S6 Ep. 2 / Marnie Ferree: Help When Your Spouse Betrays You
Brenda (00:05.219)
Hello Alex!
Alex (00:06.935)
Hello?
Brenda (00:06.997)
We're so excited today because we get to introduce a new guest in our Hope series as we talk about sexual betrayal in marriage. And I need to say that we're not always, you know, excited, of course, about these difficult topics that we're covering, but we are excited to have people join us who have stories of their own and knowledge about the topic, which gives them great wisdom to be able to share with our guests. So we want to introduce
Alex (00:22.135)
Mmm.
Brenda (00:36.931)
licensed marriage and family therapist in Nashville, Tennessee, which is right down the road from me in Chattanooga. She's the founder and director of Bethesda Workshops and that's a faith-based clinical intensive workshop program for sex addicts, their partners, couples, and teens affected by sexual addiction. And Marnie began talking about sexual addiction in women and teenage girls 25 years ago. Honestly Marnie, when few others were discussing it or knew
her book No Stones Women Redeemed from Sexual Addiction was the first to address sexual addiction to women from a Christian perspective and so we're so thankful for her work. She's the author of additional books and clinical articles and peer-reviewed journals and numerous inspirational articles. She's also a licensed marriage and family therapist and certified sex addiction therapist and let me just say that just getting to know her a little bit from a
loves Jesus and knows the healing power that comes through the gospel. And so Marnie, thank you so much for joining us today.
Marnie Ferree (01:44.034)
Thank you so much. I'm really delighted to be with you.
Brenda (01:47.725)
Well, great. Well, we'd love to start off our time together to hear a little bit of your personal testimony that led you to ministering both to sex addicts and those they betray as well. We know that you come to this topic in a very unique situation as being both the betrayer, the betrayer and somebody who's also been betrayed. So can you share with our audience a little bit about your story?
Marnie Ferree (02:10.702)
Sure, thank you. I'm honored to.
Marnie Ferree (02:16.946)
My story is something that of course is unique to me and is not at all unique to so many people who struggle. I grew up in a Christian home, as the daughter of a very, very beloved big deal pastor and Christian educator, man who deeply loved God and a man who also struggled deeply all of his life with sex addiction. With pornography, some of my earliest memories are finding his pornography.
He struggled with inappropriate relationships with other men, including offending behaviors when he was groomed and was sexual with students on his Christian College campus where he was academic Dean in charge of their future. One of those students was also a perpetrator for me. Was sexually abused. He became my father's one of his
his closest dearest friends for life. And he began sexually abusing me when I was five. And that continued when I married the first time when I was 20. And it was couched in such a loving, nurturing relationship that it never ever occurred to me that was sexual abuse. I truly, I thought that...
Alex (03:34.431)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (03:37.286)
I was choosing to be sexual with this man who's 15 years older than I was, who began grooming me when I was five. I had no understanding of that story at all. My story was also complicated by the death of my mother when I was three years old. She, as we're talking about walking with people who had been betrayed, in the 1950s she was deeply betrayed by this very charismatic, hugely big deal.
Alex (03:40.963)
Hmm.
Marnie Ferree (04:06.646)
pastor and had nowhere to turn. So her story is especially heartbreaking to me as I've experienced betrayal in my own life when there's so many more resources and when I think of what her pain must have been like, it just makes my heart ache every single time. Her story is quite complicated that we might get into more on.
Brenda (04:10.053)
Hmm.
Marnie Ferree (04:35.83)
this conversation together. But, so I had attachment breaches, I'd call them clinically, abandonment is another word from earliest, earliest childhood and learned at the hands of this, what today I know is a perpetrator, but who again, I thought was my dearest, best, best person. I was much more available to me than my father. And so it was hugely important to me.
And I learned that sex equals love. I became promiscuous. I just wanted to be chosen. I wanted someone to spend time with me. And I found on this good Christian college campus, there were plenty of college guys whom I began dating when I was a freshman in high school, which is not a good plan, but there were no boundaries. There was no supervision. I was very much left on my own. I found that there were plenty who were willing to, you know,
be nice to me, spend some time with me, hang out with me for a while if I just be sexual with them. And I was real glad to be sexual with them after you've lost your virginity and that culture, the church culture which I grew up in, then you were just completely screwed. And I mean that in every way that word is used. I mean it's like you can't recover from this and so what difference did it make anymore?
Alex (05:55.917)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (05:58.238)
Hehehehe...
Marnie Ferree (06:01.038)
And so looking back, I was a full-blown sex lover and relationship addict probably by the time I was 18 or 19. I didn't understand my story. I thought I was a whore. That's how I viewed myself. And I had such the double life because I was so involved in church and I was already writing and publishing in national magazines as a teenager around Christian and inspirational things. So very complicated. I got married very young, age 20.
