Season 6 Episode 6: Ginger Jacks

Brenda (00:04)

Hello Alex. Hi, good to be with you again today.

Alex (00:05)

Hello.

Brenda (00:10)

We're going to continue our help series on how to walk through and with someone in some of life's, what we're calling most challenging struggles or situations. And it's our privilege today to have our dear friend Ginger Jax to join us to talk about her journey of profound grief and losing a child. Love to tell everybody a little bit about our friend. Ginger has been married to Kevin for 32 years. Woohoo!

Alex (00:38)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (00:40)

She's the mother of three children, a daughter and two sons, and she is notably a grandmother of three children under the age of three, so she's busy in that world. She is a woman that we know has always been deeply committed to the Scriptures and to the honor and glory of Christ, evidenced by her 23 years of leadership in Bible study fellowship and just watching her walk her life out.

ginger jacks (00:49)

Mm.

Brenda (01:09)

her certification in biblical counseling to be able to even just use her story more in the lives of parents and even widows that have lost someone dear to them that they love. So she now has a counseling practice in Montgomery, Alabama called Hope in the Unseen, which I love. The name of your ministry, Ginger.

Ginger, it's so good to have you with us today and I was reminded that it's been 13 years since Virginia went to be with the Lord and she would have been 30 by Earth years. I'm not sure how heavenly years work, but your story touches our families so deeply because at the time of Virginia's home going, we were very closely knit together in friendship and in church and in our school community. I really don't know that there's a September that doesn't go.

Alex (01:39)

Hmm.

Brenda (02:00)

by that at some point my daughter KK who was really good friends with Virginia and a teammate and Paul and I don't reflect on the fact that wow it's been this many years or it's been you know that long and I was talking to KK my daughter recently and you know every time we talk about this I feel like we just have always have the burning tears in our eyes and still feel that gut punch you know and my daughter said this about Virginia I just said you know we're doing this podcast.

Alex (02:12)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (02:30)

something that you remember about Virginia to share. And she said, mom, while me and my friends talked about Jesus, Virginia talked and walked with Jesus.

ginger jacks (02:41)

Mm.

Brenda (02:42)

And she said she was the kindest, most humble and funny, kind of zany, silly girl. And she was that girl, the one who lit up the room. And KK said everyone wanted her to say that they were her best friend, right? She was that girl. It's like, I'm your best friend. She's my best friend. And I do think that one of the things that made it harder for all of us was, you know, her age, for one, being so young. But also she was just such an amazing young woman.

Alex (02:56)

Hehehehe Hmm

Brenda (03:11)

and there was a feeling that her life was really, you know, cut short. And I know for my family it was the first time that we had really walked through a tragedy like this. And I can remember coming to the hospital the night that Virginia passed and honestly not knowing what to do or what to say. And so I'm excited about a podcast like this that maybe can help our listeners who have dealt with

loss, do it better than hopefully we did it at that time. But losing a loved one, especially a child, feels like an unbearable trial. And we would love for you to share a little bit about your story about Virginia the day that she went to be with Jesus and a bit about your initial grief.

ginger jacks (03:55)

Mm-hmm.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was 2010.

She had just turned 17 in August and she went to an Auburn game with a friend. And on the way back, she called me and said she was headed back. She was in a car accident. She was the only one, there were four in the car that was taken home to be with the Lord. And we did not know until we got up to Auburn, we had heard that she was in an accident, but we didn't know until we were up at the hospital that she actually had gone to be with the Lord.

that you know you hear stories of people that have gone through tragedies and you feel for them, but when it happens to you.

It was overwhelming. It gave me such a compassion too for the others that had gone through it that I had never known what they were struggling with. But it was overwhelming. Overwhelming. And so we got in the car. Actually Brenda came up and some of my friends and our pastor and we talked to them and then we came in the car and came home and saw Kirby.

and he was 15 at the time and my son Bowen turned 12 on the day of her funeral. So my other kids were fairly young but the journey was, it was unreal, was very deep, very heavy and I'll never forget Bowen was asleep

the night that it happened and so the next morning when he came in he had no idea and we told him he wept.

and he asked us to question. It was very powerful because we always, when you lose a child or go through any tragedy, you always want to go through the what-ifs. What if we had not let her go to the game? We actually, Kevin and I had stayed up all night going through the what-ifs and so, you know, Bowen composed himself and then he said, can I ask you a question? And we said, sure Bowen, and he said, when God decided when Virginia was born,

powerful question and Kevin said yes son and Psalm 139 it says he ordains our days. He and so he said well can I ask y'all one more question? We said sure and he said was there anything we could have done to change it? We said no there wasn't and so he left and went back in the house and Kevin said I think the

Brenda (06:22)

Wow.

Hmm.

ginger jacks (06:51)

we could go back to but yes it's very heavy.

Brenda (07:00)

Ginger, for our people, our podcast community listening, what would you say are the best way, the best way people can respond and minister in those immediate days following a tragedy of losing a child?

ginger jacks (07:19)

Well, you know, you're in shock. You know, for weeks you're in shock. I don't know, months. Everyone is different. You know, some people want to go off and be by themselves. You know, they grieve that way. Some people want to be with people all the time. That would be me.

and my husband Kevin wanted to just go to the country. He's a big hunter and he just wanted to spend that alone time with the Lord. But for people, I guess my advice, whatever their experience, and if they wanna go to lay in bed, go lay in bed with them. If they wanna go out to lunch, go to lunch with them. If they wanna cry, cry with them. If they wanna laugh, laugh with them. Just watch their mood and try to move in next to it.

them because I think so many friends want to get them out of the grief or how can I do that and really they just need your presence you know it's like Job's friends they were doing great until they started speaking and I think that's the same way with and I had really close friends that just

Alex (08:09)

Mm.

