Season 5 Episode 1: Why Do I Suffer?

Alex (00:03.052)

Well Brenda, it's hard to believe this is season five of conversational counseling. And this season we're going to talk about suffering. Difficult topic. I hope that we'll be able to bring some comfort and encouragement to our listeners and even to ourselves. And I'm excited because throughout this season we're also gonna have several guests that are gonna talk about how they have suffered and how the Lord has brought comfort

encouragement to them but we're going to try to focus specifically on four common questions that people have been asking for a long time about suffering.

Brenda (00:44.842)

Yeah, and those questions are, like you said, I think questions that are common to all of us. And you want to say what those are, Alex?

Alex (00:53.776)

Yeah, so the four questions we're going to cover are, Why do I suffer? Where is God in my suffering? What is God doing in my suffering? And how do I suffer well and walk with others to do the same? And I think these are core questions that have brought some people to faith and maybe have led some away from the faith. They're certainly difficult questions to answer. I don't think we're going to plumb the depths

of all that God does or why we suffer, but we wanna try to give some language around it.

Brenda (01:32.162)

Yeah.

And I really think if we're honest, for any of us who have suffered, we've wrestled with these questions. I think the more intense our suffering is, the more intensely we will wrestle. But I also want to notice here that our experiencing of suffering not only pushes us to ask the questions, but we don't ask them out of unbelief, but actually out of faith, because all of these questions are directed toward God, not away from him. So, you know, we don't doubt he exists. Oftentimes in suffering, it's really for the Christian. It's not we doubt he exists.

We're just struggling to understand him right and what God wants is our questions to lead to a greater trust So our faith will actually grow You know during our class which we would recommend We've got more information on suffering on our online class if anybody would like to go deeper on this topic, but we Really laid out the book of Job in one of our seminars in our online class and the book of Job is the oldest Book written in the Bible and I think it's interesting

and instructive that the problem of evil and suffering is the first matter that God addresses because even though God calls Job a righteous man he suffers tragically and terribly and it really does beg the age-old question why do bad things happen to good people?

Alex (02:40.077)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (02:53.064)

Yeah, yeah, you're right. And I think we hear three common responses to the question of suffering that can take us in a lot of different places. One of them being, I would call the punishment response. God's mad at me, God's paying me back for this. And what ends up getting produced out of that question is a lot of fear.

Brenda (03:17.2)

Mm-hmm.

I just talk to people so often that they're just waiting for the hammer to fall. You know, God's going to give me a right punch and then he's waiting to give me a left punch. And really, just like Job and his friends, we tend to embrace what's called a retribution theology. And that's just the idea that good deeds are always rewarded and bad deeds are always punished. And so a lot of times when suffering comes, this becomes a real temptation. And I was just thinking about this precious woman who I counseled.

Alex (03:23.026)

Right.

Brenda (03:48.176)

delivering a child with special needs. And she was convinced that her baby was born with disabilities because she and her husband had sex before marriage. And she saw her suffering as a way of God punishing her. God was getting back at them for their disobedience. And Alex, as she wept, my heart broke, but no more than God's. I know God's heart was breaking at this wrong view of who he is in this moment of suffering.

Alex (04:17.303)

Yeah, and how could you not be afraid of a God who would be postured towards you like that? So there's just a lot of fear when we embrace that punishment response. Another response I think we both see is the abandonment response where we believe that God's forgotten about me, He doesn't care for me, He's turned away from me, and we see people struggle with a lot of doubt about who God is because they feel like He's no longer there.

Brenda (04:46.474)

Yeah, I know this has been true for me. This is one response that I have actually struggled with. My suffering story involves a prodigal child, and it's been a long 12 years watching this child self-destruct. And in times of deep pain, if I'm being honest, it doesn't feel like God is present. And it actually sometimes seems that he's ignoring me, or maybe he's even forgotten me.

And I can be tempted to doubt his love, his sovereignty, his wisdom, and even whether or not he cares for me.

