Season 5 Episode 8: Tim Challies: A Story of Immeasurable Suffering and Incomparable Hope

Alex (00:14.572)

Well Brenda, we're in season five on suffering and today we have a special guest with us. Tim Challis is a Christian, a husband to Eileen and a father to two girls, one of whom is married and one son who is waiting in heaven. He worships and serves as a pastor at Grace Fellowship Church in Toronto, Ontario. And he started blogging daily in 2003. And you and I remarked earlier,

daily is a commitment. If we blogged daily, we would never get anything else done. But in addition to his daily blogs, he has written eight books, including his newest book, Season of Sorrows, The Pain of Loss and the Comfort of God. And he wrote that after the death of his son Nick in 2020. And so Tim, we're just really grateful that you're with us and that you're willing to share.

Alex (01:14.466)

your story. Thank you.

Tim (01:17.099)

You're very welcome. Thank you for having me.

Alex (01:20.152)

We were hoping you would share with us the story of how Nick went to be with Jesus and how God has sustained you and your family in this time of suffering.

Tim (01:31.914)

Yeah, sure. I'm glad to give you the background to that. And Nick is our oldest child, our firstborn, our only son. And in 2020, he was a college and seminary student down in Louisville, Kentucky. He was enrolled in both Boyce College undergraduate and Southern Seminary, obviously, and doing those programs concurrently. And had just gotten engaged and was looking forward to

to getting married a few months after and then just very suddenly one day he was out with friends just playing a game together when he collapsed and was gone and very unexpected nothing leading up to it no obvious signs and even since then no diagnosis he just collapsed and was gone and friends paramedics doctors weren't able to revive him and so yeah we just got the news back at home

Tim (02:31.748)

of sorrow that as a writer I began to write about it not for any purpose but just to process it in my own heart and my own mind but that eventually led to the series of meditations that became Seasons of Sorrow.

Alex (02:47.348)

Well, I want to just tell you that I have a dear friend who lost her son this summer and when I told her that we were interviewing you, she just jumped out of her skin and this book has just meant so much to her. She got chills over her whole body and I already see how it is ministering to people because it is a deeply personal book. You're just very honest.

Alex (03:17.342)

staff. I know that it can be hard when you are leading a congregation when you're ministering to others to put your very private deep thoughts, especially of sorrow, down for others to read. And I wondered just what made you decide to let others into this season and to make this public?

Tim (03:41.962)

Yeah, I think it's because I, as a writer, I was already writing things and putting them out on my website and finding that people were engaged with these things, which is, you know, anybody can get engaged in a story of tragedy or loss, but also finding that people were being helped by it. One of the things writers like to do is write things out so that other people who may not have the same gift, the same ability to communicate through the written word, they can read it and say, oh yeah, me too.

And that way you can sometimes speak on behalf of other people, even if they don't know it. And I was finding that I was writing, as I was writing about loss, as I was writing about sorrow, grief, and just describing my story, other people were resonating with it, and they were saying, yeah, that describes me as well. And so as the year went on, and you know, the pain began to...

change I guess and we just began to grow accustomed to the pain rather than it being so fresh and new in the early days I started to think about what I could do with these things I'd written some of which I'd shared through my blog others of which I hadn't I'd kept personal and private but in the end it just seemed like it would be a useful thing to do is to share it with other people and part of the

One thing that I think is somewhat unique about the book is that it was written day by day in the moment And so if I were to write a book on grief now, it would be radically different And if I were to write in 10 years, it would be radically different again And in some ways it would be better. I'm sure it'd be more mature reflections on the other hand some of the rawness and the in the moment aspect of it would be lost and so Um, so maybe there is another book i'll be writing in seven or ten years when I really matured Um in my grief, but I think it was the book

Brenda (05:18.4)

Hmm

Alex (05:19.246)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (05:29.528)

But it was the book I could write in the moment, and I think other people have been blessed and comforted by it.

Brenda (05:37.744)

Yeah, during this season of suffering, we have already discussed a good bit about lament. And, you know, your book is a book full of laments. That's what your writing really is. But one of the things that really caught our attention was something that you call a suffering manifesto.

and we really like to give our listeners some tools and some frameworks, things that they can take and use for themselves. And so, love to know, first of all, what is a manifesto? You can explain what that is. And then, you know, how did you write it? Why did you write it? And how it's helped you on your journey? So maybe you just tell us a little bit about the manifesto itself and then we'd love to walk through that with you and kind of break it down and have some discussion over that.

Alex (06:09.676)

Mm-hmm

Tim (06:26.246)

A manifesto is just a declaration of goals or policies or aims or something along those lines and it's something to hold yourself accountable to and in a sense for other people to hold you accountable to. But I think it's an aspirational kind of document. This is what I'm declaring I will do or this is how I'm declaring I will respond.

Alex (06:38.849)

Hmm.

Tim (06:48.082)

Yeah, you often see it in the political world more than in the world, the personal world or the spiritual world. But as I was just grappling with loss and trying to put the pieces together, you know, theologically and just...

