Season 5 Episode 6: How can I suffer well and help others?

Brenda (00:04.982)

So Alex, we are in episode four of season five. We've been using this season to talk about suffering. We hope in a way that makes it, I don't know, maybe.

It won't make the pain go away for those who are in suffering, but maybe will help us grow through the pain. And that's kind of what we've been talking about. And so I just wanted to take a few minutes to recap where we've been, and then we'll move into where we're going today. We first talked about answering the question, why do I suffer? And we said that we suffer because of a result of the fall, living in a sin-fallen world.

and to be oriented in a world of pain, we needed what we called a robust theology of suffering, or a suffering that was strong enough to hold us, excuse me, a theology that was strong enough to hold us in our suffering. And then the second question we addressed is, where is God in my suffering? And we talked about how pain makes us feel isolated, abandoned, and even forgotten by God.

And we answered the where question with knowing God, establishing in our hearts the attributes of God so that we can trust him and in trusting him that we will know that he is present and that his promises are real and for us. And then the next episode, we answered the question, what is God up to in my suffering? To the best of our ability, because as we said, we can't answer all the nuances of that, but we do recognize that

Alex (01:40.066)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (01:44.68)

purpose in our pain and that purpose primarily is God drawing us into a deeper relationship with him and forming us into the kind of people he wants us to be. So that brings us to our final question today. We want to talk about what it looks like to what we are calling suffer well and how God uses the unwelcomed school of suffering to prepare us to walk with others.

Alex (02:13.286)

Yeah, when we talk about suffering, well, I think I come into this topic just with like a little bit of fear and trembling because I know that I don't want to add any more burden on people who are in a place of deep grief or suffering. And so hope we can handle this with care. And even as we don't want to burden people, we also want to give some handrails, so to speak, like just some things to grab onto that may feel like they are

orienting in a place where it feels like, and what am I supposed to do here? And so that's really what we're trying to do today because suffering well does not mean that we're not struggling. It doesn't mean that we're not grieving.

that it doesn't mean that it's not difficult. It doesn't mean that we plaster a smile on our face and act like it's not happening. Because as often as we wrestle with the questions that we've addressed in this season, that we grow to trust God despite our circumstances. And so we rarely suffer well. We rarely learn who God is without suffering well. And suffering well is simply the process of just taking our pain to God over and over again.

allowing him.

to change us through his divine comfort. So we wanted to give kind of a definition for what suffering well was, so that we kind of just, even just in the definition, dispel some of the myths of what suffering well is. So again, we're just saying it's the process of going to God over and over again, and just allowing him to change us through the process. One of my friends calls it laying on the operating table, and I think that's a good visual, is like laying down and letting him

Alex (04:00.204)

Thank you.

Suffering well often produces like a greater worship where when we suffer well We come to love and trust and obey God and it leads us into spiritual maturity I think most of us would say if we think about our story and we recognize the places in our story where we suffer we will see that in those times we've learned to trust God more and That God used those places in order to grow us

and we don't always see that growth while it's happening, we do see the seasons of suffering being the seasons of greatest growth.

Brenda (04:42.534)

That's good. What I hear you basically saying is that suffering well means we struggle well. You know, it's not the absence of struggle. I think it is the struggling well that creates our ability to suffer well. And you know, I think about this idea of suffering and growth because in my own life, I've always noticed like where I am in my suffering and where I am struggling with doubt and unbelief and all of these questions is kind of the distance between how far God wants

Alex (04:50.523)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (05:12.468)

right? He's growing me toward a deeper relationship. He's growing me toward trust. And so we can't see growth, but we can measure it. And I say that because I have some houseplants, you know, in my home and I can yell at them to grow and I can sit down, you know, and watch them intently to see if I can watch them grow. And I can't because you can't watch growth, but you can measure it. And when I think about measuring growth in the context of suffering, I was thinking about

