Season 6 Episode 3: Chris Torchia
Alex (00:05.293)
Well, Brenda, we're in our help series where we're talking through special issues.
that people may be struggling with personally, but also walking with others who are struggling. And today certainly is a difficult topic. And it's one that I hope our listeners will give us some grace on because we're learning as we go. And we may fumble around with our words or our understanding or definitions of things. And so we have a guest here who's near and dear to my heart because he is my stepbrother, Chris Torsha.
Brenda (00:25.902)
true.
Chris (00:35.346)
Yeah.
Alex (00:39.525)
And so I think this first time we've had a family member on, which is kind of fun.
Chris (00:45.488)
Wow.
Alex (00:45.497)
But Chris has an undergraduate degree from Lancaster Bible College and then a biblical counseling master's degree from Westminster Seminary and he's a licensed professional counselor in Pennsylvania and currently he's on staff at Calvary Church in their counseling ministry but he has previously served for eight years as the director of parents and family ministry and on the men's ministry staff at Harvest USA. The other fun thing about Chris is that he led a break dancing and internet
Chris (01:11.44)
Another fun thing about Chris is that he led a break dancing, an international break dancing ministry for 10 years and they did a lot of outreach, teaching and mentoring. But in our family history, he claimed the fame that he is married to Yana and he has two beautiful boys who keep everybody moving and so we're excited to have you today Chris. That's right, thank you very much.
Alex (01:16.091)
breakdancing ministry for 10 years and they did a lot of outreach, teaching and mentoring youth, but in our family his true claim to fame is that he is married to Yana and he has two beautiful boys who keep everybody moving and so we're excited to have you today Chris.
Brenda (01:39.766)
Listen, before we move on, I just want to know, can we find some videos for the break dance? Because I think we definitely need to air some of those. That'd be awesome. That's great. That's awesome.
Chris (01:47.09)
Yeah, I'll be sure to send them to you. Yeah, I still got it too. Don't let him bully you. If you ask him, he'll do it right now. I have to. Come to the territory.
Alex (01:50.32)
Don't let him fool you. If you ask him, he'll do it right now. He'll just clear the door. I'm going to go ahead and do it.
Alex (01:59.937)
That's right.
Chris (02:02.124)
but it is international because that's how I met my wife in the Dominican Republic. So, there you go.
Brenda (02:06.326)
Oh, that's great.
Alex (02:08.455)
Yep, yep. So Chris, we've started each of these podcasts asking our guests to just share with us what's your own personal story that led you to work with sexual strugglers and to work with families of those who are struggling with gender and sexuality.
Chris (02:27.764)
Yeah, sorry you cut out a little bit there. I heard the back end of your question but um so just to clarify you wanted me to share a little bit of what led me into the ministry Okay, okay
Alex (02:38.005)
Let me just, we'll just ask it again and we'll cut that. Mm-hmm.
Brenda (02:40.518)
Yeah, yeah, for some reason you've gone out a few times, Alex. So we'll see if you stay in.
Alex (02:46.157)
Do you know that in every podcast we've done today for when it's getting to that 99% upload on there, it cuts out for me, for y'all, but today I just happen to be talking. So it shouldn't do it again. I hope.
Brenda (02:58.798)
There she goes again.
Chris (03:00.424)
Yeah.
Brenda (03:02.418)
So Chris, one thing is, is the way Riverside records, it'll actually pick her up even if we can't hear her. So if we can track with her, we'll carry on. But if we, but if, but if like, I don't know where you went, then we'll just say stop and then Malia will mark it and they'll edit it.
Alex (03:03.751)
Oh.
Chris (03:09.605)
interesting yeah
Alex (03:11.179)
Yeah.
Chris (03:15.448)
sir okay great
Alex (03:20.733)
Okay, so in each podcast we've been asking our guests to share with us their personal story of what led them to work with their topic. And so Chris, we just would love for you to share what brought you into this work with sexual strugglers and with families of children who are struggling with gender and sexuality.
Chris (03:42.868)
Yeah, well I got hired for Harvest USA right after I graduated seminary at Westminster. And I went for counseling, got a master's degree in counseling and I was doing an internship with CCF. So at that time, you know, a lot of my life journey has been kind of letting life happen to me and sort of just finding the next step that the Lord's leading me.
And that was my experience going into the counseling field too. I just really wasn't certain what I wanted to do. I had an undergrad in Bible and intercultural studies. I was teaching break dancing at the time, mentoring a lot of youth. So I found my gifts more so in like the discipleship relationship kind of thing. And that led me to, Alex, you know this very well because I was in conversation with you about new aesthetic counseling and other things. Led me to Westminster for the counseling degree.
found counseling to be where I really felt the Lord's calling. After my counseling internship with CCF, that's when I was kind of looking real practically for career opportunities. And that's when I went to a seminar by Harvest USA. And Harvest USA just deals with strictly sexual and gender kind of issues. But more specifically, they are
helping Christians in the church that are wrestling with their sexuality. And at that time they were doing a seminar for a church for men's ministry and I had heard about everything Harvest was doing and the support groups they had for men. And that really intrigued me because I knew I wanted to do a lot with men in counseling. And of course sexual issues is a big part of ministry with counseling men and so.
I thought this could be a good, really practically speaking, it was a really good career move for me because it involved writing blogs, teaching, doing direct work individually and in groups. So it was actually more, I was interested in the topic, but I was more so interested in just getting career experience, so I kind of signed up for Harvest, started in the men's ministry, and at that time, the parents group, this was maybe 10 years ago, 11 years ago, and the parents group that we had was for parents who had children that identified
Chris (06:05.34)
as gay primarily because transgender really wasn't as prominent. And so we had a support group for a small, maybe like 10, 15 parents once a month for parents that had gay-identified children. And at that time they needed some help, like maybe a year or so into my work with Harvest, they needed some help leading that group. And I was single with no kids. And so I guess that's what qualified me to jump into the parents group. I was just willing and an able body.
