Season 6 Episode 5: Peggy Bruning

Brenda (00:02.874)

Hey, Alex, good to see you. Yeah.

Alex (00:04.502)

Hello!

Brenda (00:06.478)

Well, we have another really incredible guest with us today as we continue our help series on topics that we are saying are really heavy on the hearts of a lot of people and especially difficult topics. And today we're gonna be tackling, at least to the best of our ability in the time we have, the issue of substance abuse. And we know that substance abuse is a growing and increasingly deadly problem, especially among young adults, and that's leaving a lot of parents in the wake of having to.

deal with so much hardship concerning their children and the destruction that comes with substance abuse and addiction. Peggy Bruning is not only an expert in her field, but a close friend and a personal counselor to me as I have struggled to know how to truly love someone dear to me and their substance abuse struggle. And what makes Peggy an expert in the field of substance abuse is the 15 years she lived as an addict.

with Jesus that changed the direction of her life and her ministry over the last 20 years, overseeing two residential discipleship programs for women caught in the snare of substance abuse. And currently, Peggy is the director of the Women's Renewed Discipleship Ministry at Calvary Chapel in Chattanooga. Peggy is also one of the best examples in my life of how God can take someone so incredibly broken, redeem their lives, and then make them useful in his kingdom to rescue us.

And Peggy, you're kind of giggling as I'm saying expert because I know you always like to joke that you don't have any letters behind your name or in front of your name other than Mrs. And you are married to Mike Bruning. I need to say that as well. He's a tremendous supporter.

Peggy Bruning (01:39.502)

I am.

Peggy Bruning (01:48.662)

Yes.

Brenda (01:51.466)

and shares a lot of your story as well. Y'all are just an amazing couple together. But I really am reminded in Acts 4, where the people look on at some of Jesus' disciples and they say, hey, these guys speak with such courage and boldness and truth, but they're just like ordinary unschooled people.

Alex (02:07.522)

Hmm.

Brenda (02:07.898)

But what we do know is that they've been with Jesus. And your life and your ministry are proof that you've been with Jesus. And I truly can say, I don't think I know anyone who has as many spiritual daughters as you do. It's one of the most exciting things about being able to watch your ministry is to meet so many of the women you encounter of all ages and just how God has used your life, your story, and you taking others by the hand and leading them to Jesus to change their life. And I like to say, you know,

is often your best platform to preach the good news. And I think this is certainly true of your story. So today we wanna spend our time talking to those who struggle with substance abuse, but also to family members, especially the parents who are trying to navigate the chaotic world of loving someone who's caught in substance abuse and all that goes with it. So we just wanna thank you so much for taking time to come on with us today.

Peggy Bruning (03:00.878)

Sure, sure. Happy to be here.

Brenda (03:03.027)

Yeah, looking forward to this conversation. Well, we wanted to start with you as we have our other guests, and that is just to allow you to take some time to tell us your story, the personal testimony of what led you to this work of addiction and with the families of addicts.

Peggy Bruning (03:19.606)

Well, Brenda, I can absolutely do that. Like you mentioned, in order to qualify for what I get to do now, I did take a long course in addiction with some classes in chaos and lying and family destruction and all of those things. So, you know, sadly, a lot of my family and friends lived it with me, like you know. And so, you know, I grew up in a pretty,

Brenda (03:33.178)

I'm sorry.

Peggy Bruning (03:47.202)

amazing family. We went to church every week. I knew about God. But like a lot of us, something happened as I was growing up that was tragic and painful. And when I was 17, my mom passed away of cancer. And as a 17 year old, that's just more pain than you know what to do with.

The God that I knew then was a God that would smile on you when you were good and when you were bad, you had to go in a box and tell someone about it. But he was supposed to bless good people and bad people. You know, they were the ones that didn't get the blessing. So I didn't understand because my mom was a good person and she loved God. You know, so why did she get cancer? And so at the darkest kind of moment in my life where there's the most pain.

I don't have a God that I can run to. Now, I didn't recognize it then, but the world and the enemy of God offered me other things. And I was in high school and awkward and weird. And so, and now I have this hurt and this pain, but I also have all these responsibilities because I'm the oldest and I have a lieutenant colonel for a dad. And so I'm just trying to figure out how to exist. And she was my best friend.

So it felt like my future too was just like, blah. And so that's when I had already been experimenting with a little bit of alcohol and a little bit of drugs on the weekend just to be cool. But then it started to be what the enemy now I recognize offered me to take away the pain. And for a minute that works, you know, it did. It helped me with pain. It helped me get keep moving. It helped me not.

sink into a complete pit of despair, but you didn't realize that there was a price tag. And what was initially helping me then end up having me. And I was in complete bondage to it. And, you know, I look back at those years and like the destruction and the lies and the numbness that you feel, like your heart gets numb and you find yourself doing things and lying

Peggy Bruning (06:10.502)

and stealing and hurting and like, you know, it's not how I was raised, it's not who I was, but I just was numb, my heart was hardened. And, you know, just found myself in places, you know, that I never wanted to be. Places nobody would want their young teenage daughters. I think I started my recovery

I'm going to date myself in 1987. I went to my first drug and alcohol rehab. And it was really hard because when you stop using all the things that you've been running from sort of catch up to you and all the things that you've done start to become your reality and all the people that you've hurt start to you feel those things and you've been numb so you didn't really feel them.