Alex (05:27.481)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (05:42.388)

we had a history making frieze, right? It did so much damage. I know in Chattanooga it was really bad. I mean my mom lost plants she'd had for like 20 and 25 years. And we would say that those plants suffered and they were even really traumatized. I mean it was bad. And as spring approached, Paul and I were watching to see which plants had died because we wanted to pull them out, you know, and replace them and then which ones needed more time to show

Alex (06:00.099)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (06:12.288)

signs of life. And to be honest with you, as time went on, we got rather impatient, just thinking we're going to rip them all up. And we were darn near pulling, you know, up half those plants when my husband wisely decided to check with the local nursery. And that worker encouraged us to be patient and to look for the signs of growth. And those signs, we couldn't see it, but they could eventually be measured, he said, by whether

Alex (06:18.538)

Hmm.

Brenda (06:42.128)

stems and sprouting leaves. And so week after week, we waited and we watched, and we felt pretty discouraged still, Alex. We probably got to rip all these up and start over. And lo and behold, as spring came on, late spring, the plants began to show signs of life. Clearly, there was something that had been going on inside the plants and underneath the soil that we couldn't see.

Alex (06:52.002)

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brenda (07:06.846)

And after a long, cruel winter, spring had finally come, and then summer came, and now we even have blooms. And so that's what I think when I think about suffering well. I think it's slow. It may initially look like there's no life, but over time, we begin to green up again, and finally, we can even start producing some foliage and maybe even blossoming along the way.

Alex (07:33.279)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it makes me think. Oh.

Brenda (07:35.178)

So I would, yeah, go ahead.

Alex (07:38.286)

I like the illustration, one, because it shows that we need a lot of time to look at the effects of suffering and to see them produce growth in our lives. I also like the illustration because I think there is a place, and we talked about it a lot in season four with the common life struggles, that there's a place in suffering where we just rest.

we're just quiet. And so we don't want to suggest again that doing a podcast on suffering well it can feel like you need to do this, do this, do this. And we don't want to suggest that there's always a time to do that. But even with your illustration like the plants can't produce the growth unless there is a season of dormancy and a season of resting. And so I just want to say to anyone who's listening who's in a season of deep grief or suffering that you know

Brenda (08:17.473)

Yep.

Alex (08:38.02)

I hope that our words are encouraging, but if you're hearing us say do do, we're not saying do do, we're more saying rest in the truths that you probably already know and so we want this podcast to be a reminder of some of those truths.

Brenda (08:54.402)

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think it's also the plants are an illustration of how it may look like we're going backwards before we go forwards. And it's also true that my plants are going to go through winter again, Alex. Winter is not over because we're in the fall. And so they're going to go dormant again and then they're going to they're going to come back. But I think just like from the emergence of pain in our own lives, that we will notice a deeper, abiding trust in God as a result of our suffering if we suffer and struggle well.

Alex (09:06.482)

Yeah.

Alex (09:24.924)

Yeah.

So kind of the first handhold we want to give is just to remember that suffering well means holding on to our hope. And we want to define biblical hope as different from the hope that we tend to talk about in our daily conversation. And biblical hope is this confident expectation in God. And so we tend to throw the word hope around and like, I hope it doesn't rain. I, you know.

my girls are able to come home this weekend, but when we're talking about biblical hope, we're talking about that sureness or that certainty. It's believing God is who he says he is and that he will do what he says he's going to do. And so in times of pain, it's easy to assign to God expectations that he has not promised. And so biblical hope is holding on to the things that he says in

Alex (10:25.644)

he's going to do.

Brenda (10:27.922)

Yeah, and I think that if we're not careful here, we can allow our expectations.

which aren't always Biblical hoped who actually create more pain for ourselves and injure others. So I know you and I like to talk about big H hopes and little H hopes. And we say the big H hopes are what God says in his word. It's the certainty that we had. And just this morning I did a quick internet search and I found that researchers and theologians estimate anywhere from five to almost 9,000 promises in the Bible. That's a lot of big H hopes to hold on to.

Alex (10:46.236)

Mm.