Alex (05:20.992)

Yeah. The last common response I think we see is an entitlement response. And this would be where we feel like, why is this happening to me? Here's all the things I've done. I've tried to be good and I don't deserve this. And we see that entitlement response producing a lot of bitterness in our own hearts towards God.

Brenda (05:44.078)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's probably...

the most damning one of all, right? When bitterness sets in against God and we impugn God's character and his motives in this way. But, you know, I think we all probably know someone who due to fear, doubt, or bitterness over suffering have actually drifted from the faith or maybe even walked away altogether. We don't want that to happen to anyone. And we hope that this podcast will help strengthen our faith, your faith, and whatever suffering story we're all facing today.

So the way we are going to do that is we're going to have to really take a look at our theology because the theology of suffering matters Alex. One of my seminary professors used to always say we need a robust theology of suffering and robust means simply strong healthy vigorous. And I think that's missing for a lot of Christians. You know I think we kind of don't see that we're in a war. We want a peacetime mentality and we really think we're living heaven on earth. And that's not true.

And so when something disrupts us some suffering comes our way it disorients us And if we don't have a robust theology of suffering we can lose our bearings so easily Excuse me and then begin to question in unhealthy ways all that we actually know to be true And you know the best time to really build this theology you might be thinking well I'm not suffering you know this podcast isn't I don't need to listen to this podcast and I'd say back up

Because the best time to build a robust theology of suffering is when you are not suffering deeply It's hard to build anything when a wrecking ball is coming through your house and tearing it to the ground, right? So we need a firm foundation before trouble comes and that's what we're hoping to do this season

Alex (07:37.352)

Yeah, that robust theology of suffering makes me think of the quote by John Piper that I love that wimpy theology makes for wimpy women and strong theology makes for strong women that as we build ourselves up with the truth, we become spiritually, emotionally stronger. And so that robust theology of suffering will help us remember what we know to be true, even when we don't understand what God's up to.

And it reminds me of what you're saying of we have to build that in times when we're not suffering so that when we get in hard times, we're reminded that we don't question in the darkness what we've already learned in the light. And we just hold on.

Brenda (08:23.406)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, right? And it can definitely feel like a ride. Well, the Bible is a big story of suffering. And so I think it would be great just to take a few minutes and talk about, just pull this thread through the Bible arc, this theme of suffering, if you will.

Alex (08:32.468)

Yeah.

Alex (08:42.708)

Yeah, we love to talk about the big story of the Bible, and I do think we see suffering woven through it all. That from the beginning, that the big story of the Bible we say is creation, fall, redemption, and restoration. And from the beginning and creation and life in the garden, we see how God intended the world to be, and it was a world without suffering. But as soon as sin entered the world in the fall, all manner of suffering came in with it.

we see in the redemption story that mm-hmm all hell broke loose.

Brenda (09:13.87)

Can we just say, hey, can we just say literally, all hell broke loose? I mean, seriously. Yeah.

Alex (09:21.712)

Yes, and we needed rescuing. And so the redemption part of our story is that Jesus came and He was the suffering servant because He was willing to suffer in our place. And He did that so that we could be restored to God, to one another, and so that in the suffering that still continues because the redemptive act didn't end our suffering, it just allows us to have hope in suffering.

Alex (09:51.546)

restoration of all creation where there'll be no more sin and no more suffering. So we can see the thread of suffering woven throughout the scripture and it's a thread that's meant to help us make sense of what's happening and also to give us hope of where we're headed.

Brenda (10:09.966)

And I'm sorry, I think I checked out for a second, but did you say restoration? That there would, you did? Okay. I was like, did she get to the last part of the story? Because it's the best part of the story. And then I was like, I bet you she did. And for some reason, squirrel went by, butterfly went by, my little brain got distracted. Sorry about that. You know, this is just re-

Alex (10:14.079)

I did.

Alex (10:17.838)

I'll say it again.

Alex (10:28.788)

Restoration, yes, where all sin and suffering ends.