Alex (06:53.332)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (07:02.494)

personally, I felt there would be, I felt I needed something I could hold myself to, something that would declare how I was going to get through this time, how I was going to pass through it as a Christian. And very early I just felt I need to, the Lord is calling me to pass through this time in a distinctly Christian way. There are lots of ways you can endure suffering as a Stoic or just as a humanist or something else, but wanting to face this as a Christian.

calling me to do, and even accepting the responsibility of it, that God means to accomplish something through us at all times, even in our sorrows. There's meaning, there's purpose in it. And so I think the manifesto gave word to some of those things and just gave me something I can go back to time and again and read it and say, am I still doing this? And is this still the way I'm behaving? Am I staying true to what I believe God was calling me to in those very early and raw days?

Alex (07:36.46)

Hmm.

Alex (08:01.953)

Hmm.

Brenda (08:02.924)

I like when you say it's an aspirational document because you wrote it in those early days and I think somebody reading it might just be like, oh my goodness, I'm not there, I'll never get there. But I think that's kind of the point that it's the hope of like this is where I want to be Lord, this is where my heart is oriented, this is the desire and so Lord I'm asking you to get me there to take me there.

Alex (08:24.486)

Mmm.

Tim (08:25.322)

Yeah, and you know, I think it came out of reading I was doing from authors who were largely in the 1700s and 1800s. So in those early days, these were the friends I turned to, authors I knew through their books and most of them were, again, 1700s, 1800s, and most of them were writing, pastoring, leading people in an era where the death of a child was far more common than it is today. And one of the things I saw in their writing was tons of love and care and compassion.

Alex (08:48.059)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (08:55.062)

but also this, um.

this idea that, okay, God is calling you to something through this. You can't live indefinitely in the early days of your pain. You need to progress through this, and then you need to accept this from God and do something with your pain, do something with your sorrow, press on in life. All God's promises are really true. This too is a light, momentary affliction, and you need to pass through this well. And so I felt there that I was being called to something as well. That um...

Yeah, that I couldn't, I just, I couldn't waste my life wallowing in self pity as maybe it would have been my temptation as somebody who's, yeah, possibly tempted to do that at the best of times.

Alex (09:33.825)

Hmm.

Alex (09:38.948)

And I think what I love about it is that in seasons of my own life of deep grief or sorrow, we know that grief is so disorienting. We lose our way very quickly when we're grieving. And so this becomes an orienting place. We're like what you said about accountability because our own words call us back to who we want to be.

Tim (10:07.241)

Yeah.

in our grief, we're very prone to be led by our emotions and then to interpret truth through our emotions rather than the other way around. So we let our emotions lead the way. Far better to let truth lead the way and then do our absolute utmost to allow our emotions to be shaped by truth. And again, a statement like this, I think, can be orienting in that way. And again, there's something about the rawness of doing it in the relatively early days of grief.

Alex (10:12.676)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (10:38.228)

that I think is meaningful as well. I put it out on my website so anybody can copy and paste it, and they can change the wording as they see fit. They can put a different name in there, or they can change some of the words however they see fit, but hopefully other people can latch onto it and write something similar that would orient them. Every grief is different, every person is different.

But I hope it gives people a tool they can work with, as you said, something to resource them in their grief.

Brenda (11:12.416)

Well, how about we start reading it? Why don't we let you read a paragraph at a time? And then I know I have some questions as you go through and you might wanna make some additional comments. I'm sure Alex has questions. So I think that would be really beautiful and meaningful to have you read it for us. So I'll let you get started.

Alex (11:23.761)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (11:30.846)

Okay, so it begins this way,

Tim (11:47.626)

By faith I will praise God in the taking as I did in the giving, and by faith receive from His hand this sorrow as I have so many joys. I will grieve but not grumble, mourn but not murmur, weep but not whine.

Brenda (12:04.744)

All right, so right off the bat when I read this, the first time, by faith, you say that six times in this first paragraph. And so what do you mean when you say by faith you will?

Tim (12:18.658)

We come to the Lord Jesus Christ by faith. We put our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and we're saved. But that's not where our faith expires. That's not all we need faith for. Faith is something we continue to express day by day, week by week, year by year. And in our sorrows, I think we're called especially to express that faith, to continue to rest.

in God just as we rest in Him for our salvation. We say, I'm not going to try to save myself. I'm by faith, I'm taking you at your word that you have sent your Son to die for us. So now I'm resting everything on you. In our grief, it's much the same. We're saying, I'm trusting you with this, trusting that you have meaning in it, trusting that you have purpose in it, trusting that this was your will, trusting that in some way it's good, all of this. And so we're really just resting on God, which is why the repetition of by faith, we need faith,

Alex (13:09.1)

Hmm.

Tim (13:12.732)

we don't have faith, then we can start casting about for who did this, you know, why did this happen? But ultimately, we just want to fix ourselves on God, fix our hearts, our minds on Him, and trust Him with it.

Alex (13:17.836)

Hmm.