Brenda (08:25)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (08:26)

Mm.

ginger jacks (08:32)

were there. They let me talk when I wanted to talk about it and if I didn't, they didn't bring it up. So I think that was really helpful for me.

Alex (08:43)

When you say that Ginger, it reminds me of maybe what not to do also. And I remember a conversation with you probably many years later. And it seemed like people had a timeline in their mind that you needed to be on that of what grieving should look like for you and wanted to kind of move you on their timeline.

Did you hear that?

ginger jacks (09:22)

Uh-uh, she froze.

Alex (09:24)

I don't know. I'm gonna start with my question. I'm gonna start my question again. So Ginger, when you say what's helpful, it reminds me of some things that might not be helpful. And I'll always remember a conversation you and I had at Starbucks one day, many years later I think.

ginger jacks (09:28)

Okay.

Alex (09:46)

And it seemed like what was the most unhelpful was that people had a timeline for your grief. Like they wanted to move you along a timeline that they had in their mind for you.

ginger jacks (09:55)

Mmm.

I'm sorry, I can't hear.

Alex (10:17)

Oh, did it cut out again?

ginger jacks (10:19)

What was your qu- Yeah.

Alex (10:24)

It's cutting out for me too. And I do not understand what is it saying about my internet Malia?

Brenda (10:28)

I think it's only cutting out for you, Alex.

Alex (10:52)

Yeah.

Brenda (10:55)

Yeah, it is.

Alex (10:55)

Yeah.

ginger jacks (10:56)

Now it is, now you're moving around.

Yes, sorry.

Uh huh.

Uh huh. Yeah.

So.

Alex (11:48)

So you just cut out again.

Oh, wait a minute.

It's not on our network.

I don't know. Okay, I'm gonna switch networks. It's not on my network.

ginger jacks (12:13)

friends, a neighbor.

Brenda (12:15)

I'll be your neighbors.

ginger jacks (12:19)

Oh yeah!

Yeah.

Alex (12:29)

So weird. Okay, so what happened was when I lost internet about two, about a week and a half ago, they gave me a temporary network and it had flipped to that.

ginger jacks (12:44)

Oh, I see.

Alex (12:51)

It's not my internet though. The problem's never been the internet. The problem was the Eero, the booster. And so we had to re-boost the booster. Yeah, they fixed it.

We'll see.

Brenda (13:11)

Mm-hmm.

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

ginger jacks (13:16)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (13:16)

It's really not a question Ginger. I'm just kind of making a comment and letting you respond to it first of all.

ginger jacks (13:22)

I heard all the way to the very end.

Alex (13:25)

Okay.

Brenda (13:25)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (13:29)

I'll edit it again.

Brenda (13:30)

Yeah.

ginger jacks (13:38)

Okay.

Alex (13:44)

Me?

I was like... I was like, that wasn't me!

ginger jacks (13:53)

I was like wow we have a new noise. Wasn't me either. Wasn't my bracelets. Yeah you can tell that's where I work at my store that we collect them. Yeah.

Alex (14:29)

Mm-hmm.

Please, Jesus, for internet that works.

So Ginger, that reminds me of not only what we can do when people are grieving, but maybe what we shouldn't do when people are grieving. And I'm remembering a time where you and I sat at Starbucks a couple of years after Virginia's death. And it seemed like people were wanting to put you on their timeline of where they thought you needed to be in your grief and that is particularly not helpful.

ginger jacks (15:14)

It is not, you know, and I think I said that earlier, that grief is so different for everybody. And then you can go through a year or two years and then the third year can be your worst, or, you know, four years. There's no formula, unfortunately, for grief. And the process...

is the healing. You have to go through the processes and the stages and no one can tell you when those stages are going to be. That's all a part of your journey and that's very right. So many people, after a year they should be fine. After they've gone through all the first and it's never like that. I'll show you on that. But it is different for each individual.

Brenda (16:10)

Ginger, in season five on suffering, we talked about some common questions we have in the midst of suffering, like why would God allow my suffering? Where is He? What is He up to? What does suffering well look like that I could be used by God? And I just wonder if those were some questions, I'm sure they were, that you struggle with, and how did you overcome those?

ginger jacks (16:31)

Well, I did. You know, I lost my dad six months before Virginia. And I was very close. I was the only girl. And that was devastating.

And then this, of course, the loss of Virginia. And then I got cancer on my face and had to get a large amount of plastic surgery. And so I started thinking, okay, wait, am I doing something wrong here? So I just started diving into the Word and the Word was constantly reminding me of all the people that have gone through the Old Testament all the way to the New Testament that struggled, that went through death, they went through tragedy.

and yet God used it in a mighty way in their life to conform them to make them into who he wants them to be. And I remember Romans 5 that verse you know we rejoice in our suffering and I used to think there's no way there's no way Lord that was kind of my verse that I kept going back to but it goes on and says what he's going to produce within he's going to produce this perseverance he's going to produce this character and then the last verse that really the

the very end of that passage was because he the Holy Spirit pours out God's love and I saw that in a real way every day I would go to him and I on my knees on the floor whatever it was and I would I would focus on him and what he did on the cross for me and his love just I can't I can't explain it before I knew he died for me but it took on an incredibly different meaning and it is

can go on the cross and he can die for us and he can go through all that pain so that I can have a relationship with him that I can spend eternity with him that I can see my daughter again then I can get up and serve him. So it was it was the Word and it was prayer it was just being honest with God you know these are my doubts but you can handle my doubts and so yeah it was it was the Word and in prayer.

