Brenda (00:03.182)
Hi Alex. Work with me here, Alex. Yeah, good to see you.
Alex (00:05.727)
Brenda.
Alex (00:09.711)
And to throw that in there. You keep me on my toes. Good to see you.
Brenda (00:18.118)
Excited about continuing on our series of Story Matters. We've been having a lot of fun trying to communicate an idea that can be a little bit harder, but we say that once you have it in your mind, it can just become such a beautiful framework. And we've also been talking about the fact that we've spent some time thinking about these concepts, looking at them in light of our lives and the lives of others. And so we don't want people to feel overwhelmed. Hopefully we haven't added to
Alex (00:22.069)
Uh-huh.
Brenda (00:47.952)
anybody's confusion too badly up to this point. Oh, and we'll try not to today as we enter into competing stories, which is taking us kind of to the next idea when we talk about the grand narrative or God's big story. So far we've established that God's story is one story that provides a comprehensive and unified view of reality and explains the purpose and meaning of life.
Alex (00:49.703)
Hahaha
Alex (00:58.248)
Hmm.
Brenda (01:17.912)
God's story is the only true story, the only true story of the whole world. And we're gonna look at how each part of God's story answers some of the biggest questions that every person wants to know. And we would call this a worldview. It's made up of our beliefs and assumptions that we hold that shape or our outlook on life. And I think it's interesting to me that not only do we have kind of this innate desire for hero stories, that God has put that in our
to make sense of life. And so when we start talking about these big worldview questions, we're not just talking about questions that Christians ask, we're talking about questions that all people ask and how all people are trying to get to find answers for these questions.
Alex (01:49.516)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (01:56.376)
Right.
Alex (02:05.683)
Yeah, I think we've said this many times before but Paul Tripp says we're all meaning makers. So as people, humans, we are trying to make meaning of our lives. We are telling ourselves a story every day. And so what we believe is that God's story gives us the answers to these big questions of life and they become like the big rocks that need to be in place that help us make meaning of our lives. I think it's going to make a lot more sense in the particular when we unpack it and also when people can see it written out. So we have a handout.
kind of puts all this in a chart, but the main worldview questions are go according to the parts of the story. So of course the first part of the story is the prologue and the prologue is our orientation to what is truth, who defines reality. It's an authority question and it's like we said it's a question that everyone is asking. The creation is our formation and that tells us who we are
a joke question of like, why am I here? What am I doing, what's my purpose, and who am I?
The fall is the affliction part of our story where we really ask why do I have to suffer? Why is life so hard? I think that is a big question. It does not take us long to live on this earth before we realize that life is hard and we're going to be asking the question why? Why does it have to be so hard? And then the redemption question is comes out of the fall really because it's the question of salvation. Like who's going to save us from this hardship? Who's going to
provide rest or refuge? I messed that up. Refuge and rescue. I can't get my words up today. Who's going to provide refuge and rescue in this suffering, in this affliction? And then restoration is kind of that big question of what is our ultimate? What's our ultimate hope? What's our ultimate goal? Like what are we living towards? What, how are we living towards peace
Brenda (03:47.985)
Hehehehehehe
Alex (04:10.197)
And that's a question we call it of aspiration, that idea of where is this all headed? What are we aiming for? And what keeps us going?
Brenda (04:23.35)
Yeah, and on our chart, it'd be really helpful if you have the chart maybe in front of you because you'll be able to see how we put this together. But we also talk about what our main ideas or what we might call even counseling connections. In other words, these are the big rocks, the big worldview questions that the story answers. But then we know that we have all these other we have all these other parts of our story. So like in creation, we have marriage, we have work, we have rest, we have a lot, you know, family. There's a lot of things there. And if we go into the fall part of the story, we get into some of
Alex (04:41.19)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (04:53.304)
the specifics of where we see why we suffer because we're sinners and because we live in a fallen world and because other people sin against us and again we see stories that we can relate to and we have commandments that are given and promises and then you know the same with redemption and so forth so we've got these big worldview ideas but then we also have kind of these main ideas underneath those categories as well and what we want to do is look at the
Alex (04:56.169)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (05:16.777)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (05:23.484)
we have a story but there are also other stories out there. And you know our worldview is our interpretive lens. If we can think of it's like literally like glasses we put on and how we answer the worldview questions really depends on our lens. Which glasses we are putting on. And any competing story is going to you know that tries to explain life or the meaning of life or what's wrong with the man or what's going to save man that's outside of what God said
Alex (05:27.789)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (05:35.34)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (05:53.884)
is truth and reality is in fact a competing story. I think I said that, did I say that right? We're both kind of tongue twisted today, I think. But the reality is all these other stories, I kind of like to look at God's story as maybe being a little bit of an umbrella of this is God's story. And then when we go into competing stories, we kind of leave out from under that umbrella. And then God's story is what brings us back up under the umbrella of his love, of his kingdom.