I thought that would cure this promiscuity. And we had no skills for relationship, had very, very unrealistic expectations for what that would be like. I was very angry when he couldn't fulfill those expectations, again, which were, basically I wanted him to make me okay with me and to fill up the black hole inside. And of course that's no one else's job. That marriage ended in divorce.
And very quickly I remarried and was married for 40 years. I ultimately returned to acting out. I felt huge emotional abandonment in that marriage relationship when our children were still pretty young from a whole series of stresses that happened to us. And I so wanted my husband to engage with me and he was just a combination of could not. I think there was a good bit of
could not and would not. And I reverted to patterns that I, at that point, was still completely unaware of. I was just talking with a man from church and that became more we're going to lunch, then we have a drink, and before long we're in an affair. And I returned to a pattern of affairs for several years until my behavior caught up with me in the form of cervical cancer.
caused by HPV, a sexually transmitted disease. I was depressed, I was anxious, I was having a panic attacks, and ultimately I know that it was a God prompt because we did not do this in my family. But I picked up the phone and I asked for help. And I called a dear friend and I poured out these secrets. I was so afraid she was gonna shame me or.
Marnie Ferree (08:22.09)
Again, I'm thinking about it, what I expect will be some areas where our conversation will go in a couple of minutes, that she would be uninformed of what she told me, like, you're an affair? Well, stop. Gee, I've never thought of that before, you know, and I don't mean to say this isn't, these aren't helpful suggestions. It's just, I was an addict. And when you're dealing with an addiction, those good, I think certainly appropriate.
spiritual solutions are not going to be enough. But instead she just loved me. She said, I'm so sorry. And I said, what are you sorry for? I got myself into this mess. She said, I'm sorry for your pain. I was 35 years old and no one had ever seen my pain before. They didn't see the pain of the motherless child, the little girl whose daddy wasn't there, nothing.
Alex (09:09.245)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (09:21.49)
And that changed my life. And I entered recovery at age 35, became sober, ultimately began to work in this field. I was a journalist when I entered recovery and wanted to have my writing focus within these areas and went back to school and became a therapist. My husband did not choose to take
any significant steps into recovery, the tiniest little bit of counseling or healing work, just very, very minor. And yet I was so glad to just for the healing in my life and to be sober and to be working in the field and it seemed like it was being very helpful to other people, founded Bethesda workshops, and life continued on for the next.
25, almost 30 years. I became increasingly distraught, it's a big word, but I was at the distance in this relationship. Again, my husband was a good man and kind man, but someone totally, totally emotionally shut down. I can't begin to describe quite the level that I'm talking about. And...
I wrestled with God for that situation for 15 years, just begging, would you fix him? That would have worked for me. Okay, then would you fix me? And God did meet that request more, has continued to move in me, to shape me, to call me closer, closer to God's self. But finally, I was just so distraught. The Gulf was so huge. I was so desperately lonely.
Alex (10:57.347)
Mm-mm.
Marnie Ferree (11:17.982)
And I came to understand as I continued in counseling off and on through all those years, that this huge disconnect, this total lack of any reciprocity, much less emotional, spiritual connection and support and any other kind of connection was replicating all the abandonment and pain and attachment wounds of my childhood. And finally, after again, huge wrestling and decisions, I decided that I needed to separate.
I was literally just dying inside. And I did. I moved very close to the home we'd had together. And I had no plans to divorce. There wasn't a reason to divorce. I wasn't involved with anyone. I just needed to structurally remove myself from continually being in that situation to always be disappointed. I've even just, how was your day? Just anything.
And I lived like that for about a year and felt such relief. So grateful to just be alone with God and my wonderful therapy dog, which I've just pointed to him. He's off camera. You can't see. But he's my best guy ever. And thought I would live the rest of my life in that way. We were very compatible and congenial. We continued to do.
Brenda (12:28.581)
Hehehehehehe
Marnie Ferree (12:44.778)
all kinds of family things. And I was content with that and would have stayed that way the rest of my life I intended. And then I made astonishing discovery. I wasn't looking for it in the story is a story. But the bottom line is that I discovered email evidence, clear, irrefutable evidence that he had been acting out for decades.
And I was shocked. As I've described, I knew there were huge challenges within the relationship, and I never expected that. I actually, I don't mean this unkindly, but I thought he was way too shut down to act out. And what I think I've come to understand is that probably was the only time he ever felt in any way alive, which is heartbreaking for him as well as for me. And I chose to divorce.
Brenda (13:34.917)
Hmm.
Marnie Ferree (13:42.646)
after begging for 25 years for a real relationship, I was not willing to put myself out there in that way with him again. And he was not willing to take any responsibility or express remorse for that behavior. And so now I find myself divorced, few years divorced after a 40 year relationship. This is not where I thought I would be.
