Season 6 Episode 4: Andrew Dealy

Brenda (00:04.278)

Well, Alex, in our help series today, we're going to be talking about the really difficult topic of suicide. And I am excited to introduce our guest, Andrew Daly.

Andrew is the executive director of the Austin Stone Counseling Center and director of Soul Care for the Austin Stone Community Church in Austin, Texas. He is a trainer and contributing writer to the Association of Biblical Counselors, which Alex and I have jumped on board with ABC recently as well, so we're real excited about our affiliation with them. Also, writes for the Biblical Counseling Coalition and is passionate about resourcing churches and ministries in Biblical Counseling. And so we definitely share that passion.

clear to me, Andrew, when we spoke this past May, God connected us through some mutual friends of mine, Carrie and Joe, who attend Austin Stone Community Church. And I called you, Andrew, just to get some ideas about church training. We're looking at doing some lay training in the church that I attend. And that conversation just led to other topics, and I loved all the things you were saying. It just made my

Brenda (01:14.02)

something like that you were die hard that the gospel is enough and I was like that's it that's it he's our guy it we got to get him on the podcast and before praying and before talking to Alex or Malia or anything I just blurted out like hey I have a podcast with a friend you want to be honest and then I kind of had to send you an email afterwards backing up to go like I normally don't react that compulsively but I really just felt such a kindred heart and just so excited and I did go back and pray and I talked to Alex and I

Brenda (01:43.96)

I looked up about more about you to see if you were legit, you know. But one of the things I asked you that day that we talked was just maybe your areas of expertise or experience or where really your heart was. I know that it's in all of the areas of counseling because we're about the gospel and about Jesus and about connecting the gospel to people and we can do that through any avenue. But one of the areas that you mentioned was the area of suicide.

Andrew Dealy (01:57.128)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (02:13.96)

to mind as someone that we should reach out to and you've so graciously, you know, been willing to accept our invitation to come on today. And so just in the way of getting started and for our audience to get to know you, maybe you could share a little bit about your personal testimony and how that's led you to the work or kind of this emphasis in this area of suicide.

Andrew Dealy (02:36.644)

Yeah, absolutely. And first off, just thanks for having me on. That phone call for me was also a gift. It's always a unique pleasure to get to connect with kindred spirits, you know, in different geographical places and to see how the Lord's working all over the place. And so it was a blessing to get invited to do this. And so my background, I mean, I grew up in a broken home. Parents divorced when I was young. So I grew up with a lot of dysfunction, was well acquainted with death at a very early age.

true middle child, so peacemaker, want to hold everything together, make sure everybody else is okay, and also kind of lost in the middle. And so I was kind of on a trajectory from an early age of caring for people. Either I wanted to be a pastor or a counselor from like eighth grade on. It was either that or what my testing told me was I should be a meteorologist, and I decided to pass on that one and head in the direction of caring for others. Although now I'm still like, I love meteorology.

Andrew Dealy (03:31.152)

But it was in between my freshman year and sophomore year at Baylor University when I lost my father to suicide. And that was a significant trajectory changing event in terms of my view on where God was leading me to go and also developing my heart for caring for people in dire straits and having a hard time. You could go back in my family's generation or my family history, five generations.

Brenda (03:38.518)

Hmm

Alex (03:42.211)

Mm.

Andrew Dealy (03:55.172)

and you'd find at least one completed suicide up into my current generation. So my current generation, although there have been attempts, there have been no completed suicides at this point. So my hope and my longing is this is the first generation in quite some time that within my family that holds true, that that'll be the case, that we avoid that same type of trajectory. And so that kind of set me on the path of again, ministry, pastoral care, loving on the broken and the hurting.

Brenda (03:58.193)

Hmm

Brenda (04:20.099)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (04:22.368)

And then also researching a lot about suicide and how it functions in our society and what things we can do to be helpful in that process. And so, yeah, that's kind of my background on that section. There's been a lot more with that, but.

Brenda (04:34.306)

Wow.

Brenda (04:38.634)

Well, I did not know that and that is powerful. Thank you for sharing that and incredibly heartbreaking as well. So thank you. But it's one of the things that we're really highlighting in this series is so often how God does use those broken places in our lives to bring gospel hope to us. And then how we can pass that along to other people. So I'm so sorry for the loss that's there, but so thankful for the way the Lord is using it in your life now.

Andrew Dealy (05:04.842)

Thank you.

Brenda (05:09.969)

Yeah, you said that this has led you in a trajectory to learn more just about suicide. And I guess one of the first questions I would just have is kind of the why question, I guess. The big question of, you know, what is it that brings a person to the brink and even pushes them over to want to end their life?

Andrew Dealy (05:32.764)

Mm-hmm. I'd say there's a number of reasons that can get a person to that place, where their thoughts are leaning in the direction of is better to not exist to exist. Mainly what we're gonna find usually at the core is this lack of meaning. In other words, purpose and drive and meaning in life has somehow been afforded or lost. That brings a person to, again, what's kind of a logical

disconnected thinking process, meaning this. Once we get to the place we think that it'd be better not to exist, there's an assumption that non-existence is better, yet that's absolutely not something that we've experienced. In other words, we have a false conclusion based on something that we think, whatever comes next must be better than what I'm experiencing now. And I'd say that's one of the great difficulties when struggling with suicidality is it locks you in the present and kind of writes the rest of the story.

Brenda (06:29.91)

Hmm

Andrew Dealy (06:30.276)

It locks you in this present sense of hopelessness, that things are not gonna change, the suffering is not gonna go away, there's no meaning to any of it. And so then I write the rest of my life story in light of my current feeling. And that story is obviously tragic, dark, and won't change. So then naturally the question is, well, what's the point? Now, what's the point of carrying on if this is not gonna change, or if there's no meaning or purpose connected to this?