Alex (06:01.212)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (06:10.709)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (06:19.847)
Yeah.
Brenda (06:23.764)
of his, you know, the big story of the Bible. And we have to recognize that there's been, since the Garden of Eden, Alex, you know, the enemy has sought to undermine God's story and infiltrate the world with counterfeit stories. When Moses was writing the five books of the Bible, the first five books, you know, it was against the backdrop of a lot of other cultures, especially Egypt. And Egypt had thousands of gods and
Alex (06:49.836)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (06:53.944)
that dictated what the people were supposed to believe and how they were supposed to live and how they were supposed to treat each other. And we have to remember God's people spent 400 years being indoctrinated in Egyptian beliefs and culture.
Alex (07:04.476)
Hmm.
Brenda (07:08.318)
and then Moses comes in and like, bam, shazam. I'm gonna tell you this one true story in the midst of all these competing stories. I think sometimes we read the Bible like this is the only story that's ever been around or this was the first story that was around. It's like, no, when Moses introduces the story in Genesis he's introducing it at a time where God's people are coming out of a place where they've really been indoctrinated. And so he's answering now
Alex (07:12.231)
Hahaha!
Alex (07:36.033)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (07:38.312)
all these worldview questions for them based on God's story. And I do want to just recommend the Bible Project series has a series called Ancient Cosmology, which is basically the stories of origin. And so we'll link that to the show notes as well, but if you kind of just want to know more about some of the backdrop to which the story came into, I think it's really fascinating and really helpful for us to understand the context.
Alex (07:45.866)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (07:57.095)
Hmm.
Alex (08:05.163)
I have not seen that one but everything they did was good and I think like you said we can forget that the that when we read the Bible we can forget that this wasn't the only story in the culture and so I need to watch that Bible project. Uh huh. Hmm.
Brenda (08:08.586)
Yep.
Brenda (08:16.962)
bright.
Brenda (08:20.856)
That's a series. I think there's seven in the series. Really helpful.
Alex (08:26.071)
So you said when you were talking that we all have a lens and we each have our own unique lens. I think we need to remember that just like our glasses are kind of made for us. We have this unique lens and it's influenced by a myriad of other sources. And so we're kind of putting those in two categories. Like we're putting them in the category of cultural and personal. And so what are some cultural influences that shape our thinking that you could think of, Brenda?
Brenda (08:56.45)
I mean, I think the first one that definitely comes to my mind is social media. And it's quote unquote influencers.
Alex (09:00.079)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they're literally called influencers, so we can, mm-hmm.
Brenda (09:05.07)
They are. And it is, you know, of course I come from a different generation and so, you know, the fact that somebody can speak well and, excuse me, the fact that somebody can speak well and looks good and has an opinion doesn't necessarily make them an expert on any given subject. And especially I know, you know, one of our previous series we just talked about how wisdom is kind of this idea of knowledge and experience coming together and something that's often lacking.
Alex (09:22.716)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (09:31.008)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (09:35.084)
and realize how much, and with the algorithms that begin to then feed you, the things that you know, you're already looking up, and just all the things that are going on with social media. That's a huge cultural factor for us.
Alex (09:38.82)
Yes.
Alex (09:48.655)
Well, I have to bring a little balance because I think our generation and older wants to talk about the influence of social media on the younger generation. But if we're going to be fair, there is also an, I think an equal technological influence on older generations, which is 24-7 news. And I think that like a lot of older people can just rail on the younger people in social media, but they forget that they've got news running in their house sometimes all day long and they think it's not influencing us.
Brenda (10:06.457)
Oh, greed.
Brenda (10:15.71)
Yes.