They would tell me in these places that I had a disease and that it was incurable and that the best I could hope for was some daily reprieve. So that was that there wasn't much hope or encouragement in that. And then I was told to take a look at myself, own my things and take a look at some of the things I had done in my addiction. Well,

In my addiction, I had done things that were so horrific. You know, I had an abortion in my addiction. I stole from people, I hurt people. I had horrible things that I did in my addiction that I would look at those things and write them down on and feel so much shame and guilt and hate what I had done and had no skills to cope. So I would just not wanna feel those things and I would go back out

do it again so I didn't have to feel it. It's the bizarre thinking of I hate that I hurt you so I'm just gonna go ahead and remove my pain which is gonna hurt you some more. But in the moment it made sense. And so that was a cycle of what I was doing and I was finding no hope, no hope, no hope. And then one day I had a friend, she was just as messed up as me and she showed up.

Peggy Bruning (08:36.274)

and we had used together and she was different. Like her face was different, her countenance was different and she was different. And I asked her what happened and she came to tell me actually, and she said Jesus did it. That the Lord had transformed her life and I was not very nice to her. She told me she was born again and I just made fun of her, but I couldn't deny the transformation that I had seen in her.

And it took me sadly a number of years of probably, I've been in five drug and alcohol treatment centers. It cost my family a lot of money. I went to some jail cells. I spent a little time there. Had some counseling, took some medication. I did all of those things in an effort to help my addiction. And at the end there was consistently no hope. I might have.

a few days of behavior modification and sobriety, but no real change. And I would always have Jackie in my mind and in my heart. And I would just remember that she was bold enough to come tell me about Jesus. And really, he was kind of the last place I wanted to look and expected to find any help. But I have a very vivid memory of a place of hopelessness.

And I was on my knees on the floor, and I really just didn't want to live anymore. And I didn't want to hurt anyone anymore. I didn't want to hurt anymore. And I just could no longer believe that there was something or someone out there that was going to change me. And I remember having this conversation with the Lord. Got on my knees and I said,

I'm gonna give you my life, like I'm giving him a prize, right? I weighed 98 pounds with sores all over my body and track marks everywhere. And here I'm gonna give you this. And if you mess it up, I'm going to take it back. And I figured my, to be honest, my prayer was if you mess it up, I'm just going to go out and die with a needle in both arms. And that really as tragic and as horrific as that is.

Peggy Bruning (11:02.466)

He was faithful to even take that little bit of surrender. My friend Jackie had told me that I didn't have a disease, it was a sin. And so I just remembering crying out and asking God to forgive me of my sin. And...

You know, addicts are pretty good because they're wired with a passion and if there is a desire, they go for it. So I promised God at that moment that I would take that level of passion that I pursued drugs and men and other things, and I would put that towards Him. And so that's what I did. I didn't really know what to do, but I knew that Jackie had gone to this church, to Calvary Chapel, and it was right down the road.

So I went, I walked in my mini skirt and my stilettos with my three inch heels and I just, I didn't know what to do but I just remember the worship. I remember the word starting to penetrate my heart and I just wept, you know, for the first couple of times I was there. I would sit way in the back and then they talked about a women's Bible study and I thought maybe I should go to that.

And the very first Bible study I went to was a woman who was holding up a one-year Bible. And she was telling us, girls, you got to read your Bibles. And which is great, but I had tried to read my Bible many times and it just felt empty in words on the page. But not only did she tell you that you had to read it every day, she taught us how to read it, how to dig in and look for the character and the heart of God. And I just.

Remember taking lots of notes and like I'm gonna go home and if this is what you do to be a believer Christian I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna do it if it can help me with my addiction I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna do it exactly like you tell me and so I did but I walked away with more than just information I walked away with this idea that she

Peggy Bruning (13:16.846)

talked about God like she had sat down and had breakfast with him that morning. Like there was an intimacy there that one, I didn't know you could have. And two, I didn't want with the God that I knew. Right. And so I just had to be like there's something more there.

And so I went home with my little sheet and I got up early in the next morning and I opened up my one year Bible and I started to look for the heart of God and the person of Jesus. And as I started to look in God's word, just like a reality TV show, I would step into some of these stories and I could relate. In Mark five, there's a demoniac, there's a crazy man in the tombs.

