Season 3 Episode 7

Hi, I'm Alex. And I'm Brenda. Welcome to Conversational Counseling or Counseling and Discipleship Meet. We have to give people a lot of grace because a lot of times the heart's in the right place, God gives us grace, and he covers over a lot. What strengthens relationships is that we are willing to own where.

Them and lean in and ask for forgiveness when it's necessary and take responsibility for that. And that's actually what builds trust.

While we're back with our next episode where we're talking about a model for personal ministry and we've gone through what it means to be present for someone to, uh, listen really well to someone. And today we thought we'd do something a little. Fun, uh, with listening fun in that we're probably gonna do even more confessing than we've already done.

And talk about ways that we miss each other. We're talking about miserable counselors, miserable counselors, and, um, and so we are just thinking about, um, listening. And listening Well, and I've, I feel like I've really been attuned to this as we've been talking about this, and attunement is one of the things we talked about, but I've been attuned to how good of a listener I am or how poor of a listener I am.

And then also places, um, and people who I feel really heard with. And we talked about, um, just what it's like to feel attuned to, to feel. Seen and heard and contained in the fact that somebody knows what to do with what we've shared with them. And we went over kind of the top 10 traits of a good listener, which, um, which I think help us give some structure to what listening is because we can tend to think that we're just good at it.

And we may not be. And therein lies the danger, Alex. Yes. The self-deception that can come with that. Well, I know we've also talked about how like character. And being like, Jesus is the most important part of this whole series, and walking with him and allowing him to minister to us so that we can know what that's like as an overflow.

But there is some skill involved and, um, I'm really thankful that God gave us the book of Joe because I think it is the book of what not to do as a friend. Uh, you know, in spiritual friendships we have this whole book and I know that we have in our online class an entire hour that we unpack job and really talk about the kind of friends or that job's friends were not, I guess we would say.

But, you know, I think for a lot of us, one of the ways that we can learn something best is to really look at what not to do. Mm-hmm. So we can kind of take the negative and that highlights the. But job's comforters were actually miserable comforters. Mm-hmm. In that, not only did they not comfort, they actually increased his grief and sorrow.

Yes. Which is even a whole nother level, right? Like we could just not show up. But then if we show up and we botch the whole thing, we can actually make it harder for people. I wanna read these words from Job. It's in the last chapter. God. God has just been going on and on, talking to job, inviting job to trust him even though he doesn't understand the, Um, and then he turns to job's, friends, and this is what he says.

After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Elise, the terminate or the termini. Yeah, I think that's right. However you say that. I'm horrible, Alex, with pronunciations of biblical names. Mm-hmm. Maybe it's not just me, it's not. So here's what God says to this friend. I am angry with you and your two friends because you have not spoken of me.

What is right as my servant Joe has. I think that's so interesting cuz if you read through the book of job, it's like, wow, how is that even possible? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But read it and see what you think. So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant job and sacrifice a burn offering for yourselves.

My servant job will pray for you and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken of me. What is right? As my servant job has. And so I think, you know, hearing kinda lies the crux of when we're talking to people and the danger is that the folley is when we don't speak truth about God into another person's life.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And in listening, we can't speak truth if we're not listening Well, if we're not asking good questions about what's going on in the person's life. And so as we kind of go into, um, you know, what we're calling, calling the quote unquote miserable mis uh, miserable comforters, um, we're not making light of the fact that we can, uh, run into this way of relating or listening or interacting.

That that does, that can disparage God in the eyes of someone else. But we also know that sometimes in life and personal. Um, we, we need to be able to laugh at ourselves a little bit so we can learn from the hard mistakes we've. That's right. And that's really what this list is. And I just wanna give credit where credit's due.

I got this list from a group called Para, I think I've mentioned before, in a training that I did with them, called Alongside. And um, so we've adapted this a little bit for us, but we're just gonna go through the, the 10 miserable comforters and see where we see ourselves. And as you said, Brenda, let, sometimes it's good to laugh at ourselves and it's maybe the easy, it's the spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down, right?

That's right. Great way to look at it. Well, let's look at number one, miss 10 easy steps. Mm-hmm. It gives an expedient answer. Of advice. Yes. I think that this is probably, it's good, it's number one cuz it's number one on my list of ways that I miss people. I, I like to say sometimes I'm a teacher by, um, gifting trade.

Um, and spiritual gifting and calling. And so as soon as someone has a problem, I want to fix it for them. And so I wanna give them advice and I wanna give them, of course, 10 easy steps. If I can get it to three, it'd be even better. But I just really, we all have that moment where we, we do allow ourselves to feel the impact of someone else's suffering, and then we wanna move in and fix it because we actually don't wanna.

In the feeling of suffering, that they are evoking in us. And I think that's been the, the hardest thing for me to learn. And actually something my husband and I have been working on together that these places where his, what, um, What my counselor calls poverty of spirit, what Jesus calls poverty of spirit and my poverty of spirit hit each other.

These places where he's suffering and where I'm suffering and we collide is when we tend to push away from each other. And one of the easiest ways to push away is just give advice to someone of how they can fix it. Mm-hmm. Because you don't really need relationship in that, right? The rule, the rules will do just fine when you don't want relationship.

Right? For me, I see this a little bit, um, maybe different kind of this idea of you've got a problem and I've got the answer. Follow these steps out of your mess. Mm-hmm. And, um, one of the things I know, especially as a young mom, I was so quick to wanna give counsel to people because I loved the formulas at that point in my life that seemed to work.

Wow. Great. A plus B actually did equal C mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Until they got to be pre-teen and teenagers, right? Yes. Yes. Most of that begin to fall apart. So, um, we just wanna be careful that we are not kind of doing that. Like, do it, you know, do these 10 steps, take the scripture, call me in the morning and it will be great.