Alex (10:19.73)
So we're going to give equal billing here to each one. Yes right. That's right. We'll leave no person unaffended.
Brenda (10:24.707)
Yeah. Uh, let's see. Equal insulting opportunities here. Yeah.
Brenda (10:31.75)
Exactly. No, I think you make a great point. I mean, every generation has it. It's interesting to me, you know, just the power of influence with the pen or now with, you know, whether it's written media, whether it's spoken media, whether it's visual media, it is just very powerful because words are very powerful and words shape worldview, right? They influence. So I think about other things like advertising, you know, we're told this is
Alex (10:36.519)
Right.
Alex (10:42.778)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (10:52.651)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Brenda (11:01.484)
you are or you're not going to be who you want to be or this is your purpose through advertising. Entertainment kind of has that same ability to shape the way we think, the music we listen to, the movies we watch. And again, you know, not all the shaping is bad either. Some of the shaping is really good and really inspiring. I happen to love a lot of entertainment and I definitely love, you know, I'm kind of a docu-series kind of girl, but I love real-life stories and a lot of times those are so inspirational, either telling me like this is really
Alex (11:17.003)
Right, yeah. All right.
Alex (11:26.033)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (11:31.947)
This is not good.
Alex (11:32.739)
Right, yeah.
Yeah, and then we think about personal influences, things like our family of origin or our socioeconomic background, which can become kind of, there's some that kind of cross over this cultural and personal, they kind of bleed together. So socioeconomic background, ethnicity, even our family of origin, where we're situated geographically can become a cultural and a personal. What other personal influences do you see on our lens?
Brenda (12:06.102)
Well, I mean, I think just friendships, you know, relationships, because we're talking, we're talking out life in relationships. And so as I'm talking to you, Alex, I'm picking up your views. I'm picking up your worldview, your cultural and your personal views. And that's a positive and a negative, right? Like this, or it's neither positive nor negative, I guess, depending on whether it lines up with God's story is going to determine, you know, what direction it goes in. You know, I think just even traumatic experiences, the way we experience hard times, hardships
Alex (12:12.662)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (12:20.742)
Right?
Alex (12:25.836)
Right. Yeah.
Alex (12:31.879)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (12:36.016)
really begin to put a different kind of lens on us. Maybe if you've been hurt by men, then maybe that lens is all men are bad, or whatever it might be. And then I just think even just messages we tell ourselves become part of that personal influence of the view that we have of the world around us and the people around us as well. So I love what, go ahead.
Alex (12:39.56)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (13:01.507)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was gonna say I think the thing about it is like we could we could probably list these for the rest of the podcast because it can it become can become very unique your position in the family Your occupation even becomes a lens that you see things through So there are all these different influences on our lens And I think what makes it hard is that we our lens is so firmly in place We don't realize that we're wearing that lens
Brenda (13:09.591)
Yep.
Brenda (13:18.242)
Yeah.
Brenda (13:29.899)
Yes.
Yeah, and that's really, really hard because a lot of it is more caught than taught. Like my parents didn't sit down and say, this is the worldview we have. And I don't walk around really thinking about my worldview. You know, it's not at the forefront of my mind going, hmm, what am I thinking right now? Which worldview does that match up with? I'm just kind of going through my life with beliefs and assumptions, taking in information, making meaning of that based on what's already there. And so, and to be, to be honest,
Alex (13:41.055)
Right.
Alex (13:45.085)
Right.
Alex (13:50.841)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (13:58.567)
Right.
Brenda (14:00.672)
you right it changes and it needs to change if we're Christians that we need to be we need to be getting rid of some things that aren't in line with what God says and replacing those things with a more godly focus so our infant new information and new experiences can change us along the way and I love what researcher George Barnas talks about he says most Americans blend their beliefs to create a customized worldview right so in this worldview is just a little
Alex (14:12.685)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (14:18.9)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (14:25.658)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (14:30.512)
Mix it all together in the pot and see what comes out. And I will have to say, I mean, I think there's just that part of all of us that a customized worldview can also lend itself more toward like there maybe is no authority in my life or I get to determine whatever I think is right for me. And we see that, of course, very much in our culture and in all, since the Garden of Eden.
Alex (14:34.412)
Right, right.