So I say at its core, that's the main message that tends to resonate in the heart. Now I want to add a bit of a slant to that. You also have, you know, Philippians 1, the Apostle Paul bringing to bear, hey, it'd be better to depart and be with Christ. In other words, there's almost this weird positive side from a Christian perspective and what we understand of the gospel of when life comes to a close, we know we are entering into the far better thing. I think it's so sweet that in Scripture, the Apostle Paul models this longing for, no, it would be far better.

Andrew Dealy (07:25.144)

Even as he's talking to the Philippian church and saying, guys, you're great, Jesus is way better. I'd rather be with Jesus right now. And yet he models this concluding thought of, but if the Lord still has me here, then there's work to be done and that work is worthy of being here, of being done. In other words, he locates meaning that God owns my life and he's going to direct it according to his purposes. And so I think from a Christian perspective, we have this unique way that we can engage with temptation or feelings of suicidality.

Brenda (07:30.943)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (07:54.348)

and actually cast it in a lens that says, no, you're longing for the better thing. That's actually a good longing. As long as it's located in what Christ provides and in where he's leading us, that longing is actually not something we want to get rid of. In other words, if you're fundamentally utterly contented in this life and you're longing for nothing else, then you're missing a significant part of the gospel. You're missing, your desires are too low for what God has for you. And so those are the two lanes in terms of.

Brenda (07:58.914)

Mm.

Andrew Dealy (08:21.936)

thinking about Suicide Addict Christian perspective, then I'd say from a baseline worldly perspective, getting to a place where we feel like everything's absent of meaning, there is no purpose, I can't escape it, it's never gonna change, therefore.

Brenda (08:34.018)

Hmm.

Alex (08:34.39)

Yeah. And then Andrew, when I'm hearing you talk, I'm hearing the language of like suicidal thought versus suicidal intent.

So there's a place where it changes. And maybe, I love the distinction you're making that for believers, there's a suicide, not a suicidal longing, a longing for what comes next. But then within the realm of someone who's struggling with suicidal thought, where does it change and what do people need to be looking for when it becomes intent?

Andrew Dealy (08:44.795)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (09:08.592)

This is a great question. So I love generally democratizing the reality of suicidal ideation. So I'd say everybody has suicidal thoughts at one point or another. Meaning everybody's been driving over that really tall bridge and thought, oh, what if I just pull the steering wheel off to the side and what would happen? That's natural, that's human, nothing to be scared of there. It's just intuitively our brain is like, well, that would be interesting. Oh, that's a bad idea. Most of us stay in the lane and keep going. The suicidal intention, and I'd say this is obviously

Alex (09:14.666)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (09:24.473)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (09:38.32)

Apostle Paul models the opposite. I have a longing for this difficulty to be done. I have a longing for the suffering of life to be finished. And yet I'm not my own. I trust my savior who made me and knows me better than I know myself. And so he locks into, therefore I move forward. So this suicidal thought to some degree, this thought of I'd like to be done gets encapsulated in, but my life was never my own. I'm created, I didn't self-create. I'm made for something, I'm not made for myself.

Therefore I submit my life in that direction. And I'd say that's the fulcrum point. The fulcrum is when we start to believe my life is my own and I have now determined my quality of life is insufficient to keep me going. That it's unfair for me to have to remain in this quality of life, I deserve something better. And so now I'm gonna grasp onto what I think will lead to life or will lead to relief and move in that direction. In other words, I say at its core, and I mean, this might well certainly sound a little bit blunt,

The heart of suicidality and moving into suicidal intent is going to have at its core helplessness coupled with pride. A helplessness of I'm stuck and I cannot fix it. And then the pride to believe my life is my own to do with it what I will. When in reality, we're not isolated. Anybody who takes their life, there's communal impact. There's ongoing consequences and damage that affects society. I can speak from my own family system. I know why my father took his life. I understand he had made some...

Brenda (10:43.426)

Hmm

Alex (10:50.332)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (10:51.534)

That's good.

Alex (10:57.292)

Yeah.

Andrew Dealy (11:05.32)

just brutal decisions. He'd come clean to the family about those brutal decisions and he could no longer sit under the weight of those consequences. Like he could see the data moving forward that there's kind of too big of a ditch for him to dig out of. And so in his mind, the thinking was, well, it's better for me not to be here that these consequences could be avoided. And so I can logically connect the dots, but the impact holistically on the family was, I think far worse than he could understand. But the pain in the moment,

Alex (11:31.968)

Yeah.

Andrew Dealy (11:33.868)

will blind the individual to that. And the pride of the moment that says, my life is my own to do with it what I will. And also the pride that says, and what I'm gonna decide to do next is better than frankly what God would bring to bear, what God might lead me to do.

Alex (11:39.609)

Yeah.

Alex (11:48.706)

So I love the way you're framing it because hopelessness, pride, and the idea that I know better than God are things that I struggle with on a moment by moment basis. And I'm not hearing anything that...

Andrew Dealy (12:02.664)

Thank you.

Alex (12:08.934)

separates me from God eternally. And I say that because there's been such a belief still running, I think still heard in Christian circles, that suicide is an unforgivable sin, that there's something particular about suicide that denies God and therefore separates us from him. And yet the way you're framing it doesn't sound that way at all.

Andrew Dealy (12:31.904)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'd say I struggle with the same things as you do. Wonderful that scripture says these things are common to mankind. The theological debate on it being the unpardonable sin, man, that's been going on for millennia at this point, which again, I think it's a reasonable question to ask. From a clinical therapeutic side of things, it's not the question that we really need to wrestle with. Ultimately, God is the one who decides, and God is good and faithful and loving, and he knows.