It was not where I wanted to be. I wanted a real connected, healthy relationship the way all of us do. And today I really can say I'm grateful. I have, it's a different kind of happily ever after. I'm not partnered. That's not my goal, that I'm going to be happy if I find the right kind of relationship. Though I admit that continues to be a desire of my heart.
but not one that I'm looking for and not one that I'm distressed if it's not fulfilled. I found an even deeper relationship with God, with myself, with an astonishing support system, and with the level of ministry. Bethesda Workshops has worked with partners since the beginning. But now that I have experienced that betrayal, I believe our program is richer and even more.
empathetic for sure for partners. We have others on staff who have experienced betrayal, but now I know that too in a different way. Of course, I grew up in a sexually addicted home. So it was betrayed in that way, but it's vastly different when it's within that significant covenant relationship. So I come today as to these kinds of conversations and to my work as a woman who I consider
still myself to be marvelously redeemed from unbelievable amounts of pain. And I'm grateful for this journey, for every bit of it, for all that God has done and that God continues to do within me, which is always healing, though not always pleasant.
Alex (16:01.399)
Hehehe
Marnie Ferree (16:03.662)
God is allowing me to do continuing through Bethesda workshops, even as I change my role a little bit in the future. So thank you for the invitation to just share what I've been through.
Brenda (16:18.297)
Thank you for sharing that. That's it.
There's so many questions going off in my mind. And I know we want to stay with sexual betrayal for this particular podcast, but there's so much there, Moni. There's so many ways that we could go. And I feel like your story is gonna touch on so many avenues of pain and, you know, misery and heartache for a lot of our listeners. And so I'm thankful for the work that you're doing and that maybe this will spark some people to look further,
Marnie Ferree (16:23.864)
Thank you.
Marnie Ferree (16:28.94)
Yes.
Marnie Ferree (16:36.16)
Yes.
Brenda (16:51.259)
into their own healing journey.
Marnie Ferree (16:53.597)
I hope so.
Alex (16:56.447)
Marnie, I know we want to get into betrayal, but I can't help but pick up on some of the terminology that you're using that may be unfamiliar to people. And one of the things that you said is you are a sex, love, and relationship addict. And I think that might be something different that people haven't heard before.
Marnie Ferree (17:22.411)
Okay, you know, this is my life that I live and breathe. So it's actually a little surprising to me to think, and particularly with the deep level of conversations that y'all have that people might not be familiar with that.
Alex (17:23.447)
Hehehe
Marnie Ferree (17:38.794)
Think about what someone might know about an alcoholic. And of course, there's a continuum. Someone could be misusing or abusing alcohol. It's still very functional. Someone can be in the gutter drunk, and that's real clear. There's a continuum beyond the sin, certainly not discounting the sin of this behavior. Beyond that, however, of being inappropriate in relationships or being at that level of addicted.
Brenda (17:51.042)
Yeah.
Alex (17:51.269)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (17:56.3)
Hmm.
Marnie Ferree (18:08.355)
and I
Alex (18:08.656)
Mm-hmm. I think maybe, I'm sorry, maybe this'll help. I think we all hear sex addiction. I think it's when you add the words love and relationship that it might cause people to go, what does that mean?
Brenda (18:15.802)
Yeah.
Marnie Ferree (18:19.51)
Thank you.
Brenda (18:20.43)
Yeah.
Marnie Ferree (18:22.634)
What is that? Okay, sorry, I didn't I wasn't tracking with you. Yes, a lot of times people will say I'm not a sex addict because I'm not in it for the sex. Well, the reality is none of us are in it for the sex. We're in it for the connection. Now it's a false connection and often it's not a connection at all. But what Satan has done is perverted healthy sexual
Brenda (18:23.12)
Yeah.
Alex (18:26.811)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (18:36.619)
That's it.
Alex (18:43.129)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (18:51.438)
connection and experiences into the best faults substitute for genuine intimacy. So many of us, stereotypically particularly women, but I also find men are more love and relationship addicts. My pattern was deeply connected long-term affairs. Well, that makes perfect sense with my trauma.
Alex (19:15.805)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (19:19.488)
Yes.
Marnie Ferree (19:20.15)
with always looking for someone to be chosen and to be connected with and all of those kinds of things. And I really think that this term sex addiction encompasses all of these different types and the love addict always looking externally for someone else to make me okay with me. This relationship addict having multiple relationships, sometimes simultaneously, sometimes short, sometimes long. They're
all part of that picture. And for many of us, all of that picture gets conflated into kind of one big mess.
Alex (19:58.978)
Well, I think it's a very helpful terminology because I think that it can be hard.
Brenda (19:59.142)
Morning.
Alex (20:06.515)
I don't know if I'm going to say this the right way. We can, we can clean it up, but it can be hard to identify with the idea of being a sex addict. There feels like a lot of stigma around that. And to say love and relationship addict, like then it's like, Oh, this is describing my experience from the inside. Like, so I, I really love the terminology and it's why I wanted you to comment on it, because I think it even just in naming it well,
Marnie Ferree (20:14.439)
Oh yes.
Absolutely.
Alex (20:36.489)
tell a different story.