Alex (13:26.625)

Mm-hmm. Reminds me of that.

Don't question in the dark what we know in the light. Like when we're in these seasons of darkness, we have to hold on to what we knew to be true before the darkness descended or we're really lost. But the other thing I like about this first paragraph, Tim, is that you use these words, grieve, mourn, and weep. Like this manifesto is not to separate you from grief. It's actually to join you. It's to be a companion in grief. So it's not stoicism.

Tim (13:57.526)

Not the least little bit, no. And, but what it does admit, and this is hard for us to face in our grief, is that we can sin in our grief, and that, not even that, but Satan never fights fair. So when you're at your worst, his temptations will come strong. He's not gonna step away and say, wow, he's having a tough time right now, I'm just gonna leave him for a little bit. I mean, he's gonna press the attack.

Alex (14:15.883)

Mm.

Tim (14:21.946)

even when you are at your worst. And that's one of the reasons I'm sure that very early on in the very early days someone came to me and said, you should just express your anger to God, you should shake your fist at God and let him know what you think about him, that he allowed something like this to happen. I really believe right there that was a temptation to sin and then to face this whole situation through a sinful lens. And so it is good to grieve, you know, Jesus himself stood outside the tomb of his friend and he wept.

So grieving, mourning, weeping, these are all good. They're natural expressions of God-given human emotion. But the converse words grumbling, murmuring, whining, these are inappropriate responses, even sinful responses to grief. And you know, many of us, of course, we all do sin in our grief and God is good and faithful to forgive us for that, but still we want to call ourselves to pass through this sinlessly.

Brenda (15:18.835)

I'm really glad you brought that up because I think with

throughout this podcast on suffering, we've wrestled with the idea of honest and raw grief and deep pain because it is that deep pain that can make us lose our minds and temporarily seem like we lose our faith, but then maintaining reverence for the Lord. And we don't always maintain reverence for the Lord, to your point. We do sin. We do cross those lines into charging God with things that in ways in maligning His character.

I think equally comforting is that when we do that and the Holy Spirit convicts that we can run right to the Savior and ask for forgiveness. But to your point, you know, it's definitely a temptation and something I love that you wrote here to acknowledge that, hey, this is a real temptation for me and for anybody who's struggling. But at the same time, it doesn't have to be something I give into. And if I do give into it, there's grace for that, too.

Alex (16:20.767)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (16:21.61)

Yeah, exactly so.

Brenda (16:24.84)

Yeah. Well, great. You want to go ahead and read the second paragraph?

Tim (16:28.022)

Certainly, yeah. So, though I will be scarred by Nick's death, I will not be defined by it. Though it will always be part of my story, it will never become my identity. I will be forever thankful that God gave me a son and never resentful that He called him home. My joy in having loved Nick will be greater than my grief in having lost him. I will not waver in my faith, nor abandon my hope, nor evoke my love. I will not charge God with wrong.

Alex (17:00.792)

I think this goes back to what you were talking about, Brenda. Like this is the honest wrestle. You can hear the wrestle in the back and forth. I won't do this, I will do this. And gosh, when you even, when you're reading it, Tim, it feels like a tall order. I just like, wow. I don't think I could do it.

Tim (17:24.298)

Yeah, and you know what's interesting is that none of us think we can do it and none of us can do it because God doesn't give us the grace for it until we're in the moment.

Alex (17:33.448)

True, so true.

Tim (17:34.438)

And so when we imagine situations happening, we imagine the loss of a child. Somehow we never imagine the grace. We just imagine the grief. But God is so good and so faithful that in the moment He calls us to grief. He also grants us the grace to endure it well. He puts people around us to speak truth to us and support us. He gives us an army of people praying for us, many of whom we'll never meet and never know on this side of glory. But in all these ways, He gives us what we need

Alex (17:42.892)

Mmm.

Brenda (17:43.953)

Mm.

Tim (18:04.352)

way that pleases and honors Him.

Brenda (18:07.528)

It really is supernatural. It's a supernatural comfort. And to your point, I like what you're saying, that we can get so fixated on the what-ifs and the grief without seeing the grace. You talk about being scarred by Nick's death, but not defined by it. What's the difference there between being scarred by suffering and being defined by it?

Tim (18:10.007)

Yeah.

Tim (18:29.354)

Yeah, I think the next sentence is explanatory as well, though it will always be part of my story, it will never become my identity. And so what I wanted to avoid was making this all I ever talk about. And I'm sure you've met people before who when you start talking to them about anything, you can just see that they're waiting, and they just want to tell you whatever it is that defines them. They're, I don't know, they're medical issues or their grief story or something. And it's very important to them.

Tim (19:00.028)

such a deep part of who they are that it really forms their identity. And our identity as Christians is found in our relationship with Jesus Christ, you know. We've been grafted into Christ. That's our deepest identity. I am in Christ. And though certainly I'm Nick's dad and though certainly grief is part of my story, that's not the be-all, that's not the end of it all. God's still calling me primarily to be His child and to live in that way before

My story is not one of, ultimate story is not one of grief and loss. My ultimate story is one of salvation, of fallen redemption. That's the big story. This story just fits within it.

