfortable to have to deal with the depth and level of evil or hurt a person encounters like evil is hard to face. It's hard to acknowledge.

It's hard not to compare and I think somebody who has particularly been in a situation where they've had ongoing trauma, particularly childhood trauma, know, it's some of it has just become so normalized to them that don't even recognize it for how bad it is.

Alex (35:13.332)

Right. Yeah.

Yeah, I think this thing of helping someone not minimize their trauma is so important because I think we all do it at some point in our story. try to minimize what we've experienced by comparison usually. And just to be reminded that comparing your story to someone else doesn't take away the hurt that you experienced. It's still your story and it's still the feelings that you felt. And so I think that's a great point. And I

think in doing that we allow them to tell their story truly, tell their own experience truly which is always going to be important. It's not less true that I was hurt because somebody else was hurt in a different way or in a quote worse way.

Brenda (36:01.074)

Well, we've even talked about the three parts of trauma or the event, the experience and the impact.

And so we've said that you could have even the same event, but have a different experience and a different impact. So, you know, even in comparing, was my trauma worse than their trauma? Well, what if we had the exact same event, but we had very different experiences and impact? It would still make my experience and impact real to me, even if the other person's experience and impact would vary differently.

Alex (36:12.975)

Right.

Alex (36:27.641)

Right.

Alex (36:31.633)

Right, it's really good.

The next thing that we want to remember as we listen to people's trauma story is that at every opportunity we want to give them back agency. Like we've talked about trauma as an experience of powerlessness and we feel like things have happened to us instead of us making them happen. So agency again is that ability to make decisions. And it seems weird to say that they get to make decisions even in the way that they tell the story, but they do. And we need to allow them that we need to allow them to

tell the story at their own pace and in the way that they want to. So often that means again that the story does not come out linearly. I find that people tell me a little bit

and wait to see how I handle that information. And then they begin to open up and tell more. And that's okay. Like that gives them the them a sense of power. Again, the good kind of power, the good kind of agency that they get to decide how much detail, how much expression of suffering that they've had. And so even in the way they tell the story where we need to be careful not to push too hard or to take them to places that they're not ready to go. So

Practically Brenda, that looks like for me saying things like, do you want to share more about what you just told me about your mom?

Alex (37:55.609)

Like I ask it as a question instead of wait a minute, wait, wait, I need to understand mom more, you know, and kind of push them there. But to ask it as a question or, you know, like to invite you to maybe consider that this part of your story was really painful. Could we go back there? Are you ready to go back there and let them say no and let, you know, let them have the opportunity to say, I'm not ready to do that today. And then back off.

Brenda (37:57.738)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (38:01.941)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brenda (38:16.289)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (38:23.196)

Yeah, think knowing when to back off is so important. I had a young gal and she came in and just shared all of her story in one sitting. Like she just, could just tell she was going through it quickly. She just needed to get it all out. And then of course she crashed afterwards. And then she sent me a message saying,

Alex (38:39.311)

Yeah.

Brenda (38:42.423)

because we were scheduled to come back like the next week, I wanted to do a pretty quick follow up and to check in with her. But I thought it was interesting because she said, I don't, I'm wondering if we should wait longer in between. I feel like I need a lot, you know, a lot longer. And I found myself really being like, no, no, no, no, because so much of me wanted to like bring her back in to comfort her, to be able to talk more and start working through things. But, you know, I just had to honor that. I gave her some pros and cons to waiting and pros and cons to coming back. and then I just let her make the choice of you tell me what you want.

Alex (39:05.149)

Yeah, that's a great example.

Brenda (39:12.417)

And that's the pace that we'll go at. And she chose to wait, and that's fine. So in the waiting, I have to trust that God is working. It's not like this person's healing is dependent upon me, that only if she comes back and sees me is she gonna be able to work through this. In fact, recognizing that if she comes back and sees me before she's ready, it's probably gonna do more harm than good. So I think...

Alex (39:15.729)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (39:21.82)

Right.

Right.

Alex (39:33.667)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's really good.

Brenda (39:36.437)

I think another just thought when we're talking about watching somebody or knowing when to push in a little bit or to step back is just monitoring their response, right? Do they need to take a break? Maybe we need to do some breathing with them. think even do we need to get up and go for a walk? You talked about a counselor you have that you just go walking with. I've got some people like that as well. And I think just in the context of even everyday meeting with your friends, your neighbors, whoever's coming to you.