Brenda (18:22)

Hmm.

I love what you're really pointing out because it is supernatural.

Alex (18:41)

Ginger, I remember.

ginger jacks (18:45)

It is.

Brenda (18:46)

Holy Spirit pouring His love into your heart and that love that God has for you in Christ, that He confirms through the Holy Spirit, and then that produces the ability to have faith or to trust what He says is true. And that future hope is what you're so much holding on to, that it's not the end of the story, that you will see Virginia again. And so will we. I can't wait. I can't wait. I know she's going to be there to usher us all in, you know.

ginger jacks (18:58)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

No.

I can't either. That's right, that's right. And I remember after my dad was gone, my mom kept saying if Jesus and Jesse, my dad's name was Jesse, I'm sorry, if Virginia and Jesse could just come back, everything would be perfect. And I got to the point and I thought, you know what? No, it wouldn't. You know, we would still have all the things that are going on in our life.

Alex (19:10)

Hmm.

Brenda (19:17)

Ginger would...

ginger jacks (19:38)

Only if Jesus comes back will things be made right. So it took a while. I just really wanted to see Virginia. I'll be honest at first. And I really, there was many days I just wanted to go home because it was so heavy and I was tired of the struggle. But...

through seeing that he was taking me through this struggle. He was my Lord, he was my Savior, not Virginia. She never was intended to be. Then I was able to say, no, I do wanna see Jesus first and foremost. And then of course I wanna see Virginia. But it was a change for me.

Brenda (20:20)

And I just think how it.

Alex (20:20)

Ginger, I remember...

Brenda (20:23)

Well, I was just going to say, I just think it creates such a deeper worship of Jesus because of Him, you will see. Like I think about when Jesus says, get up little girl, you're just sleeping, you know, and how to every believer that goes to be with the Lord, they're just, you know, they've gone to sleep and Jesus wakes them up. And so I just think it's because I worship Jesus in that worship and what He has done is that guarantee of the resurrection from the dead. And so it just makes that worship so much sweeter.

Alex (20:27)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

ginger jacks (20:27)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Alex (20:46)

Mm-mm.

ginger jacks (20:50)

Uh-huh.

Alex (20:51)

Yeah, I've shared your tool with several people that you used to say, you used to go through your ABCs and you would say...

ginger jacks (20:59)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (21:09)

AHHHHHHHHH!

Brenda (21:11)

Used to go through what? Backup. I've shared your tool.

Alex (21:20)

Okay Ginger, I've shared your tool with many people. You used to go through your ABCs and say an attribute of God or an attribute of Jesus.

ginger jacks (21:28)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (21:29)

And I remember you saying it was just a moment by moment clinging to Him. So you would say like, Jesus is amazing. Jesus blesses me. Jesus is caring and compassionate. And I remember you saying sometimes I would get all the way through the alphabet and I'd have to start over again. And it just taught you to fix your mind.

ginger jacks (21:51)

Yes, and it was so incredibly hard at first after it happens, because it's so hard to get it off your mind.

You know, I'm thinking that Virginia's not there. I'm thinking about that accident. I'm thinking about how am I gonna make it through life? I mean, it's such a tiring, I remember Lou Priolo told me that grieving is one of the most tiring physically and mentally things you can go through. And I think that was just trying to take my focus off of what I was really grieving and hurting for. And the only thing that helped me at that time was pulling out a piece of paper

or when I'm driving going through the alphabet and resting my mind by focusing on him. And sometimes what, 10, 12 times during the night, I would be going through the alphabet, but it really, it reminded me of who he is and what he's promised and what he is for me instead of my circumstances and what I was missing and grieving. So yes, it was very helpful, still helpful in issues in my life.

Brenda (23:04)

Such a practical application of set your mind on things above.

ginger jacks (23:07)

That's right. That's right.

Brenda (23:08)

and not all the things of this earth. So I can remember, I feel like we just all sprang into action. Virginia wanted to run, I think it was a half marathon. And so we ended up putting together, you know, an event and getting little wristbands. I remember the wristbands we had and things to honor her. I guess that's just one of the questions I have is like, how do you honor, is it important

ginger jacks (23:18)

Yes.

Brenda (23:38)

to honor your loved ones that have gone on before you and if so what are some ways?

ginger jacks (23:44)

It is. We never stop talking about Virginia with my boys.

We always talked about it freely. We just wanted them to feel like they that you know, she was Absent from us but that she was they would see her again So we didn't want to like not talk about her and so for me I wanted to talk about her still I wanted to share stories about basketball when she played or things that she did In junior high and high school even when she was a child and so it was so important that she wasn't forgotten and

someone who's lost a child, it really, really does encourage them.

