Alex (00:05.846)
We're in our series.
called Story Matters, talking about the grand narrative, God's big story. And today we're gonna talk about the fact that you have a story, and that story takes place within God's story. And we're gonna look at the different elements of the grand narrative and how we can use them to be able to tell our story well. So Brenda, we've had fun with the grand narrative. And today, the first thing we wanna do is kind of locate ourselves in the story.
Brenda (00:35.349)
Yeah, I think you call this or theologians call this the now and not yet. Is that what you're referring to? Okay. So where are we in the story, Alex?
Alex (00:41.798)
Yes, so.
So we talk about this story starts with the prologue and then we see the creation, fall, redemption, restoration eras and we see the story arc of scripture being one that is moving from really from life, we call it life, new death into new life and the way that we locate ourselves in the story is we recognize that we live after the fall. We all kind of know instinctively
Brenda (01:14.585)
Mm-hmm. Heh heh heh. Heh heh heh.
Alex (01:15.208)
when we wake up in the morning and our bodies hurt, we recognize that we live in the fall, but we also live after redemption. And so I do this, if anybody can see me on the screen, because when I draw the arrows out, like the now and the not yet comes down off of the thing. So this is where we live right here, which is between, we're living in the fall, but we're also tasting the beginnings of the fruits of redemption that help us to know what's coming in restoration. And theologians do call that the now and the not yet.
yet some people like to call it the already and the not yet, that we're already experiencing some of the effects of what Christ purchased for us in redemption, but we have not yet fully experienced the restoration that is to come.
Brenda (01:59.549)
Yeah, and this really goes back to this idea of why we are able to hold or have to hold this tension between sorrowing and rejoicing.
in our hands because we just live back and forth in this place that there's a lot to rejoice over and there's a lot to be sorrowful over. And our stories reflect that. We have in our stories places that are very joyful and like you said we get that taste of heaven, but there are places still where our stories are very sad and very broken and quite frankly we wonder is it going to get better? Are things going to change? But one of the things I love about seeing our stories through the Grand Narrative is just how God's story does give structure
Alex (02:17.961)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (02:37.891)
to our stories and it really tells us, yes, there is a better day coming. Like, we can guarantee it's not a hope-so kind of hope. It is like a true fact there is a better day coming.
And today we just really want to talk about that in order to be good counselors, we don't just need to know God's story, but we need to be willing to share our true stories, the stories of our lives in the most true way, the way that God sees them. I think a lot of times when we think about telling our stories, we want to kind of mask our weaknesses or hide our weaknesses or not talk about the bad parts, like that's how God would tell the story. I think the scriptures really reflect that God is
Alex (03:17.834)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (03:20.091)
is a, he's a messy storyteller. He doesn't mind telling the messy parts of the story, right? But to tell our stories this way, it takes a lot of vulnerability and the very nature of vulnerability or that word means exposure. And I was reminded of this story in my life that I have held onto thinking about counseling and exposure and vulnerability. This summer will be 20 years ago that I went to my 20th high school reunion. So I'm dating myself here, okay?
Alex (03:24.551)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (03:46.732)
Ha ha ha!
Brenda (03:48.909)
But in order to look really good, I did some working out and then I had to go get my tan, had to get my tan on. And I'd never had a tan before. I have to say it was my first and my last tan experience. And after I tell you why, you'll understand. So yeah, the first thing they had me do was come in. It took me to the little room I had to undress. And then I had to go into this other small room that was just surrounded by shower curtains. And I am standing there naked.
Alex (03:56.052)
Mm-hmm. Hehehe.
Alex (04:01.247)
Hahaha!
Brenda (04:19.083)
and I'm like, okay, what's gonna happen next? Well, the next thing I know is this like 20 something year old, really cute Alex, really perky in every sort of way, very young, very perky girl comes in. And here I am with, you know, naked, had three C-sections, nurse three babies. I mean, the old gray mule, she ain't what she used to be. And this girl whips out her airbrush.
Alex (04:27.996)
Really young.
Alex (04:37.038)
Ha!
Ha ha!
Brenda (04:45.281)
with a generator now that's blowing cold air on me. Which created a whole nother set of issues, if you know what I mean. And she starts airbrushing me from top to bottom, turn around from bottom to top. And girl, I was so humiliated.