And I'm thinking that somebody's little boy, how did he end up in a graveyard? And I, it was like, God said, you know, how I got there the same way you got there in addiction, where you're cutting yourself and you're hurting yourself. And you are living among the dead. Your soul's dead. Your friends are dead. And anytime someone tries to help you, you just kind of break those chains and you go back. And I was like, I lived that life. You know, I was somebody's little girl and somehow I ended up.

being a dead man walking and hurting myself and cutting myself and putting needles in my arms and nobody could fix it. And Jesus went across a lake for that one crazy man that nobody wanted anything to do with. And after an encounter with him, he was clothed in his right mind. And if I could explain to you, my mind was crazy, my emotions were crazy, like I was crazy.

and the hope that I could have my mind restored was pretty crazy. And then when he met that woman at the well, and he said, I got what you need. And she's like, I don't see how you can have what I need, Jesus. And then he revealed to her that she was looking to be loved in the wrong places, which was another part of my story, whether it was drugs or.

Peggy Bruning (15:33.322)

or trying to find love, like, and he didn't call her a name. He wasn't disgusted by her, but he told her that he would be what she needed. And I was still curious. I was still kind of really just trying to be like, how can someone I can't see, feel or touch be what I need? Right? But then there was this other story and this one just really resonates.

so powerfully with me. There was a man at a pool of Bethesda and it's in God's Word and I think it's in John 5. And Jesus went to that man and he was crippled. Okay. He was crippled and God knew him. And I don't know, I would think, why would you go to that man? Why would you come to me? I was 36, he was 38. I could, but it was interesting because that man was laying by this

and he was waiting for an angel to stir the water so that he could get in and the first one in got healed. And for me, it just felt like those are the myths that if you do these steps or if you take these pills, these are the answer that the world has to offer, that if you just do this concoction or get this counseling, that it will fix your addiction. It'll fix your crippled legs.

And they felt like myths because I had tried so many and they didn't produce anything other than a little bit of behavior modification. But then this is where God really taught me some things because Jesus asked him a question. And he says to him, do you want to be made whole?

He didn't say, do you want me to fix your crippled legs? He didn't say, do you want me to heal you of your addiction? And I didn't understand it then, but I understand it now that drugs and alcohol were not my problem. They were a symptom of my problem, right? They had become a problem, but there was a deeper need in my heart and that God was not just interested in fixing my addiction, right? But he wanted to help my heart.

Peggy Bruning (17:47.106)

be whole and that only happened when the right God got on the throne of my life when I started to look to the right person to help me. And if it wasn't that I would have just switched addictions, I would have changed. In fact, I did for a while I struggled with image and eating disorders and all that stuff, just to try to control something or to change something. And so

I, that's when Christ said, do you want to be made whole? And then if you do, he says, come follow me, come follow me and go and send no more. And I was like excited that I had, you know, I had a direction, but I didn't know what the heck does that mean, like to follow Jesus, right? And so I was reading my Bible, I was beginning to know who Christ was.

and to see who he was, I was beginning to understand. I still was kind of numb in my mind and my heart. And I would get really confused because I would be afraid of the shiny Christian women and I would kind of compare my insides with their outsides. And they would always seem to love Jesus so much and they would be like, don't you just love Jesus? And I would be like, well, I want to.

I wanna love him because now I know he's forgiven me and he died on a cross for me, but I don't have any feelings of love towards him. And if I did, I don't know that I could trust him anyway because I had a lot of love that wasn't love. So his words said, if you love me, obey. And so that's like, I thought, okay, I could do what you asked me and that would show you that I love you. And that's what Jesus was really doing.

you see that what he did was he gathered these 12 men together and he said, come follow me. And he taught them as, you know, as he was doing life. And so I started to try to obey God. Um, but I had a hard time because there was, I only knew this much Bible. And so, um, at one point I was really stuck with what would be the right answer to do. And, and God kind of, I was in a,

Peggy Bruning (20:10.126)

I didn't want to do the wrong God thing, but I didn't know the right God thing to do, and I didn't have any friends because I couldn't hang out with the drug addicts, and I couldn't hang out with the Christian ladies. So God told me to go ask that Bible teacher. And she gave me her phone number, and I didn't understand it at the time because I didn't know this word, but she ended up discipling me, which means she taught me.

how to follow Jesus. And she, I would call her and ask her things and she would point me to God's word and she would show me what his word said. And then I would try to put it into practice and my life started to change. And the grip that the addiction had on me started to be released. And the picture I had of myself, who I saw myself as I started to see.

and believe what God said about me instead of what my head said or what the world told me. And there was transformation started to happen in my life. And it was for me, it was like, I found the answer. Because I know, you know, you started this, this podcast by talking about how big a problem addiction is. And

It's greater than we even know. I was pulling some numbers and 46.3 million people right now over the age of 12, 46.3 have met the substance and mental health abuse commission's criteria for having a substance abuse disorder. 46.3. There were a.

109,940 overdoses in the last 12 month period starting in January of this year. So it's a horrible, horrible thing and I found the answer. It was Jesus and I had looked all the other places and I mean when I tell you I went I mean I went to long-term, short-term,

Brenda (22:06.842)

Mm-hmm.

