Season 5 Episode 2: Where Is God In My Suffering?

Brenda (00:05.19)

Well, Alex, we are continuing our journey through the topic of suffering. And today we're, um, going to be talking about episode two, but last week, eh, can I start over? It's not last week. It's last episode. I'm just gonna start the whole thing over again. Okay. Cut to last time. Yeah. Okay. All right. Here we go. Three, two, one.

So Alex, we're continuing our journey through the topic of suffering. In our last episode, we attempted to answer the question, why do we suffer? And that was a big question to take on. And we certainly didn't have all the answers, but we did conclude that suffering is an inevitable part of living in a fallen world. And we also talked about how suffering can really tempt us to fear, doubt, and even grow bitter towards God.

Alex (00:42.898)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (00:57.387)

Yeah, Brenda, these questions like why God, how long, oh Lord, they're questions that we hear in the lament Psalms and they're not wrong questions when they're done as lament. And when we say lament, I would say that means we do them Godward. But I think when we turn our back on God and they become a demand or...

we forget who he is and so we're kind of saying them with our backs towards him. They can become dangerous questions.

Brenda (01:29.458)

Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that illustration. Like, are we asking those facing forward? Are we asking those with backs against God? I think that's a great visual for me. Well, one thing we do know is that Job, the whole book of Job, Job wants to know why he's suffering. And that why is so important, because, you know, when we suffer, we often don't feel God, right? And we don't think he cares. And it's, it's interesting to note, though, that

Alex (01:35.652)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (01:59.332)

speak to Job, he basically says, hey Job, look around at all I've made. What do you understand? What do you really understand? Right? And he tells him you don't need to know more about your suffering. You need to know more about me and my relationship to you. You need to know that I love you and I'm working through your pain and suffering to accomplish things I cannot explain to you because even if I did explain it to you, you wouldn't understand. So at the end of Job, God is basically saying, trust me.

Brenda (02:28.814)

And I think this just illustrates our inability, Alex, as finite creatures to comprehend the infinite reality of what God is up to. And I was thinking the other day about my grandson, Parker, who protest every time we put him in the car seat. He's almost six months old and he pitches a fit, as a lot of children too. But we don't stop and say, hey, to a six month old, I'm gonna tell you all the reasons why you need to be in this car seat. Because even if we did, he wouldn't understand.

Alex (02:44.121)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (02:58.808)

and yet we do it for his safety and for what's good for him. And so I think that's, we have to remember that when we talk about this area of suffering. You know, Paul and I went to see the movie Sound of Freedom this weekend, and it's a movie about the rescue of children from sex trafficking. And I have to say, a movie like that will leave you asking, God, where are you?

Alex (03:02.125)

Yeah.

Brenda (03:22.238)

And I think the only way our faith is going to stay intact in the face of that level of evil and pain is To have a robust theology of suffering and we talked about a robust theology as being a strong A theology that can hold our pain and we're gonna have to know what the Bible says about suffering in light of who God is

Alex (03:42.003)

Yeah, so like you said today we're gonna look at the question, where is God in my suffering? And we believe that where God is related to who God is and so we're gonna unpack that a little bit. One of the most precious promises in scripture is that God promises his presence, he promises to be with us. And scripture also says he draws near to us when we're brokenhearted. But I think what happens is that when we experience pain and suffering,

believe that he's forgotten us, he's abandoned us, he's far away from us.

Brenda (04:16.706)

Hmm

I was thinking just this week I talked to a lot of different people, but somebody in an ordinary situation and then somebody in an extraordinary situation, because both can bring us to this question of where you got my daughter who has the six-month-old, quit her job to be a stay-at-home mom. And of course, finances are really tight on one income. And a few weeks ago, the transmission on their only good car, the one that they didn't need to crash, crashed. And it cannot be, you know, it was, it couldn't be repaired. It was going to have to be replaced.

Alex (04:37.335)

Mm.

Brenda (04:48.428)

And it was just hard for her to not question God's timing and his care and his provision, right? But then there was also the mama that I counseled who learned that her child had been sexually molested by her father. And sitting with this mother and witnessing her pain was also so painful for me. I just couldn't imagine, you know, what it would be like to be in her shoes. And of course she was asking, where was God? And Alex, if I'm honest, you know, I was struggling with the same question.

Alex (05:00.527)

Mmm.