Alex (19:38.166)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (19:43.752)

You talk about... go ahead, Alex. No, no, you go ahead. No, no, really, you go.

Alex (19:44.04)

I feel like this... Oh, go ahead, Brian. Ha ha.

I feel like this paragraph is really... I talk a lot when I sit with people grieving, just really in all of counseling, about holding the ambivalence of sorrowful yet always rejoicing. And I feel like this paragraph puts really great language to the idea, like really hammers out what sorrowful and always rejoicing will feel like or will be lived like.

Tim (20:18.666)

Yeah, and I think in our sorrows, we have to take God at His Word that...

this is a light momentary affliction. In the moment it feels very, very heavy and it feels eternal. It feels like this will be all it is. And of course that's true. So by faith we just have to transport ourselves to this future, a million zillion years into the future and say, these let's say 40 years of having to endure this sorrow, when I compare that amount of time and then I compare the glory of heaven, the glory of being with God, and where all of this will

sense, we'll see the story of what God is doing, we'll see what He's accomplished through this, we'll see how even this brought Him glory, then yeah, I can buy faith even though it doesn't feel like it. Again, we're gonna put our knowledge ahead of our emotions here. We're gonna say, no, this is light and momentary and I can live as if that's true. That doesn't mean it's still, it doesn't sit heavy on my heart, doesn't mean we don't still cry, we're not Stoics, we're Christians, but we're simply taking God at His Word.

Brenda (21:26.184)

There's two middle sentences where you say, I'll be forever thankful that God gave me a son and my joy in having loved Nick. How do you think that has changed or just your view as you've gotten three years away? You talk a little bit about things that you've forgotten. I know when you wrote, it's been three years. And so how are you dealing with just the memories or the grief and your thoughts of Nick at this season?

Tim (21:54.022)

My love for Nick has grown. Um, I love him more than ever. And love does grow over time and absence does make the heart grow fonder. And then also, you know, the love you feel for your loved one, as you get closer to them, you know, you've been away for a time. Um, you're, you're almost home, you know, you're walking through the airport looking for that person. The closer you get, the more you just feel that sense of, of desire to see them. And so, you know, every day I'm walking toward the end of my life, as are all of us.

him has grown and continues to grow all the more. And I really I've really just been focusing on the joy it was to be his dad, the gift he was to me from the Lord. And I want that. If I had to go back, I wouldn't I wouldn't say I would rather not have had him at all than to have him for just 20 years and then lose him. So the pain is absolutely deep and raw and painful. But.

the joy of having known him, the love I have for him and he for me, all that makes it worth it and more. And then of course the knowledge that I'll see him again. This isn't the end of my story, not the end of my fatherhood. He's still my son, always will be.

Brenda (22:59.178)

listen.

Alex (23:01.74)

Hmm.

Brenda (23:09.432)

So beautiful.

Alex (23:13.221)

Okay, third paragraph.

Tim (23:17.994)

I will receive this trial as a responsibility to steward, not a punishment to endure. I will look for God's smile in it rather than his frown, listen for his words of blessing rather than his voice of rebuke.

The sorrow will not make me angry or bitter, nor cause me to act out in rebellion or indignation. Rather, it will make me kinder and gentler, more patient and loving, more compassionate and sympathetic. It will loose my heart from the things of earth and fix it on the things of heaven. The loss of my son will make me more like God's son, my sorrow like the man of sorrows.

Alex (23:58.336)

So this is the part to me that feels like, okay, what am I gonna do with this? And it reminds me, I think it's a Puritan idea that we're entrusted with suffering. This is when we talk about a responsibility to steward and not a punishment to endure, I think about, okay, if I'm gonna, I can distinctly remember geographically where I stood in a season of a lot of physical pain, where I, it clicked.

clicked for me and I said to God okay like I got it this is part this is my story and so teach me how to live with this like what do I what now how do I live

Tim (24:45.932)

Yeah.

Yeah, and you know, we have lots of people in our lives in the Christian world who have modeled this for us. And so when we're in times of deep pain or deep sorrow, there's people we look up to, and through their pain, through their suffering, they've had this qualification, this knowledge that they've then imparted to us. And so what suffering person doesn't want to read books by John E. Erickson Tata and say, you know, what a blessing she is to us, what a blessing she is to the church, and look what she models.

Alex (25:11.128)

Amen.

Tim (25:16.848)

joyful she is, even though she suffered far worse than most of us will over the course of her lifetime. Just look at what joy she carries through life and how her pain has given her this ministry. These things are connected. She serves so faithfully with this very, very hard thing that God has called her to. She's just one example of just thousands and thousands. And so when I was still new to grief, I was reading books by people, again in

Tim (25:46.668)

their qualification was not their knowledge of Scripture. I mean that too, but they had suffered and now they were able to tell their stories of suffering and through that comfort encouraged me and model all this for me. So yeah, no matter what we're going through, if God is really sovereign, then God in some way has a part in this. In some way this is His will for us. This doesn't happen purely from Satan or apart from the knowledge and will of God. He is in some way involved in this.