Peggy Bruning (22:24.842)

you know, all kinds of rehabs. And I just wanted to tell others because I know how many broken women were out there. I know that there was 12-step rooms filled with women going in and out and in and out and switching addictions. And I just wanted to say, like Jackie told me, I found the answer, it's Jesus, and I want you to know him, so.

Brenda (22:51.59)

Yeah. Thank you, Peggy. That's a I've heard your story several times and every time I feel like you highlight kind of some different aspects of it. But a few things I picked up on I just want to circle back around to one is that it was it sounds like it was a process going from substance abuse use abuse to addiction. And so maybe the first question I have is as like what what?

What kind of is that progression that somebody, how do you know that somebody has moved through that progression and is now in addiction? That's one question I have. And then the other question may be, well, answer that first, and then I'll go to my second question.

Peggy Bruning (23:29.994)

Well, I think it's really hard to put a definition on some of it, but my casual weekend uses where I would do it here and there, where it became, you know, and I don't even know if I could tell you, because some people use successfully in work, you know, or drink and, you know, and function. For me, there was an initial functioning until I got to college.

Brenda (23:48.867)

Yeah, yeah.

Peggy Bruning (23:57.606)

and it got really bad and then I sort of just dropped out of life and every day became finding drugs, getting drugs, using drugs. I couldn't even tell you what day it was and so it was all that I did. So there are different levels of addiction but and there's different drugs that will, you know, some of them have a physical addictive capacity to them, the heroin, the opiates, the alcohol.

Some of those have such a physical addiction that if you just try to stop, your body's gonna go through different types of withdrawals and usually needs a medical detox. Some of the other ones like meth and cocaine and marijuana, they don't have as big of a physical as they do a mental connection. And so you may not need something like a medical detox for some of those, because your body isn't.

but your brain has to have them and your mind has to have it. So mine was a progression. Some people start slow and go for a while, but it is a progression and it does keep getting worse. And so, you know, to the point where, like I said, I lived in a 12 foot trailer with no electricity in the middle of nowhere. And there's that whole underground world doing that right now where they don't have jobs and their whole life is just finding drugs. But then you also,

have it in law firms and in hospitals where people are functioning but they're using every day.

Brenda (25:29.79)

Mm. Yeah, thank you. I think that's a good.

a good understanding to have. One of the things that I'm hearing you say is that there's a suffering component to your story and ascending component. And something we talk a lot about on this podcast is that where, you know, sufferers and sinners. And so maybe you could, you know, especially as a loved one, I think looking on, it can be really difficult to know, how do I step in and help? Is this person capable of changing? Are they not capable? How much of this is a part of their suffering story?

Peggy Bruning (25:41.002)

Yeah.

Brenda (26:03.444)

of this is you always say that people are often motivated by pain or pleasure. And so what would you say to that? Just understanding kind of that nature of addiction, the body-soul connection, and as we're looking on and trying to help.

Peggy Bruning (26:16.594)

Yeah, so it's really hard to know how to help. And as a parent, and my father for years tried to help, and what does help look like? And a lot of times, what I always, and you know, I've said this to you a lot, like we try to apply logic to an addict and to their thinking. And what we would think would be horrible, like you're gonna destroy your future, you're gonna have a record.

Some of those things are not, they're not on the addict's radar as bad. Like they're just thinking about immediate. There's not long-term. And to be honest, it's like pain motivates. I didn't do anything to change until I was in pain. If I had a roof over my head, if I had someone fixing my mistakes or bailing me out of jail,

I didn't get miserable and that's really hard to say to someone. Like you have to let them walk through their consequences and it's not, there's like not a one and done and you really need to kind of know the situation. My dad did help me multiple times but at some point he said I love you. This is the last amount of money I can spend sending you to a rehab.

You know, I'll always love you, but you're not allowed here at the home because I was influencing my siblings. I was drawing resources that were the families and I was causing pain and trauma. And so, you know, he had to step back. It's really hard because, yes, there's a sin story and I needed to repent of my sin.

But there was suffering too. There was suffering initially that led me into it. Then there was suffering that became as a result of some of my choices. And what I've discovered about the Lord is like, he cares about both. You have to be careful though. Sometimes addicts will use their suffering story because we are shameless. We'll use our suffering story to be a victim, to play on heartstrings.