Anytime that you want to ask them, tell me about the story when Virginia played this basketball game and did this. For them to be able to tell that story again is very healing. It is. It's very healing. My friends were so sweet about that. I know they heard stories 30, 40 times. I'd say, have you ever heard this story? And they'd say, no, tell us. You know, it got to be a joke. But they allowed me to continuously talk about Virginia because you're talking about your

Brenda (24:48)

Hehehehe

Alex (24:49)

Hehehehe

ginger jacks (24:57)

you know and you still want to talk about the one that's not here.

Alex (24:57)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ginger, can you share with us just some of the long-term effects of grief and losing a child? Do it again.

Brenda (25:03)

Do you ever, in your mind, just imagine where Virginia is, what she's doing, the...

ginger jacks (25:13)

Yes.

Yes I do. Okay. Yeah.

Brenda (25:17)

I'm sorry. I'm so, can we stop right there? Yeah, sorry. I think Alex got cut off and so we should start over. I'm not sure what you were saying, Alex, because I think that you came in. So I'll let you jump in with what you were saying.

Alex (25:29)

Hmm. So what's happening is like, like one of you is freezing for me, but not the other ones, and so I can't always tell if I'm frozen or not. So, okay Lord. Mm-hmm. Mm-mm.

ginger jacks (25:32)

With Alex.

Brenda (25:34)

Yeah, we're gonna let Alex, as soon as she comes back on.

Oh, we're gonna have to get this fixed. This is terrible. Why is it so bad today? Alex, is your, I just want to make sure that your internet has not switched back any weird way.

Alex (25:55)

That's where it's supposed to be. Yeah.

Brenda (25:57)

Okay.

ginger jacks (25:58)

Hmm.

Brenda (25:59)

Alright, Ginger had just talked about honoring and remembering people, and so you were going to follow up on that. I think.

Alex (26:16)

Mmm. Are we back?

Brenda (26:24)

Okay, you want me just to jump in? This is terrible.

Alex (26:29)

Even the... Now Brenda's gone for me.

Brenda (26:37)

Ginger, we're gonna get through this because the devil clearly does not want us to do this interview. We've never, ever, ever.

ginger jacks (26:39)

Oh, I'm... I know! I mean, this... You know it's... Yeah.

Alex (26:44)

We haven't.

Brenda (26:54)

Chit chat.

Okay.

Okay. No worries. Well, it looks like it's just going to be you and me in conversation because I don't know when Alex is coming back. Huh?

Alex (27:16)

that I just checked the e-gro and it's okay too.

ginger jacks (27:17)

I know, well...

I can hear her, it just is going in and out. One thing I was going to mention that has been very helpful in my counseling is once we lost Virginia and then I had my cancer and then...

Brenda (27:26)

crazy. So Jin... go ahead.

Alex (27:26)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (27:32)

Yeah.

ginger jacks (27:43)

Alan, which I don't know if I would say went back in to do the surgery again. And it was just a low time Virginia's dog died. I mean, all these things. And so or her cat, I'm sorry. And we went outside to bury her cat. And I'll never forget. It's like I drew a line in the sand. It had been like seven months and Kevin wanted to have a burial for the cat. We were all sitting there and I said, that's it. I can't do this anymore. I think it was just the heaviness and the sadness.

Brenda (27:52)

I remember that, yeah.

ginger jacks (28:13)

And I said, I don't think I can know it. I go another day like this, Kevin. And he said, well, can you go 15 minutes? I said, of course I can go 15 minutes. You know, it was almost, it bothered me. He said that. He said, oh, Ginger, that's how I make it through my whole day. I ask him to take me 15. Sometimes I ask him to take me 30. And then I keep asking him all through the day. And it's very, been very helpful with some of the ladies that I meet with because they'll, I'll text, they'll say,

Alex (28:35)

Hmm.

ginger jacks (28:43)

minute day so that lets me know that they're really struggling minute by minute so anyway I didn't know if he wanted me to share that

Alex (28:44)

Hmm.

Brenda (28:45)

Mm hmm. Yeah, I tell you what we can we can even just bounce off is one of the questions I have is what was it like for your husband and maybe you could share that story.

Alex (28:52)

Mm-hmm.

ginger jacks (28:57)

Oh, okay, perfect.

Alex (28:58)

Mm-hmm.

ginger jacks (29:03)

Anyway...

Brenda (29:04)

How often do you get to see your grandbabies?

ginger jacks (29:06)

Well, a lot. I mean, they came through Sunday yesterday. It's just an hour and a half away. So it's good. They'll be here for Thanksgiving. Columbus. Kirby works for Pratt Whitney. It's a, he's like a mechanic for airplanes and helicopters. Yeah.

Brenda (29:12)

Okay. Where do they live?

Oh my gosh, Columbus, Georgia? Oh wow, that's awesome. So proud of him.

Alex (29:25)

Hmm.

ginger jacks (29:29)

And he's kind of like Kevin, he's real good with his hands. So he's moving up and doing real well, so.

Brenda (29:33)

Yeah.

That's awesome. And what about Bowen? Where is he now? Is he modeling? What's he up to? Hey, Chattanooga's modeled after Austin. Yeah, but hopefully we can leave the weird in the weirder. We are getting weirder here, I have to say, but not as weird as Austin.

ginger jacks (29:40)

Lord, Lord help Bowen. Bowen's in Austin. Such a sweet town. We went... Really? Well that's in...anyway.

Alex (29:52)

Mm-hmm.

ginger jacks (30:00)

Well, it's just such a lost city, but we went out there a couple of weeks ago, spent a week with him. Kevin and I did and had a good time. Yes, he's still modeling, but he's a personal trainer too.