Brenda (05:18.389)

Like even doing this lesson, there is just that sense of like, God, where are you?

Alex (05:24.109)

Yeah.

I think it's a great point too, Brenda, that you're making that we're going to struggle with that question in our own lives and we're going to struggle with that question as we watch other people suffer or we sit with other people and are suffering and we don't need to be surprised by the question because pain tests our faith. It is going to make us go back and think about what we believe to be true and that's nothing new. God knows that we're frail. He knows that we're fallen.

Brenda (05:38.015)

Yes.

Alex (05:54.769)

and he gives us a lot of biblical examples of others who have struggled to find God in their suffering. I'm always grateful for the Psalms and all the examples of just honest, gut level, you know, suffering that's expressed there. Psalm 10, Lord, why do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble? Psalm 13, how long, oh Lord, will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me?

Psalm 88, I cry to help Lord in the morning my prayer comes before you. Why Lord do you reject me and hide your face from me? It's interesting that all of those Psalms have that theme of like God is hidden, he is moved away, he is not there. And so I think our doubts, our questions, our concerns are just a normal part of our suffering and in some ways I think they are what makes

Like we already have this difficult situation and then we find ourselves in this place where doubt and questions are piled on top of that. But I want us to remember that wrestling with God as a believer is not necessarily a sign of unbelief, but it's really an act of desperate faith. We're grappling with a God who feels far away because we expect Him to be with us. So there's already a basis of faith there even in our questions.

Brenda (06:57.803)

Yes.

Alex (07:24.509)

So it is good to remember that in our struggles, we can move either closer to him or farther away from him. Like we can push away. We can, I feel like sometimes I go away and pout like I just leave me alone until this is over because I'm kind of mad at you that you're doing this to me. So I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna push back. I'm just gonna push away.

Brenda (07:48.074)

Yeah, it reminds me of the story and the gospels. I think it was one of the parents who brought their child that Jesus was going to heal. And the father says, I believe, but help my unbelief. You know, and I think that's where we find ourselves a lot of times in suffering is, Lord, I believe I do believe. But God helped my unbelief. So there's such a tension there.

Alex (08:01.039)

Hmm.

Brenda (08:14.402)

You know, I think when we look at the Bible, we see a lot of people whose faith has been shaken by adversity. That's one of the things I love again about the scripture is just the honesty.

But we also see them restored or their faith, their doubts alleviated or their trust built up as they remembered who God is. And that's why we keep, we're gonna keep coming back to this theme when we say, where are you God? We have to know who God is. So I've been in the prophets a lot. I do a three-year Bible reading. Two-thirds of the Bible is in the Old Testament, which means there's a lot of reading of the prophets. But the thing that has really struck me as

Alex (08:47.538)

Oh

Brenda (08:54.228)

feel abandoned by God. Like over and over again we see this theme and them struggling, these men who are voice pieces for the Lord, but then we also just see how once they remember God's character and promises or once God reveals himself to them, then they're back on mission and ready to speak truth about him and walk in that.

And then I'm also just reminded of Naomi, who lost her husband and sons, and she basically tells her daughters-in-law the Lord's hand has turned against her. And really, I think she's an example we can see in the scriptures where suffering and hardship really brought about bitterness. But in the end, she praises God because he redeems her story. And she can then see he was orchestrating it all along. And so, again, I just think we need to look to the examples,

Alex (09:27.371)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (09:46.512)

scriptures, we all have great comfort as we see all of these characters that move from doubt to trusting God. So that kind of leads to the next question, Alex, is how do we get there? How do we get to a place where we trust?

Alex (10:01.711)

Yeah, and I think what we're going to argue today is that the key to trusting someone is knowing them. So when we really know God's character, we trust that he's going to be there for us in suffering. We trust that in his love and his goodness and his faithfulness, he's going to do the things he promised to do for us. So we believe, we choose to believe that he will draw near to us. He will not forsake us. He will give us comfort because that's who we know him to be.

Brenda (10:29.458)

Yeah, I think we can understand a little bit of this as we look at even human relationships in our lives.

Alex (10:35.22)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (10:36.35)

You know, hopefully we all have someone we consider safe, and I know that there's those people who may not, but if you have someone you consider safe, then this is a person or people that you can trust. And you think about why do you trust them? Well, because we grow to trust them because we know them. They've proven themselves to be trustworthy through their words and actions. And I feel this way honestly about my husband, who I've been married to for 33 years. I have no doubt that he'll care for me because I know him.

and he's a man of his word and he has proven himself to be faithful to me, Alex.