Alex (12:39.561)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (13:01.648)

What we get to operate with is the limited knowledge we have. What does it look like to love people and not struggle? Or frankly, let's say to love the family that's maybe left behind. Their initial question might be the theological one. Am I gonna see them again in heaven? And I think with confidence, I can say, I really don't know, but I trust God who's good. And in the meantime, we gotta work through what it looks like for us to grieve this process, to work through the reality of what's happened, the unthinkable has happened.

Brenda (13:10.533)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (13:29.552)

And how do we reintegrate that into life that we might be able to move forward, still trusting and believing that God is good while acknowledging the grief and pain of what's been lost. And so I'm with you on that. And I think our hearts, generally speaking, we wanna lean into this empathetic, compassionate, the answer yes or no, I don't think is really gonna provide comfort for the most part to people, or at least if it does, it's a temporary comfort. It doesn't answer the rest of the question.

Alex (13:50.155)

All right.

Alex (13:55.993)

Yeah.

Andrew Dealy (13:56.324)

For to put it theologically though, like if the last thing I do is sin, and I don't repent of it, am I done? I think logically it lines up with that type of questioning. I think all of us would say no. If the last thing I do is sin, which I could probably 100% guarantee the last thing I will do before I depart is sin, because the totality of sin in my life is so astronomical. It's God's grace that I can't even see it. Well then it's a different conversation.

It's in a moment of weakness, someone bends the knee to sin and the consequences is loss of life versus the consequences, you know, something less drastic. I think God's able to handle both.

Brenda (14:22.485)

Mm-mm.

Brenda (14:34.762)

You just talked about the impact earlier, you know, that suicide has on the family members, their friends, and I'm just wondering if you could speak some to that because it seems to me I love what you said that suicide locks you in the present and writes the rest of the story.

but it seems like to me it might write out other people in the story because you're not thinking about the impact. And so just from your own experience with your father and as you've walked with people, can you tell us a little bit about what that impact looks like and the things that...

you know, the loved ones are going to suffer with and struggle with. One, just, you know, in hopes that maybe somebody will look outside themselves, that this is actually going to have an impact on others. And two, maybe some encouragement for those who have had a loved one who has chosen this path.

Andrew Dealy (15:28.776)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'd say it's quite difficult to frame up with any particular predictable clarity what impact it will have on an individual's life. And this is really, I'd say, the nature of suffering. We all know what it is to suffer, to experience external suffering. So suffering like abuse or trauma or the loss of a loved one. And yet the response, how an individual will respond to that type of moment is usually shaped by, again, where their heart's at.

how they're interpreting the suffering, what meaning they're making of it. So if you have an individual who loses a loved one to suicide and the meaning they make of it is that person was unendingly selfish, prideful, didn't care about anybody else and chose themself above all else. You're gonna see a very particular type of trajectory of meaning making based off of that narrative. In other words, their way of coping and even separating themselves out from the danger of essentially so they could feel safe that I'm not the type of person that would commit suicide.

Brenda (16:18.391)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (16:27.46)

is they then demonize or emphasize the negative aspects of that person to try and separate themselves from it. And then you'll see a different kind of response to that. On the other side of the equation, or maybe even on the other side of the pool, you have the individual who looks at that situation and says with compassion and empathy, oh, it was just a moment of weakness, they couldn't help themselves, even to the extent of maybe removing responsibility.

Brenda (16:32.803)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (16:51.1)

but they were so locked in that ditch that they really didn't have any other choice. And you'd see a different response, I think, throughout the lifespan based on that meaning-making. Again, I'd say the truth, generally speaking, is going to lie somewhere in the middle. Is there selfishness and pride that plays in that individual? And is there a weakness that feels too much to overcome? Yeah, probably all of the above. And so then for the individual experiencing that loss, I mean, good golly, it will depend on age of the individual. If we're talking about a

Andrew Dealy (17:21.404)

The meaning making and the formation it's gonna have on life is gonna be quite different. I'd say in my own life, it's progressively shaped me into a person who is comfortable diving into crisis, who generally speaking, I lean more on the empathetic side that I think my dad in a moment of weakness thought he was doing the noble thing, that it wasn't in his mind selfish. It was noble for him to choose to save the family from that type of difficulty. And so my meaning making from there takes on a different form. I'm not.

Brenda (17:42.303)

Right.

Andrew Dealy (17:50.3)

bitter towards my father, I'm not angry towards him. There was a time when I was, like early on in the process, that's as very angry with the decision he made. But as I thought through it and worked through our history together, it just didn't seem to fit. And so my hope is to have as charitable response to his decisions as I can. Then for everybody else, yeah, I'd say you could name any type of response to any type of trauma and it would kind of fit with this type of scenario. Some people are just gonna bury it as though it's nothing.

Brenda (18:04.372)

Hmm.

Brenda (18:16.45)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (18:19.712)

and just move on. Other people, it's gonna become the thing that shapes their life. You had mentioned earlier about God using suffering and our difficulties to help others. So in my own story, I'll tell you, he very specifically did that. So within the first year of losing my dad, so my sophomore year of Baylor, I'd disciple four guys that would lose their father in the same year. So there was a real tactile, I can sit across the table with them and go, hey, I know this feels impossible.