Alex (04:45.444)
Yes!
Alex (04:53.763)
Hahaha!
Alex (05:03.982)
Yeah
Brenda (05:06.073)
That level of exposure was just, it was terrible. But I do remember walking out of there saying, I never want to forget what this level of exposure and humiliation feels like on a physical level. Because honestly, Alex, in a lot of ways, that's what it feels like when we tell a hard part of our story and especially when we tell it the first time, right?
Alex (05:16.039)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (05:23.402)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (05:29.096)
Yeah, yeah.
Brenda (05:30.417)
And so we tell, I think one of the benefits of telling our story truthfully is, you know, we actually experience what it's going to be like for somebody else to tell their story, but it's hard because of the vulnerability it takes.
Alex (05:44.226)
Yeah, so it's a I'm not gonna say I was about to say it's a great picture maybe not It's a great illustration and you've um cured me of ever wanting to get a spray tan I don't know. I'm not taking the risk
Brenda (05:53.655)
There we go.
Brenda (05:58.573)
Surely, 20 years later, they're doing it much better now. I don't know. Just go to the tanning bed or the booth, you know, where you get to get in there by yourself. So, but don't listen to our episode about melanoma, right? Because we did that one too.
Alex (06:07.771)
Uh huh, yeah.
Alex (06:13.146)
That's right. That's right. That's exactly right. Yeah. So talk thinking about vulnerability. I want to make one distinction that vulnerability is not the same as transparency.
Brenda (06:24.857)
Mm.
Alex (06:25.726)
So transparency is a willingness to share my story with you, but vulnerability is telling you the impact that it has on me. And it goes back to what you said, Brenda, that vulnerability is about risk. It's about the fact that we put ourselves, that we expose ourselves to risk. And so we need to be able to make that distinction that there is a place for transparency and there's a place for vulnerability.
Brenda (06:34.861)
Mm.
Brenda (06:39.446)
Yep.
Brenda (06:43.833)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (06:54.176)
Yeah.
That's a really good point because we're not advocating that you should tell the details of your story to every person all the time. But I think that we need to be in a place that we know our story and can tell our story to ourselves and to God so that if we're called upon to share it with somebody else, we could do that as well. But, you know, again, when I think about God sharing his story, he doesn't hold back. He tells everything. And that's because, you know, I think that when we shrink back from the hardest or
Alex (06:59.56)
Right.
Alex (07:05.186)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Alex (07:12.194)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (07:24.823)
story, we really miss that opportunity to put the hero of our story on display, and that's Jesus. And that's exactly what God's story does. God doesn't leave out the messy parts because it's in those messy parts that really the light, the spotlight is put on the person and work of Jesus.
Alex (07:30.696)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (07:44.259)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
So with that lead in, it might feel a little scary to talk about telling your story. Yeah. And with that picture in your mind. Yes, illustrating. Yeah. But we want to make the argument that telling our story is helpful for many things. One, it helps us to know how to apply God's story to our everyday lives. So as we tell our story,
Brenda (07:53.287)
Right? Illustration. Think of a cartoon. Think of a cartoon. That'll help.
Alex (08:16.376)
we recognize those places that we don't align with God's story, and then we're able to apply His story to our lives. The other thing is that as we tell our story, we recognize the places that we don't align with God's story in our minds and the ways that we think about things. This is like what 1 Peter talks about of the feudal ways passed down from our forefathers. Often our story is being influenced by things that happened before we even came into the story.
Brenda (08:45.229)
That's right.
Alex (08:46.296)
we believe things or we know things or we accept things culturally in our families that actually are not what God says about us or what God says is true. So we recognize ways that we don't align with God's stories and truth but we also recognize maybe ways that our behavior doesn't align with God's story. And then telling our story helps us to walk with others in their story. As we are able to tell our own story, we're going to be able to listen
different way to other people's story. And all of that is gonna help build our faith. As we see God's plan of restoration come to life in our lives and in the lives of others, our faith is built. Like we're able to look back to the past in ways that he's met us. And then we're able to look forward to the future with hope and faith that he's gonna continue to do that. And that all of these things that we experienced in the fall are gonna be restored to us.