Alex (11:09.593)

Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, and so we do that. We remember that proving when we're in times of pain and struggle because I think we have to focus on who the person is and not what our circumstances are. Because when we suffer, we're going to ask God all the questions. And I think what we realize is in those times of pain, we can't see God.

Brenda (11:28.993)

Yeah.

Alex (11:40.325)

him, he doesn't feel close to us. And so that's the times that we have to pull back and we have to rely on what do we know about him.

is he done in the past? What is his character? And then we trust who he is and the promises that he's made to us. So today what we want to do is we want to highlight three aspects of the character of God that we really want people to be drawn back to in times of suffering. We feel like these are three very important characteristics of God. We addressed them in another podcast in season one and

and today we want to apply them specifically to suffering. So we want to talk about the sovereignty, wisdom, and love of God. And we'll probably put a link to that episode from season one in the show notes. But we return to these qualities because as we unpack the question, where is God in my suffering, the sovereignty, wisdom, and love of God are going to become important parts of the questions we're asking.

Brenda (12:44.894)

Absolutely. And we talked about this and thought about this. And the reason they're so important is because if he's not one of these things or all of these things, then he is not God. So if God is not sovereign over suffering, then his power is limited. If God is not loving over suffering Alex, then we said he is cruel. And if God is not wise over suffering, then he is arbitrary. Right?

Alex (12:58.034)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (13:14.891)

just willy-nilly.

And we illustrated these qualities with a perfect triangle. We have a little handout that we can also repost. A triangle has three 60 degree angles and if one side is larger or smaller then it's no longer equal, right? So if we view one of God's attributes out of balance with the others, most likely what's gonna happen is our view of him will be distorted and then he's gonna cease to be the God of the Bible and he becomes a God of our own imagination, our own making. And as you said earlier, this is just gonna,

Alex (13:30.802)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (13:46.56)

earlier this is just going to produce even more pain in our hearts right it's like the suffering we're going through is hard enough but now our view of God is skewed and so we will not find comfort there it's gonna it's gonna make it a lot harder so I think what we should do is break down these attributes and talk about how they relate to suffering

Alex (13:58.914)

Right.

Alex (14:07.575)

Yeah, so we're going to start with sovereignty. It's a big word and sometimes hard to understand, but sovereignty, sovereign simply means absolute rule over everything. So that includes our enemies, our three enemies, the world, the flesh and the devil. So God rules over all the events of the world, all people of the world at all times and in all places. With our flesh, he knows all of our sins before we commit them. And he knows how and when

we will die, he knows what's going to happen to our physical bodies. And then he rules over the devil and all the forces of darkness. And so it's good for us, I find myself sometimes just reminding myself of all the things that God is in charge of when I'm questioning is there a plan or is there a purpose to this suffering. The hard thing about the sovereignty of God is that we have to

Alex (15:07.469)

bad and good things. Now we don't believe that God's the author of evil but one of the quotes that kind of orients me is Johnny Erickson Tata who was a quadriplegic for most of her life. She says God allows what he hates to accomplish what he loves and it's just one of the most orienting ideas to me because somehow and in some way it reminds me

that for God's purposes, even though he was not the originator or author of evil, he allows or he ordains my suffering to accomplish his purposes. In history and in our own stories, his purposes are going to go forward.

Brenda (15:55.198)

I think sometimes I can see that.

better on a historical perspective, right, as I'm looking back, but when you're living it, it's a lot harder to grasp. Like, oh, this is his story for me, history, you know, that he's writing. I personally find the sovereignty of God to be one of the most comforting, but also one of the most confounding aspects of God's character. I love a quote myself by theologian R.C. Sproul. He basically says, either God rules every molecule in the universe, or there's something out there greater than God.

Alex (15:59.055)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (16:26.972)

And the only thing that could frighten me more than God's in control of everything is that there's something out there greater than God and God's not in control, right? So if God's not in absolute control, it means there's really no guarantee, Alex, of His present or future promises for us either. And I was reminded about a week ago in my quiet time in a very personal way about God's sovereignty over everything. Someone I love is having to face some pretty tough consequences for their choices.