So I went in with a humble posture, just trying to really learn from parents' experiences and really found an affinity there and just started to lead the parents' group. And eventually, especially as time went on and these issues became more prominent in our culture, or more front and center, I'll say, that's when the parents' ministry really started blowing up. And really around the same time, Bruce Jenner came out on Vanity Fair Magazine is when a lot of these other gender identities and other things started springing up.
it certainly was reflected in a lot of the ways that Christian families were dealing with these issues with their kids. So that's when we decided to start a separate program for parents, and it was a logical fit for me to be the director at that point. So I kind of stumbled into that role. I had a heart to work with men, but the parents ministry was just there, and I was open and learned, and it ended up being a very timely experience for me as I've kind of grown with the cultural changes that took place.
Brenda (07:35.126)
Well, I'm thankful that the Lord led you into this. And one of the things that we know that you've done is written some material, Shattered Dreams, New Hope, First Aid for Parents whose Son or Daughter has embraced an LGBTQ plus identity. And so this is a timely conversation. I know for Alex and I both in our sphere of influence and in our counseling are encountering more and more parents who are coming with incredibly broken hearts, very grieved.
Brenda (08:05.32)
is that they feel very out of place. On one hand the world is condoning and even some churches are condoning this idea of exploring your gender identity and choosing it for yourself and then the other side they're also struggling with feeling very condemned in churches and in Christian circles not knowing where they fit in. I'd love for you maybe first just to speak to some of the grief and the impact that you're seeing that this issue
has even just on parents as you're working with them.
Chris (08:40.232)
Yeah, absolutely, and that's certainly a universal experience of many or all Christian parents that I've ministered to, to some degree or another, is a great deal of grief and loss when their child discloses or they find out their child is identifying as LGBTQ. And I think that's due to a number of reasons, but I often say that this issue does not discriminate what kind of family it hits.
Typically, a lot of Christian parents haven't really spent a lot of time really thinking about sexual and gender issues. Maybe they hear it in our culture and it's a little farther removed. But when it hits this close to home, now they're just kind of shell shocked and shook because oftentimes they come from, they strive to raise their kids in the church or have them really involved in.
and youth group and really involved in the community. They oftentimes homeschool or just make sure that their child really is set up to get a Christian education and Christian upbringing. And a lot of parents, maybe not as much these days, but for the most part, a lot of parents are pretty shocked because they had no idea their child was struggling to the extent that they've been struggling. And, slash, or.
have been as well researched as they are about these issues and have come to conclude certain things about themselves regarding their sexuality or gender already. And the parents are just learning of this for the first time and the child's way ahead in their processing. So that's often, I know it's not, you know, the case for every family, but oftentimes, the grief comes as a sudden loss or sudden impact that way because their child just seems like a completely different person.
Alex (10:09.056)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (10:33.604)
than what they've known of their child prior to that disclosure. And so it can come with a lot of shock and a lot of just confusion of who is my child. Everything I known them to be, it seems like they're not that. And even if their way they're perceiving their child isn't fully 100% true, they might take it as everything I've known about my child is up for question. And
really was their faith at all genuine, was everything that they were telling me and everything I saw in them a lie. And so it can be pretty devastating. And in addition to that, unfortunately, there is a lot of wrongful misconceptions about homosexuality and these kind of issues that come into a parent's experience of grief in that moment because a lot of times it's associated with, my child is just too far gone, has walked away from the Lord.
may never come back. And again, that's natural to hit for a parent, but there's some misconceptions in there that I think compound the devastating impact initially for parents. But they do genuinely experience a lot of grief. There's a lot of losses, a loss of what they thought their child was, a lot of loss as the title of that curriculum shows, shattered dreams, new hope. This idea that the dreams and hopes I've had for my child
all the worldly good things that can come of my child's life are now maybe never going to be realized. These kind of things that are just devastating for a parent to process all at once.
Brenda (12:16.846)
That's good, Chris.
Alex (12:21.689)
Chris, at the time where a family either discovers or a child discloses, I'm trying to anticipate that there are families who are listening who could find themselves in this situation in the future, not so much people who have already found out, but what are just some things that you can share with us that might help prepare parents if they're going to hear something like this?
Chris (12:49.716)
Yeah, well, the first is, you know, to, I think it is wise to, you know, kind of read the, where the cultural landscape is right now and not see it as too far-fetched for your child to be playing with this idea or entertaining thoughts of maybe, maybe I would have an alternative sexual gender identity.
Alex (13:11.562)
Right?
Chris (13:18.964)
or especially having friends that they would really have compassion on and affirm. And even if their child's not identifying this way, oftentimes parents are shocked that their child is adopting different biblical views or different views in general, worldviews on these issues. So I think just to not be naive with the culture we're living in and one of the best ways you can prepare, so to speak, or not be caught off guard is to...
Brenda (13:30.798)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (13:44.9)
for one, start to engage with things in our culture, start to learn more of why LGBT identity is so appealing to young people today. Like, what are some individual stories who have wrestled with their sexuality or gender, or who are identifying this way, who have come from a long history, a place of a lot of pain and confusion. And just to learn more stories and realize that we're
We live in kind of a post-Christian era where gender and sexual identities are looked at as an appealing and attractive thing. And it's often a place that people can see, I can belong here, I can be accepted here. And it's actually looked at as a very good thing in a lot of young people's eyes, so not be naive to that. And I think another way to prepare yourself is to get to know your child in these areas. See...