Marnie Ferree (20:40.266)
The term sex addict is definitely a harsh one. I think particularly for women, again, I started speaking openly about these things 35 years ago, when no one ever thought they didn't understand sex addiction in men, much less in women. So that label is hard. I don't think it's an accurate one. This is really an intimacy disorder. Every bit of it. It's about breaches.
Alex (20:44.274)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (20:59.977)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (21:06.721)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (21:08.587)
good.
Marnie Ferree (21:09.394)
and desperate search for intimacy. Sex addict is the one that we're kind of stuck with, and that's okay, but I'm glad that you think it might be helpful to, let's get this picture broader than one might think.
Alex (21:16.756)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (21:24.071)
Right. Yep. So since we're talking terminology, I wanna ask you about one other term that I hear a lot more now and I'm glad we're hearing it, and that's the term betrayal trauma. Is that a term you use? And then can you kind of just tell us what all that entails?
Marnie Ferree (21:44.734)
Absolutely. Yes, it is a term we use. We use it at Bethesda workshops. We have for a good while. I certainly use it to describe myself and I see it in the faces and hearts of people who have been betrayed. This is trauma. This is a cataclysmic life event. I truly believe in my own spirit and now in my own experience.
Alex (22:03.733)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (22:15.062)
that this sexual and or relational betrayal within the covenant sacred, sacred sanctity of marriage is the worst thing that happens to anyone ever except for the death of a child. It is this big a deal. It is completely different than being betrayed by an alcoholic or gambling addict or a workaholic. This is a big deal.
It goes against every single thing that was supposed to be sacred and set apart within this relationship. It goes to the heart of, am I enough? It goes to the craziness of rewriting your history. When this information comes out or you realize that maybe you've kind of known, well, there's a pornography problem. But of course, you thought when you got married and were being sexual that that's going to take care of that issue.
goodness, we still have a problem and this is a whole lot more than I thought. Whenever that happens for someone, your mind immediately goes back through every single part of your relationship. Was that real? Was my person acting out then? Was somebody else involved there? This is as big as it gets. And it is trauma.
Alex (23:26.412)
Yes.
Alex (23:39.249)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (23:42.546)
good studies have shown that there is truly a PTSD level, post-traumatic stress disorder level for a good number of people around this betrayal trauma. So to honor that pain, that's the first step of walking with someone.
Alex (23:48.291)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (24:01.018)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (24:02.841)
I love that. That's what you said about your friend how she just met you in your pain, you know
I was reading on your website where you talk about sex addiction or sex is the number one addiction choice for Christians. And we're talking to Christians, we're talking to people in the church. And you know, one of the things that we're seeing just as a culture is that we have a lot of intimacy issues, people looking for intimacy in all the wrong places, love and sex and all the things. And so because of that, we're seeing, you know, in our counseling, a lot more women
primarily women is who we deal with who are experiencing this betrayal. I'm wondering as somebody who was on the side of being the betrayer and then learning that you were actually being were also betrayed, what were some of the what are some of the signs in your own life maybe that you missed along the way and what are some of the signs? Because I've a lot of times when I deal with women kind of what you're saying there's like well I know that my husband looked at pornography
It just seems like it's a lot bigger issue. And so in your experience, what are some of the warning signs that might cause a woman to pause? And I think also with technology, it's so much harder to, things can be hidden a lot easier than they used to be able to be hidden. So could you just speak to that?
Marnie Ferree (25:31.026)
I think some of the first really behavioral signs are what you mentioned. If you're seeing evidence of pornography or inappropriate history or chats or. Those those kinds of things, I think that's the typical sign. If sometimes people get like messages from.
from an affair partner or the affair partner's husband or somewhere saying, okay, here's what's going on. I think what was true for me though, and what I really encourage women to get really deep and look at is.
Marnie Ferree (26:15.826)
is that absence of that genuine intimacy. I'm not talking about buying flowers. I'm not talking about having good sex. I'm not talking about going to dinners or whatever. I'm talking about that heart level, gut level supporting each other, walking with each other, being emotionally vulnerable, both of you. It took years for me to realize, I thought that there was a lot of emotional vulnerability in my marriage because I did that.
Brenda (26:45.457)
Hmm.
Alex (26:45.736)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (26:46.186)
It took me a good long time and remember I teach this stuff to realize that my husband was not being emotionally vulnerable and available back to me. Oh, this is not a one sided thing. This takes two people. So to look for that core of genuine intimacy and all of its facets that's to me that's
That's God's plan for one flesh union. That whole entire package. And to not be willing to settle. To me today, a sad thing about my own story that I have come to terms with, and I still get to feel sad about it, is that it took me so long to recognize and admit and be willing to act on the fact that I deserved a genuine relationship.