Brenda (11:05.264)

If you're feeling like, I don't even know one, well, my goodness, there's five to 9,000 to hold onto. But the little age hopes, I think this is where we have to differentiate. Those are often good things, but they're more like our desires, our wants, our own personal dreams. And so we had just a few examples to illustrate this. A big age hope says,

Alex (11:10.154)

Wow.

Brenda (11:26.634)

God has promised to provide for me. Cause we can have out of those thousands, there's a lot of promises per provision, per, there we go. I'm getting it out.

Alex (11:35.582)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (11:38.458)

Little H Hope says, I hope I get the job I applied for. Right, it's very specific. And that's not a bad hope, but that's not a promise if you apply for a job that God's gonna give you that job. Big H Hope says, I know God loves me even though it doesn't feel like it right now. Because God may answer his prayers with a yes, no, or a wait. And so, whether or not our prayer gets answered the way we want to, we can know that he loves us and he's watching after us based on his promises.

Big H Hope knows his love never fails even in suffering, but Little H Hope says, I sure hope I don't have to suffer anymore. So.

We need to really root that big H hope in the promises of God. And we need to remind ourselves often that His promises are great and they're precious. And the reason they're so great and precious is because they're bought by the blood of our Savior, right? Jesus bought these promises on our behalf. And He is the only God who has humbled Himself to experience all of the trials and all of the

Brenda (12:48.592)

experience.

Alex (12:49.81)

Yeah, when you talk about...

Promises that makes me think about Pogrom's progress, that Christian as he's traveling on his journey, is locked in the prison of Doubting Castle. And while he's in prison, he stays there for a long time, before he remembers that he has the key to get out. And so he finally remembers, I mean, he's about to die, he's worn out, he's about to die, and he finally remembers that the key to get out of the castle is the promises of God.

opened the door. And so I think it's a good challenge for us to ask ourselves a question like do we even know the promises of God when you're sitting there saying five to nine thousand I'm thinking I might be able to say five or nine promises of God but I don't know if I know anywhere close to five thousand promises of God and so I think we are all a lot like Christian

Alex (13:51.276)

promises they're in us somewhere but they're not something that we keep at the forefront of our mind and so you know I think it'd be a great challenge for us even as we're in the scriptures to be on a hunt for the promises of God to be searching for them to be looking for them and to be storing them up because I know in times of struggle I fall back on what I already know I'm

Brenda (14:06.967)

Yeah.

Alex (14:21.196)

a lot of new things when I'm suffering. And so it's the challenge to store it up when the suffering is not as difficult and as deep.

Brenda (14:22.828)

Yeah.

Brenda (14:32.798)

Yeah, I like that. All right, so biblical hope, we say, is rooted in the promises of God, but biblical hope also keeps our eyes on an eternal perspective.

You know, think about the Apostle Paul after describing his own experience with intense suffering. He was reminding the Corinthians that they could endure their suffering story because they knew the end of the story. And so do we. Like we even know, we even have more information, if you will, more knowledge, more understanding about the end of the story. I love 2 Corinthians 4, 16 through 18. Paul says, therefore we do not lose heart.

yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day for our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us in eternal glory that far outweighs them all so we fix our eyes not on what is seen but on what is unseen since what is seen is temporary but what is unseen is eternal that makes for a great memory verse by the way Alex to have

Alex (15:36.859)

Yeah.

Remember it's my life verse that I picked in middle school? They see verse.

Brenda (15:43.298)

Oh, that's right. That's right. Yes. And I was marveling that you had a life first in middle school. Yeah. Yeah, it's so powerful and so true. Yes. Yeah. What foresight for a young person, truly an eternal perspective, a gift from God. Yeah, most young people. And even as we as we grow in our Christian walk, we have a really hard time thinking futuristically, we really want instant gratification and want to live in the here and now and see it all here.

Alex (15:50.458)

Me too. And that those were my life first in middle school. Yeah. No.

Brenda (16:13.254)

now, right?

Alex (16:14.18)

Mm-hmm.

Well, I'm not sure I had an eternal perspective as a middle schooler, but maybe I had a little bit of insight that I would need one. You know, I think this is why I love to teach the grand narrative so much is because I think that we all live in a very small story. And these verses and really suffering remind us that we if we don't live in a bigger story,

Brenda (16:19.214)

Ha ha ha!