Right, not wait till you hear something that you're afraid to hear, but start to engage in conversations now with your child. How are they engaging their friends in these conversations? What do they think of things that they're seeing in the media and things that you know your child is exposed to? How are they processing that? How are they engaging with friends that might adopt a different gender or sexual identity? And you can really gain a lot from that. But if this would ever come your way and if you would ever hear that, you know.
that news that your child is wrestling in these ways or have come to embrace an LGBT identity, I think simply the best thing you can do is just to love on them, you know, and not react in ways of anger or, you know, reprimanding the child. Usually in the same way it's devastating to hear this for a Christian parent, it's incredibly challenging for a child to come to the place where they can finally disclose this.
to their Christian parents. And that's for a number of reasons I can get into maybe later. But often a child is really afraid of how their parents might respond to them. So to affirm that this took great courage to disclose to you as parents, and to really affirm your love for them is the best thing you can do. Oftentimes parents in a knee-jerk reaction just feel their need to be a gatekeeper of truth in that moment and to just make it
Chris (16:07.832)
evidently clear that this is not what God wants for you. And just try to exhaust their resources and trying to get their help, their kid, their child help in any way they can to really see a biblical view of this and get the help they need. There's a place for that, but in this moment, if your child first comes out to you in this way, I think it's mostly a place for affirming your love for them, affirming the courage it might have took to share this, and really having a heart that wants to explore what this means for them. If they say,
I think I'm gay. What does that mean for them? Are they really struggling with their sexuality or have they concluded this about their identity? Language is important here. We wanna be curious about our kids and what they really mean by what they're saying and really know where they're at in this journey. And especially if this would be something that they'd be willing to invite you in to help them walk alongside them through.
Brenda (17:01.334)
Gosh, Chris. Yeah, as you're talking, I just feel like my heart is cheering. I'm like, this is such good counsel. It is so, so rich. You said one of the significant factors is belonging, which is so good to hear that belonging and acceptance and knowing your child's heart. I'm wondering what other factors you might say play into this.
Chris (17:22.528)
in terms of why a child would embrace. Yeah. You know, I do, I personally believe that belonging and acceptance is the number one factor, especially as we've seen in recent years, more of that, you know, rapid onset gender dysphoria, or, you know, is a term people use where this, you know, and that's a controversial term, but this idea that like, individuals that, especially seeing in young women,
Brenda (17:24.462)
Correct. Yeah.
Chris (17:51.032)
that don't really show any signs of gender dysphoria. You know, just because of the social contagion with friends, just start embracing an LGBT identity just because their friends are doing it. You know, and again, this is a controversial subject and anything you say can have holes poked in it, but it's certainly without question that nowadays, you don't have to see a lot of things that we naturally look for in.
in people that might, you might say, yeah, I could see why this person identifies as gay or why this person, you know, this male that is generally typically more feminine or resonates more with women, like why they would embrace a transgender identity. You don't see that as much anymore. And I think that's just due to how, how this is just seen among young people today as a kind of a badge of honor, like something cool, something that makes me uniquely who I am. And so it's in a,
an appeal for people that might just struggle socially or just feel like I don't have my tribe, I don't have the place where I feel like I belong or am accepted. And so it's a real alluring thing to kind of say I can be different and accepted here and be loved. That's what awaits me. That's what seems like is the promise with being part of the LGBT community. And it's a cool factor. And I see that among young people a lot too.
struggling with mental health issues, if someone's suicidal or has a certain mental health diagnosis, it's more, it's more, the stigma around it has changed, you know, it's more like this is what makes me uniquely me. And it's more celebrated and it's more a way of bonding with peers. So I think, I think that's the biggest factor that I've seen among why, for as far as why a young person would want to identify this way, or they legitimately are just struggling and the church has no answers. The church doesn't want to talk about it.
And really the only place they feel safe to be able to wrestle with who they are is with people that are talking openly about this. And that's often not Christian circles. And if they are, it's more a narrow view of you need to abstain from this or you need to live according to God's design. But there's no real space for wrestling. You know, anyway, I could get off on that.
Brenda (20:09.1)
Mm-hmm. Oh, that's so good. Everything you said is just so good.
Okay.
Alex (20:42.142)
Okay.
Brenda (21:29.706)
It was great. Yeah. I mean, such good information.
Alex (21:29.737)
No, I would write, no, you say everything you need to say because what you're saying is really good. Okay, I think I'm ready.
Brenda (21:36.578)
Alright. Okay.
Alex (21:39.221)
So when I'm hearing you both talk the last few minutes, I'm just putting these things together of a child really searching for a place of belonging, and then a parent being shocked by unexpected news, and just how it's going to take the parent to have a real grounding in the gospel.
Chris (21:51.994)
Mm.
Alex (21:58.825)
I mean this vertical grounding in the gospel. And then also just a real awareness and maybe reckoning with their own sexuality so they can hold that space for a child to have discussions about, like I'm just picturing if I don't have a good reckoning with my own sexuality, I can't create a space for my child to have a discussion about their sexuality.
Chris (22:29.076)
Yeah, no, I think what you're saying is very true and that is needed. I think that the challenge of this is, it's messy, you know, and everything hits out all at once typically for parents. And so I don't, I'm cautious to move parents along too quickly, you know, because you do have to kind of hold all these things together. They legitimately are grieving.