Brenda (30:05)

Yeah.

ginger jacks (30:18)

and he's also doing DJing, you know, when they get the big thing and then the beat and the drop and he had his first gig this weekend and then he said he met a girl that loves the Lord. This was just a few days ago, so I'm like, really? Ha ha ha.

Brenda (30:24)

Hahahaha

Hey, the difference a godly girl could make, huh? And he knows, he knows he's seen it in you, he's seen it in y'all's marriage, he's seen it in the hardship, like he's seen the Lord and knows the sweetness and the goodness of the Lord.

ginger jacks (30:41)

Yeah.

Yeah, and he's sweet. I mean he has he has a heart for homeless when he's in we were in Austin. He said I hope y'all don't mind I go visit these people he went to the river and they're all like bow in he brings some food. He has always had a tender heart toward the homeless. So I think he ministers a lot to the homeless there.

Brenda (30:55)

Oh... Sorry... Ah! What?!

Oh.

ginger jacks (31:10)

He's just got a very sweet spirit. His photographers are gay, and when there's been some killings, and they said, I'm scared to go out, and Bowen's like, I would be too if I were you. You don't know where you're going. So he's bold, he's become bold, but.

Brenda (31:22)

Yeah, I know.

That's amazing. That's so fun. Well, you'll have to send me like a modeling picture of him. I saw some in the past. I know you probably hate it, but it's so funny to see somebody like you know, like you've seen from a little boy and all of a sudden, they're like so studly and cheeky. I know, it's so shy. And now he's just out there.

ginger jacks (31:29)

So, on out.

UGHHHHHH! I know!

and so shy. Bowen was always so shy.

Alex (31:47)

Yeah.

ginger jacks (31:50)

I will send y'all one of them, but everybody's like, oh, that's so cool. I go, well then let your son be a model. Oh, oh, oh.

Brenda (31:55)

I know, right? That's a tricky world to be in, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's great that y'all get to go see them. And even though Austin is weird, it is a great city and there's a really great church in Austin. If you guys go out there again, it's Austin Stone. And for this series, the guy that we interviewed on suicide is from that church. Correct. Yep.

Alex (31:55)

No.

ginger jacks (32:00)

It is, it is.

Oh.

What?

Okay Austin Stone, S-T-O-N-E. Are y'all echoing? Okay.

Alex (32:19)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (32:25)

Not really. And if you go back out there, some really good friends of ours, he's in golf ministry, it's Kerry Ward. I don't know, did you ever know Kerry Ward from?

ginger jacks (32:35)

Yeah, that name sounds familiar.

Brenda (32:36)

Okay, well she, she was, she became, left Montgomery, became a missionary, um, moved to Austin to work for Austin Stone Church, met her husband, who's in golf ministry, and they just had a baby with like really severe special needs. Their first little baby. Yeah, it's been, yeah, it's been, she's like, she just texted me about Christine Chapel's book and what I knew. I was like, she's awesome. Get her book. We just interviewed her cause she's going through such a PTSD.

Alex (32:52)

Did they Brenda?

ginger jacks (33:05)

I am so sorry. Well, we have not been out. Yeah, Bowen is like, I don't know, you know, and you're kind of scared at this point to just allow him go. So I think the next time he's coming for Christmas, but I'm on plan a time where I can go or Kevin goes to can go to but to make sure we stay over on a Sunday, you know.

Brenda (33:07)

But they're at that church.

I know.

Well, you go and you guys want to go to church, just reach back out to me and I'll connect you with some people at that church. Yeah, I think it's a really good church.

ginger jacks (33:31)

Okay, that would be great. That would be great. Especially since he's met such a godly woman that loves Jesus, I'm sure she'd want to go.

Brenda (33:38)

Well, that's right. It's got a little interest. Got a little interest in Jesus going.

ginger jacks (33:43)

Whatever. I haven't asked many questions.

Brenda (33:46)

Yeah, I know. I know.

ginger jacks (34:01)

Guess.

Brenda (34:03)

Yes.

Alex (34:05)

Hi, I'm back, maybe for a minute, might be gone again. You never know.

ginger jacks (34:08)

Yeah, it sounds clear. It looks clearer.

Alex (34:23)

Okay.

Brenda (34:42)

I hear it too. It's like a shh.

We just need to figure out where we're jumping back in when you get done.

ginger jacks (35:16)

Okay.

Okay.

Brenda (35:34)

I do still.

Alex (35:34)

Malia, is that new because this didn't used to happen? Is that something new that's been turned on? Is that, do you think that's why it's happening?

The continual upload is that.

I don't know. All right.

Brenda (36:03)

Yep.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I leave.

Alex (36:14)

Okay.

ginger jacks (36:16)

Okay.

Brenda (00:20.243)

Well, I think that's really helpful to know because, you know, I think people are oftentimes just afraid to bring up the name or stories about the person who's gone. And so I think we need that permission. And so I thank you, you know, for that. That's a real takeaway that we can grab from today's recording for sure.

Alex (00:43.735)

Ginger, how did grieving affect your husband, Kevin? How did he walk through grief? And then maybe you could also mention how it affected your marriage.

ginger jacks (00:53.794)

Well, it was, you know, as being the head of the house and the protector.