For 15 years, I settled for a wasteland because we did life well, because we didn't fight, because he's a good guy, thinking that my desires for intimacy, and by that time I knew what it looked like, at least within unhealthy friendships, almost primarily for sure with women and in other kinds of settings. And I knew how much it was missing in my life. I just, after all the work I had done.
still didn't believe I really deserved that. Until it just about, this sounds so dramatic, but it's what it felt like inside, it just about killed me. And I said, I have got to be out of this relationship. So there aren't these checkpoints of how do you determine, do we really have this intimacy? But look for reciprocity about deep stuff, not about how was your day. Or what do you think about
this renovation we're doing for our kitchen. Deep stuff, look for emotional vulnerability, look for genuine support, that kind of Brene Brown being with that talks about empathy, which is to say, gosh, I have no idea really how to support you. I just want you to know I'm right here and we're not going anywhere and we'll get through this together. That's definitely good enough, you know?
Marnie Ferree (29:11.79)
But to look for those things and to not be willing to accept less than those things. And that's the personal work that a person gets to do.
Alex (29:26.547)
And then Marnie, once that betrayal is discovered, what are some of the losses that people then experience and how do people respond then to those losses?
Marnie Ferree (29:40.87)
There are some very predictable losses. We kind of codify them at Bethesda workshops. That sense of identity, who am I? I thought I was Mrs. So-and-so. I thought I had this kind of life. Who am I? That loss of connection with other people. I can't tell you how many women we work with at Bethesda workshops who've got a great support system, they think.
And maybe they're in a particular type of Bible study or a tennis group or birthday club or whatever with other women regularly. And yet they don't share about this betrayal. That the isolation of that, who do you tell? Because when I'm telling my betrayal trauma that's also outing my person.
Alex (30:37.204)
Yes.
Marnie Ferree (30:38.846)
And that's a hard hurdle for many betrayed spouses to get over. Well, if I tell what's going on with me, he might lose his job. He might lose respect in the community, whatever. Yeah, he might. But now that keeps both of us stuck. So that's loss.
Alex (30:54.967)
Mm-hmm, and then when you add children on top of it you're telling your children's father's story
Brenda (30:59.145)
Mm-hmm. It, it. Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (31:01.534)
Exactly. And so that's an entirely whole other, you know, 14 series of podcasts about how do you help children around these issues? So, so these kinds of losses, there's a craziness factor. I don't mean that unkindly, but that just loss of control of mind and body. Again, that total mental rumination. Going back through all the history, all the gas lighting.
Brenda (31:07.281)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex (31:09.719)
Right?
Marnie Ferree (31:30.73)
Do y'all know that term? That betrayed, betrayers do. Trying to make somebody else crazy, blame somebody else, distort their reality. And so you're trying to figure out how that's going on. Often, they're losses of help.
their somatic symptoms of the body, whether they're things like migraines or headaches or fatigue or flares of fibromyalgia or arthritis or anything like that, that gets exacerbated by stress, which is like basically anything. So there's so many losses, loss of the sense of the future. I thought we had a future planned and part of that was financial.
and had made all kinds of decisions based on some foundational assumptions, I guess, but things we had talked about for forever, including financially. And now to find out, whoa, I'm in a completely different ballpark than I, radically different, with a radically different future than I ever thought to be. So there are just so many losses that just add to that pain of just the
Alex (32:35.287)
Hmm.
Marnie Ferree (32:46.83)
knife in the back of the betrayal itself.
Alex (32:51.199)
And then here we come as believers, and I mean, don't get me wrong, Brendan and I've done a, what, seven series podcast on forgiveness. Like we are forgiving people who are called to forgive, but here we come as believers and we rush to the betrayed spouse's side and...
Marnie Ferree (33:03.118)
Sure.
Alex (33:11.195)
And what's the first thing that most people are going to say is, well, you have to forgive. And, and so you just need, yeah. And so I really love that you're teasing out all these losses because it takes so much time just to wrap your mind around all that you've lost and then the impact, the shock waves that go out from that loss to even introduce the idea of
Marnie Ferree (33:16.874)
You just need to forgive and move on.
Alex (33:41.149)
forgiveness before a person even or while a person is still so disoriented from loss it really is so uncompassionate and so premature.
Marnie Ferree (33:57.022)
And so this is a big word, but I would say abusive. To me, that is spiritual abuse that is adding to someone's pain. Have I forgiven my husband? Absolutely, because forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves. And that's a process. And I'll tell you right this minute as we're taping this podcast, it's my-
Alex (34:01.827)
Mm.
Alex (34:16.291)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (34:26.486)
would have been wedding anniversary number 42 for me. So today I get to forgive him again. I get to forgive me again for the way that I betrayed him. I betrayed him too. The difference is that I spent 25 years living life differently and begging for a new, healthy kind of relationship. But I've got plenty to forgive myself for.
Alex (34:30.607)
Mm.
Marnie Ferree (34:56.934)
So yes, this is so complicated. It's so multifaceted. And unfortunately, people who deeply love God and believe in holy principles like forgiveness, misapply them in situations that end up being very hurtful.