Brenda (22:42.046)
Mm-hmm
Chris (22:56.944)
and there is a sense of loss and it's something happening to them. You know, and so usually that takes first front and center initially. It's hard to even if they can understand, okay, probably this is what lies ahead in terms of what I'm required to do now for my child. Typically, it takes some time for a parent to get there unless they're unusually rooted in the gospel already to a degree or they've been through hard things before where
where they are just able to weather that storm a little better. But more often than not, this is earth-shattering for parents. And they will respond poorly, or they will just be overwhelmed by a lot of grief and not be able to get beyond the emotion. But yes, that is where we eventually went ahead with parents, is really to help them really reframe their experiences through the lens of the gospel. And that ain't good.
that a very important key in that is helping them see the reality of their own brokenness so they know they're more alike to their child than different. You know, if they can see themselves through the lens of the gospel and see that this issue is no different than their own brokenness, no need for Christ. There's uniqueness to it, but there's a commonality, there's a common denominator there.
Brenda (24:05.751)
Yes.
Alex (24:06.289)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (24:19.956)
That's the biggest key to be able to genuinely and authentically move towards your child in a way that's loving. Because otherwise it will just be either fabricated or disingenuous or out of a motive of just trying to change your child. And they're going to pick up on that fear. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
Brenda (24:34.478)
Fear, fear, so much fear, and shame being another motivating factor. And as you were talking about just kind of this initial, and I think it's so helpful, first of all, for us to understand that the...
Alex (24:37.215)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (24:48.066)
The understandable response is the grief. And then secondly, to understand that it's the issue of belonging, if we can really look at the heart of the child and what the child is desiring. And so that's a good desire, right? Wanting to belong and be accepted, but then how are they given expression and the cultural influences that are there that are really coming against us. I love what you said also, Chris, about kids want to talk about these things and the world's willing to talk about it. And if the church isn't willing to have good discussions and parents aren't willing to have good discussions,
influence that we want to have in the culture and in our children's lives. But I think beyond that initial, you know, I sat with a lady not too long ago whose son is transitioning and I mean this is a godly woman and she's just crying and she feels like her heart is being divided and ripped in two as she tries to figure out how am I going to love God and love my child. Because now there's all of these issues that are coming up. You have to call me by my new name. You have to call me by this new gender.
Chris (25:23.716)
Thank you.
Chris (25:42.013)
because now there's all of these issues that are coming.
Brenda (25:48.48)
Alex and I were talking about things when we get into places like, you know, going to weddings. I have another friend whose daughter's getting married and to another girl. And, you know, holidays, hosting a child's partner, all those things that come. How are you guiding parents and what does that look like?
Chris (26:10.188)
Yeah, that's definitely, that's a big question. And the details do, the particulars do matter for sure. But I think it is, you know, just to underscore that tension again, it is that tension of what, that question of what does it look like to remain faithful to God, to hold firm to what scripture teaches, to not compromise on my convictions, but yet move towards my child in a loving way. And in that...
Brenda (26:14.142)
Yeah, because there's a lot of a lot in that a lot of different particulars.
Chris (26:39.628)
that is attention, that if you're doing things right, it'll always be there, you know? And so I think just the reality that it is messy and there will be attention there is something that just needs to be understood. And it's, a lot of times people want to look for the blueprint, want to look for like, what's the way to go here? Like, map it out for me and it's gonna be messy. And I think in some ways,
Brenda (26:58.542)
Hmm.
Chris (27:07.48)
That's okay because it does cause parents to be dependent on the Lord for wisdom in navigating this. But there are some underlying principles that can be helpful in navigating all this. And again, there's a lot of particulars there that should get into specifically, you know, but in general, a lot of times, the guiding principles I encourage parents to do is to, first of all,
know what they believe. So I'm sorry if I'm diverting off away from your question, but I'll say that I think it's important as this hits parents, you know, the initial shock wears off and dealing with the emotion and grief is always going to be necessary. But it's important to then take a step of saying, okay, I need to learn more about these things. You know, I need to see more about what God's Word says about this. I need to see, I need to learn more. I need to study. I need to get my theological categories in order.
Brenda (27:40.846)
That was good.
Chris (28:06.316)
regarding sexual and gender issues and just really understand what does Scripture really speak about these things and especially doing that in the context of realizing our condition before the Lord. Not just kind of like what does the Bible say about sexuality as in the do's and don'ts but really see what does the Bible say about our condition as sexually broken individuals, as broken individuals who have a propensity to wrestle with.
sexuality and gender and who all walk outside of God's design. And to really kind of, I'll just leave it there, to pursue a theological understanding of these issues. Secondly, I need to understand my child, you know. I need to really understand the complexity of their experience with this and to really learn about their experience, to learn about how they're viewing themselves on a deeper, deeper level.
Chris (29:06.433)
And I think that that's needed for parents. I'm trying to come back to your original question. Can you repeat the original question just in terms of?
Brenda (29:12.138)
Yeah, well, I think the guiding principles are great because I almost...
Chris (29:15.427)
Yeah.
Brenda (29:15.97)
feel like in some ways, if you have a theological position and you understand your child and you begin to understand what the real heart goals are, then it begins to direct those individual situations. Yeah, and that was kind of like, because the tension is always in the situation that's facing you where you have a crisis of what does it look like to love God well and remain faithful to him, but also, and I know in one case where I was counseling a mom whose child was struggling in this area, they basically said that, you know,
Chris (29:20.361)
Okay.
Chris (29:24.684)
Yes, that's where I was going with that, yeah.
Chris (29:33.875)
Sure.
Brenda (29:46.464)
to not go through with the transition that they would kill themselves. Like this can be life and death. So now your child is telling you, like if you don't, right, or if you don't call me these names, I'm going to cut off a relationship with you. Like these are life-altering death statements either to the relationship or even to the individual. And so it's easy for people on the outside to say, well, of course you shouldn't call them by that, or of course you shouldn't do this.