Brenda (18:44.447)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (18:48.548)

I know it feels like there's no way to get through this, but I want to speak this life into you. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. And yet even in that care and connection, I've got to consider those four individuals are not me. The path and the journey that the Lord has for them to walk through in healing will not look the same as mine. And there's a real danger if I take what worked for me and I just slap it onto their story and say, this should work exactly the same for you. I mean, that's just not generally the way the Lord works. I mean, you could look at, I think one of the greatest examples of this,

Brenda (18:59.499)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (19:08.675)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (19:16.324)

Look at Jesus and the way he heals people in the Gospels. It is almost as though he goes out of his way every single time to do it utterly differently. He almost never does it the same way. Sometimes it's long distance healing. Sometimes it's through touching. Sometimes it's through spit and mud. And so what's the point? It seems Jesus is modeling that God so uniquely interacts with us as individual children that the story and the way he brings about healing is not quite the same.

Brenda (19:19.586)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (19:42.552)

And so for each of us, as we look to be those who lovingly bring the comfort of God into other people's pains and difficulty, it's nice to have a story that connects. But the greater thing is bringing the comfort of God, not our singular comfort, but rather the comfort of God that He has given us, that we might lead others into the journey that the Lord has for them in that process, which, yeah, it's always different.

Brenda (20:05.898)

I enjoy all that is so rich. It's just so good, all of it. Just again, my heart's like going, kind of exploding, going, oh, it just resonates. It's all so good. What?

I would imagine, I know for me and for others, if you have a friend who is suffering and struggling, looking depressed, discouraged, and even going into despair, what might be some of the signs you might look for that somebody is headed toward a suicide event or, you know,

situation and if somebody were to come to you and say hey I want to end my life or I'm going to end my life how would you respond to that?

Andrew Dealy (20:50.736)

Mm-hmm. So I think you actually probably nailed most of the clear symptoms that we'd be looking for if somebody who's heading on a trajectory of suicidal ideation. So isolation, depression, lack of enjoyment in things that they used to enjoy, lack of connection with people or places or things that they used to more often engage with. So those are the generic. I'd say generally speaking, oftentimes we'll be able to pick up on the things

the mental health issues, emotional issues that would indicate this might be a person struggling with that. And on the other side of it, you have this whole other situation where there are those who will present the exact opposite, highly extroverted, energetic, excited, but internally they're dying. Internally they feel disconnected without meaning or like a fraud walking around in life. And so one of the key indicators we look for are those cries for help that will come.

Brenda (21:37.62)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (21:48.328)

It's those moments where a person will just say, man, I just want to go to sleep and not wake up. Which sounds like just a hyperbolic throwaway phrase. But from time to time, those are the cries for help of an individual saying, no, life feels unmanageable. I don't want to see tomorrow. I'd rather just be done right now. And I'd say one of the most helpful things we can do is engage with those types of moments.

Brenda (21:52.802)

Mm.

Andrew Dealy (22:12.184)

those types of cries for help, where I'd say rarely are you going to have the person who walks up to you and says, hey, I kind of want to end my life. Can you help me out? The majority of them are going to him and ha and hint at and talk about how hard things are and make these offended comments about, I just don't feel like it's worth it to do this anymore. And that's the invitation. There's a testing of the water. Are you the type of person who can have that depth of conversation with me? I'm assuming those offended comments, I would recommend asking.

Brenda (22:33.006)

Mm.

Andrew Dealy (22:39.62)

Hey, I just want to check with you. I know you're kind of saying it off the cuff, but I just want to check in with you on this is ending your life something that you're actually wrestling with. Research indicates even to ask the question that directly where people might have a fear of, oh, am I going to kind of by inception put suicidal ideation in their head? Research indicates that that's not the case. In other words, you'll tend to have two responses in that moment from the individual, either it'll be like, yes, it's been really hard and it's really dark, in which case you've now connected at the depth of intimacy that they were hoping to get.

Brenda (22:58.403)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (23:09.212)

they could find somebody who's willing to have that level of conversation with them. Or you'll get the opposite response who's like, oh my gosh, no, like I was just kidding, everything's fine. And even if the response is the latter, we have this opportunity to lean in and just go, oh, okay, well, I'm thrilled to hear that. But I just want you to know, if you ever get to that space, I'm happy to talk with you about that. I'm here, I'm present, I care about you. I just want you to know that's not off limits. Like we can have that type of conversation. I mean, so those are the generics. The

Historically, research has indicated the most dangerous time for those who deal with suicidal ideation is when they're doing great, which confounds the whole situation. So you've got somebody who's been dealing with depression and isolating and struggling, and every time you hang with them, it's like you feel the eor is there and it's just a drag. They're less at risk in that moment because that usually means the wrestle is still ongoing. They're still battling with, is it worth it to take my life or not?

Brenda (23:49.223)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (24:06.158)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (24:06.64)

But the moment you meet with them and everything seems fine, everything seems great, the depression is just gone. That is the time to be most concerned and the time I would highly recommend asking the question very directly if they've already resolved to take their life. Because research has shown that when somebody gets to the place of making that commitment and saying, nope, I've finally decided I'm gonna take my life, there's relief.

All that dissonance and all that anxiety around decision fatigue and paralysis of analysis is now done. And so there's literally a physiological relief that happens and all of a sudden they present as though things are great. And you think, if you're not aware of this background information, you think, oh, wow, they made it through. Everything is awesome. And then sadly, what you often find is within short order, they make an attempt of suicide. So that's what we want to watch for. There are other elements like if they start giving away stuff and things like that, that have been...

Brenda (24:32.814)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (25:00.968)

classic research base. Again, if they're letting go of valuable things, if the way they communicate is kind of existentially meaning of life, the way they talk to you is as though they're saying goodbye, you know, you just pick up on, well, this is a deeper conversation than we normally have. It's a good time once again, to lean in and ask the question of, hey, like, I know you struggle with suicide like I did before, where are you at with that? I'm gonna ask them that directly.