Peggy Bruning (28:38.126)

If that will motivate if that will get someone to help us Sometimes we want to stay in our suffering which allows us to be the victim and gives us permission to keep using and So that there's an importance to understand you it always starts with for me in my mind It starts with the sin story like I got a repent because I have chosen to look to drugs I never planned on being a drug addict when I got up

but I gotta turn from that and repent of what I've done. And then I've gotta allow you, I gotta understand that you care about my hurt, God, and that I need to let you into it and look at all of that through the blood and the love of Christ, right? And so it is again, one of those things where it's hard to be a parent or someone of a loved one. I always talk about there's a progression too, like,

You know, sometimes if your kid's smoking marijuana, you don't start with a hammer. Like, let's send you to a year-long program because that's a little dramatic for marijuana. And to be honest, and I'm just gonna, over the years I've discovered that when you're young, it's really hard for an 18, 19, 20-year-old to like,

get clean and sober if they really have an addiction, because they are sure that there is some way other than surrendering to Jesus and giving their life to the Lord, that they can sort of work this out. And most of the women that I work with, there are a few, gosh, thank you Jesus for some of the young ones, but a lot of them are like, we've tried everything.

We've run the gamut. We've found no hope, and we're willing to look to you, Jesus. So I don't know if that kind of answers your question. I've seen a lot of rehabs that will just tell you, you're a sinner and you need to repent, which is true. But go and sin no more. Let me show you how. Let me deal with your suffering and your hurt so that it doesn't.

Brenda (30:36.761)

Hmm.

Brenda (30:40.631)

Yeah, yeah.

Peggy Bruning (30:59.074)

keep you going back to dealing with that. You know, I work with girls now that, I mean, their parents were addicts, they were molested since they were 12. You know, they've had all of these horrific things happening and of course drugs will help. You know, girls coming out of sex traffic and some of those other things, like the stories are horrific and drugs feel like an answer.

Brenda (31:25.486)

Mm.

Peggy Bruning (31:27.978)

because it helps you numb what's been done. And then you make choices and then it helps you numb that. And so it's just, it runs the gamut. Not everyone, I've got some sweet women who had a doctor drug and they end up addicted to pain medication. It just, it's insidious. But for me, the answer is the same always. It's the Lord because I watch him teach

people how to walk with him and let him heal their hurt, which is part of what continues the cycle of addiction is having to look at your sin and having to look at and feel your own hurt. So does that help?

Brenda (32:14.816)

Mm-hmm. I think that's a great explanation. Alex, did you have a question?

Alex (32:19.138)

Well, I think since we started to touch on what is the parents experience of walking with a family member, a child who's struggling with substance abuse, Peggy, what are some of the practical encouragements you give to parents when they recognize that their child is struggling in this way?

Peggy Bruning (32:39.598)

Well, first of all, you're not supposed to know how to do this. Like I think sometimes parents, I talk to them and they feel like they should have the answer. They also a lot of times will take on guilt of having not seen it, having not known it, what could they have done different. A lot of parents deal with guilt. It depends on the level of addiction, fear.

is another driving force for parents. I'm afraid that I'm gonna get a call that they're dead or that they have overdosed, which is a very real reality these days. And so initially having the conversations, being able to talk about that struggle, asking if it's, you know, is there an abuse problem, just bringing it out into the open and letting it be a conversation they can have.

That's important. If they're living under your house, there's are under your roof. There's a little bit more of There's a little bit more leverage that you have and wanting them to get some help You know, I talked to parents so finding out You know what drug their child is on and they won't always tell you Like they don't want you to know and a lot of times they'll tell someone else

And then they will usually give you the tip of the iceberg. But just being able, you should be able, a lot of times you can tell by behaviors, different behaviors you start to, and having a parent come and having a conversation or having them talk to someone, and then determining if they want help. Is this something you want help with?

If they're living in your house and they're like no we want to smoke dope and take fentanyl and then you tell them Well, I love you, but you can't do that and live in my home You know and that's really hard To be the catalyst that creates them to be uncomfortable and That's why a parent I would just a parent has to turn to God too because what you're essentially doing is

Peggy Bruning (35:03.378)

You are having to put your hope in the Lord and ask Him to help you make decisions related to your young one. I mean they're not always young. Sometimes they're sisters or loved ones and they're not in your house. So it's that initial conversation of what's the reality of what's going on? How can I walk alongside of you? What can we do to help?

Do you want help? And then determining if they want help and what help looks like. And I think Brenda, you can probably speak to this. The hardest part is how do I love my addict and not enable them? How do I not give them money to fund their addiction? How do I?

not provide a safe place for them to be able to get high? How do they not use my resources to pay for their cell phone, their vehicles, their cars? Like, how do I do that and not enable you to keep using but still say, I love you and I'm here if you want to get some help? And that's a lot of times what I will tell parents. I love you. I'm here.

if you want to make some life changes, but here's some things that you can and can't do in my home or that I'm, you know, I'm not going to give you money because there's always a need, you know, for finances. And, you know, it's always dramatic. Like my, you know, a lot of times it's like, I don't have any food. Okay, well then let me bring you some food, but I'm not going to give you some money. My electricity is going to be shut off.

All right, well, let me pay your electric bill this once, but then let's figure out why you have no money. Where's it going? Like, so it's just not ever throwing money at an addict, opening conversations, seeing if they want help, or if they're just trying to get you to fix their situation, which a lot of time is like, fix my situation, but there's a deeper problem. So does that answer it a little bit, Alex?