Alex (14:53.383)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (14:59.207)
Yeah, I think this can feel really discouraging and I think there is a good warning here. Like we do have to remember that we have this lens that we see the world through and ours is unique and that we have to be careful that we don't call our unique interpretive lens the interpretive lens. Like it is not the way to see the world and that's why we think the series is so important
Alex (15:29.261)
what God says about the world and then take our lens, take what we believe back to that constantly and just I think that's why this teaching became so paradigm shifting for me is because it was like oh like we actually do have a way to begin to see what our lens is and then put the lens of truth
Alex (15:59.281)
these absolute statements when we haven't, when God's not saying them. When God's not saying these absolute things, then we have to recognize that like we're viewing some of these things through our lens and we have to be careful not to make the absolute statements ourselves because that's where we start to get in trouble that we're actually seeing things from our cultural viewpoint, from our even the fact that we're men or women or where we how our church uniquely taught these things and so it becomes
both a warning and a hope that we have a way of seeing things, that God has given us His Word in order for us to understand the world the way He does, to understand the world rightly.
Brenda (16:41.842)
Yes, he's given us a corrective lens and yeah, a corrective lens.
Alex (16:44.763)
That's a good way to say it.
Brenda (16:49.25)
Well, we thought we would go back to the storyboard of God's storyboard, his story, and maybe look at one competing view that we can see in American culture, and that's our view of happiness. So we want to kind of walk through, like when we think about an American view of happiness and how it competes with God's view of what he says, true joy, true peace, what Shalom looks like, we just wanted to take kind of this thread of happiness from an American cultural view and pull it.
through. So when we think about Alex Prologue, which is what defines truth and who defines reality, what would we say that the American culture, how does the American culture speak into that?
Alex (17:20.698)
Mm-hmm
Alex (17:32.083)
Well, I think the American culture is highly individualistic. We're known as a nation of individuals. And so the beginning of the story for most Americans is me. Like I get to decide what makes me happy and there's not a lot of maybe even accountability in our American story. We get to do what you always say, we get to bring it all back to ourselves and American cultural view of happiness.
Brenda (17:57.144)
Hehehe
Brenda (18:03.546)
Yes, well, if we move on to the creation part of an American view of happiness, speaks to who we are and what is our purpose. The first thing that comes to my mind is just that we find so much meaning in what we produce. And so this idea of I am what I do. I am what I am able to bring to...
Alex (18:17.483)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (18:25.942)
Yeah, to bring to the world, to bring to this situation, very industrious, very achievement oriented. Like I think that's a lot of where we find happiness, where we find meaning in the American culture. Would you agree?
Alex (18:40.019)
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think like we're about the pursuit of happiness and we think we find it through our productivity, through how hard we can work and how we begin to define ourselves by, like you said, by our accomplishments.
Brenda (18:58.27)
Yeah, and I'm all about work hard, play hard. And that's the great American dream. Let me work hard and then let me play harder. Yeah, yes.
Alex (19:01.223)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and Americans are mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah
And that means even like our rest, like we don't have a great paradigm for rest in American culture. We have a paradigm for amusement because amusement distracts us from work, but not necessarily a biblical view of like rest as recreation or recreating ourselves. And so rest becomes just distraction more than real biblical rest.
Brenda (19:34.898)
Yeah, absolutely. Well then if we look in the fall part of the story, you also talk about a paradigm for suffering in our culture. What would you say?
Alex (19:43.987)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Well, I mean, I have to get back to and agree with particularly maybe one of the most recent books is Tim Keller's book on suffering, walking with God through pain and suffering, I think is what it's called. But he talks about the fact that we as Americans really don't have a paradigm for suffering. We don't have a good understanding of why we suffer or what to do with the suffering when it comes. And so therefore we do everything we can not to suffer. Happiness really does become our aim. Comfort, ease becomes our aim.
we do everything we can to distract ourselves from suffering or to numb ourselves out when we do suffer. So we see a lot of addictions and over indulgence whether that's food or shopping or sex or substances and we even begin to engage in relationships as a way to look at how people can help us
Alex (20:46.557)
just you're here to make me happy and so yeah it's very interesting to unpack Tim Keller unpacks in that book that other traditional cultures have paradigms for suffering they may not be a biblical paradigm excuse me they do have a paradigm for suffering and then without that without one Americans are left not knowing where to turn when they suffer but that just to inject here like that's why I believe that's why you and I both believe suffering is such a great
place for Christians to enter into people's lives because we do bring a paradigm for suffering and we do have a Savior who's willing to suffer and so we just have a wonderful opportunity to enter into a place of suffering when our culture is not giving an answer for why do we suffer we can.