Alex (40:00.028)

Hmm.

Brenda (40:06.981)

having that ability to just go for a walk and talk is so beautiful. There's just something about in walking and talking out in nature shoulder to shoulder that sometimes people can open up better than when you're sitting down across face to face, particularly when they're feeling shame, particularly when they're feeling maybe they're dealing with the self-contempt that so often traumatized people deal with. So again, this just goes back to helping them monitor how they feel in their body, what's going on with their own

Alex (40:23.325)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (40:36.281)

nervous system and recognizing some of the signs that could show that they're moving toward a dissociation or hyper arousal or just getting out of a place where they're in that state where they can stay with us, stay with themselves, stay in the story. And if they begin to move outside of that, then there's some clues that we can look to. Some people you might see their neck gets really red and rashy. Some people might get start getting real fidgety, not knowing what

Some people, their eyes may kind of start darting around. Some people may just get real quiet and stare down. You you're talking and they just look like they're a million miles away. So just picking up on some of those cues is, I think we need to be ready to do that.

Alex (41:20.736)

So I think it's important and I found myself more and more often teaching those concepts of the body and the nervous system first, like on the front end so that somebody begins to develop that awareness and then also applying the concepts of agency even right there with how somebody is responding to be able to say, where are you right now?

feeling? Could we take a minute and check in with your body? And then if they do recognize the response, ask them like what would feel good right now? Like you said, would it feel good to get up and take a walk? Would it feel good for us to breathe together? And so even in those ways, giving little choices back to them is a way of restoring that agency and feeling of being more in control of the situation. And even in that little space, even when they're not moving ahead in their story, we're giving them an opportunity

opportunity to have healing to have that rerouting of the brain back to safety.

Brenda (42:23.371)

Alright, so the final point that we had was just as the Spirit shows you that they're ready to name and address some of the issues like shame or abandonment or self-contempt or ambivalence or fear, whatever other emotions or state may be coming up, then we do want to gently talk and press in. It's not just listening, but it is a lot of listening, but it's also asking questions.

It's also addressing and helping them name some of the what you're hearing like giving language and vocabulary to what they're saying. Kind of that's whole concept that we've said a lot of times if you can name it you can tame it. And so allowing them and again just giving them I think vocabulary for their experience and then addressing what that experience is like and connecting them with the Lord in that experience.

Alex (43:07.711)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (43:20.708)

you

Yeah, I think it's important to say as the spirit shows you that they are ready because it can be hard to name these things and we need to be careful. I find it very hard to name abuse in people's story when they haven't named it first for me to push them there can often be very painful, but to walk with them into that again to suggest things without you know passing judgment like I want you would you be willing to consider that this is abusive relationship? Would you be willing?

only to consider that you are abandoned here. You know, those kinds of things instead of just naming it for them. And so there are just lots of ways that as you talked about gaining skill in in again, going back to our motto, gaining skill in seeing people well, gaining skill and having compassion over that and gaining skill and how we move towards people with our presence and with our words. And so I don't ever want that to scare people because I think

are ways that we can gain that skill and we can't gain that skill if we don't do it. We actually have to be willing to enter into the stories of people be willing to make mistakes if we're going to gain the skills.

Brenda (44:28.897)

That's right.

Brenda (44:38.645)

Well said. I think that's a good place for us to end, Alex, is you cannot gain the skill if you don't use the skill. So we're giving skills in this podcast and we are prayerfully hoping that each one of you will see that this is doable, that you can walk with other people in their trauma and really begin to see Jesus show up through you in the life of somebody else to bring about healing and wholeness

and more usefulness in their life as well. So the last podcast we're going to do will be our next one in this series and it's Caring for Yourself While Caring for Others because we really do need to understand that there is a weight in walking with people in their troubles, in their stories and...

You know, we need to know that what it looks like to remain healthy ourselves, to remain in safety, if we can even use that ourselves, in order to be healthy enough to continue to care for others because oftentimes the work of trauma is very relational and very long term. And so rarely do you just get to pop in and out, which means that you're gonna have to build your own resiliency yourself.

Alex (45:39.331)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (45:54.917)

All right.