Brenda (10:33.226)

real life conversation. I need to go back to last season and listen to the Ministry of Listening apparently. Oh, all right. As we move on, you know, what is the result of the fall? And we talked about there's brokenness and suffering in four main relationships. Man with God, man with self, man with others, and man with earth or the environment.

And so if we think about it, suffering has come, sin has affected our relationship with God. Our understanding of God is not only distorted, Alex, but worse than that, we actually wanna be God. We wanna be on the throne of our lives. And I love this idea that separation from God is the very definition of suffering. So sin has separated us from God, and that's why we had to be rescued. And there's a sense in which

Alex (11:11.436)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (11:20.949)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (11:29.008)

sin as we're walking through sanctification makes us feel separated from God, right? And then relationally there's a way that we need to repent and come back to God. And then I just think as we experience the effects of living in a sin-fallen world, we often feel separated from God even though we never are really separated from God in Christ. But you know this idea of separation, that's heavy when we think about this is what sin has

Alex (11:51.266)

Yeah.

Brenda (11:58.608)

and continues to make us feel this way.

Alex (12:01.964)

Yeah.

So in addition to man being separated from God, we also see that we're separated from ourselves. So every part of us has been affected by our fall into sin. Our beliefs, our affections, and our will are all distorted. And then we suffer because we don't rightly understand ourselves. We see our bodies, in addition to those inner man parts of our beliefs and affections and will,

by the effects of the fall. We're deteriorating, we're aging every day and so the effects of the fall affect us within ourselves and affect our bodies.

Brenda (12:46.934)

Yeah, boy, and I think last season, really, the way sin affects us within ourselves was highlighted in all the common struggles, right? We did a whole season on all these struggles. And so there's a real brokenness in our inner man. The third way is just man with others. And I just think about the garden where there was no suffering. And Adam.

Alex (12:54.683)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (13:08.614)

walked with one another naked and unashamed and now that's no longer true and so our selfishness our shame produces conflict in relationships with our current families our families of origin our friends our workplace and we suffer when we sin against others and we suffer when they sin against us

Alex (13:29.044)

Yeah, I think for me, this has come home the last year. It's just been a year of so much broken relationship and just really, I don't think I've ever grieved so much over the effects of sin in my relationships and the conflicts that separated me from people that I love. And so this area of man being separated from each other is really something we experience

by amendment. The last one may not feel good.

Brenda (14:00.478)

Yeah, and I'm...

What I was just gonna say, and I think with that man with others is, we've talked before about isolation and loneliness, but I think this is a severe form of suffering, kind of like, sin doesn't just separate us from God, but it separates us from one another. So just this whole idea of separation and suffering because there's isolation, and there's loneliness in that. We're supposed to be in community and relationship with God, we're supposed to be, and there's fullness and shalom and peace and happiness,

another, but then how sin comes and produces suffering in these key areas of relationship.

Alex (14:40.119)

Yeah.

The last one may not feel as intuitive, but we realize that our relationship with the earth or the environment is broken. We struggle with the effects of decay in our homes and in our world. We suffer when we experience the effects of things like natural disasters, fires, hurricanes, those kinds of things. Even this summer, as we're recording this podcast, where many places are experiencing record heat, flooding.

fires, the smog that comes from wildfires, it can often feel like the earth itself is conspiring to make us suffer. In addition to just the decay of the natural world, I mean my house, you know, the dust, the decay of things that need to be replaced, and we can begin to feel like the environment itself is against us.

Brenda (15:20.873)

It's true.

Brenda (15:35.434)

Yeah. Yes.

Well, this is life in a sin-fallen world, Alex, and I think part of a robust theology is that we have to really embrace the fact that we are saints living in a fallen world. And so suffering is going to be a part of our experience. It's inevitable. But I think, you know, as we're talking about suffering, we also think about the problem of evil, which goes right along with suffering. And I think for many people, again, this is a

an area that is really, really hard to understand if there is a good God, then how did evil come? And why did God leave like Satan in the garden? And, you know, he's in control of all things. Couldn't things have been different? And the reality is, is we, you and me, are not going to solve the problem of evil here because volumes have been written about it and all kinds of people speaking from all kinds of side on this. But there's a few things that we can say quite confidently.