Brenda (16:25.506)

There you go.

Alex (16:45.124)

God's big story where there is this future hope of final restoration, we're gonna be crushed. And so I love this example that Charles Spurgeon gives. He's kind of talking about living in a bigger story and how we so often forget that we are living in this bigger story that we're just moving through this life on earth. And he says, suppose a man was going to New York to take possession of

of course in those times his carriage should break down a mile before he got to the city to take possession of his inheritance, which obliged him to walk the rest of the way. What a fool we should thank him if we saw him wringing his hands and blubbering out all the remaining mile. My carriage is broken, my carriage is broken." And I love that because I can just picture myself so often living in my small story wringing my hands.

that my carriage is broken, when I only have a mile to go, and all will be redeemed, all will be healed, all will be made new, and I'm just so stuck in the here and now of what my daily struggles are that I forget to lift my eyes, that I'm on a journey, and the journey is to the eternity with Jesus, the eternity with no more tears, and so I just love that.

Brenda (17:53.41)

Yeah.

Alex (18:14.904)

picture. If that one doesn't resonate with you, I have another one that's also helped me and it comes from a book called Peacemaking Women that was written years ago out of the peacemakers movement and this quote doesn't seem like it would come out of it but it has helped me a lot and it's this metaphor of the ocean and they say that eternal life is like a vast ocean filled with tiny droplets. Of all the uncountable droplets in the ocean, only one

Brenda (18:19.558)

All right.

Alex (18:44.884)

represents the life on this earth.

The entire vast ocean is filled with pain-free, suffering-free living, save for that one tiny drop. This life is our only opportunity to suffer and to grieve. And then they ask this question, are you making the most of your one opportunity to suffer? And there are times, there were definitely many days when that idea, like just one drop in the ocean, that's all this is. It's just one drop.

What am I going to do with this drop? That would spur me on to just keep going. And again, not keep going and doing wonderful things and big public things for Christ, but sometimes just putting one foot in front of the other and speaking kindly to my children, you know, or doing a load of laundry and getting a meal prepared. Like those were the suffering well things oftentimes in the moment. And so I don't ever want to communicate to people that

this big glorious suffering well. Suffering well is often usually very quiet, private, often mundane choices we make in the day to day.

Brenda (20:03.258)

Yeah, well I think that's a great reminder. I think about the scripture that says it's been granted to you to suffer, and just this whole idea of granting that it's a gifting, and so often we don't see it as a gift, but again I think as we all look at our lives we can see that the greatest times of growth have come as a result of some sort of suffering, and God meeting us and comforting us and us walking through it.

Alex (20:30.782)

Yeah, that's good.

Brenda (20:33.066)

Well, let's turn the corner just a little bit, Alex. I mean, there's so much more, of course, that we could say, and we hope that this is almost just a primer that people can build on and begin to layer, put layers to their own robust theology. But let's talk about how suffering well prepares us to walk with others, because we are, in fact, called to be comforters. And as long as we live in what the scripture calls this present evil age, we're going to endure hardships

And we're going to be called to walk along side others who are impacted as well. And a verse that we want to take a little time to unpack is second Corinthians one, three through five. It says, praise be to God, to the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the father of compassion and the God of all comfort.

who comforts us in our troubles so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God. For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ.

So what does it mean to be a... I'm sorry, yeah, go ahead. I was just gonna say, so let's unpack this and talk about what it means to be a good comforter.

Alex (21:44.434)

Yeah, so the first thing... Yeah, go ahead.

Alex (21:51.578)

Yeah, the first thing I hear is that we have to be willing and able to receive the comfort of God and the comfort of others, the comfort of bounds, but we have to be able to receive it. And that's sometimes harder than we think it's going to be because sometimes when we're suffering, I think we even push away from comfort sometimes. But there's something about comfort that changes

Alex (22:21.632)

is the soft side of God, I guess. And when we allow God to comfort us in that way, I think it deepens our trust in Him and it makes us love Him all the more.

but it's hard to do sometimes. And so I think sometimes, I like this phrase that sometimes we borrow hope from other people, that sometimes the way that we receive comfort is that when it's hard for us to have faith and to believe who God is, we lean on another person's faith and we borrow their hope.