I think it really, really affected him. He was running his own company. So in order to think and to process and do jobs, it was really a challenge to him. He grieved in a way where he kinda had a few small group of people that he would talk to about, Virginia, but mostly he just went out to the country and spent some time alone with the Lord.

In our marriage, it really drew us so much closer together.

I've heard, I don't know, but I've seen it too, that some marriages grow apart because they grieve different, they doubt that they're grieving or they don't understand. But Kevin is real in touch with his feelings, which is unusual for a man. And we would share almost nightly what we had felt that day and we would examine our feelings and then talk about the Lord. And he journaled, Kevin started journaling right after Virginia was gone. I've never been a very good.

journalist, but he would write out what he was feeling, brutally honest, and then he would always try to end up with some scripture that was an encouragement of hope. And he has three or four books of all the journal he went through. And so it was very helpful for us to see that we grieve differently.

ginger jacks (02:27.206)

But it was such a bond too because no one understood what I was feeling except for the Lord that was walking on the face of this earth except for Kevin. He loved Virginia just as much as I did and so we had that bond. And so how has it affected us even to this day if we get into an argument? We can't stay in a conflict very long.

because there's just such a dependency on each other and a bond that was not there quite honestly before the loss of Virginia is strong.

Brenda (03:02.991)

You had shared with us a story early on about Virginia's cat dying and kind of a conversation that you had with Kevin that was helpful to you and that you share with other people. Will you share that with us now?

ginger jacks (03:17.098)

I think when you go through such a tragedy and a loss, you think surely God's not going to bring anything else in your life that's painful. And that's not the case. And it's not that God is, it's just we live in a sinful world. And since you went through this hard time, it doesn't mean that you're not going to go through other conflicts and struggles. So that's what happened to us. I lost my father, then Virginia, and then four or five months later,

cancer came up on my face. So I had to get this really intense surgery. They had to go back in. Her cat died. It was just one thing. The heaviness and the sadness was just, you get tired of it. You just get...

just weary of all the tired and the heaviness. And so when her cat died, Kevin really never liked the cat, but it became real important because it was her cat. He wanted to have a, like a little memorial service, whatever, to honor the cat, which he felt like Virginia would want. So we went outside and he had dug a hole and we had a candle, whatever. And it's like all of a sudden I couldn't,

Brenda (04:12.616)

Hehehehehehe

ginger jacks (04:32.404)

I said, that's it. I don't think I can go another day feeling this heaviness. I said, I don't think I can do it. And he said, well, can you go another 15 minutes? I just looked at him and said, of course I can go 15 minutes, Kevin. He said, that's all God's asking you to do.

He wants to take you through the day. You have to rely on him. You have to pray. You have to ask him to give you his strength to go 15 more minutes. And you know, as I've shared that story with other women and with other people, I thought, don't you think that Lord is...

quick and grateful and loves that we depend on him that much. That dependency on him has got to be an amazing thing for him to experience. Don't you know he loves that when we have to go 15 minutes because he loves us to focus on him.

Brenda (05:31.387)

The reality is we actually do have to depend on him that much. We just don't have an awareness, right? But when you have that... Exactly.

Alex (05:34.734)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

ginger jacks (05:35.594)

That's right. We don't have things in our life. Yeah.

Alex (05:44.639)

Well Ginger, this suffering has really brought you a ministry. And I know that you have ministered to people all over our city and I'm sure beyond. What are some things that you can tell the friends and those who surround those who are grieving the loss of a child?

ginger jacks (06:06.25)

Well, I would try not to fix them. Try not to give them quick responses, Bible verses, because if they're a believer, they know God's promises. They will remind themselves of them. I think their presence is the most important thing. And in my ministry, of course I went through the counseling and got the comfort, the...

degree but the thing that has helped me the most in my counseling is that I understand. I understand where they are and the loss of a child is the is such a deep pain and that unless you've been through this kind of loss you really don't understand and so that a lot of ladies

and I understood, feel like they're losing their mind. They think, I'm not right, you know, and they have all these questions. And it's so, I feel like comforting to them to know that it's normal. It's normal to feel what you're feeling. I would be surprised if they weren't. And so it just confirms so much to be able to understand. And that's, you know, that's your whole conversation counseling. If you've been through...

divorce or you've been through anything in your life and you go and minister to someone that is experienced in that there's a connection there.

because they understand that we'll speak volumes to each of these ladies. And it's just so important that we come alongside people like that and say, I understand, I'm with you through the journey. I'm not going to desert you if you're not fun. I'm not going to, I think that's so many people I've heard that their friends desert them because they're not the same person. They're not fun anymore. Well, they'll never be the same person.

Alex (07:55.68)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (08:07.447)

Mm-hmm.

ginger jacks (08:11.472)

or loss, it changes you. And so that's one thing that's really been helpful in my counseling ministry is that I'm able to understand what they're experiencing and feeling.

Alex (08:26.565)

Hmm.

Ginger, one thing I've watched you do just so beautifully is just meet people exactly where they are and find out what's hard for them. I think that's one thing I've learned about grief through you. I remember you saying just ask them what's hard. And one woman, I wouldn't have thought of this on my own, but I asked one woman what was hard and she said, go into the grocery store. Like I can't go to the grocery store. And you'll just show up and go to the grocery store.

with them so they don't have to face that alone and just things that we probably wouldn't think of if we hadn't walked in those shoes and just being willing to ask the question what's hard for you today or what's hard for you in the season and then being willing to show up right there.

ginger jacks (09:14.674)

and picking up their kids. I remember some people would go pick up my kids at school because it was painful right after Virginia was gone to go pick up Kirby and Bowen from school and see all her friends. I mean, just things that you don't think about.