Brenda (25:13.73)

Hmm.

Brenda (25:25.358)

Hmm.

Alex (25:28.138)

And if the answer is yes, Andrew, are there specific steps you take?

Andrew Dealy (25:34.456)

So traditional suicide assessment is going to work through a number of particular questions. I will say in the scenario we just drew up where they struggle with suicidal ideation, they're at a place of decision to end their life, it's really you make the call to 911 or some form of mental health care. So we've got Travis integral care over in my neck of the woods and you get them on a suicide watch. One of the saddest things related to suicide in terms of the data.

is that there's not much you can do once a person has made a decision. The most functional thing you can do is get them on a suicide watch and remove the means and potential for it happening right away. The hope is that the gap in time will give them time to recalibrate, to rethink life, to listen to other voices. That would counsel them around meaning, around purpose, around how much it would hurt if they ever left, around impact, like that there is hope, that this is not the end of the story.

Brenda (26:06.133)

Mm.

Andrew Dealy (26:28.88)

But the data historically has backed up that once a person makes a decision, it is nearly impossible to shift them off of it, apart from a significant event happening. And so that's why suicidal watch are getting them committed. In other words, don't play around with it. If they said that they're committed to doing this, then it's a straight phone call and stay with them until help arrives. If it's someone who's saying, no, I wrestle with suicidal ideation, then there are a number of questions we're working through. We're working through how often do you think about it? So we're looking for frequency.

If their frequency is low, I think about it once every six months or whatever else, then we're not really worried about it. If they're saying, I cannot stop thinking about it every time I get in my car. I think about just driving it off a bridge. Okay. Well, we've got more concern at that point. Then we work through means. Have you thought through how you would take your life? Do you have an idea of how you would do it? If they say yes, we follow up with the next question. Do you have those means? So if they say I would do it.

by rope or by pills or by whatever it might be. Then we ask them that they have the means. And the follow up question after that is will you give me the means? If they tell you they're thinking about suicide, they have the means and they're unwilling to give it up, again, I would say you make the phone call and get them on a suicide watch so that they can't harm themselves. The other questions in the assessment are gonna be have you ever attempted suicide in the past?

That question is the number one predictor of future suicide. So someone who has attempted at any point in life is already at a very high level of risk in terms of suicide assessment. It is the number one predictor of them trying again. In terms of the gender split, men tend to attempt suicide less but are far more successful at suicide because they tend to use more aggressive means. Women tend to attempt suicides far more often and are less successful in those attempts.

Usually an escalation though, which is part of the reason why we ask the question of have you attempted in the past and let's say yes, they've attempted, they tried to, you know, overdose on something like NyQuil. What you would expect in the next attempt is there's going to be an escalation in means, which might include a knife or some other more physical means. Last thing to kind of keep in mind with the means piece of the puzzle is there's research indicates a pretty big difference between passive and active means related to suicide.

Brenda (28:32.238)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (28:46.524)

So passive means, if a person says, well, I just wanna fall asleep and not wake up. That's a passive means of suicide, or like I just wanna get hit by a bus. That's a passive means, it's not an active, I don't wanna take my life, I want my life to be taken from me. Active means where it's, you know, gun or knife or some other means like that, we're much more concerned with them moving forward with that. And also, obviously, the success rate of suicide in those cases goes up quite significantly on the active side of things.

So again, in the scenario we described, I'd straight up just make the call, get them on a suicide watch, try and engage with the community and the people that have most meaning in their life to get them around them to speak life into them. If it's somebody just expressing suicidation, all those questions again, are gonna be what I work through. Frequency, means, have you attempted in the past, and all of that.

Alex (29:38.442)

And I hear you very clearly saying, get them on a suicide watch, not become a suicide watch for them.

Andrew Dealy (29:46.584)

Yes, 100%. You wanna call 911 or get them help with somebody who knows how to do that well. They're gonna put them in a physiological safe place. I do wanna be clear though, that is a traumatic experience. And so even how we communicate it with the individual, we wanna kind of cast it all in, I love you too much, even though this is going to be really difficult, I love you too much to let you leave here with the potential that you would do irreparable damage to yourself.

Because there are other elements of this that we haven't really talked about and we don't need to get in too deep But there's the reality of attempted suicides can also have lifelong consequences that aren't death They can have unintended consequences that leave them in a situation that ends up being physiological Physiologically far worse than what they anticipated And that's the that's what pain tends to do to us pain kind of puts blinders on and we can only see the pain in front of us and we'll do whatever we can to get relief from that pain and it

kind of keeps us from seeing that there are actually far more additional risks at play here because we're so focused on the singular relief that we lose the reality that no, things could go very wrong and not in the way that you're intending.

Alex (30:57.746)

Andrew, do you use like a no suicide contract in any situation? Do you know what I mean by that? Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (31:05.976)

Oh, totally. So standard policy for all, I'd say medical professionals and particularly counselors is yes, we'll use a suicide contract. Again, I haven't seen the most recent data, but historically suicide contracts have zero to no impact on the individual's choice related to suicide. In other words, the no suicide contract is more of an ethical standard so that if a counselor is seeing a client and they do end up taking their life, we can essentially have a paper trail that shows we did.

the most of what we could to try and prevent it. In other words, I say that not because we shouldn't do suicide contracts, but not to put our hope in them. The suicide contract, yeah, I was just gonna say the suicide contract is more of a covering my ethical reality while hoping, like Lord willing, maybe the Lord would use that in an individual's life, but the research doesn't really indicate it has any utility apart from more ethical related questions.