Alex (25:50.676)

Yeah.

Tim (26:16.709)

to something through it.

Alex (26:19.22)

I think that one of the things that meant a lot to me was the series that John Piper did of biographies. And he would do one every year and then he would release them as books. But those biographies, like you said, of people from 100, 200, 300 years ago, and they, he would teach their biography and then he would teach orienting principles of their lives.

Alex (26:48.334)

biography person until I didn't understand my suffering.

Tim (26:54.102)

Yeah, and that makes sense because we just learn so much from other people and from their example. And I also want to point us to the local church because I think generally God has given us the resources we need right in our church. That's not always true, but so often there's people right in our orbit, right in our world who can reach out to us and comfort us.

Alex (26:56.102)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (27:14.626)

Probably in most churches there's a widow can a new widow can reach out and there will be older widows there or somebody Who's lost a child? Probably there's somebody else there who's lost a child and What a blessing what a comfort that those people can be right there to truly minister to us and help us in our sorrows and griefs

Brenda (27:36.396)

I also like the way you're being intentional in this to look and listen for God.

Because I think there has to be somewhat of an intentionality because grief can be so loud and drowned out and blind us. And then of course that causes us to turn inward. But even the wording that you use here, God's smile, listen to His words of blessing, just speaks of a kind shepherd, a good God, a tender mercy, you know. And I think that really does get lost in suffering so often.

is the what's tragic and we're missing what's beautiful and so often that beauty is what brings the comfort in our lives.

Tim (28:21.75)

Yeah, so much of our interpretation of suffering will flow out of our understanding of God. If we know that God is a loving, kind Father, we know that God is a good shepherd, whatever it is, that allows us to then interpret our circumstances. So always in the back of my mind through times of sorrow is Psalm 23, you know, the Lord is my shepherd. Okay, that's who God is. And yet here we go to, you're going through these, the valley of the shadow of death, you know.

shadow of death, I will fear no evil. Why, for you are with me, your rod and your staff, they comfort me, but.

this isn't the wandering sheep, right? This isn't the naughty sheep who's gone astray and has to be brought back. This is the shepherd leading you through the valley of the shadow of death. So, that good shepherd who loves you is not only present in the valley, but he's the one who brought you into it, and he's the one who's going to take you out again. And so, just understanding who our God is, that His love for us doesn't change, He's never mad at us in the sense, you know, He's

threatening us or whatever, you know, God is, He's our Father, He's our shepherd, He loves us, He cares for us, and if we're going through something difficult, ultimately He's got good reasons and good purposes in it. And so we can trust Him and we can follow Him and we can, we can believe that someday, even if not on this side of the grave, it really will make sense. Not only that, but someday we'll say, you did all things well. We'll believe and we'll praise God for all of these things.

Alex (29:47.429)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (29:52.848)

Now you talk here about some of the temptations that we can have, the anger, the bitterness, rebellion, igno-nation, and because this is an aspirational work, like Lord, this is who I want to become. What for you was your greatest temptation? Where was your struggle?

Tim (30:09.406)

I think it was mostly just to become too morose, to go too deep into it and to forget all of God's goodness, all of God's mercies.

even in grief, there's just so much to thank God for, so much to praise God for. His mercies are new every morning, his greatest is faithfulness, and even in our sorrow, we wouldn't want to stop identifying those evidences of God's love and giving God thanks for them. We're not absolved of the need to, the responsibility to praise God for his goodness, even in our sorrows as well. So, I think it was really that, to just become consumed by the grief,

take my focus off God's mercies. And then another temptation I think is for us to kind of live in the future. Well, the temptation would be for us to interpret God's providence based on our very limited knowledge now. So to say this is why God did this. And we can't know that. God's purposes are so vast. God is accomplishing so many things. We can just see little glimpses of it. So we can maybe

Brenda (31:08.788)

Yeah.

Tim (31:17.654)

take guesses at sometimes, but far better, I think, just to praise God for the evidences of how he is using it, but not to allow that to say that is why God did it. So I'll praise God if I hear that somebody was comforted through seasons of sorrow that encourages me, that blesses me, but I would never say, well, that's why God did this. That's why God permitted Nick to die, or that's why God called Nick home at this time so that person could be comforted. I think God's way bigger than that. So I think just that being careful not to be too

Tim (31:47.973)

of events.

Alex (31:49.944)

And it occurs to me from your, even your acknowledging it even in the first sentence you're about, it's not a punishment to endure. Usually the first simplistic place people go to is, what have I done wrong? God must be punishing me. And so this is a commitment to, yeah, yeah.

Tim (32:05.718)

Yeah, yeah, we dealt with that one.

Alex (32:09.268)

This is a commitment to push back on that. I mean, of course, I always say to people, if the Holy Spirit's convicting you of something, confess it. But he's gonna be really plain in his conviction. He's gonna be very straightforward. He's not hiding your sin from you. It's his job to convict you. So do that business with him, ask him, and then let go of the idea that you're being punished just because it's painful.