Chris (29:52.516)
Yeah.
Chris (29:56.144)
Quite literally.
Chris (30:14.992)
Sure.
Alex (30:15.021)
Hmm.
Brenda (30:15.924)
different when it's your child and the stakes are this high.
Chris (30:18.54)
Yeah, and that's absolutely, and I can give one example that brings that home, but that's the important, that's where I was going to with knowing your child's heart is really, because knowing something about the underlying current, you know, struggles that they have or, or ways that they're believing and viewing themselves does inform your action steps. You know, some, some might need, you know, it's kind of like that first Thessalonians five picture of, you know, Emanash Iyan really helped the week.
you know, curse the faint hearted. I've got that all backwards, but it's all there. You know, just this idea that it's not one size fits all. You know, when it really comes close to home and it's an individual you're talking about loving, you know, that context matters. But one situation that I'm just recalling, you know, a woman had, a mom had a daughter that was 14 and she's already had two suicide attempts.
Brenda (30:51.134)
Yeah, yeah, we got you.
Alex (30:51.833)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (31:11.916)
And she said, if you know, just that the classic example of like, if you don't start using my pronouns, I'm going to take my life. Okay. When, when you kind of see the history of her daughter's mental illness and struggles there and suicidality, you know, you have to take that threat seriously. Some will be able to just dismiss that and say, put a stake in the ground. You're not wavering, but considering where your child's at, you know, and knowing what this means for them, I think it does cause you to wrestle with. Maybe I'm.
I'm going to reserve judgment immediately on the right and wrongness of pronouns and really wrestle with this to say, is there a way? Is there any space for me to be biblically obedient to the Lord and use the pronouns that my child is asking me to use? And I would say in some situations, that is appropriate. And usually when people have a stance on these issues, it's divorced from the context of real life situations.
Brenda (32:05.199)
Right, right. Where it's easy to be black and white.
Alex (32:05.375)
Yes.
Chris (32:08.66)
Yeah, absolutely. And it becomes different.
Alex (32:10.293)
Yeah, so I find most people when they're sitting in my office.
It's almost like this immense relief for me to just give them permission to love their child. And that makes me so sad. But it feels like they're getting so much input about taking a stand and drawing lines and all these things so that when I encourage them the way you're saying, Chris, of like, what's your child's struggle and how can you meet them in it? It's just like, there's like, am I allowed to do that?
Chris (32:26.829)
Yeah.
Chris (32:46.84)
Yeah, exactly. It is heartbreaking, but you bring a really good point because sometimes you have to just give that, you know, if you're walking alongside somebody, it's important to kind of, not that you're giving them permission, but you're introducing that. You are giving them permission to tell themselves, like, I can, I do have the freedom to move into this messy territory and love my child. You know, and I think there's a comforting,
Alex (32:47.251)
breaks my heart. Mm-hmm.
Chris (33:15.916)
reality that God knows our hearts. He knows these issues are messy. And even if we make a misstep, you know, it's all God accounts for that. You know, we don't have to... Sometimes we feel like we have to lead with, you know, almost like God is looking at me to make sure I make all the right decisions waiting for me, waiting to point his finger, but I think he knows our frame. He remembers how confusing we've confused the place we're at and the...
Brenda (33:24.909)
Yeah.
Chris (33:45.08)
the messy territory that we're in. Yeah.
Brenda (33:47.93)
It just reminds me, I always tell my children that I'm still growing up as a parent, you know, and so there's room for growth because anytime your child is faced with some sort of...
Chris (33:53.025)
Yeah.
Brenda (33:58.798)
you know, issue in their life or life-dominating issue that radically alters their life in your relationship and has potential danger, it's a walk of faith for the parents to know how God wants them to go and they are going to make missteps. I mean, that's just part of the process. Nobody who's facing this is going to walk this out perfectly because if it's your first time, it's your first time and the Lord is really going to push you back in your desperation to Him. And I like what you said, it's just messy and we don't like messy.
Chris (34:12.761)
Mm.
Chris (34:20.868)
Hmm
Brenda (34:29.072)
And for those of us who are walking alongside, you know, again, it's a lot easier to deal with the generalities and the black and whites and our dogmas than it is to get down really messy and wrestle with people. And it is in the wrestling because this is not, this is, this is so, so hard. And if you've walked with somebody who's in the midst of this, you know, the pain, the pain that the parent is going through and so often the pain and anguish
Chris (34:58.372)
Mm.
Brenda (34:58.592)
is wrestling with their identity and sexuality is going through can be missed when we just make this about who's right and who's wrong.
Alex (35:05.471)
Yeah.
Chris (35:06.029)
Absolutely.
Alex (35:09.476)
I remember having a short period of time, two, three week period.
where I was talking to two different people struggling with this issue of attending a wedding. And it was so interesting for me and so eye-opening for me because in one situation, both people were on their faces before the Lord asking him what he would have them do. And in one situation, the woman, it was a sibling, and she decided that she
Chris (35:27.56)
is in one situation, both people were on their faces before the Lord.
Alex (35:44.387)
would go to the reception and not the ceremony because she couldn't bless the covenant but she wanted to engage in the family part of the event and in the other situation they went to the ceremony and not the reception because she felt like she couldn't celebrate but she wanted to be part of the
Chris (35:44.4)
that she would go to the reception and not the ceremony. She couldn't bless the covenant, but she wanted to engage in the family part of the event. And in the other situation, they went to the ceremony and reception because she felt like she couldn't celebrate, but she wanted to be part of the...