Alex (31:42.722)

Well, I think it's helpful. Yeah. Go ahead.

Brenda (31:42.786)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (31:51.435)

Yeah.

Right?

Alex (32:01.106)

Okay, that's helpful, I hope, for people who are listening to our podcast because we're talking to people who we want to use the concepts of counseling in a lot of lay ministry. And so you're helping me to know I need to use that and I have used it frequently, but that it's probably not going to be helpful for the mentoring relationship in the church to use something like a no suicide contract.

Andrew Dealy (32:27.436)

Mm-hmm. I mean, again, I still think it's a useful thing to apply. There's far more effectiveness on if we can get the individual to anchor into meaning than just about anything else. Whether that meaning is something even along the lines of, well, yeah, I can't do that to my kids or I can't leave my spouse or whatever the meaning might be. It might be a negative version of the meaning, but that's going to have far more impact in terms of preventing the behavior than the paper contract.

Alex (32:32.353)

Yeah.

Alex (32:39.854)

Yeah.

Brenda (32:45.614)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (32:57.34)

But I'd say best practice, do the no suicide contracts for sure. Just don't bank our hope on it and hope that the Lord uses it in some unique ways.

Alex (33:07.638)

You know, I've never made this connection, Philippians 1. I mean, my desire is to part and be with Christ, but to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Like, you're right, it's right there. Never put it together in all the years of memorizing Philippians. That it's right there. That we have to turn our attention or a struggler's attention to what is necessary on someone else's account.

Brenda (33:18.894)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Alex (33:37.082)

Uh, yeah, I love that. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (33:37.16)

Yeah, that's part of the pivot. That's why I unendingly love the Bible. I think it's unendingly the greatest book and the most helpful book. Because we jump into Matthew 4, and again, this is one that perhaps is not often taught about, but Satan tempts Jesus to suicide. And again, the temptation I think still hits the core of what the rest of suicidality is. What is Satan tempting Jesus to do? Well, cast yourself off of this hillside. Choose the easier path to get the kingdom.

Alex (33:42.655)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (33:43.007)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (34:06.147)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (34:06.312)

Choose the easier, more simple, more clean path. You don't have to go the cross. You don't have to suffer anymore. You don't have to face what's ahead. You can simply choose this method and it will be better. And I'd say that's the ethos, that's the reality beneath most suicidal ideation is the belief this is the easier path. This will get me to the relief that I long for. And it's, again, I would say deception. But when we democratize this reality, and I think you can normalize it for individuals of, hey, Jesus knows what that's like.

He knows what it's like to be tempted to take the short road. And then we also have the apostle Paul and could say the same, that he understands, no, it is unendingly attractive to be done, to no longer have to wrestle, to no longer have to fight, to get to be with Jesus face to face. That is by far the better thing. Yet faith would invite us to believe, and this is where 2 Corinthians gets into this as well, that our current and present suffering is somehow connected to our eternal experience. So the apostle Paul talks about our light and momentary affliction, which thanks for that one, Paul.

Brenda (34:44.878)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (35:05.252)

This light momentary affliction is rolling in with us and preparing us for eternity, which is a fascinating statement that somehow our current suffering is making us ready for the far better thing. It's not disconnected, it's not arbitrary, it's not accidental. It has inherent purpose that connects with the eternal. And I think if we can hold some of that together in terms of the way we think about our suffering presently, well it recasts our difficulty and

Brenda (35:26.21)

That's right.

Andrew Dealy (35:35.196)

The suffering with unending meaning and purpose. It has a direction to it. It's not just for the fun of it or God's not just being mean. It's somehow connected. And we also have to hold, we don't get to have clarity on exactly how that's connected in the here and now. We have to hold to the mystery and this is why faith is required. Faith is required because I can't tell you exactly how it is. I don't know, but I trust my Heavenly Father who says that somehow it is.

Brenda (35:38.443)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (35:45.166)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (35:51.382)

But yeah.

Brenda (35:54.166)

Yeah.

Brenda (35:58.936)

Yeah.

Brenda (36:03.53)

You know, as we're talking here, I'm just thinking how the best line of defense against suicide is not a professional. It's a friend.

It's a husband, it's a wife, it's a family member. And even as you were describing, like somebody could be look very depressed and very suicidal, but somebody could also look like they've overcome. And the only way you're really gonna even have any idea about that shift is to walk closely with other people and allow other people to walk closely with you and to know your struggle.

Alex (36:29.17)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (36:34.266)

And so we, you know, as we back, as we back kind of way up and we think about, we talk about our superpowers being, you know, the word of God, the Holy Spirit, and then the community that God has given us, spirit-filled leavers to walk with us. I just can see where this discussion lends itself so well to just that admonition and that exhortation that we need to know people and be known deeply in people in our lives. Because any one of us right here could be that person. We could come to a place in our...

lives where we are despairing that much, whether it's a chronic illness or a significant loss or you know we find ourselves in a situation where we've done something we said we would never do and might think that we too might you know want to end our lives and so I just I really want to encourage our listeners that we think I think we can be so afraid of this idea of suicide but there's so much that can be done before in relating and comforting and

ever get to that point and certainly to be the person that can show up if the person is at that point to get them to a professional to get them someplace safe for a suicide watch. So I just think the community is just vital in this.

Andrew Dealy (37:48.696)

Yeah, I cannot agree more, Brenda. And I think it's an area that we've, we've got some, let's say, room for growth. I think connecting it to 2 Corinthians 12 and the Apostle Paul talking about his thorn in the flesh, that, you know, he asked three times that God remove and God said, nope. And Paul gets the place of receiving it and saying, okay, well, if God's powers made perfect in my weakness, then what I'm going to bring to the table is my weakness. I think we err when we think what people need most is our strength.