Alex (09:17.257)

Hmm.

ginger jacks (09:31.618)

that you eventually have to walk through, you eventually have to go start picking up your kids again. But initially, it's just, the pain is so heavy that they can't do it, you know? And to ask if you can do that and to ask what they're dealing with, it speaks volumes to them, did to me.

Brenda (09:59.007)

Ginger, one of our...

guest has also lost a child. It has just talked about as time goes by, not remembering, like remembering but not remembering. It's seeming like it was yesterday. It's seeming like it was so far away. Can you speak a little bit to just kind of the impact over time as you have journeyed further into this grief? What it's been like for you? And maybe also what has allowed you to endure and persevere?

ginger jacks (10:30.486)

Well, you do. You have that fear almost of forgetting their smile or forgetting the way they talked or...

the things that they thought were funny. There's always that fear that you're gonna forget, but you won't. A mother will never forget her child. And write things down. I encourage so many women, write out the things, stories about your child. You're not gonna forget them, but these will remind you of the things that they've done. And a lot of people write books.

you know, to honor their child. You know, I don't know if you would ever want to go that far, if they would want to do that. But just to write out things is very helpful. And to talk about Virginia and to remember Virginia has always been, has always brought me great comfort. But through talking about her all the time, like Kevin says, I don't know how you talk about it all day long.

I don't know how you talk to people all day long about it. I said, I don't know how you don't. It's just personality. And the Lord has brought me to this place. I'll have to say, if you had asked me four years ago, are you gonna, you should go into counseling. I'd say, are you kidding? No way. I can't do that, but the Lord has.

Alex (11:37.847)

Mm-hmm.

ginger jacks (11:59.746)

brought this desire, he's given me this passion, and it's actually he's doing it. It's not me. I go to meet with these ladies and allow him to speak through me. If I, if it was anything of me, I probably would never be able to do it, but he gives me the words, the desire, and he's called me to it. So that's the only way I can do it. You know, it's all of his enabling.

Brenda (12:30.611)

I like that you give so much permission and room to grieve differently and to express differently and to even see how God will use it in ministry differently, you know, different contexts in different ways. How do you encourage parents to deal with their children both in the short run and the long run in dealing with this type of grief?

ginger jacks (12:55.083)

to deal with their other children or... Well...

Brenda (12:57.804)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, just what kind of how do you encourage parents or even the community around to minister to children the siblings?

ginger jacks (13:06.614)

Well, you know, I look back with my sons, they were such pivotal ages, you know, 12 and 15, and I tried to get them to talk, I tried to get, of course, they were boys, tried to get them to go to counseling, but I was in a fog myself. You know, people would say, how are you doing? I don't know how I'm doing, you know, I'm just walking. It was such a hard, hard...

struggle to even make it through the day. Did I lay in bed? No, I didn't because I had two other sons that I had to have responsibility of taking care of. But with my boys, I would have gone, if I could go back, I would provide more people, the youth pastor, their close friends, to over to really try to get them to talk about it more.

You know, we tried to get them to talk, you know, boys, you know, and I don't really know if they knew what they were dealing with. So I would say really do try to minister to the siblings because they are in just as much pain as the parents because they're the ones that are left. You know, I know my son Kirby went.

Brenda (14:10.169)

Hehehehe

ginger jacks (14:30.218)

to a counselor and they said, you know, when you're sad or when you're upset or when you're dealing with it, do you talk to your parents? And he said, why would I do that? They're in so much pain already. Why would I put that on them? Of course, the counselor said they need to know that. That would be encouraging, but he didn't see it that way. And I think a lot of siblings think, you know, they're just, they're suffering so much already. I don't want to bring anything else on them, but I would highly encourage that.

Brenda (15:01.999)

Yeah, I like that idea of just giving.

the other children permission to talk about it and to talk to parents about it and to provide opportunities because you can't make them. And to your point, depending on their personalities and their ages, they may not be ready. But I will say that one of the gifts that you've given to your boys is the way that you and Kevin have modeled what real authentic, faith-filled grief looks like. And I can say that, you know, Alex and I bear witness to God's faithfulness to your family

and your response to trust Him and walk this out, a journey that is really a tribulation that most of us, you know, really, like you said, can't understand if we have not walked through it. And that's, you know, one of the things about this help series that we're saying is that there are times that situations are so overwhelming to us or if we're ministering to a friend that we really need to ask for help. We need to align ourselves with other people or we need to point the person

that we're ministering to or if it's on our own lives to people who can really identify and empathize and know what it's like because people who suffer deeply really do become our teachers. They're the best teachers. You know the Word of God teaches us and then God gives us his people to show us what it looks like and so your you know your example I know for Alex and I both has been profound and even you know I don't live in the same town anymore

watching you grow, watching you start this ministry, getting updates from Alex. It's just been really, really an encouragement ginger. And I know it doesn't take away the loss of the heartache, but I wonder if it gives some more purpose or meaning to it for you.

ginger jacks (16:51.582)

You know, it does. It really, when I sit down with someone who's, and they say, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm experiencing. Am I going crazy? I get that a lot. I go, no, you're just grieving. The relief that comes over them. And then also, I mean,

crying with them. You know, if they start telling a story or start sharing what they're experiencing, I mean, there's a bond there and I feel it. I feel their pain because I've been there just sometimes just to cry with them. And you know, the tears, I think we think, I say this to all my clients, I'll go, I had a bad week. I cried a bunch. That's not a bad week. You know, the tears can be so healing.