Brenda (09:29.668)
Hmm
Brenda (09:43.381)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think we also need to recognize that we need community, we need people, we can be intimate enough to tell our stories to because there are things about our stories that we don't even recognize or can give language to until somebody else comes along. And I'm thinking about a teaching, Alex, that you and I did together. And as I was sharing a part of my testimony, you made reference to the fact that I was date raped.
Alex (10:00.439)
Yeah.
Brenda (10:11.246)
And I remember being so stunned.
when you said that, because I had actually not even recognized that as a part of my story. And it really, just recognizing that changed so much about like, where was I responsible? Where was I not responsible? There was so many things about that. It was very, very disorienting for me for a moment, but it's helped me be able to see my story in a truer light and to tell my story in a better light.
Alex (10:15.84)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (10:20.938)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (10:34.281)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (10:38.523)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (10:44.459)
then we help somebody comprehend their own story better because of all the common themes of sin and suffering and we learn that we're not alone in our stories and that's one of the enemy's greatest, you know, seductions maybe or greatest lies he tells us or greatest ways to derail us is to tell us that we're alone, that nobody's experienced this. And then I just love, I know you and I both love the neurosciences, we loved having Dr. Kurt Thompson on and just
Alex (10:50.685)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (11:14.239)
this whole discipline of neuro theology, but neuroscience is really telling us the value of storytelling for the listener and the teller. It's been proven to foster greater relational connections because when we tell stories, it releases the bonding hormones that we have, and then it also increases our capacity for empathy by stimulating empathy networks in the brain. And a lot of times we find that, you know, if somebody hasn't
Alex (11:29.958)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (11:38.207)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (11:44.219)
told their story. I just think this whole idea of empathy, I was meeting with a woman who had a really terrible childhood, but she said, I just, I like zero to little empathy or compassion for other people. But she had never shared her story as the first person she shared her story with, and she had never, ever experienced her story the way God shared it and saw it, and was not able to receive his comfort, and so therefore didn't have comfort to give other people.
Alex (11:53.966)
Hmm.
Alex (12:08.222)
Absolutely, yeah, yeah. And I think you're touching on what Kurt Thompson talks about a lot is that right brain to right brain experience that we don't have a lot of those right brain to right brain experiences where we allow someone to, into our pain and know that they're feeling pain too because we're feeling pain and it's very bonding, very connecting. And when we think about our churches, we realize that a lot of our church experience
experience. It is thinking, analytical, all these things and not a lot of feeling and experiencing. So there's a great book that I love called The Other Side of Church that's even talking about how do we begin to integrate the right-brain experience into church and I think one of the main ways is telling our stories. I always advocate for testimony time in the worship service and just came from a women's retreat where I taught for four days and
Brenda (12:39.949)
Hmm.
Brenda (12:57.625)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yep.
Alex (13:08.116)
share their stories right it's always humbling but always also just reinforcing to what I'm teaching of like sharing your story is a powerful tool and those women will remember each other's stories far longer than they'll remember the facts and structures that I taught them because there's something there's also something that neuroscience tells us is that all areas of our brain light up when we tell story and when we hear story and so we were really
Brenda (13:09.544)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Brenda (13:30.23)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Alex (13:38.136)
that we can't learn just facts and figures. And so yeah, I think story is very important and needs to be incorporated more in our churches.
Brenda (13:41.197)
Yeah.
Brenda (13:49.025)
I agree with that and I like that you use the word testimony because I think so often we think about we have one testimony of how we've come to Christ. But every story we tell and any story we tell where we are actually able to engage the Lord and show the Lord working in our life in some way is a testimony to His faithfulness.
Alex (13:55.28)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (14:09.28)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (14:10.481)
And so, we need those stories all the time with one another. You know, in fact, some of the ways that I know I'll get through my story is because I just heard your story of God's faithfulness, you know. Well, it's sometimes, it's hard to tell our true stories and
Alex (14:20.426)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (14:28.869)
You know, I think one of the things we have to consider is what keeps us from telling other people our true stories. I think it's easy to keep the mask up. It's easy to tell stories in ways that we want people to view us as opposed to really getting real. So what do you think are some of the risks that we encounter or reasons why we don't share our stories truthfully or wholly?