Brenda (37:55.138)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (38:15.873)

Yeah.

Alex (38:15.95)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (38:16.088)

our greatest asset is our weakness that displays our need for Christ. What people need to see in despair is, no, I know what despair tastes like, and I found in Christ the only hope, the only foundation, the only rock that is immovable, the only place to anchor that will not change, that will not leave or betray you. So in community, I think at times we can fall into this habit of community is always happy and always great and always victorious and everything's going wonderfully.

Brenda (38:19.906)

Yeah.

Brenda (38:28.322)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (38:39.619)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (38:41.38)

Apostle Paul models this, no, I'm the worst of all sinners. You know why God saved me? So that you know nobody's beyond his redemptive arm. What's the Apostle Paul bringing to the table? He's bringing the darkness of his path that he murdered Christians. And he's bringing that as his message so that people will see and understand it's not Paul, it's Christ. In a similar way, if we have communities marked by weakness where we come alongside people and we're able to say, no, I've tasted and I've seen suicidal ideation. I know what that feels like and it is miserable.

Brenda (38:48.302)

Mm-hmm

Brenda (38:54.638)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (39:10.5)

And yet I found in Christ, there is always hope. It's not gonna be easy, but he's here, he's present. And if we live in that type of community, where people feel the freedom to voice early on in the process, hey, I'm just struggling, I'm having a hard time. And that we're a place where that's just normal. Like it's normal to have a hard time, it's normal to have difficulty, it's normal to struggle. That community will thrive, because that community will depend on Christ and not some lesser thing.

Brenda (39:20.835)

Hmm hmm. Hmm. Hmm hmm.

Brenda (39:26.891)

Yes.

Brenda (39:37.626)

Amen. I couldn't agree with that more. And to your point, it's a

Brenda (39:43.566)

place that we can grow and that community starts with you and me and Alex and those listening, it starts with our willingness to be vulnerable, to bring our brokenness and weakness and it really does encourage other people then to open up and to really know that on a heart level, there's nothing somebody else is struggling with that at some heart level we haven't also struggled with and know what that's about. I am curious just to know what you're thinking is, we're hearing the suicide rates are going up and particularly among young people.

Andrew Dealy (40:05.07)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (40:13.68)

And what's your thoughts on why in this cultural moment we are seeing such an influx of young people struggling with suicide and the number of suicides increasing?

Andrew Dealy (40:25.916)

That's a great question. I have a very particular answer, which would get us into a whole different genre of topic for today that we don't have time to dive into. So I'm just gonna mention, and then if you all wanna dive in at some future date, I'd be happy to do so. The thing I teach on most in the past three or four years is on gender and sexuality. And so what I've seen, particularly among adolescents and teenagers who are being given a message of, you are the definer of who you are.

Brenda (40:40.287)

Awesome.

Brenda (40:47.159)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (40:55.14)

You're the only one that can figure out who you are and how to define what it means to be you. The way we said this nicely in American culture is you can be whatever you wanna be, which sounds great, it sounds inspirational, but we've neglected the back end of that phrase is if you can be whatever you wanna be, that means you were designed for nothing. And so if that's what we're asking adolescents and teens to hold onto is there's, you have to make your own meaning. You have to design your own purpose for life. You have to cobble together from the dust of the earth.

Brenda (41:24.482)

Hehehe

Andrew Dealy (41:24.568)

some way of defining who you are. Well, no human being in the history of mankind has been able to handle that mantle. From the very beginning, you go back to Genesis, you know, one and two, and God designs Adam and Eve and puts him in the garden. And even in the garden, God puts the tree of the knowledge of good and evil right smack dab in the middle of the garden, meaning this, even in perfection, God was saying, Adam and Eve, you're dependent on me. You're dependent on my counsel. Even in perfection, you're not meant to live autonomously as a self-defining.

Brenda (41:47.15)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (41:52.432)

You know, creature, you're meant to live as someone who's already been defined. And so I think the loss of that idea, the loss of a structured identity, where we get to like Psalm 139, he knit you in your mother's womb, he set your days before you. He's perfectly put you together. Ephesians 2 10, your Christ workmanship. Christ is handcrafted and you set good works before you that you would walk in them. This idea of, you know, I've been made for this exact time and place, the way I am, for the purposes that God has set before me. That gives meaning.

Brenda (41:58.978)

Hmm.

Andrew Dealy (42:22.768)

That gives handlebars for life. The opposite is you are accidentally here, you can be whatever you want to be, good luck. And people are wilting under the pressure of trying to figure out how to self-define who they are. And that leads to naturalized anxiety and depression and the proliferation of all the orientation and terminology words. We're up to 100 plus different orientation words because the natural outworking of this, I honestly believe will end up with 7.9 billion different terms.

Brenda (42:24.751)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (42:50.588)

because if I am the only one who defines who I am, I need my very own unique specific term for myself. Now, biblically again, we have this beautiful idea for the children of God. We roll into heaven and I mentioned it earlier before we got onto this, we get a new name. We are given a unique and specific name by the one who created us. It's already been determined, we're created. We have purpose and direction, we're made. We're not self-made. And so that I believe is the core,

Andrew Dealy (43:20.08)

what our teens and adolescents are feeling is, it doesn't feel like there's any meaning. And if I build with sand this shape of a meaning, it falls down so easily. It gets knocked down so quickly. And so that feels unendingly unstable. And so here we are.

Brenda (43:30.307)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (43:35.255)

Mm.