Alex (36:10.489)
milestone event in her family member's lives. And when I sat with both of them, I couldn't argue with either one of them. I felt like they had both arrived at the conclusion that the Lord had taken them to, and they actually made completely different choices. And it was, I don't know what they learned. I learned so much about the fact that like...
Chris (36:11.168)
milestone event in her family's lives. And when I sat with both of them, I couldn't argue with either one of them.
Chris (36:23.696)
taken them to and they actually make completely different choices. And it was, I don't know what they learned. I learned so much. I learned the fact that, you know what? God is going to take different families to different places. And I, like, that is the Holy Spirit and them leading in God. Absolutely.
Alex (36:29.545)
You know what? God is gonna take different families to different places. And I, like, that is the Holy Spirit in them leading and guiding them. And I can just affirm the process that they're going through and not have to prescribe, this is the right way to handle this.
Chris (36:49.868)
100%. Yeah, I think that's so good. I've had a similar situation where a husband decided to go to his daughter's wedding to her partner and the mother decided to stay back. And similar, I don't need to get into that, but very similar conclusion of just, I've learned so much for that and I can never decide for a person. And of course you're not like trying to throw out the truth of Scripture and how we have to kind of consider.
Brenda (37:15.168)
Right.
Chris (37:18.976)
and search out what God's desire and standard is for us. But at the same time, in those messy situations, I would just be very, very cautious to make a prescription of what someone is to do when there's a lot of gray there.
Alex (37:32.449)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (37:35.558)
I think the hard part is, any time we support an individual, it feels like we're condoning the actual activity or the event. And I think that...
Chris (37:45.998)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (37:51.786)
I mean to me that's where a lot of the wrestling comes in is how do I love this person well but how do I hold on to my faith and the truth and sometimes it might just be that we've told a person where we stand and you know we're un, we, we
Chris (38:03.512)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (38:06.998)
boldly and clearly, but then we have to start making decisions about is there an opportunity to continue to engage with this person for the sake of the gospel. And Chris, to me, one of the hardest things I think is if somebody is struggling and they do not have a Christian profession of faith, that to me feels pretty easy. I think what becomes more difficult is when somebody does make a profession of faith and
Chris (38:27.78)
Hmm. Eh. Hmm.
Brenda (38:36.972)
church. That feels more complicated. Would you agree with that? Do you think there is a harder line there?
Alex (38:40.953)
Hmm.
Chris (38:45.288)
It can be, yeah. There's a lot of relational dynamics that can make these kind of family situations very challenging, but I do think it can be really messy, especially regarding what you're talking about, of what is my role in the life of my child. You know, if they're an unbeliever, it feels a little more black and white for a lot of Christian parents versus professing believer. You know, but also when you really understand some of what is commonly in the
in the underlying beliefs of individuals that are embracing an LGBT identity, whether they're Christian or not, it does kind of put things in perspective. So for instance, a lot of times, in you know, I think one clear underlying core belief about sexuality and gender is that
somewhere in the mix with, I would say, the majority if not all individuals identifying this way is how I feel is the authority that I need to follow. And so I need to look inwardly to see who it is that I am, especially with my sexuality and gender. A lot of times that's the most central.
Brenda (39:48.002)
Hmm.
Chris (40:01.232)
aspect of who I am as a human being, as a person. That's how I most fundamentally identify myself and my sexuality or gender. And I have to find my truth by looking inwardly at what is, what my feelings are and that's most authoritative to me. So, and that applies to believers and unbelievers alike. So, and that's why Christians can really wrestle with their, the feeling of being attracted to the same gender or the feeling of I have an internal sense that I belong
And as a man, I belong.
Even though I'm biologically male, I resonate more with as a female, you know, and this is my internal experience, so therefore that is who I am. I don't know if capturing that is great, but this whole idea that my inner feelings is more authoritative than any objective outward truth of like God's Word or whatever else. And so if you understand that that's what's leading the dance, then you kind of understand your child's deception in that, and it can help you appropriately respond, you know.
That's like, if you're familiar with Carl Truman and his book, Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, he also has a more digestible version of that strange new world. And Carl Truman is a theologian and he's a historian and he talks about, he basically tries to answer that question of how can we come to the point now where someone can just identify as transgender, identify as someone.
someone that is opposite of the gender that they were born with, or their biological sex, and everybody just readily accepts that. How can we get to the point we're at today in the beliefs about sexual or gender identity? And he looks at a lot of different people throughout history that has informed this way of thinking, and essentially bottom line is he gets to the underlying reality of our post-Christian
Chris (41:59.152)
kind of understanding of identity and of how relationships ought to work. His term is the social imaginary, you know. I think it was coined by Charles Taylor as a philosopher, this idea of like, this is just the air we breathe, like a fish in water. It's just the assumptions that we intuitively make about identity, about relationships, about...
culture about where truth can be arrived from. And the social imaginary that we live in today is your truth is your truth and my truth is my truth, the whole postmodern way of thinking. And
what's the greatest good is to not impede on someone else's journey to find their truth, to find their happiness. And in this expressive individualism in the sense that I have to look internally to see who I am and I have to express that and live in congruence with that and to deny that is something wrong. So that might seem far-fetched from the conversation, but if you really look intently into sexual and gender identity, it's very much underlying sexual and gender identity. This is my truth, this is who I am.
Brenda (42:53.762)
Mm.
Chris (43:02.094)
And that also explains a lot of the contention around these issues, where Christian parents are saying, you know, I'm disagree, you know, you're in sin or this is wrong for you. And the child just views themself as, no, this is something good, this is fundamentally good. And what you're saying is wrong is coming against who I am. It's oppressive, it's toxic, and it's hurtful. You're not safe. You're not a safe relationship for me.