Brenda (22:54.766)

Thanks for watching!

haven't already shared this, but if I have, it's worth sharing again. But as I was reading the book Mirrors of Glory, which shows like different pictures of God, he talks about God being a father and being a mother. And when we think about comfort, I love this because he would talk about when he would fall down and skin his knee and he would go to his father, who was a doctor, and he would go into his doctor and his doctor, his dad would put his knee under the faucet and clean it out and

Alex (22:59.83)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (23:26.028)

that on it, you know, and blow on it and put a bandaid and send it back out. And he said, and it worked great. He said, but when I would come to my mom with a skinny, she would scoop me up in her rocking chair, she would hold me and rock me and kiss my head and kiss my boo-boo and then send me back to play.

Alex (23:40.694)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (23:45.81)

And I thought that was just such a great picture that, you know, just again, as we receive comfort from God, He might look like a father in some instances, He may look more like a mother in other instances. But I just thought that was a beautiful picture of how we can receive comfort and the comfort that we've even known, and then how we can give that to other people. But the next thing we learn from this verse is really we are to imitate God by walking alongside others in hard times. And

Alex (23:56.938)

Hmm.

Brenda (24:15.394)

You know, it's not just to do it, but how we do it. God is full of compassion and mercy. And you know, I think about just meeting with people who are suffering as a result of even their own sin, right? And it can be easy to have kind of that attitude like you're here and you deserve to be here. But regardless of the suffering, even if it's a result of somebody's sin, they really do need compassion and mercy. Now they may need a little bit more fatherly care as well,

Alex (24:44.486)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (24:45.548)

comfort. But I love the message of Urgence says that God comes with healing counsel. He is he's present, he shows up and he applies the balm of his words. And you know for me I found that the more deeply I suffer, the more I'm able to sit with others in deep suffering. I like to say wherever you felt the most pain is your platform to preach and reach others. And really before I knew the deep

Alex (24:52.543)

Hmm.

Brenda (25:15.328)

own suffering. If I'm honest, I really had a hard time sitting with other people. I found myself always wanting to jump to encouragement or a call to change because I was uncomfortable and I wanted to rush them through so I wouldn't have to be uncomfortable. And that's one thing you know I always love. I always say God is of course a better parent, a better friend, a better spouse than we are because one, He will allow us to suffer when it's good for us and two, He will sit with us in our

Alex (25:19.839)

Hmm.

Alex (25:25.869)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (25:31.85)

Yeah.

Brenda (25:45.268)

pain and not rush us through so it can get the maximum. You know sort of like if you have to pay if you have to suffer then get the maximum benefit from your suffering and God is patient and kind and willing to do that so often when we may not be.

Alex (26:00.191)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good.

And I think about that your suffering is your biggest platform. I don't want us to communicate that when we comfort others with the comfort we've been given, that we have to experience exactly what someone else has gone through. I think we need to recognize that there are these common demand struggles that we all have. And so maybe my physical pain is not like someone else's physical pain in the specific, but it's a common demand struggle.

loss of all different kinds like abandonment or rejection or anxieties or our fears, conflict in relationships like these things are common demand struggles that we can comfort others in even if the particulars are not the same. So I don't want that to stop anyone from reaching out to share comfort with someone else. And then the last thing I would say is that we can help other

Alex (27:02.28)

through other things like beauty, relationships, and other provisions.

Brenda (27:09.802)

Yeah, and I really don't want us to miss this point because this is verse five, and I think that sometimes this can get glossed over. It says, For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ. And everything we are and everything we have comes from Him. So God uses His word to bring us hope.