Brenda (21:18.358)
Yes.
Brenda (21:23.787)
Yes.
Brenda (21:36.37)
Amen to that. And that leads us just right into the next part of the story and that's redemption. You know, where do we as in our American tradition, so to speak, typically look for a rescue, a refuge, the resources to get us through the journey. And I think it just, we can go back to some of the things we've already talked about. We're trying to cover our suffering, to cover our pain, to cover our shame, busyness and addictions and distractions and accolades of men.
Alex (21:58.669)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (22:05.904)
I'm a self-made man, I'm a self-made woman. It's very, very much wrapped up in self. And it's very, very opposite of what the gospel says of where we need to go to look for salvation.
Alex (22:16.635)
Mm-hmm. And then finally, where do we look for our hope and peace as Americans and our view of happiness is I think we see when I'm happy and the people I love are happy, then I'm going to have peace and I'm going to have wholeness and that just kind of again when we look at we look at an American view of happiness we see like I need to be happy and those around me need to be happy.
Brenda (22:43.85)
which is an unsustainable.
hope in a fallen world. Right? Like, there's never a time I'm going to always be happy and all my people are always going to be happy. It just ain't going to happen on this side of heaven. I think what would be really interesting for our listeners is maybe to take this and now with what we've been teaching that they could go back and write, well, what is God's paradigm for joy and peace and, you know, what the Bible would call shalom? Like, go back through the story.
Alex (22:49.212)
Yes
Alex (22:53.734)
Yeah.
Alex (23:05.095)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (23:12.053)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (23:16.348)
mindset, well this is this is man's kingdom, what does joy and peace and wholeness look like in the context of God's story? And so rather than giving those answers, we're gonna let you do the work and go back from what you learned from the series and see can you map that on to this paradigm of God's story.
Alex (23:27.181)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (23:30.957)
Right?
Alex (23:38.799)
Yeah, and I just want to say like when we did this, Brenda, we're not trying to be critical of Americans. We're just trying to recognize number one, if you're American and you're hearing this and you think I don't view happiness that way, that's because of what we said earlier, you have your own unique interpretive lens. What we were looking at as if you look at America across the world, that we Americans do tend to have a particular view of happiness. And even if you don't think you've been influenced by that.
if you grew up in this country to some degree you probably have even if your family didn't adopt this view of happiness through advertising marketing people you know like we are all influenced by this and again we did this just to be able to take one thing that would feel common to all of us and be able to walk through it to be able to show in the particular what a competing worldview looks like but there are lots of ways to be able to recognize
views so we can we can pick up I think we encouraged people in a previous episode to begin to look for the rhythm of God's story in other stories we would also encourage people to look at the competing worldview that's being given in other stories so if you pick up a book or if you watch a movie to be able to see what worldview is being portrayed there one of the places I used to do
children were little is I was a mom that let my kids watch the Disney movies but they knew that when the Disney movie was over I was gonna turn it off and we were gonna talk about it and it was amazing to see that from actually pretty young there were things that my kids could begin to understand didn't line up with what they were learning about God's Word and we would begin to compare the Disney story to God's story. There's some wonderful ways that Disney
Brenda (25:36.936)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (25:38.453)
things about God's story. I mean there's always a search for redemption there's a hero and some and a lot of those heroes display Christlike qualities but they're also ways that Disney stories compete with God's story and that's what we would talk about. My kids would groan as soon as the movie was over and I would turn off the TV because they knew the discussion that was coming.
Brenda (25:39.694)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (26:01.784)
Okay, so the moral of the story is don't torture your kids, just kind of sneak it in. Sneak it in.
Alex (26:04.747)
Don't torture them. Yeah, how do you be a little more subtle than I was? Yeah.