Tim (32:35.471)

Yeah, yeah, we had to deal with this one in the early days, and the solution for me was just to step out of the center of the universe and think that the whole universe was oriented around me so that I had done something so God would take my adult, independent son as a punishment for me. That just, that doesn't seem...

Brenda (32:45.692)

Mm.

Tim (32:54.566)

normal, that doesn't seem right. And yet there is that sense of what did I do to make this happen to him, when it's your child or maybe when it's your spouse. Yeah, so I think once I was able to just say, no, that's, I don't see God working that way in Scripture, I don't see God working that way in history. That was a real sense of relief, but it was a fear or guilt I was feeling that was irrational, unnecessary.

Alex (33:02.34)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (33:22.148)

One last question I have from this paragraph and that is just you talk about like inward graces, how God changes you on the inside through his Spirit. And I'm wondering what inward graces do you see that have really matured, grown, come alive, manifested themselves in your grief or as a result of your grief?

Tim (33:43.078)

I think sympathy and compassion, very much so.

I would never have understood what it was to lose a child or even to suffer any really significant loss. You know, a year before Nick died, my dad had died, but it was just so different. He was old and full of years. You might say he wasn't that old. He was in his 70s. He was full of years. He had children. He had grandchildren. He had lived a life, and you know, he wanted to be with the Lord. So that was hard, but it didn't really prepare me for the loss of a child. But it was through that loss, that deeper loss, that I think I really started to grow

sympathy for other people. So I think God worked that within me for which I'm very, very grateful. And then I think you see it in this paragraph that my fear that I would become hardened or grouchy or somehow hold this against God or against the universe or something and allow this to make me a worse person instead of a better person. And I really saw this as God's opportunity to, again, not why God did it, but how God is going to use it was to shape my character, to make me more like Jesus and to grow in the

fruit of the Spirit. And I saw the same in my girls and in Aileen. I think all of them were they had to make that decision. How am I going to respond to this? Is this the end or, you know, am I going to just stop living and let myself wallow in sorrow? Or am I going to hold this against God and start becoming grouchy or angry at God? Or am I going to allow this to shape my character in positive ways? And I'm really grateful that I think all of them have really done that.

Alex (35:20.316)

Okay, will you share the last paragraph with us?

Tim (35:28.469)

Sure.

Tim (35:34.482)

I will look with longing to the day of Christ's return and with expectation to the day of resurrection. I will remain steadfast and immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord. I will forget what lies behind and strain forward to what lies ahead, always pressing on toward the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. I will lay aside every weight and sin that clings so closely and run with endurance the race that is set before me, looking always to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of my faith.

I will remain faithful until I have fought the good fight and finished the race and kept the faith. I will die as I have lived, a follower of Jesus Christ. Then by grace I will go to be with Jesus and go to be with Nick.

Brenda (36:21.792)

And that is chock full of scripture. All the promises of scripture, just one right after the other that shows that you are somebody who loves the scriptures, has had your heart and mind transformed by the scriptures. And that's just encouraging to see just all of those truths that come back out in this paragraph.

Alex (36:24.344)

Yes, yes.

Tim (36:27.295)

Yeah.

Tim (36:41.958)

Yeah, yeah, and ultimately I needed God Himself to interpret my suffering and to instruct me through it, and that meant I had to go to His Word and take my marching orders, if you will, from Him. And so, looking to those scriptures, there are so many more I could have pulled upon, but scriptures that really called me to see how others in scripture have suffered, how they've endured their times, and what God might be calling me to through it all.

Brenda (36:57.48)

Yes.

Brenda (37:12.564)

So do you think about the day that you get to see Nick? And I know it will pale in comparison to the day you get to see Jesus. And because Jesus came and died for your sins and for Nick's sins and your promise of resurrection, I mean, it's because of him you will be reunited. But I love that God's given us an imagination. And I wonder what you imagine that reunion being like, and what's the first thing you wanna tell him, or the first thing you wanna hear from him, or the first thing you want him to show you? Ha ha ha.

Tim (37:39.511)

Yeah, you know, I have thought about it and yeah, I think I want to... Okay.

I'm not convinced that time passes all that, that time passes in heaven at the same rate it passes here. So I kind of expect when I show up, Nick will say, oh, you're here too, or something along those lines. Like, it hasn't been 40 years in heaven as it's been 40 years here. I don't know that, but that's just kind of my, my conjecture that maybe it won't seem as long for him as it does for me. But yeah, I think mostly just, just catching up and expressing the things we maybe didn't express so clearly when we were here, just love and affection.

Tim (38:20.642)

all of that, looking forward to that and longing for that. Though I did preach that the text, you know, pressing on from Philippians, always pressing on toward the prize of the upward call and so on. I really was challenged in that as I preached it recently to make sure I continue to focus primarily on being reunited with Jesus or being united with Jesus in that way.