Brenda (27:39.776)

of a hardship. I was talking to a dear friend of mine who recently just filed for divorce and in the midst of so much pain she was experiencing such mercy from God. She was recounting to me just the counselors and comforters who were supporting her in this really hard time and decision. People she had never expected were like hang with her. She's seen God move mightily in the heart of a prodigal child. She's had this child who's just been on the fringe and

Alex (27:52.415)

Hmm.

Alex (28:02.038)

Hmm.

Brenda (28:09.656)

struggling so much and as a result of all this is asking for help now and she's also experiencing God's abundant provision. I mean Alex she went in for a job interview they offered her the job with the salary she said yeah I really want the job but I need $20,000 more than you're offering not $2,000 $20,000 more

Alex (28:17.799)

Mm.

Alex (28:32.266)

Hahaha!

Brenda (28:34.578)

And she said to me, Brenda, no one offers someone with a high school diploma $85,000 in this town. And then she added two very powerful words, but God.

Alex (28:42.313)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (28:47.25)

Right, and so again, you know, I think we have to remember that suffering does have that ability, like you said, to shrink our world down to the size of our pain. We just live in the fall and we can't see anything else. We can't see what God is doing, and I think one of the reasons it's important to have people walk with us is so they can gently remind us and help us see the mercy and grace of God that is all around us even while we're suffering.

Alex (28:57.32)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (29:14.666)

Mm.

Yeah, and that's a tricky thing to walk, isn't it? Like when we want other people to be able to sometimes borrow our hope and also see through our eyes what else is going on, but that can be a tricky conversation. We don't want to, the Proverbs says, so it sings songs to a broken heart. And so I think it takes a lot of wisdom to do that. And we talked a lot about this walking with people in personal ministry in season three.

if our listeners haven't already heard, we unpack what it means to show up and shut up and speak up and how to do that wisely. And so if you haven't heard that, check that out. We hope that brings some nuance to what it's like to walk with people in suffering and how we minister one on one. We wanted to also give maybe some practical tips on covering others in suffering. So what do

Brenda what's first

Brenda (30:17.142)

Yeah, well, I was thinking about this whole idea of, you know, don't pour salt in somebody's wound. Because the one thing we know we don't want to do, like you might not know how to show up and make somebody suffering better or to ease their suffering, but for goodness sakes, don't show up and make it worse, right? If nothing else. So one of the ways that we can make it worse is if we use our suffering story to show the perfect ending in an untimely way.

Alex (30:22.246)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (30:47.896)

And this happened recently I was talking with two mothers who were describing the pain of having adult children who had substance abuse issues and All of a sudden Alex a third mother appeared on the scene with her glory story

Alex (31:03.37)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (31:04.502)

And she burst into the conversation announcing, ladies, never give up. My daughter got clean last year after umpteen years, and she's walking with Jesus, and she's leading other people to Jesus. And you know, everything's great and wonderful.

Alex (31:13.516)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (31:21.074)

Now, don't get me wrong, this was a wonderful news and a wonderful story, but it was really delivered at the wrong time. Because the scriptures say, we weep with those who weep, and we rejoice with those who rejoice. But we don't want to rejoice with those who weep, right? And so, the other weeping mamas were actually not encouraged in that moment by her happily ever after story.

Alex (31:27.772)

Yeah.

Brenda (31:51.068)

actually injured by it. And I just felt, I felt myself just physically, I felt myself cringe. Like, how do I like rejoice with this woman but also just recognize that these two other women are living in the depths of so much pain?

Alex (31:57.875)

Yeah.

Brenda (32:06.258)

So we need to be sensitive as we comfort others who are still in tender places. We need to meet them in their pain first and then move them toward the comfort of Christ because I think we can get so excited sometimes about what God is doing in our story and that's great and that's beautiful and there was there was a place for that woman to share her story with these mamas.

Alex (32:14.095)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (32:26.774)

But that just wasn't the time and place because she had not entered in or moved into gauge where their hearts were or to grieve with them and lament with them before she gave them hope.

Alex (32:36.59)

Yeah, yeah and I think there's like this, there's almost this sense of shame when you're still sitting in your suffering story and someone else is in their triumph and victorious story of like, what am I doing wrong?