Alex (37:20.014)

Yeah. I think the other thing I see a lot of is parents trying to get on the same page with what you were talking about. How do I not enable them? And how do parents, how do you counsel parents about getting on the same page? Because often one parent is deeper into the enabling or flip side is one parent is ready to do tough love consequences before the other one is.

Brenda (37:22.095)

I was just.

Peggy Bruning (37:33.292)

Yeah.

Peggy Bruning (37:49.662)

Yeah, it's really trying to help them understand that. Because most of the time, it's the mom with the emotions and the heart, not always, but a lot of times, it's the emotional component. It's the draw. It's the fear. And so it's really trying to help them understand what love looks like. And it is not loving to continue to keep them from experiencing consequences, because that just prolongs it.

and it's like putting a pillow under their high knees. So just trying to encourage them that the sooner they get on the same page and start to choose to do what doesn't feel loving, but actually is the most loving thing they can do is allow them to experience the weight of some of their consequences. Being left in jail the second or third time and saying, I love you.

We're not going to bail you out. We're not buying an attorney this time. We've already done all those things. If you want to get some help, long-term help, then we can help you with that. But other than that, you get to walk this out. That is loving because it starts to help them understand that my choices have consequence. And that's not something the addict always understands.

for some reason, I don't know, it took me years to understand, oh, this is the consequence. Somehow I just thought that I could figure out how to make it work, you know. So, and you see the gamut, Alex. I've seen the gamut of different, you know, I've seen enablers to the nth. I've seen people otherwise where they just do tough love so fast and hard that there's no compassion.

You know, you're trying to step back looking forward like Brenda always says, you're not setting boundaries between people, but between wisdom and foolishness, right? When they're going to be in chaos and what you don't want to do is enter their chaos. You know, you got to stand back. And I would always suggest not responding, considering praying.

Peggy Bruning (40:08.194)

How's this gonna help them? Is it gonna be a bandaid on a bullet hole? Am I just prolonging something? Or is this moving towards a real solution of change or just fixing an immediate need, if that makes sense.

Brenda (40:25.058)

Yeah, I think a few things you've said I'd love to pick up on one is just the difference between that responding versus reacting.

that one of the conversations that we've had Peggy and I've had with Alex is just, you know, so often if somebody calls you and they are in a panic, it can really trigger your fight flight and you will begin just to make your own panic decisions based on nothing logical and nothing with no wisdom, no judgment. And so I think really taking that step back to be able to breathe, to be able to pray. Hopefully if you're a parent in this situation, you have got some other people in your life that know you, that know your child, that know the Lord, that can really watch.

Peggy Bruning (40:40.726)

Yeah.

Peggy Bruning (40:45.528)

Yes.

Brenda (41:01.772)

with you and help you think through what the best scenario is going to look like. And we know that this is a day by day for parents who are in this. It is literally seeking the Lord for your child and their situation because what might be enabling today may actually be loving tomorrow and vice versa. All that nuancing that happens of something that seems like a wisdom call today a month from now may just be a reaction to my fear or giving into somebody's

Peggy Bruning (41:18.346)

Yes. Yeah.

Peggy Bruning (41:29.588)

Right.

Brenda (41:31.592)

I think what you said about, you know, we talk about just parents having desperate faith and that things with our children really do drive us to our knees and drive us in desperation to Jesus ourselves to know how to walk in a way that we're really loving well and not contributing to the problem.

Peggy Bruning (41:48.522)

Right. And it's hard to, I mean, the addict goes through it, you as a parent go through it, but the family goes through it. And you see such resentment sometimes because, you know, I hijacked my family's life and it was always about me and my trauma, whether I was alive or whether I was in jail or what was going on the whole time that my sisters and brother, they were doing good things and achieving good things.

Brenda (42:10.578)

Hmm.

Peggy Bruning (42:17.598)

And the focus was always on my drama. And so a lot of times, as a parent, you're so focused on that you forget that there are others that really need you, the ones that are doing the right thing. And so I watch a lot of times, too, it's interesting with families because we do run a resident, there's a residential discipleship.

Brenda (42:34.21)

Mm-hmm.

Peggy Bruning (42:44.562)

A lot of times the fear drives, but the minute that I have some girl or a woman safe and she's in the ministry and she's starting to do well, I often will see the secondary emotion of anger come up in the family. Like you haven't allowed yourself to be angry at some of the things that have happened because you've been so afraid of what could happen. And that's an interesting, it's kind of like there's.

Peggy Bruning (43:13.634)

the different stages, you know, and then I watch some that want to just run right to like, okay, good, you made a little change and let us just give you the world and you know, that's not always healthy either because you do want, you know, forgiveness is free, but trust is earned and their flesh isn't always dead yet and just, you know, making a change is great and you want to encourage it.