Alex (14:41.745)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (14:51.027)
Yeah, I think we...
we feel first and foremost rejection that if we share that part of ourselves, someone will not want to be in relationship with us anymore. We share, we fear the shame that comes along with telling our story and, and ironically, even though we are, we are engaging with someone else, we fear the isolation that the shame or rejection could bring. And so, and then I hear a lot of people talk about, I don't, I don't want to tell my story cause I don't want to burden people.
Brenda (15:15.342)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (15:22.381)
Yep.
Alex (15:22.552)
I'm supposed to bear other people's burdens. It would be selfish for me to share my story. Kind of ignoring that part of Galatians 6 that says like bear one another's burdens and I always like to remind people like how are other people going to bear your burdens if you never tell anything about your story.
Brenda (15:31.225)
Mm-hmm. Heh, heh, heh.
Brenda (15:37.881)
Mm-hmm. That's right. Well, and I think this is one of the reasons people seek out professionals.
Alex (15:45.021)
Uh-huh.
Brenda (15:45.921)
because it's, when we talk about vulnerability and being at risk, well, there's no risk. And again, we've talked about, we're professional ministry counselors, and so we're not saying that that's bad or wrong, but I just think that maybe the strength or the health of our community, our faith community, is probably very much rooted in how risk-free is it to be vulnerable with one another. Can we really be truly known and still be truly loved?
So what will help us tell our stories more authentically? I think we have to think through, like, if there's great risk, then what's going to move us to safety? What's going to make it where we can be more real with one another?
And I know for me, the more that I've grown just in the love of Christ being anchored, that I am fully known and fully loved by Him. Like if the God of the universe sees me this way, then what does it really matter, Alex, how you see me, right? But I just think that with Him, there's no shame, there's no guilt, there's no fear of rejection.
Alex (16:36.506)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (16:43.093)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (16:52.254)
And I think to the degree that we can embrace or know or experience, and I do think it's an experiential knowing, like as we walk with God, we really come to know how much He does love us. Like He says He loves us, like God says He loves us, but I know He loves me as I do life and I see His love and I experience His love.
Alex (17:11.82)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (17:12.665)
So I think the more that we're rooted and anchored there, the more freedom, the more courage we're going to have to share our true story.
Alex (17:21.783)
Yeah.
Yeah, my counselors call this my dance move because I always say like we have to orient vertically first before we can orient horizontally and if we don't know that we're grounded in the love of God, it's going to be very difficult to move out in vulnerability in any sustained way. We may, we may venture out, but we won't venture out for long. And so that takes us back really to our episode on Lament. I really, I really believe that, that we experience that connection
Brenda (17:39.53)
Yeah.
Alex (17:52.28)
pour out our story to him. And so we have actually several podcasts on the mat that I think are helpful to know how to do that. But then we do need to seek out safe people who can hold our stories and they do need to be safe. They're you know we they need to be people who we believe can listen and understand that listening is a sacred act. It is sacred to hold someone's story.
Brenda (17:54.366)
Yes.
Brenda (18:17.025)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (18:22.4)
I've never told anyone this and when you enter into that sacred space where people are giving words to their experience for the first time with another person, we have to be able to hold that. We have to be able to tune well where we see them and hear them and then we have to be able to contain or hold what they've told us. We have to be able to create a place that we are not
Brenda (18:24.097)
Right?
Alex (18:52.96)
you know someone has said steward it well I think we talked about that earlier where we steward their story well because we're able to create a space where we're not afraid of the brokenness that they bring us we're not afraid of even the darkness oftentimes that is in people's story and that can be a very hard thing to do we have to hold on to ourselves in that time we have to be
Alex (19:22.24)
as we listen and then hold space for them to continue to be able to talk. And you know that's a sacred space because it opens up the spaces we've said before for the Holy Spirit. It's not just two of you in the room at that point. The Holy Spirit's there working and revealing our hearts of both revealing the hearts of both people not just the one speaking and telling us more about who we are and who God is and what our relationship to Him is really
Brenda (19:36.157)
Mm-hmm. That's right.
Brenda (19:42.677)
Yes.
Brenda (19:50.128)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (19:51.92)
if we're able to hold that space well for people.
Brenda (19:54.709)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, when you talk about holding the space well, or making space, I just think again if you haven't worked through your own story.
then you really have not made space for somebody else's story. And there will be things, you know, in your own story. I mean, I think one of the reasons we get overwhelmed is one, I want to have the answer, you know, as opposed to just, I think again, we're kind of taking this approach that if counseling is story work, then we don't always have to have the answer. Like, just knowing that God is doing something through the Holy Spirit, body and soul, just as we share our stories with one
Alex (20:17.056)
right?