Alex (35:11.331)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (35:18.285)
One of the things that Alex and I had talked about was just kind of...
You talked about sexual love, sex, and relationship addiction being on a continuum. And so, you know, we might be talking to someone whose husband's looking at pornography or someone who's had one affair or somebody who's had multiple affairs and is addicted to pornography. And so how would you differentiate, you know, between what I'm going to say is a normal sexual sin experience versus an addiction?
impact the person who's being betrayed and even the ability to reconcile the relationship. That's a loaded question, but I don't know if you can kind of embody all of that.
Marnie Ferree (36:04.31)
Yes, I hear two parts in that question, Brenda. First, how does it go from just sin, and of course see the air quotes, to being an addiction? There's some pretty clear clinical delineating markers about that. Is it compulsive? Do I keep doing what I don't want to do despite my best efforts to stop? The person who can end the fair and stay ended and maintain boundaries, who can stop looking at pornography or...
compulsive masturbation or whatever it is that they're doing and they can stop, they're probably not an addict. It's when I really can't stop, despite the fact this is causing huge consequences in my life. I experienced lots of consequences and tried to stop, you know, 87 times and did, but couldn't stay stopped. So those things, the markers are where are we on this continuum?
Brenda (37:00.012)
good.
Marnie Ferree (37:00.366)
And that can be helpful. It can help a betrayed partner who is so further devastated by all these promises. I'm gonna stop. I won't ever do this again. And then the person does, and you're like, holy cow, you keep lying to me. Sure, we who betray lie in different ways. In this case, most of the time, I'm not.
intentionally actively lying in that moment, I really believe I don't want to do this again, and I'm going to stop. But if I'm an addict, I can't stop without additional intervention and help. And so I keep, keep betraying and betraying and betraying. And I think that goes to the second part of your question, Brenda, of how does this impact someone? Well, you know, when you keep running over by the Mack truck, a little more of you dies and gets crushed every single time.
And so there's a hopelessness about that. There's a despair about that. That is that much bigger of a mountain that the couple has to climb, that each person has to climb, and then in their coupleship they have to climb if they are going to repair and reconcile and redeem this relationship.
Alex (38:19.563)
Marty, one of the first questions I feel like Betrayed Spouse asks is, it's definitely gonna come in the first conversation that I have with them is, can we recover and how long is this gonna take?
Brenda (38:35.919)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (38:37.062)
I agree with you. Those are the questions I get on the phone, you know, 14 times a week. And they're, of course, they're reasonable questions. Can we recover? Absolutely. I believe that with all of my heart. And in fact, I think that the relationships who have been through this fire and come out on the other side thrive. They're healthier, they're more intimate, they're better.
Alex (38:41.013)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (39:05.25)
than your average married folks out there. But the real kicker is it takes two healthy people to have a healthy relationship. Now one person can blow it up. I did that and 30 years later, I discovered my husband did that. But it takes two healthy people to have a healthy relationship, which means that both spouses get to do some
Alex (39:28.159)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (39:35.118)
very, very deep work. And they get to do now, and that's the foundation for a restart to repair the marriage. But both people have to do it. And I believe that partner's journey is so much harder. Because here's all the grieving and all the stuff around the betrayal. And then here's the other deeper work, as I mentioned, why did I settle for so many years?
Alex (39:44.343)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (40:05.102)
There are a lot of reasons I understand about that now. So that's the first, can they recover? Absolutely. And around here at Bethesda, we call those the folks who have done each of their individual workshops, like Healing for Men and Healing for Partners, and then they come to Healing for Couples. We tell them, you've joined the club of the healthiest people on earth, because they really are the best relationships. The second question, how long does it take?
Alex (40:27.363)
Hehehe
Brenda (40:28.581)
that.
Mm.
Marnie Ferree (40:36.339)
Always tell people that it takes much longer than you would like and not nearly as long as you may think if all these three pieces are in place and you're doing that work. There's no way around it. There's a pretty hellacious first year or two. It's just hard. That first year especially is very, very intense as each person is trying to find their footing.
and learning how to breathe in this pain and all of those kinds of things. But for the people who go through that process and then stick with it, the second year is significantly easier and it keeps getting better. Are there triggers? For a lifetime. And they won't eat your lunch the way they do in the beginning. Are there still regular life challenges? Of course. Are there still deeper marriage challenges? Sure.
This is all part of being human. And it really is possible to get past betrayal. You don't really get over it. You just, it's like if you lose a leg in a car accident, you're always gonna have this last leg, but you learn to walk on a prosthetic or crutches or use a chair or something. And you come to a new and much healthier normal and a whole different stratosphere.
of life and relationship.
Brenda (42:07.985)
I feel like coming from you, that should be so encouraging for people listening to our podcast with that level of just hope that you've given. Thank you so much for that. That's great. What were you going to say, Alex?