You want to allow them that opportunity to, you know, like the Lord said, go and sin no more to Bring forth fruit that shows that you're repenting worthy of repentance to To really have some time where you're living that out and doing that

Brenda (43:59.442)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I was thinking about some of the aspects for parents, the guilt, the fear, the shame, and I want to touch on one other. But before I go there, I just want to say is that, you know, I think as parents, we do have to take our own inventory of our parenting. And we did not cause our children's addiction. People are responsible for their own choices. But we may have contributed. We may have, we have our own responsibility in how we parent. And so one of the freeing things I think is for any parent is to be able to look at our

and say, gosh, there are some places that I wish I'd done things different. There are some places that I flat out sinned. There's some places I messed up. And for me to be able to go and ask forgiveness for that from the Lord and then go to my child and ask forgiveness from them as well, which I think is just really important to be able to continue to try to extend some olive branch to them as they struggle. The other aspect is just the tremendous amount of grief a parent feels.

Peggy Bruning (44:37.506)

too.

Brenda (45:01.92)

enters in because this is one of those situations where you have to stand and watch your stand by and watch your child self-destruct so often with absolutely no control or power or authority or ability to do anything about it. And so maybe you could just talk for a minute about that Peggy just to that grieving mom or dad just to the grief that's experienced.

Peggy Bruning (45:19.723)

Yeah.

It's so hard. If you look in the Bible in Luke, where it's the story of the prodigal son, you know, you hear that story all the time. And the dad let him go and he went and lived this crazy life until he came to this place of repentance. And then he came home. And I always think about it because that father didn't have to watch on Instagram or Facebook or have a cell phone where

and say I'm starving, I'm in a pig pen, and he's gotta see all those wild parties. So it's really hard now because you are watching, you're seeing a parent has to actually live it with them, which is so horrible and so different. You know, and there's this part of us that wants to see it, but doesn't wanna see it, and then it just adds fear and there's grief. And so, you know, I just,

Brenda (46:05.702)

Hmm.

Brenda (46:14.982)

Mm-hmm.

Peggy Bruning (46:20.846)

prayer, asking God, I promise you, like, we sometimes were like, all I can do is pray, but praying and listening to the Lord, like, I can tell you about pretty much every woman who comes into the ministry will tell you about a Christian who crossed their paths or moms who laid a foundation or this crazy woman at work that used to pray for them. And so,

They may not always respond well or right, but they see, like I saw the love of Christ in Jackie and in Debbie who discipled me before I ever opened God's word. And the fact that someone would get dirty, like Christ did, that would touch me, that wouldn't be afraid of me, that wouldn't be afraid of what was in my head and my heart. So I would, that's like showing love

praying for them that God would bring someone along their path. I can tell you about times when I knew God sent me an angel in my addiction. I can tell you about times in some of my darkest hours where I would just sit there and the drugs weren't working anymore. And it was it was my family. It was it was people who showed me love. It was.

the truth that had been shared with me that would speak into the darkness. And it would speak into the darkness. I would have these things in my heart where like how could she love me? How could God love me? And I would have these quiet dark moments between me and I didn't even know who he was at that moment. But when you're in that hopelessness, you do cry out to someone or something. So that prayer like,

Asking God when that grief is heavy asking like pouring out your grief to God He's not afraid of your pain telling them how scared you are telling them what's going on I know you talk about the lament but just really pouring that out to the Lord and telling him but then entrusting him Entrusting him because you don't know where your loved one is, but he does You don't know what's going on in their mind in their hearts

Peggy Bruning (48:39.51)

bring some across their path. One of the prayers that I pray when a girl will walk out of the ministry at times and I know she's about to go do something stupid, God spare her life, but do whatever it takes to bring her to the end of herself. And maybe that is jail. Maybe jail is the safest place for it was where I got, it got my attention. I had a three year prison sentence hanging over my head. That will get your attention, right? And so.

Brenda (49:04.702)

Mm.

Peggy Bruning (49:05.966)

God, do whatever it takes to bring them to the end of themselves, save their lives. So prayer, grief to others. Part of what happens is when you get to share your burden and have other people praying for you or have other people coming alongside of you because there are so many families in addiction right now. And just getting other people to talk to.

getting other people to pray with you, that's part of the deal, but also knowing that grief is part of it. But be careful because what you said before is like the enemy loves to come in and tell you if you had done this different, if you had done that, if you had done this. And that's why I started this by saying, listen, we don't know, like God gives us in his word some things, but who, like addiction is crazy, who knows how to.

love someone well through it. And there's been a couple of powerful teachings on the prodigal and just what love looks like. And sometimes love looks like recognizing their sin, like letting them heal their consequences, but being there to point them to a solution when they're ready to make a change.

Brenda (50:27.747)

So good.

Alex (50:27.882)

Meggie, you talked about sharing this struggle with other people. So how would you encourage people who are walking alongside parents whose children are struggling with addictions? Like what practical things would you tell them to do as they walk with them?