Brenda (32:47.519)

Yeah.

Alex (32:50.81)

Why can't I have that outcome? So I think it does take a lot of wisdom. It made me think the other day, yeah, I'm pretty sure this is the way it happened. I was sitting with a woman who's struggling with chronic pain and she has young children. And I remember sharing with her where my children are with it now and how it's affected them. But I was thinking while you were telling

Brenda (32:53.472)

Yes.

Alex (33:20.764)

story why'd I share that but um now I'm remembering she asked me like I didn't share that part of the story as my triumphant perfect ending story she said how is this affecting your children like now that they're growing like how do you see and I was able to share with her a little bit of a happy ending that my children look back and don't even remember me being in pain when they were little and that's wonderful and I think because it was something that she

she texted me later of just how much hope she's clinging to because of me sharing that. But I don't think I would have shared any of that if she hadn't asked that specific question. And so I do think there are times where people need to know, and that was of course after an hour of sitting with her just really relating to her suffering that even prompted her to ask the question. And so I hope what was happening there

Brenda (33:56.15)

Yeah.

Alex (34:20.504)

identified with. We both understood each other's pain so well that she was ready to receive hope.

Brenda (34:29.182)

Yeah, no, that's so good. Thank you for sharing that. I think the key there is just what you said, it's listening to the person entering in, weeping with them, and then either letting them ask or allowing the Holy Spirit to lead you when it's appropriate to share what God has done in your story, which is oftentimes a great thing to share, but we just wanna be sensitive.

Alex (34:52.292)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (34:55.014)

So, you know, we talk about don't use your suffering story to rush in and show the perfect ending, the triumphant ending, as you said, but we also could fall into another ditch and that's don't wait until your suffering story has a perfect ending to share what God is doing.

I know in my own suffering story, I kept telling God, you know, as soon as it was over, as soon as he wrapped it up with a nice little bow on top, as soon as I had my happily ever after, then I would be delighted to share all he's done for me and my circumstances. And then I could actually be useful in helping other people. But my suffering story, like many people's, you know,

Alex (35:30.346)

Hahaha

Brenda (35:41.62)

has been going on for years and continues to go on. And I began to realize that it was actually very encouraging to people, maybe even more encouraging, to meet me in my story and to hear and see how Jesus is moving me to greater trust in real time.

So, you know, we just, we don't need to be at the end of our story to be useful. I think we just need to be struggling well, and that kind of goes back to we also need to be honest that we are wrestling well, right? That we're suffering well because we're struggling well, and I think that's what makes us also relatable. Because I think sometimes, like the woman who came up, when you skip and you go straight from, it was a disaster to everything,

great and Jesus has done all this great.

the person doesn't have a chance to see that process. And so it almost to your point is like, well, goodness, like they just blinked and got there. They said a prayer. I've been praying and fasting for 20 years, you know? And so just missing, I think, I guess I would just say, I think it's really important whether we're sharing our story because we have come through it, or we're sharing our story as we're going through it, that we really do talk about the process and the ups and downs and the hardships that it takes and the growth and where God is and what He's done

Alex (36:43.319)

Right, exactly.

Brenda (37:03.628)

along the way. There's not like some magic dust, you know, that got thrown on it.

Alex (37:09.126)

Yeah, that's good. Well, I hope.

This episode on how we can suffer well and how we can help others do the same is encouraging. As we said, I hope it gives just a few little handholds when you feel like you're in the freefall of suffering. I hope that this whole season, I know it's been hard to talk about suffering. One, because we don't want to think about it, but two, because we don't ever want to

Alex (37:43.252)

of deep grief and suffering. And so I hope that these podcasts and the questions that we've tackled have been helpful, that the guests that we've brought on and them sharing their stories in ways that they've found comfort and suffering have encouraged our listeners. And we also want to mention that if anyone wants to do further study, a few years ago we did an online class called Real Life Discipleship and we talked a lot about

suffering in that class and so that would be a great way to kind of further your study if you'd like and it's on our website knownministries.org and so we appreciate you listening.