Marnie Ferree (42:17.502)
You're welcome.
Alex (42:22.079)
Well, this is kind of like, this has helped me be a better counselor, Marnie. One of the things that...
Marnie Ferree (42:27.331)
Okay.
Brenda (42:27.857)
Hehehehe
Alex (42:29.383)
You know, one of the places that I struggle as a counselor, and I bring it up because of course, we want to talk to people who are walking alongside people who are experiencing betrayal. And so I think people will have experienced this, but one of the things I find so hard is that a betrayed spouse is often asking the question, is there more? Do I know everything?
And there is a sense that they're kind of always waiting for the next shoot a drop. And it's very hard to walk with someone when you yourself, you don't know. There could be more, right? So I'm just wondering if you could speak to that because I know that if our listeners are walking with someone who's betrayed, this is going to be part of their conversation.
Brenda (43:10.501)
Right.
Marnie Ferree (43:12.506)
All right.
Marnie Ferree (43:22.382)
Sure, sure. The simple answer is there's almost always more, at least from what might have come out in the very beginning. There's a beautiful therapeutic clinical process to help with this called full disclosure. It's complicated, it's pretty high level clinical skills and extraordinary amounts of work, especially on the part of the betrayer.
Alex (43:28.171)
That's right.
Alex (43:39.234)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (43:50.05)
but also on the spouses part to do some preparation about that. It's the best tool I know of to move this forward in this regard of do I know everything? Can an addict still lie? Sure. Do they sometimes? Sometimes. The rest of the question, though, is what I believe with all of my heart, is that ultimately,
If a person is doing her own work, ultimately you will not be deceived for forever.
And I think you won't be deceived for nearly as long as I was deceived. Because if this secret has come out and now both people are dealing with it and they're addressing it and they're looking at the coupleship and they're doing this kind of work, then here's kind of a starting point, you know, to begin this process. And from that point, if someone is learning to live...
Alex (44:29.614)
great.
Alex (44:35.202)
Mm.
Alex (44:48.615)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (44:56.346)
in her own authenticity and intimacy with self and different kinds of ways that God has shown me in a deeper way in the last few years than I knew before and I had done so much work. You will not be deceived forever or for too long.
Alex (45:14.591)
That's a good encouragement. And also what I hear you saying is full disclosure is a, it's an actual process and people are trained in the process of full disclosure. And so if you're a friend walking with another friend, I think some of the, just like we don't rush the betrayed spouse to forgiveness, we don't actually even rush full disclosure. It's a process to walk through with someone who knows how to walk through that with you. And it's good.
Marnie Ferree (45:22.955)
Yes.
Alex (45:44.585)
to encourage a betrayer to go through that process.
Marnie Ferree (45:48.098)
Absolutely, both parties deserve it and it's helpful for both. And I'm so glad you brought up this nuance of the deal here, Alex, because one of the biggest mistakes that couples make is to try to deal with this by themselves at their kitchen table or sitting on the edge of their bed or couch at 11 p.m. And that is terrible. We beg people when they're engaging with
with clinical work or a very well-trained coach, that also works, very well-trained helper to stop your personal conversations about these things, which for the betrayed person is real hard. I wanna know, so what was going on here and did you do this? You're gonna get those answers and you're gonna get them in a way that is healthier and more productive than you're badgering or pestering him.
for those answers as we're going along, or then him putting them out just these little bitty tidbits at a time, which is cutting the dog's tail off an inch at a time. It's a terrible, terrible process all the way around. So to encourage people on both sides. Sometimes the addict wants to tell everything because I want to dump my shame on you. And that makes me feel better. Here, I've told the truth. That's not helpful.
Alex (46:56.422)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (47:00.371)
Yep.
Alex (47:11.094)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (47:15.458)
healthy motivation for disclosure. And then the partners are just so distraught, they want to know what I'm dealing with, which is an understandable, reasonable, healthy objective. But doing it by themselves as a couple, which is almost always volatile, it's very painful, is not the way to meet that objective.
Brenda (47:40.421)
Marty, I know you said that this process is really drawing you deeper into a relationship with Jesus.
maybe even just as a, this might be our final question, we might be getting close on time, but what practical encouragement would you give someone listening today who's experiencing betrayal, and especially just how the Lord will meet them, the Lord can use this, like just what's your journey with Jesus been like, and what encouragement would you give to somebody who's in that betrayal spot today in the confidence that they might have in the Lord in particularly?
Marnie Ferree (48:19.09)
I love the question and I could talk for hours and hours and hours about that one. I guess first I want to say each person's journey is their own journey. So someone else's might not look like mine. I will always remember I entered a process of spiritual direction, an official work with a spiritual director probably 15 years ago now. And I will never forget.
At our first meeting, she said to me, Marnie, this process is not necessarily going to help with all of this pain in your life and with all of the loneliness that you have felt all your life. And what it can help with is for you not to feel so alone in it. Meaning.