Peggy Bruning (50:32.5)

Mm-hmm.

Peggy Bruning (50:45.098)

So if you're walking alongside of a parent that is struggling with someone who has addiction, first of all, hear them and listen, like just let them share. Sometimes they just need to talk it through and to share it out there because it gets it out of the spin cycle when you sort of put it out and then let someone also speak some logic into it because sometimes

Brenda (50:58.971)

Mm-hmm.

Peggy Bruning (51:11.626)

you know, emotion is what is the first response. And so, like Brenda mentioned before, getting them to slow down and to pray and to not react and to think through because a lot of times an addict's chaos and urgency becomes ours. And we're, you know, we need to make informed wise decisions and what would be helpful. Also, looking towards the difference between

you know, short-term fixes and long-term help, you know, and if you're, it's just hard. And then there's lots of resources. There are some resources. There's some Facebook pages where moms of addicts that we like, where you, people share their story and you can glean from it. You know, there's a lot of, you just got to be careful what you find out there too.

because some of it's a little weird, but we're really trying to talk about just trying to get to the source of the addiction, the heart of it, and really trying to see if there's a physical addiction to something and if someone wants change. And so I think listening, praying with them, processing answers, finding resources.

communities that are Christian, I do not. Because I've been to so many different solutions that were not solutions, I just, I don't want anyone to waste their time with anything that isn't Christ because you may modify behavior for a while, you may get the addiction under control, but you're gonna see the problem show up somewhere different because it's a heart issue. And God tells you that out of the heart.

the issues of life and if we could really help them have a relationship with the Lord and know Christ and get them on the throne of their life that will help with not only addiction but he will help them be made whole. So you know I watch a lot of times in desperation parents go let's get him to a detox. Well a detox is great that is the medical component but that doesn't change anything that's like having cancer and taking a shower.

Peggy Bruning (53:34.262)

You just got the yuck off. Then they'll do like a 28 day program. Well, nothing really changes in 28 days, to be honest with you. Like, you barely know which way is up for the first two weeks. And then, you know, 28 days, you haven't really even scratched the surface of what's going on in your mind and your heart. So in my mind, if you're if someone's truly in addiction and they've.

been trying to get out of it and they want to get out of it. It's a long term journey. And you don't need to be in a program or ministry to, I've watched Jesus save people and disciples, people not in a program, but it's super hard because of all the temptations and the influences. And so sometimes a ministry like Renew or some of the other ones is,

Brenda (54:06.624)

Mm-hmm.

Peggy Bruning (54:30.542)

is they allow you to be in a safe place where your basic needs are met and the temptations are limited from outside resources and then you just get to sit at God's feet and find out who He is and discover who you know, if you, who you want Him to be in your life and if you're willing to follow Him because discipleship is always a choice.

and then being surrounded with other people who are on that same journey, which helps encourage you, you know, with the comfort that I got, I got to comfort others. And there's this great scripture in Thessalonians and you know, we want to tell people that Christ is the answer, but in Thessalonians, it says, you know, Paul said, I didn't just give you the gospel, the good news that Jesus died for you, that he loves you, even though you're a hope to die drug addict. And that,

His blood was enough to cover everything you've done and heal any hurt you have. But I didn't just give you the gospel, but I gave you my own life also. I did life with you, you know? And whether you're doing life with an addict and pointing them to Christ, or whether you're doing life with a parent and you're walking aside a friend or a parent who's got someone in addiction, you're just taking the truth of God's word, praying.

using the word to encourage, keeping their eyes on Jesus, and you're just doing life with them, which means when I'm scared, you listen. When I'm angry, you hear. Like you just help me do life, and you point me to Jesus.

Brenda (56:12.218)

Well, Peggy, we could continue to go on this topic because I know it's a passion of yours and it's such a timely word for sure. So, but for time's sake, we're gonna have to stop here. Maybe we can continue this conversation at another time. But...

Just to recap, I really appreciate you and your ministry, the freedom by which you are so willing to share your own story, and the yuck of addiction and the destruction of it, but how Christ came and brought you comfort. I was thinking the first comfort that he brought you was that he was there, he was present, he wanted you when nobody else did, that he cared about your mother dying and that he would forgive you for your sins. And so there's a holistic healing there that is so beautiful. So thank you so much.

Peggy Bruning (56:33.71)

Yes.

Peggy Bruning (56:49.098)

Yeah, absolutely.

Brenda (56:56.524)

We will post in our notes a little bit about, I think I have another copy of your testimony and then also the discipleship ministry that you are also ahead of. And we have a Facebook page as well that we'll post if people want to get in touch with you through that. So thank you again so much and we just pray God's biggest blessings on you and your ministry as you continue on.

Peggy Bruning (57:21.998)

Well, thank you for having me. I was blessed to be here.

Alex (57:25.398)

Thank you, Peggy.

Peggy Bruning (57:27.854)

You're welcome, Alex.