Brenda (43:23.586)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (43:28.684)
because I can't freely express who I feel that I am and be received with love and support. So I'm sorry it went off on tangent there, but yeah.
Brenda (43:36.702)
No, that's so good, Chris. I do too.
Alex (43:36.905)
No, I think it's really helpful.
And I think it actually underlies what you're saying, Chris, about how we then interact, because what we're then not saying is, I, the parent, and my sexuality is the authority, and therefore I have to impose that on you. Like, we're not doing that. So when we recognize that we're pointing to a higher authority than we are, we're pointing to God's authority, then I just think that frees us up as parents to be able to love our children well.
Chris (43:54.805)
Yeah.
Alex (44:09.495)
certainly, like we've said before, certainly voicing truth, but not feeling like we are the enforcers of truth, you know, or some positions that we take like that. Because if we're really saying, okay, God's the authority and therefore, you know, He's the judge and even as the judge, He's, He's embarked on this great rescue mission to come and capture our hearts back to Him. Like we
Chris (44:20.307)
Exactly.
Alex (44:39.075)
lot of that to him and then we can take a posture of so what does it look like we've been saying to enter into the messy and it's not my rules I'm trying to enforce but I am trying to most clearly put a loving father on display to my children.
Chris (44:58.156)
Absolutely.
Brenda (44:59.506)
Yeah, and I was thinking too, Alex, as you were talking that in that process, though, sometimes parents will suffer for righteousness sake, right? Like children sometimes are going to draw lines in the sand and parents are going to have convictions. And, um, but I wonder, Chris, if you find if a parent is, uh, at least tries to really discuss the wrestle and the struggle, um, themselves, as opposed to coming down hard line, if that actually moves the dial a little bit for a child
Alex (45:07.001)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (45:29.5)
rebellious or maybe really dug in if they can see like my mom and dad really love me, they're trying to understand, they're wrestling with these things that are hard and maybe they can't come to my wedding but that doesn't mean they don't want to have a relationship with me. Like continuing where a mother and father can live with their conscience and move forward and do it in such a humble way that recognizes the struggle so it softens maybe the child's heart as well toward them.
Chris (45:43.021)
Yeah.
Chris (45:55.42)
I do think that's absolutely the best approach, especially in this age of authenticity, where being true to yourself is so highly valued. If you're not coming across authentic as a parent, and part of that even just acknowledging that you don't have it all together, that you will even make missteps and you won't do this in all the best way.
I think that humble approach and even just an ability to let your child into your own brokenness, your own need for Christ, and I know that has to have wisdom in how you navigate conversations regarding that. But if your child can see you as a real person, that's your best opportunity to gain a platform with them.
And especially if you're holding space for them and saying, like, you don't have to have it all together. I don't know it's, I don't have it all together. And, you know, I just want to walk with you in this. And I want to at least have open and honest conversations, even if we don't see eye to eye on these things. And would you be able to come my way a little as I'm seeking to know you better? You know, I think that's the best approach I found that parents have with their child. And that...
isn't always granted in a relationship, even if the parent wants that and desires that. If you have that kind of access to your child and you're in this situation, praise God for that. Because that's a rare thing if your child would be willing to stay open in relationship with you, knowing that you can't fully accept or agree with the conclusions they're making about their sexuality or gender.
If they know you hold to different values and you disagree with their perspective and they still want an authentic relationship with you, that is amazing because oftentimes parents are really desiring to have that kind of access to their child, which is the very simple fact that they are Christians and they hold to biblical views regardless of how loving and gracious they want to be. Their child just doesn't even give them the opportunity to be known and to really have that kind of relationship with their parents.
Chris (48:09.58)
So it's challenging.
Alex (48:12.477)
So Chris, what is a parent's hope as they're entering into these difficult conversations, making difficult decisions, and feeling pressure maybe from the church or other friends that they're not doing it right? What do you encourage a parent to hold on to in the midst of these issues?
Chris (48:36.264)
I think, of course, the hope is that you don't have to have it all figured out. The hope is living in the presence of a God who takes what is meant for evil and can accomplish good purposes through it. Is a God who redeems lives and redeems these kind of situations. And I'm not trying to say your child will just turn around tomorrow, but got to...
to steal a phrase from my mentor Ed Welsh at one point, God is up to something good in this. And that's essentially the hope. It may not be the way that you wanna write your story or your child's story, but in walking with parents for a lot of years now, I can honestly say that God is up to something good in this situation. And just like any trial that one goes through, God does draw us closer to Himself, makes us appreciate the reality of what Christ has done for us.
makes those things more meaningful as we have to apply these truths to our child, to ourselves, to see our own need for grace as we seek to extend that grace to our child. Our affections for, your affections for Christ will grow and so that is hopeful that you will draw near to God. And this is a new opportunity for many parents to develop a new kind of relationship with their child, one that's more rooted in honesty and authenticity.
oftentimes one that allows your child to develop their own convictions on things, because especially this usually happens in high school, college years, and that's a natural transition for any parent, but it allows you to just have a different kind of relationship and say, okay, maybe I do need to shift, maybe I have to kind of allow my child to have their own opinions and thoughts, and I can have more of a friendship with them. For many parents,
they're surprised at the way their relationship is enriched as a result of this happening in their child's life because they're having more real, authentic conversations that hadn't this happened, they wouldn't have. And actually, relationship can actually be strengthened as a result of this, as the parent's willing to die to self and grow, and if the child really values that relationship. So there's some hope in that. That's not every parent's scenario.