Brenda (20:35.611)
and what he's done. Yeah, I just lost my train of thought.
Alex (20:39.946)
You know, I was thinking...
when you said that, you know, I've talked about Allender Center, but I don't know that I've ever been really specific, but there are three levels of what I did in Allender Center. The first level is you learning how to tell your story in a group. The second level is you're beginning to facilitate the group time and you're facilitating the way the group interacts with the storyteller. And it's still pretty focused on the storyteller. Like even though you're kind of practicing
facilitating. But level three is really interesting and in my opinion really genius because at level three other people are telling their stories and you're telling your story but when you facilitate the emphasis is not on what the storyteller just told the emphasis is actually on you as the as the facilitator. And now people are asking you questions like when they were talking about their relationship with their mom, what did that make you think because this happened with your mom and when they were saying about their
Brenda (21:30.389)
Hmm.
Brenda (21:40.994)
Hmm.
Alex (21:41.904)
because people now know your story so well, they're asking you how someone else's story is impacting you and can you be aware of that impact on you? Because if you can and you can hold your own emotions, you can engage with the person in front of you. And boy, you know, I've taught for years that listening is a set of skills and listening is a sacred thing, but I don't think I've ever experienced it to that level until people were asking me
Brenda (21:44.739)
Hmm.
Brenda (21:52.815)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (21:58.433)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (22:09.625)
Hmm.
Alex (22:11.884)
particular things about my story and how I was handling the information that was coming at me from the storyteller. And but wow what an amazing training that really what they were showing us is you don't lose yourself as you become a listener. You actually have to hold yourself and hold the person who's telling the story which is a really delicate dance that's guided by the
Brenda (22:14.361)
Mm-mm.
Brenda (22:20.208)
Hmm.
Brenda (22:23.885)
Yeah.
Brenda (22:33.037)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Alex (22:41.884)
that because if you disappear, the person knows it. Like if you if you check out because it's hard to hear what they're saying, they can feel it. And and the flip side of that, if you go all into them where they become just a problem for you to solve and you disappear in that way, like you don't want the story to touch you emotionally, you just want to solve their problem, they can they can feel that too. They just feel like a project. So listening is so
Brenda (22:48.7)
Mmm.
Alex (23:11.784)
much of a delicate art that I think we have to continually talk about how hard it is, how meaningful it is, and how holy it is.
Brenda (23:15.934)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (23:21.385)
That's so good as you're talking. You know, I just thought this necessity that we have to know God's story.
Alex (23:27.291)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (23:27.741)
And we've talked about the competing stories that come in as we are making sense of our stories. You know, we come out of God's story and then God brings us back into his story. And so we bring two stories when we are listening to somebody else's story, we bring God's story and we bring our story, whether or not we're living out of our story, his story in our story, if that makes sense. And and because we're perceivers and because of the way that we make assumptions and the beliefs that we bring as we're listening.
Alex (23:48.237)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (23:58.295)
as we begin to move toward actually ministering with words to somebody, if our story hasn't already been, I don't know for lack of better words, maybe arrested or come under the loving control or in some ways been, you know, comforted or touched by God, then I think it really inhibits our ability to listen to somebody's story and then to have anything meaningful to say when the right time comes to speak. So...
Alex (24:22.676)
Yeah.
Brenda (24:24.469)
Well, you know, Jesus is always the point of the story. Alex, we know that. He's our model and he's our motivation for storytelling. Jesus was in fact a brilliant storyteller himself. But I just think about in our world and in the midst of so many hero stories, Jesus didn't come to tell us a different story, but he came to give us a better story.
Alex (24:51.427)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (24:52.097)
and he left heaven and made himself completely vulnerable. And he chose to fully expose himself that we could have intimacy with the Father. And by him coming to earth, leaving heaven and exposing himself, he's able to empathize in our weaknesses. And when we have truly received his comfort, then we can comfort others with the comfort we have received.
And so I think it's just this beautiful model and motivation and this understanding of all of this story work really just takes us more into walking with Jesus deeply, more intimately.