Brenda (43:38.298)

Well, maybe, I know we're kind of winding down our time, but maybe just in light of that, how much you encourage, maybe we have somebody in that young adult category listening today and they're struggling with suicidal thoughts and the meaning and purpose of life. How, what, where would you give to them? How could you encourage them?

Andrew Dealy (43:57.988)

Yeah, again, scripture defines every individual human being as indispensable in the body of Christ, uniquely made and handcrafted by God for this particular moment, this particular time, and this particular culture by God's grace that every individual we bump into has inherently more dignity and meaning than they could possibly comprehend. So a lot of the meaninglessness in our society is I believe settling for entertainment and distraction instead of the real relationships and medians of life.

But if we lean into scripture, which is where I direct, you know, all of us to continue to look, we find that God has endued us again with dignity and purpose. And then within the body of Christ, gifts, that Ephesians 4 is going to say, the body only grows when every part is using its gift for the benefit of one another. Meaning this, when one part of the body, one part of the body of the local congregation is not functioning and using their gifts to bless others, then the body is not growing as it should. There's no dispensable part.

And that's where, again, I think we all find meaning. I get concerned with church and ministry that we've kind of professionalized it. We've made it, you know, the 20% who do the majority of the work, and they cannot be farther from how scripture describes the way that believers are meant to grow together. For those struggling with suicidalization, please share with somebody. Share with friends, share with family members, seek help. I've struggled suicidal.

Brenda (45:03.948)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (45:18.872)

Ideation in my own life and it comes and goes in seasons. It is I agree with Paul It feels way better to depart and to be perhaps humorous about it for sure every time I get food poisoning and suicidal Immediately that would end the unending suffering of that physiological reality I don't know that I've ever prayed more that the Lord would just take me then and there and believe my kids will be just Fine because I want the suffering to end and so in a similar way these things these moments of severe pain

Brenda (45:22.661)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (45:48.348)

They pass, they change, they adapt. And then in many ways, those moments of pain and severe affliction become the things that give us more meaning in life. They don't get thrown away. They actually start to reshape and restructure the way we understand reality. And at a minimum, they lead us to the greater anticipation of the wonder of what eternity will be. When every tear is wiped away and when pain and suffering are no more, food poisoning will be no more, praise the Lord. And we get to live as we feel like we ought to be able to live now.

Alex (46:12.666)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Dealy (46:17.972)

which to me is still one of the greatest apologetics for why I believe scripture is so true. This longing we have within us that we shouldn't have to suffer this way. Where does that come from? In the history of mankind, there's never been, apart from Justice 1 and 2, a society without injustice, suffering, pain, hardship, horrible things. And yet we cannot shake in our interior self this echo of Eden that demands I should not have to suffer this way.

Now we know Genesis three, we know why we're here, we know the thorns and thistles and all of that. And so God indues all of that again with meaning. But the longing now is, oh, that we'd get to the conclusion well, that the day is coming when it will be done. And so there's this trouble with Suicide Ideation right now. It may be persistent dogging you the rest of your life. It may be a second Corinthians 12, thorn in the flesh that is gonna teach you to be utterly dependent on Christ in all seasons of life. But do know there does come an end to that.

That in eternity, that's no longer going to exist. The problems of this life and our difficulties will come to a close. They're all time stamped. Now can we have faith in the body of believers to endure while it's difficult? My hope is that we can.

Brenda (47:28.734)

Yeah, and to know that.

You don't have to walk it alone. You do not have to walk it alone. You know, I think this just to your point, we've made so much of counseling, put it in the professional realm and that's great. We're, we happen to be professional counselors ourselves and that's great. But you know, there's the counseling need is one to one, right? Like for every person you need a counselor and that's why the Lord has given us His Word, His Spirit and given us the body of Christ. And hopefully

Andrew Dealy (47:32.712)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (48:01.448)

people like you, you have such a passion, I know Andrew, for same passion we share of just equipping, you know, the lay counselor, the person in the pew, just to know how to show up and be present, how to listen, how to ask a few key questions, how to take somebody by the hand and lead them to gospel hope, to the person and work of Jesus and the hope we find in him. And when that happens...

amazing things, amazing things happen when we enter in and allow God to use us and partner with him for, you know, kingdom work and really helping people where they're suffering. And it doesn't have to be in this realm of like unless you've been to school for four years and you have all the, there is a point and we're talking about this in the series, there's a point we need to know, we need to call in other people, we need to call in professionals. And we get that because there

Brenda (48:56.048)

I have any area of my life, there are just times I'm looking for a specialist and not the generalist. But most of the areas in my life, I'm just going to the generalist. I'm just going to the general grocery store, the general doctor, the general shoe store, whatever it is. And every once in a while, I'm looking for or needing somebody who specializes in that. So I just want to thank you so much for coming on. Alex, was there anything I don't want to cut us off if you had one last question?

Andrew Dealy (49:07.674)

Thank you.

Alex (49:23.166)

I think all my other questions will go down many other rabbit trails.

Brenda (49:26.19)

I'm sorry.

Andrew Dealy (49:28.677)

Hmm.

Brenda (49:29.167)

I know. So, Andrew, I think we would love to have you back on again. I know marriage is another topic that you really enjoy speaking about as well. And it's just really been a joy to hear from you. I really believe this podcast is going to give so much hope and help and encouragement to the struggler, but also to some to our listeners who are walking with just other people in general that are hurting. Pain is inevitable, but the hope in Jesus is real. And this is what the community of Christ is for.

Andrew Dealy (49:43.179)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (49:56.92)

that we never have to walk alone. So thank you so much for coming and being our guest today. We really appreciate you.

Andrew Dealy (50:02.244)

Yeah, glad to be here. It was a blessing.

Alex (50:02.426)

Thank you, Andrew.