This process of connecting with Jesus, as well as with God, with the Spirit, in a whole different kind of way, a contemplative way, a mindful way, it feels to me like a whole bodily way, it was just life-changing. And I can truly say that I am not lonely. I have not felt alone in
Alex (49:30.87)
Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (49:45.454)
astonishing support system. I think that no one on the planet was better prepared to have this totally, totally shocking and devastating discovery than I was because I've had 30 years of personal healing. I understood what it meant to be on the betraying side of the coin and I had this amazing support system and it was still hard.
But the ways that I don't feel alone are primarily spiritual and those are new or at least they're very much deepened. Just that it feels like this total mindful presence of God. Always. It helps me notice what I call God visitations. Consolations is the word in spiritual direction.
those consoling things. To me, they're hawks in the sky, they're red birds, they're the moon, they're all these little different things. This mind-rattle thing happened this morning as I did an errand coming to Bethesda workshops to do this podcast and someone was just unusually kind, I thought, and I went, ah, there you are, Jesus. There you are. That level, see, that's not dependent on anybody else. That's not dependent on does he do what he's supposed to do.
Brenda (51:05.361)
Comforts are many. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Marnie Ferree (51:13.578)
You can't control that. Can we save this marriage? You can't really control that either because that member takes two people. That's dependent. That's coming from within and that's coming from a relationship with God that though my relationship with God had so changed from the shaming, condemning God in my childhood to a very nurturing, loving, relational God, it's changed now again at a more personal way. I don't know how to describe more.
what that looks like for me. It looked like spiritual direction. It looked like doing deeper counseling and trauma work. It looked like quietness, more contemplation, more mindfulness. It looks like hiking, doing things personally that are nurturing for me and that I enjoy. It looks like talking at deep levels like this with people.
Brenda (52:05.201)
Thank you, that's good.
Alex (52:06.015)
Marnie, I think where I connect with what you're saying is that when I think about betrayal in particular.
And we can see so clearly the deep betrayal that Jesus experienced on our behalf. And of course, that is a place to fellowship in His sufferings and to know His fellowship. But what I hear you saying is a little bit more of the relationship with Holy Spirit. And so we know the fellowship of the suffering of Jesus.
can become intellectual, but what you're describing in stillness and solitude, in the presence of other believers who are connected to the Spirit in that way, is just a deep ministry of the Holy Spirit to our hearts and the comforter. Yes, and to in places where I've known deep sorrow, it's where it is indescribable
Marnie Ferree (53:01.492)
The comforter, the spirit's called the comforter.
Alex (53:16.378)
I'm really glad that you mentioned that because I think when we have been hurt in relationship we do need to heal in relationship. That's true and the body of Christ plays a deep role in that, but there can be a fear to even enter into those relationships again, particularly with betrayal. That means that some healing has to be done with the Spirit of God before I'm even willing
else to come into that betrayal with me.
Marnie Ferree (53:45.862)
Yes.
Brenda (53:49.625)
Yeah, and I love what you're saying about comfort too, because one thing we often talk about is that of course we receive the comfort of Christ for forgiveness of our sins, but also the way the comfort of Christ completely changes us in our suffering and our sorrowing. That there's ways that I experience the deepness of God's love as he comes to comfort me from my suffering and then a different way that I experience when he comes to forgive me and gives me comfort in my sin.
Marnie Ferree (54:10.722)
Yes.
Brenda (54:19.879)
given from the Lord that allow us to, like you said, experience Him in deeper ways, which then allows us to have a greater overflow of that experience to others, which is so clear from your life as well.
So Alex, was there anything else? I think we're about to have to wrap this up, but I don't want to cut us off. There's so much else. I know, I know. We'll just have to have Marnie Pat. Well, Marnie, you know, I would like just to leave maybe with this one thought. If somebody is listening and they have learned of, you know, a disclosure of betrayal, maybe could you just leave our, maybe that listener with one encouraging, just an encouraging thought or an encouraging word.
Alex (54:37.367)
There's so much else, but I think we're over. Ha ha.
Marnie Ferree (54:38.638)
Thank you.
Marnie Ferree (55:02.406)
I would say to that person, you will be.
all will be well and all shall be well and all manner of things shall be well. That there is healing, that this is so painful and God and Jesus and the Spirit are right here, right this very moment. And you will survive and you can thrive and you can be well no matter what happens with this circumstance.
Brenda (55:36.377)
That's a good word to leave us on Marnie. Thank you so much Marnie. We really appreciate you taking time to be with us today and just God bless you and your ministry and the work that you're doing at Bethesda and just seeing the lives of men and women and even teenagers be transformed and of course we know all for the glory of God. So thank you so much.
Alex (55:40.003)
Thank you.
Marnie Ferree (55:40.907)
Thank you.
Marnie Ferree (55:58.53)
Thank you. Many blessings to y'all and your work in ministry.
Brenda (56:02.309)
Thank you.