Brenda (26:10.774)
Well, I did the same thing similar with a book club one time, and I really liked it. We would pick secular books.
and then we would read them with this in mind, like where is, what worldview. And I was thinking, one, what a great tool this is, whether you're in a book club or a movie club, to be able to watch or read and then sharpen your ability to, one, rejoice and praise God for what is good in the story, what mimics God's story, but also to be listening and identifying where the competing stories are coming in. And honestly, Alice, I think it'd be a great evangelistic tool, because you don't have to bring
Alex (26:20.475)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (26:31.596)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (26:37.772)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (26:46.865)
Yeah.
Brenda (26:47.832)
else and say we're going to compare everything to God's story but you can lay out like there's this is a pattern for storytelling. I mean we know this just from the hero's journey, a way of looking at story and so I think it could just be really fun and interactive to get a group of people together and say now we want to just go through and allow for everybody's worldview in an evangelistic opportunity that you get to share your worldview and I get to share mine as we come together and we talk. So I don't know I just like that idea. Maybe I'll do that.
Alex (26:58.237)
That's right.
Alex (27:10.653)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (27:18.291)
Yeah, and I really like that you mentioned like we can start with where
Brenda (27:18.578)
Yeah. Ha ha ha.
Alex (27:22.535)
that we agree, like that's just such a good place to start and to not just skip to where we disagree, but that God's story gives us a place where we can recognize where we agree, what we hold in common, and then we can move into what's competing. I think that's what Paul did in the New Testament church. He'd go into these cities and he'd find the places where he found commonality and he would start there. It's the way our brains work best, like how we learn best is to start with what we know and then move to what we don't know
Brenda (27:24.459)
Yes.
Alex (27:52.829)
I also think it's just a real engaging, winsome way to talk to people and bring them into this idea that God has a big story and that we want to bring them into that orientation. So let's start with what they know and where their story lines up and then let's move to where there's some differences.
Brenda (28:11.87)
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
Well, guys, this has been really fun. I've really enjoyed this episode and so sharpening and so encouraging as well, just this reality that we actually own the only true story of the world because God has given that to us, believers, and we need to know His story. We need to have it as that interpretive grid or lens as we filter competing stories in our own life. And then I think as we listen to others,
Alex (28:15.93)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (28:20.315)
Mm-hmm
Brenda (28:43.864)
for those competing stories to help bring them back into God's story, to help them not only know a better story but to live a bigger story, which is just the beautiful way that God has intended for us to live. Like, again, the good story, the best story is God's story and it's the story that is lived out of His story that is going to be the best story of all.
Alex (28:54.741)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (29:10.146)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, when you're saying that you're reminding me that when Marty Solomon was on and talking about just God's story, Marty Solomon is the host of the BayMai podcast and he's always challenging his listeners to trust the story, trust the story. And that's really the invitation of every person we encounter and ourselves is will we trust God's story. And so we hope that
Alex (29:40.905)
one where people are gaining familiarity with God's story and also that they are because of that familiarity able to identify these places where they're not trusting the story because other competing stories have pulled them away from God's story and one of the things I want to encourage people is that when I taught this material recently to a group of people my pastor Adam came in
the group and I asked him the question, I hope I hadn't already shared this, but I asked him the question, how many times did you need to hear this material before it began to really gel to the point that it became a framework that you could use, that you could think through? And he said probably four or five times. And so I just want to encourage people if you're hearing this for the first time, it feels abstract, it feels unfamiliar, and therefore it feels
don't need to be able to do this to this level of engaging with competing stories right away. You're gonna have to continue to engage with God's story. You're gonna have to practice so to speak thinking through this paradigm and it will come together particularly if you will interact with it. It will come together in your mind and you will find yourself being able to think through this
Alex (31:11.126)
and recognize what's competing. So don't lose heart, persevere, keep going, and allow yourself to wrestle through the uncomfortable part of not understanding this.
Brenda (31:22.066)
Yeah, I want to say one more thing, Alex, and that is you have a class, a six-week class that you take people through and our hope is to actually record that class and make it available on our website, which will just be a tremendous asset for people who want to go back and actually be able to see your stick drawings and evaluate your artwork.
Alex (31:26.44)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (31:44.031)
I feel like you're doing this to hold me accountable and I really appreciate what you're doing.
Brenda (31:48.678)
I am holding you accountable because I know some people who have taken the class and said it was excellent. So hopefully we'll get that up and make that available to people as well.