Alex (16:34.316)

Right.

Brenda (16:57.092)

repercussions, you know, facing them. And I was asking, like, God, where are you? You could have intervened and stopped all this because, you know, a lot of times when something happens to one person, there's a ripple effect of suffering to other people too, right? It's like I'm suffering because you did something, not even because I did something or because I live in a sin-fallen world. And the next morning, I was actually going through the book of Ezekiel in my morning divos and I kept reading this one little phrase, the Sovereign Lord says, and I've been reading

Alex (17:11.865)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (17:27.412)

And interestingly, the book of Ezekiel is specifically about God's judgment over Israel, the surrounding nations, and Jerusalem. So out of curiosity, you know, in other words, they're facing their consequences. I'm praying for somebody who's facing their consequences, and I'm wondering where is God? And so out of curiosity, I looked up that phrase, and Alex, it's used 217 times in the book of Ezekiel. But God answered my where. Like where are you, God?

Alex (17:49.867)

Wow.

Brenda (17:57.092)

He is the sovereign Lord. And I felt like God was just saying to me, I know your friend. I know their actions and I have ordained their consequence. There is purpose in it. Just trust me.

Alex (17:57.543)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (18:10.326)

But honestly, knowing God is in control is only really comforting to me when I consider alongside his other attributes of wisdom and love. Again, we said if God is missing any of these components, then he's gonna be cruel arbitrarily or limited in power. So if he's got power, but he's cruel and arbitrary, that doesn't bring me a lot of comfort. And if he's only sovereign and in control,

and distance. But in the book of Ezekiel, we see God even go into exile with his people to continually offer a way back to him of repentance. And so I'm reminded that there is no place God will not go and no length he will not go to be with us and bring us back to himself because he is not only in control but he is wise and loving as well.

Alex (19:04.551)

Yeah, so we're going to talk about how wisdom plays into this because for some people maybe that seems like a strange one to put on our three-legged stool here. But, so let's define wisdom first. So wisdom, J.I. Packer defines wisdom as the power to see and the inclination to choose the best and highest goal together with the surest means of attaining it. And I know we've talked

Alex (19:34.365)

talks about the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God. And then Paul also says, how unsearchable are your judgments and your ways past finding out? And I think, yeah, exactly. He's just echoing Jeb, right? You can hear it, because he certainly knew his Hebrew scriptures. And I think what he's pointing us back to is like, we have to trust that God is wise, even when we don't understand his wisdom.

Brenda (19:45.87)

Takes me back to Job. Right? Yeah, you hear the voice of Job. That's right.

Brenda (20:03.254)

That's right.

Alex (20:04.565)

our wisdom which is very finite because we're rarely going to be able to see all that God is doing in our suffering. You know someone once said God's doing a thousand different things in his suffering and to be able to think that the thousand different things he's doing are all wise. They're all the best possible way to accomplish them and for the best and highest goal. So there's just a part of this of his wisdom that we have to hold on to and trust because

Brenda (20:15.856)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (20:34.525)

we're not going to understand his purposes fully until our final reconciliation and restoration with him. But I love this quote by Tim Keller. He says, God will only give you what you would have asked for if you knew everything he knows. One day we will see that we would have chosen the exact events of our lives to bring us to him and to make us more like him. And I know

Alex (21:05.066)

When we are in the midst of suffering, it is very hard to agree that we would choose the things that God is choosing and I know even more.

that there have been places where I've sat with women in my office and I have said, Lord, there had to be a better way to do this. There's no way, this is the best way to accomplish these purposes. This kind of suffering cannot produce the good that it is just hard to see and hard to believe. And so this is one of those verses, Romans 11, that I return to a lot that I am just not always gonna understand God's wisdom.

Brenda (21:46.03)

So good, it just reminds me of the cross as well, right? That Jesus asking for that cup to be taken, but like Lord, if there's another way. And yet that was the wisest plan was that way. Okay, well, that's, wow, that's a lot. I feel like we could just stop right now and we'd have enough to chew on for quite a bit. But we don't wanna leave our triangle lopsided Alex and leave people with the distorted view of God and suffering. So let's talk about perfect love.

Alex (21:54.381)

Mm.