Chris (50:58.9)
And in some situations, this is the first time a child is real about what's internally going on and actually coming forward with that. It's not pleasant to hear, but in many situations, a child is just living a lie, so to speak, in their minds. They can't disclose fully how they're feeling. And it's not pleasant, but finally it's out. And you can actually deal with what is, instead of a false version of what you think it is.
it should be or what it is. So that's a means that the Lord can get a hold of their heart through that as well.
Brenda (51:30.24)
And I'm just thinking.
Brenda (51:34.73)
Yeah, as you were talking, I was just thinking, now you really know how to pray as a parent.
Chris (51:38.296)
Yeah, exactly.
Brenda (51:39.17)
You're praying for all kinds of things, but once you can get into the heart of your child, like you know how to pray, how to fast, how to go before the Lord and really pray for your child, which is going to have to be a work of the Holy Spirit anyhow, because that's true for all of us. It's not just about gender and sexuality. It's about a heart surrender to the Lord and a person knowing that they're a sinner who needs forgiveness and there's a gracious God who is desiring to be in relationship with them. Chris, one last question as we wrap up just for our podcast community.
Brenda (52:09.604)
give information that helps counsel our own hearts where kingdom can come to our own hearts and our own lives but also to be equipped to walk with others for the expansion of the kingdom and particularly our spheres of influence. We like to think that probably most of our listeners are you know just Christians in the church and in neighborhoods and in families who are trying to live for Christ. So you have some maybe some ideas of do's or don'ts for those that are
Chris (52:32.1)
Mm.
Brenda (52:39.124)
that they have a friend whose child is struggling or identifying in this way on the best, some of the best practices maybe to walk with that person.
Chris (52:48.964)
Sure, I think just briefly, some of the things that you really can't go wrong with is that kind of like one, two step of just listening and showing compassion and empathy and reserving judgment. Again, often this doesn't discriminate what family it hits and things can come out pretty raw. And oftentimes when parents come into our support groups at Harvest USA or I lead a group here at Calvary.
You know, typically every parent has experiences where they've tried to put their feelers out, they've tried to disclose this to someone, and they're either met with, you know, why don't you just accept this about your child? Like, what's the grief for? You know, what's the pain? You know, it's good your child's discovering who they are or they're met with. Just tell your child to do X, Y, and Z. You know, just really draw the line here. And those kind of suggestions are just really unhelpful. So the best thing you can do is just hold a space where
A parent can genuinely just share all their emotion and you just be really curious about how this is impacting them. Anticipate some of the grief, the feeling, the losses that they need to walk through and identify and name and give them the ability to grieve those things and put an appropriate label on that, that they are actually grieving, I think is often relieving for parents and the space to actually share things that they're grieving even if they know I need to love my child.
to give them space to grieve those raw things and to also give them space to just share some of their, you know, not put together thoughts about these issues, you know, about the LGBT community, about their child and to reserve judgment of parents. But as you work through that, then I think you can just have a posture of coming alongside a parent and saying, let's learn together. Let's learn more about these things together. And...
and let's pray and seek the Lord together for the next steps with you and your child. And just be in it with them.
Brenda (54:51.046)
Yeah, so good. Chris, this has been an amazing conversation. You touched on even some of, oh, so helpful. And I'm already thinking, we need to have him back because there's some other things that we know that you talk about and work that you do that I think would just be really encouraging to our listeners. But I know even just for me, this has been so helpful in how I can approach and just be better prepared to enter in and walk with people, particularly moms and dads who find themselves.
Chris (54:56.024)
I hope it's been helpful.
Brenda (55:20.92)
understanding of kind of those deep-rooted issues of gender and sexuality issues, kind of demystifying the behavior from the heart and realizing that we're really just the same a lot more than we are different. The struggle just looks different. So yeah, thank you so much for coming on.
Chris (55:21.551)
Hmm.
Alex (55:35.545)
Hmm. Yeah, I think I was thinking while Chris was talking, I was thinking, gosh, what a hard, heavy, heartbreaking subject. And yeah, there's just been real sweetness, Chris, in having you here because I guess you were about 12 when I met you and then...
Chris (55:37.22)
Hmm, absolutely.
Chris (55:51.195)
Hmm.
Alex (56:00.721)
I was just thinking about watching you through your teenage years, sitting in the kitchen bar talking about counseling to come all the way to the day where you're teaching me how to reach families whose children are struggling. That just felt like a little full circle moment there. So there's a real sweetness even in this heavy topic.
Brenda (56:12.214)
Hahaha
Chris (56:22.341)
Wow.
Brenda (56:25.966)
I got one other question really quick Chris. One of the things I wondered is Does Harvest or are you familiar with really solid? place for parents to go one of the things I realized is that the parents that I talked to want to talk to other parents Who are trying to struggle well? And so, you know, there's a few of course in our community that can get together but I wondered if Harvest or somebody else has a Facebook or a zoom or that meets for families to get together and how we would access that
Chris (56:42.234)
Hmm.
Chris (56:51.42)
Yeah, Harvest USA does have virtual groups and they're typically, the way I establish is more in short-term groups and I think they're still doing it that way. But parents, we minister to parents all over the country and just do Zoom groups. So if you contact Harvest USA, harvestusa.org, you'll be able to find that.
Brenda (57:07.734)
great.
Chris (57:13.584)
the website there and just inquire about parents groups. So that would probably be the first, if you're out of state, out of Philadelphia area even too, you know, that's a good place to start.
Brenda (57:17.378)
Perfect.
Brenda (57:24.29)
Perfect, that's great. Well, Chris, thank you so much. We just appreciate your time and your wisdom so much and the experience that you've had. And it's just really been a joy talking with you today. So thank you for coming on.
Chris (57:29.216)
Absolutely.
Chris (57:36.248)
Thank you for having me.