A bad week is I didn't cry at all and I went through all five days and I did great. Well, let's look back at what's going on. We always are trying to take different things in our life to numb that pain because we are living in a society where we're supposed to be joyful and happy all the time. Of course, we do want to have joy in the Lord, but that pain and that grief is a part of the process. It's very important that they are walking.

through that grief and not getting shipwrecked by whatever they might be turning to instead of dealing with the pain, something to numb that pain.

Brenda (18:21.579)

And I think that idea of getting over things quickly, always being happy, can be particularly prevalent in our Christian communities, right, until you have really felt that kind of pain, until you have felt the depth of that kind of pain. I'm just wondering how your pain has helped you to identify with the sufferings of Christ and made you realize how Christ has identified with your suffering.

ginger jacks (18:47.082)

Oh, wow, it's unreal. Growing up in a Christian home, I always knew the gospel. I knew that God loved me, that he sent his son. But especially after Virginia was gone, and she even wrote it in her testimony. Imagine God giving up his only son.

You know, two weeks before her accident, she had written that in her testimony. She said, I can't imagine what a parent would be experiencing, which is unreal that she wrote that. But the point is, is when I started realizing that God, my Father, went through this pain willingly.

There was no one on the face of this earth that would willingly go through the pain that you experience. But he said, you know what, I'm going to go through it because I love you so much, Ginger. It was, the gospel was unreal to me. It was life changing. And I'm not saying it wasn't before, but I didn't understand the suffering that Jesus of course went through, but that the Father went through to have to watch his son suffer.

You know, it took on a whole new meaning. And that suffering is not, you know, some people say, well, if God really, really loved you, He wouldn't allow you to suffer. God doesn't ever allow suffering. And I said, what are you going to say about His Son? His only Son, He allowed to go through that suffering. And I think about the disciples at the foot of the cross. Don't you know they thought, this is awful? Well, what?

Alex (20:22.787)

Mm-hmm.

ginger jacks (20:23.266)

God has made a mistake. He is so bad. Why would he allow this to happen? They had no understanding right after it happened until the resurrection when Jesus came back. So am I gonna all ever understand on this earth? No.

Am I going to ever be like, but I do see what God has done through that suffering. And I can be hopeful that He's going to use my suffering to help others, to bring them to the gospel. And that is the hope we have.

Alex (20:59.159)

Ginger, I've heard of Biblical counseling is described sometimes as borrowing somebody else's faith or borrowing somebody else's hope. So I wonder if you could just close us and just cast a vision for the hope that a grieving parent can have as they see a lot of dark days ahead of them, but what's their real hope?

ginger jacks (21:22.491)

Oh, it's, this is not our home.

One of my clients that I'm meeting with right now, she's really struggling, lost her only son. And we're going through a book about heaven by Randy Alcorn. And every week we get together and talk about the new heavens and the new earth, and the intermediate heaven where they are now. And I even ordered some Jasper stones, from Amazon of course. And so I give that to some of my clients. This is what heaven, this is Jasper's gonna be in heaven.

That is our only hope. This is not it. We're not living for this world. We're living for our home, our future home, when he will return again and make all things right. And then once that time happens, I will never be.

separated from Virginia again. It will be forever and ever. So our hope in Christ, I couldn't imagine going through it without that. And I do sit down with my clients and I share at first where I stand. And that is my hope, is hope in the unseen, the things we can't see, but we know that we know that it's true. And you know, some are not ready for that right then, and that's fine.

but that has to be our road to healing. It has to be in the hope that we have in Christ.

Alex (22:51.215)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (22:53.223)

Ginger, this has been great. Thank you so much for joining us. And I think there's such great comfort in the words that you've spoken over us. Some real practical takeaways for those who are grieving and those of us who want to walk along, others who are grieving as well. We're gonna put in our show notes, do you do Zoom counseling as well? Okay, so we'll link your ministry in our show notes.

ginger jacks (22:56.302)

Thank you for having me.

ginger jacks (23:16.232)

I do, I do.

Brenda (23:23.877)

You can give us a few quick resources and we can link those in the show notes as well. You mentioned The Heaven by Reedy Alcorn. If there's anything else, we'll get that from you and put that in the show notes as well. But we love you. We know you. We love you. We love Virginia. We hold the memories of her so dear. We look forward to that reunion. And honestly, like, I'd like to be there to see you guys be reunited. That would be pretty amazing, you know, and really sweet and special.

ginger jacks (23:31.753)

Okay.

Alex (23:36.437)

Mm-hmm

ginger jacks (23:39.192)

No. Thank you.

ginger jacks (23:44.555)

Oh.

ginger jacks (23:48.385)

I don't know.

Alex (23:49.016)

Mm-hmm.

ginger jacks (23:52.218)

It's gonna be sweet.

Brenda (23:53.097)

but we know that we'll be on the other side together and I'm so thankful for that and so we do we do love Jesus for who he is and what he has secured for us and we're thankful for that. So thank you for joining us.

Alex (23:54.496)

Mm.

ginger jacks (23:55.915)

That's right.

ginger jacks (24:03.125)

Amen.