Brenda (22:15.082)

Um, perfect love is the love that sacrifices everything for our highest good. And of course we see that displayed the best on the cross. God sent his son to us. He did not sacrifice his son and then leave us and he left his spirit with us. And because of his great love and sacrifice, we can be certain of the where question right here and right now, whether you see him, whether you hear him, whether you feel him or not.

Alex (22:44.056)

Yeah.

We often hear people say this kind of glibly, like God is good all the time and all the time God is good. And that can be really hard to say when we're suffering. It's easy to say when things are going well, but it's really hard to say in our suffering. But if we believe that God is good and that he loves us, we have to trust that perfect love is accomplishing his purposes for our good, even when we don't feel like it. And it reminds me of what you said about your grandson in his car seat.

The picture I always have in my mind is holding one of my children down, removing a splinter from her foot, you know, and the child is screaming and just, mommy, just stop, I don't want it. And me realizing if the splinter stays in the foot, then an infection is going to follow and it has to come out and the child would just much rather not experience the pain of this. But I'm making a decision that she doesn't

understand for her good and in her finite wisdom as a child she can't see what's coming and I can and so I make this decision to inflict pain because it's painful to inflict pain on my child for the purpose of her good but there's something in me that always remembers the look on a child's face when they realize that they're hurt that you're hurting them on purpose and that like

Brenda (24:13.033)

Mm.

Alex (24:14.985)

confusion, a bewilderment, an anger that comes over their face that like I can picture it in my mind and I picture that sometimes because I think that's that must be the way I look to God right now and that he's looking at me with love and compassion saying I'm only doing this because I love you, I'm only doing this because this is for your good and it just helps me to orient it's probably

Alex (24:45.125)

theology because it just helps me to remember that my pain and bewilderment he understands that too.

Brenda (24:51.906)

Gosh, Alex, thanks for that. That's so great because as you were saying that I was recalling this time that my grandson Sawyer was here and he stepped on a bee.

Alex (25:00.197)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (25:00.414)

and it stung the bottom of his foot and the stinger went in. And as I scooped him up, he was literally screaming, you know, thrashing his arms and legs. We got him in as Paul and I both tried to hold him down to see it and put his foot under the water and get the little paste of, you know, whatever the little baking soda paste you put on it. But I mean, it was an all-out kind of just war to get him to be still enough for us to do what we needed to do to actually get the little stinger out and to bring comfort to him.

Alex (25:03.399)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (25:30.308)

that picture. In times when I've been stung by life and you know I'm screaming and just recognizing that God is working something in His love, in His love for me because what He's accomplishing and we're gonna be talking about that next session, what God is accomplishing in our suffering is gonna speak I think a lot more to His even to His love.

Alex (25:54.091)

Yeah, Charles Spurgeon has this great quote that speaks to this. I did not know this was a Charles Spurgeon quote until you cited it, Brenda. God is too good to be unkind and he is too wise to be mistaken. And when we cannot trace his hand, we must trust his heart. Yeah.

Brenda (26:03.168)

Yeah.

Brenda (26:12.898)

Do you remember that old song? If you can't trace his hand, trust his heart. It's a great song. An oldie but a goodie.

Alex (26:16.376)

Yeah, that's what I knew. I didn't know it was, yes, that's exactly what I knew. I did not know it was this virgin quote. It is.

Brenda (26:29.098)

Well, when we think about God's love, yesterday I was in Psalm 90, and Psalm 90 is a Psalm of Moses, which makes it probably one of the oldest Psalms recorded. And it's when he's in the desert. And you might remember that after I came back from Israel, I talked on one of the podcasts about the desert being the place God takes you because he wants to shape you and mold you. So it's those hard places in our life. And I love what he says about God.

love in this and I just want to read these verses 13 and 14 he says Lord how long okay like I've been at that desert I saw I stood right there Alex and I saw where the Israelites would have come by it is terrible I can't even imagine how long turn and have compassion on your servants satisfy us in the morning with your faithful love so that we may shout with joy and be glad all of our days

And so we just come back to this idea that, you know, what was it that Moses is saying to God that he's gonna need to sustain this suffering? He's gonna need to know that God is with him and for him and sees him, and he's gonna know that by being satisfied with God's unfailing love.