Alex (16:24.853)

No.

Brenda (16:38.156)

and that is we know that God is not the author of evil. He didn't create evil, but as we see in the life of Job and people like Joseph and even Jesus, God often allows evil to work in our lives to accomplish his glory and his will. And I just remember early on as a believer, maybe some of my first crises and some of the first suffering issues that I had being pretty distraught

a robust theology of suffering and I couldn't figure out why if I was loving God, why wasn't he loving me back by making my life perfect, right? I thought that was kind of the, there's a little bargaining here is you know if I accept you as my savior and I trust in you then my life is going to be good and you know and so this verse Deuteronomy 29 really began to speak to me because it has

Alex (17:16.561)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (17:37.836)

God. It says, the secret things belong to the Lord your God, but the things revealed belong to you and your children forever. And I love the New Living Translation says it this way, the Lord our God has secrets known to no one. We are not accountable for them. But we and our children are accountable forever for all that he has revealed to us, so that we may obey all the terms of these instructions. And so

Alex (18:04.632)

You're good.

Brenda (18:05.778)

If we understood all this, we would be God. We're not gonna understand all this. And as we get into this though, just because we don't understand all the ways of God doesn't mean that we cannot wrestle with evil well, that we can't struggle well, that we can't learn to move through suffering in a way that actually draws us closer to Jesus and makes us more useful in the lives of other people. And that's so much about, you know, our podcast is about is not only the help that we

can receive from the Lord, but how does that translate into helping other people?

And one of my favorite sermons is by Tim Keller. You can tell we're big Tim Keller fans. I think we quote him a good bit here. But he has a sermon called, If God is Good, Why is There So Much Evil in the World? And we'll link that as well. But I just want to read this one quote, Alex. He says, in the midst of evil and suffering, abandoning your faith will neither help you handle suffering nor understand God. By looking back to Jesus's death on the cross and looking ahead to the hope of the new heavens and new earth,

God's overwhelming love for us and the promise that victory will swallow up evil and death. The whole sermon is so good it's a must listen to if you struggle with this question and he does a much deeper dive and let's just face it he's a lot smarter than we are even with our combined head so it'd be good to really lean into him and I would really commend that sermon to anybody who's really struggling with this issue.

Alex (19:20.588)

Alright.

Alex (19:32.501)

Hmm hmm hmm.

Alex (19:39.892)

Yeah, and I feel the tension of doing this series even in this first podcast because I know anyone who is really struggling with deep suffering right now is probably feeling like you really haven't told me why this is happening and we can't. We haven't. And I often tell people who sit in my office with me who are suffering deeply, like if you have somebody tell you like precisely or exactly why this is happening to you, run.

away from them because they are attempting to know the deep things of God and yes we can talk about some general principles of truth from the scriptures that we know but to presume to know all that God's doing and what he's doing all that as someone said the thousand things he's doing and suffering is really beyond what any of us as in our human minds can

Brenda (20:14.626)

Yeah.

Alex (20:39.826)

So we say we suffer simply because we live in a fallen world because evil is part of our struggle in this world and even though we don't completely understand the whys of why God allows evil in this world we can hang on to some truths and I think we'll go back to those responses he's not punishing us he

None of us are entitled to a suffering free life. And so we hope that as we continue to answer these questions, we will all feel more grounded in a good and robust theology of suffering. So as we talk about where's God and what is he doing and how do I suffer well, our hope is that it will bring encouragement to you and that you'll be able to share this with someone else who is suffering. And as always, if this podcast has encouraged you,

I hope that you will rate it and like it and share it and all the things. And if you haven't joined our email list, we encourage you to go to our website, knownministries.org and sign up to be part of our email list. You'll get the email in your inbox and any handouts that may come with each episode. You'll also get a free lament video that we created that is meant to be a tool to use in times of suffering.

Brenda (22:07.294)

Yeah, sounds great, Alex. Thanks so much and we will see everybody next time.