Obviously, I have a deep longing to see Nick and obviously those two things are completely bound up, right? We our future sinlessness is bound up with seeing Jesus Our future removal of our pain is bound up with seeing Jesus But you think about the Apostle Paul there was lots of things he wanted to be relieved of but ultimately his great desire Was to see Jesus so what I want to be careful of as I continue to progress through this is that I'm not looking more for the benefits of Jesus than I am for Jesus himself and

Brenda (38:51.722)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (39:16.912)

Seeing Nick is one of the benefits that comes with seeing Jesus, but I don't want to sort of shove Jesus aside to say, thanks for the gifts, but you, you know, you're sort of, I'll get to you later. So, I think that's a hard, hard thing to do, and I don't even know what's sin in it, but I just want to keep focusing on Christ and make sure that He's foremost in my mind, foremost in my heart, just as was the case for the Apostle Paul.

Alex (39:42.193)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (39:45.652)

Well, Brenda, do you have any more questions about that paragraph? I wanted to make a big picture comment.

Brenda (39:49.284)

No, I think it just speaks for itself. Honestly, I don't want to mess up a good thing here. It's beautiful. Yeah, such great reminders. And I just love, I did a version of this for myself in a very difficult situation in my own life. And I'm just really looking forward to going back and restating these kinds of truths to myself because the situation I'm in is also very long-term and doesn't seem to be going away quickly or hasn't up to this point.

Alex (39:54.395)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (40:19.138)

When we talk about, sometimes the hardest trials are not, the hardest trials are the longest trials. In your situation, it's like the hardest and longest. Together, it is truly a tribulation. I think just to have something like this to go back to, to aspire to, to remind ourselves of, to measure our growth by, and to cry out to God and the Holy Spirit, to once again

Alex (40:28.661)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (40:49.178)

suffer well, to grieve well, to be made useful, and our suffering is truly beautiful and I thank the call of every Christian.

Alex (41:00.056)

Tim, I wanted to ask you just a little how to.

because I want to encourage our listeners, I mean, you're a writer and you're a very good writer, and it could be really tempting to take your manifesto and just say, oh yeah, this is mine, mine too. But I do think as Brenda did, like there's just some real benefit in using your own words, developing your own language for this, putting the scriptures that encourage you in it. Could you give us any hints or tips or of how someone may do that?

Tim (41:35.03)

Yeah, I think start by copying and pasting it into a document if that's where you want to begin. And then, as you said, I think just start to substitute out things that don't really resonate with you, that sound like they come from somebody else's mouth instead of your own. And I would say speak it out loud. I think most writing is improved a lot as you as you hear it through your ear, not just kind of mull over it in your mind. So read it out loud and where it doesn't sound like something you would say or something that doesn't really

Alex (41:40.039)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (42:04.984)

heart then

Yeah, maybe substitute something out, something else in, and then make sure you're not saying things you don't mean or don't believe in. Um, you know, there, it is aspirational, so we won't believe in all of it equally all the time, but, um, yeah, I wouldn't make promises you don't intend to keep or anything like that and don't, um, set this trajectory, this manifesto, unless it really reflects things you actually intend to do and want to do, and really reflect your understanding of how to pass through your difficult time with joy and,

Alex (42:14.017)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (42:37.04)

that honors and serves God. So it's a template. You know, just take the idea, create your own manifesto from the get-go, or if this really does reflect you, then substitute out the names and use it as is.

Yeah, I think sometimes of, you know, something like praying through scripture, you're taking the scriptures and then you're making them your own. Right. And I think there's lots of things we can do like that in life where you take something else that's there and you kind of keep the core of it, but you really do personalize it. And I think that's good and appropriate with something like this.

Alex (42:57.46)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (43:10.679)

Yeah.

Brenda (43:11.188)

I think it can also just be a working document, right? Where, or it might be something you work on.

for a while and kind of shore up or it could just be something that you continue to go back to as you understand biblical aspirations as God continues to lay things on your heart or gives you language or understanding of where God wants you to be and where he's moving you to. So I think there's a definite doesn't have to be something stagnant it can be something very dynamic and I know for me when I did it I kind of went through like by faith I will accept Nick's death as God's will and by faith accept that God's will is always good and I was like what does that mean to me?

that mean to me? Like, can I say that? Do I believe that? Is there a different way that I would put that in my own words and that I would, you know, type something? And so I kind of went through it like that and that was really helpful because to your point, I think had I just sat down to try to write it, I would have felt a little lost in my thoughts and maybe not had as much direction. And now, like I said, I feel like I can go back and tweak it a little bit and add things and move things around. And even as my circumstance is changing or as your grief is growing and changing,

to this or redefine things as well.

Tim (44:21.47)

Yeah, now I think that's wise because grief is never static and we are never static, so we're constantly changing in our grief. We're new people every few years, you know, and so I think going back to it and seeing does it still reflect things? Have I matured in some ways or did I find some things there I said and didn't mean? It certainly could be a living document as well.

Brenda (44:44.156)

Well, that's all I have. Alex, if you got anything else you want to ask? Ha ha ha.