So I just thought that was such a timely scripture for me in light of our podcasting. And then I have this really wonderful wise mentor, her name's Margaret. And she would always say these two words anytime somebody would be talking about trouble. And she was it wasn't a glib saying, as you would say, Alex, but it was actually a real heartfelt like it was just kind of her little motto or phrase. And she would just look at you and say, Father filtered in the sweetest, like in the sweetest tone.

us that nothing takes God by surprise and that He allows nothing into our lives, that He is not carefully orchestrated because, precisely because He loves me.

Alex (28:24.96)

Yeah, yeah, that's good.

So the sovereignty and wisdom and love of God, I think they come together and I think they cause us to ask what we would call a big question, which is where was God when Jesus suffered on the cross? Because it's hard for us to put together these three things in our own suffering and then to also see why this was the best, the highest, most loving way for God to accomplish his purposes.

we want to argue again that just like we're arguing that God is with us in our suffering that God was right there with Jesus before, during, and after the cross. You know if we really think about it the cross is the most profound evil and suffering in all of scripture and all the world is the crucifixion of Christ and so we see his wisdom, sovereignty, and love come together because we see in

Alex (29:28.681)

He planned it before the creation of the world. This was his plan, this was his purpose. And his...yeah. Right.

Brenda (29:33.778)

Can I stop you right there? Can I stop you just right there? I mean, just that alone, we just go, poof, right? Like mind explosion. Like in his sovereignty, he foreordained this event. Okay.

Alex (29:45.32)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (29:46.086)

So he's in complete control, complete control of the biggest display of evil, the most suffering in all of human history. I don't know. I just don't want that to be lost on us. Like this is, we're talking about God. We're not talking about men here. And so we just have to really wrap our minds around that. Okay. Keep going. Sorry. I just had to, that was just like,

Alex (30:04.18)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah, yeah.

And then this is probably the hardest one for me, is that in his wisdom, he planned it and used it to accomplish his purposes. Like when we think about the greatest act of evil, that God can use evil to accomplish his purposes and chose this to be the best way to attain his highest goal. Like that's, yeah. Again, because it's not what we would choose.

And I think what's comforting even is to be able to go to the Garden of Gethsemane with Jesus and see Him. Even He in that moment questions like, is this the only way? Like He even has this moment where He turns to the Father, just a moment of real humanity. And then in His love, He accomplished this redemption for us that He used this ultimate suffering in order to redeem us, to rescue us,

himself. So God was there before in ordaining it during and after Jesus's death on the cross.

Brenda (31:19.842)

Yeah.

That's so good. Gosh, I've really enjoyed this. I know for just where I am in my life, working through this series has ministered to my own heart. And the whole point of conversational counseling is that we have conversations with God ourself that actually bring comfort and change to us so that we are then prepared in an overflowing way to talk to other people. And I think this series is really sharpening my own understanding and application of,

Alex (31:35.082)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (31:50.428)

up my theology of suffering would be a better way to say it. It's making it more robust to face my own suffering and that is actually helping me as I'm engaging with people suffering every single day. And when you know we talk about where was God right there before, during, and after, I think this whole idea of after, what was God doing, what was he up to? That's where we're going next, right Alex? The what? Like what is God doing in my suffering? Because the scripture says

Alex (31:52.907)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Brenda (32:20.228)

endured the cross. And so, so what was the joy? What is happening? And what then happens in our suffering? Because we've said God is not arbitrary or cruel. And so there is purpose. And so in our next episode, that's what we want to tap into. We want to really look at what are some of the things that we know from scripture that will tell us why and where and how and all answer some of those questions. Just the purposes, I think, because when we have hope that there's purpose, it

Alex (32:21.63)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (32:50.188)

us endurance.

Alex (32:52.355)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's really good. Someone said, God in his love always wills what is best for us and his wisdom always knows what is best and in his sovereignty he has the power to bring it about.

I think that's a good summary of everything we've been talking about today. And I'm hoping that even if our listeners are in a time where their suffering is really deep and it feels like God is very far, I'm hoping that they can borrow our faith, so to speak, that we can encourage them to continue to trust what they don't feel. And I hope that this whole series on suffering is equipping each one of us just like you

Brenda (33:09.996)

Yeah.

Alex (33:39.849)

you said Brenda, to be able to navigate our own suffering and be able to sit with others. As always we hope that if these podcasts are helpful to you you'll join our email list on nenministries.org and that you'll do all the things like share rate and you'll tune in with us again once we finish this series on suffering.