Alex (44:49.152)

Well, it is switching gears, but I think maybe I would like to ask one more question because we have talked not only to people who are suffering, but we also want to talk to those who are walking with those who are suffering. And so could you just share maybe a few things of how others have walked with you or ministered you in the season that have been meaningful? Maybe even what hasn't been helpful? Because we learned from that too.

or who is in a season of deep sorrow.

Tim (45:21.87)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, we have, as Christians, we have...

the Word of God at our beck and call so we can bring divine words to other people. And what a beautiful thing that we can just speak scripture to them and know that it doesn't really come from me. These are words that come from God. So every Christian should probably have enough knowledge of the Bible that you know which words are most appropriate to bring to people in their sorrow. Psalm 23 is always appropriate as one idea, but there are many others as well, many places you can go.

I often hear Christians say that Romans 8 28 is not a verse you should bring to people in their sorrow, that God is working all things for good. I found such comfort in that verse right from the very beginning. So I think you have to maybe know the person, you have to know whether that verse is helpful, maybe what their understanding of God's providence or sovereignty or something is, but man, I found it so helpful just to think, okay, God's involved in this. God is sovereign over life and death. It means He's sovereign over Nick's death. That means I can trust Him with it.

that he's going to bring good from it. Somehow, someday, I will see good from this even if it's in heaven and give praise and thanks to him. I would say if you're very close to a person who's going through a time of grief and loss

You'll probably observe that they become usually very incapacitated in their grief and they may need you to do some just very basic things for them. Just cooking, cleaning, shopping, those types of things and really trying to. They're carrying so much in their minds and so much in their hearts. They often can't do much else. So being willing and able to help them with those very basic needs, child care, driving kids around, all those sorts of things can be really, really huge.

Tim (47:11.794)

Um...

And then just prayer, not just prayer. Prayer is really, we have to believe in these times that prayer really, really matters, that God hears it and that God answers it. And my family can attest, there were some times we just knew we were being upheld by prayer. We don't know how we knew it, we just knew it, that God's people were praying and God was answering those prayers. And we just, we absolutely knew it in those moments, that the only reason we were upright, the only reason we were praising God, the only reason we were joyful, whatever it was,

us and God is hearing their prayers and answering them. So you can always bring scripture, you can always pray, you can always help.

Tim (47:53.022)

Oh, you asked about things that...

We should not do possibly or that were unhelpful. So I'd say don't abandon people. I think that's a temptation We we as I'd say Western Christians. We don't really know what to do in grief I don't think culturally we have clear paths to follow as they do in some other cultures and that's sort of been eroded over time People don't write cards much anymore. They don't send flowers I don't know whether to go to somebody's house or not whether to bring them a lasagna or not We just don't really know these things anymore But do something

Tim (48:25.116)

if that person is quite close to you, a member of your church or something. If the person lives in a fairly urban area, gift guards, Uber Eats, those sorts of things can be absolutely a tremendous blessing. And then a word for the person who's

going through the hard time. We talked already about your tendencies to sin, that you can be tempted to sin even in your grief. I think it's so important to believe the best about every person who says anything, brings anything, just to say within your own mind, I'm sure this person meant well, even if what they said was completely boneheaded and offensive or something else, to say I'm gonna receive that as kindness, I'm gonna receive that as love, and I'll be grateful for it

bit rather than to get all sulky and you can probably think of so many times in your own life you cringe to think about it but how many times you said the absolute wrong thing and you know we're all prone to that so just being willing in your sorrow to take whatever grace there is to be had and be thankful for it.

Alex (49:23.674)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (49:29.516)

Mmm. Yeah, that's really good.

Well, Tim, I just really appreciate you being here, but I also really deeply appreciate you being willing to share this deep, deeply personal season of sorrow. I'm gonna hold up the book for people who are watching Seasons of Sorrow, and we're really grateful. The manifesto is just one entry and so many entries that just speak directly to the hope and the comfort,

realness of Seasons of Sorrow. And so we appreciate you writing the book. We appreciate you being here. Where can people find you in this world of social media?

Tim (50:11.146)

Yeah, yeah, chalice.com is the place to begin. That's the website. And then beyond that, it's usually social media network slash chalice. So Twitter slash chalice or Instagram slash chalice, whatever. So an advantage of having a unique last name, not many people have claimed all the different handles yet, so I can usually have just the slash chalice, but the blog is a place to begin.

Alex (50:32.808)

Yes. The daily blog if people want to follow you.

Brenda (50:37.728)

Great.

Tim (50:40.81)

You got it, yep.

Brenda (50:42.024)

We'll put all that in our show notes, Tim. Thank you so much. God bless you and your family and your ministry, and we will look forward to that next book because I think there's another one coming as you walk through grief and we just get to continue to see you maturing in it through your blog but also maybe through another compilation of your blogs. And always just appreciate, I know, your time and your energy to come be with us and our audience today.

Tim (50:45.652)

Thank you.

Alex (50:51.69)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (51:08.054)

My pleasure.