There is a, there is a temptation for. When we're trying to push away from relationship with rules or when something has worked in our life, and now that becomes the model for our personal ministry. Yeah, I really like that you added that, Brenda. Cuz again, I think that we go to the rules because the rules make us feel safe.

And in that moment when we feel uneasy with someone suffering, we feel insecure. We wanna find some solid ground or some safety. And so rules are structure and advice becomes a way that, that we do that. Okay. The second one is Miss at least. And this is assigning a silver lining to the situation to redirect.

So, well, I know this is hard, but at least this hasn't happened. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I mean, I can say personally, just, you know, um, parenting and adult prodigal child, it doesn't neutralize my pain when somebody says, well, at least your other two children are doing great. Or at least you know, he hasn't done this yet.

He's not dead yet, or, you know, there's no neutralizing of that pain, particularly when the pain is severe. So we just want to be sensitive. Um, you know, I think that there's a silver lining in all of our stories. It's the grace of God that gives us the courage and the love to move through and the hope and the faith we need, but to compare it to something else in that way tends to really just feel, um, very minimizing.

Yes. Yeah, that's a great word. That is what it is. It's minimizing and I think that it, um, it creates an immediate wall between you and the person who's speaking because if they can't sense that you can enter in, in any level, like they've already kinda, we've already told someone when we say this, you shouldn't be so upset about this.

And so they're gonna be done talking to. Yeah, great point. That is not the person I want to continue to engage with. Brian. All right. Number three is miss mocking. Mm-hmm. A judgmental aghast with verbals or non-verbals or a redirect to diffuse with humor. Mm-hmm. Now, this first one part, I have to say kind of this, the judgmental part, A verbals or non-verbals.

Maybe you could speak more to that. I think the diffusing with humor, um, Is something that we, we can be really tempted to do when we're uncomfortable. Mm. If we try to to be light or be funny, make light of something to be funny, um, because we are uncomfortable, then humor feels like it's going to break the ice.

And sometimes humor is wonderful in that way. Mm-hmm. Uh, my husband is, is just a man full of humor and most of the time uses it. Well, yes. Every once in a while he'll say something and crack a joke or have a little, you. Sarcastic comment, that's just maybe not at the right time. So I think timing and knowing your audience is really important with this and the severity of the issue.

Well, I have a, a humor filled husband also, and he has diffused many a situation with teenage girls with his humor. But he has also recognized conversations where he was uncomfortable and he used humor and it shut the conversation down. Yep. You're right. There is a balance with that. I think the judgmental part is when we almost don't filter ourselves at all, and we have that like, oh, I can't believe you did that.

Like, why'd you say that? You know, or you know, like, we immediately just kind of react. And again, nothing, um, shuts us down then feeling like the person can't even begin to understand and that they've already placed us in a place where we're. Um, because we did something we shouldn't have done. And if you think about it, um, is really what Jeb's counselors did to him.

They, they judged him in his suffering without sitting in the suffering themselves. And so I think that, you know, we have to, in some ways develop a poker face. Like where we are not instantly reacting to every part. Mm-hmm. But we're trying to take in the whole of someone's story and experience before we start to speak back to it.

So it can be really easy to say something that comes across as telling someone they did it wrong and judging them. Yeah. And I see this really at play, um, in situations I've had with my children growing up. Mm-hmm. I think this might be one of the places. In those co, in those relationships, maybe we're the most comfortable with even.

Mm-hmm. Sort of like, oh my goodness, I cannot believe you did that. Or How could you do that? Mm-hmm. You know, and there can be such just, um, Too much emotion, maybe some hyperbole in our speech over the top. I never thought you would do that. You all, you know, always, I, I taught you better than this. That's right.

I heard myself saying that I taught you better than this. Mm-hmm. And so that's a good point. All of that definitely will shut down communication. Mm-hmm. All right. Let's look at number four. Um, miss Dead Cat. Yes. An attempt to connect with your story by sharing one's own story, which may or may not be anywhere close to similar.

Yeah, so this, this example is so painful, I think. Terrible. It's terrible. It's, it's kind of done, uh, to an extreme for us to be able to see. So I'm gonna give an example, yes, and then we'll kind of back it down maybe with some other kind of real life things that we do. I would hope, I hope, I hope none of us would do it, but as soon as I say it, I'll do it next week.

So, but the example is, I'm sorry about your daughter dying. I totally understand. My cat died last year and that's why it's called the Dead Cat because we're, we're comparing suffering and we are completely missing. And so it's super easy to see in this example how we've. The person to compare, um, the loss of our animal to the loss of their child.

But I think it's really beneficial for us to think of ways that we make comparisons. And here's the hard thing. We really believe that it's like. Like that. What we are comparing it to is, is alike. Mm-hmm. And yet it leaves the other person feeling really misunderstood when they cannot make the connection to what we're explaining.

And I think, again, we're back to that place of, of, of grossly minimizing someone's suffering. Yeah, no, I would agree with you. And I think the example does just point out how bad and painful that can be. And you know, I think a lot of times when we see people or if we are that person, um, I think so much of the time, it's just because the focus has been on me.

And so when I'm talking to someone, I'm thinking about me more than I'm thinking about them. Mm-hmm. And we gotta step outside of our ourselves if we're gonna enter into somebody else's story and pain. Yeah. And I think that brings up a really good point because we talk so much about empathy in, in the podcast on listen.

And it used to be that people would say that empathy was the Me too, and there is something that's Me too. And empathy. I'm not saying that it's not, but what it led a lot of us to do, me included, was to find a situation that I related to what the person was telling me and then say, oh yeah, I understand because I.

This, and I learned this in a really difficult way when we were involved in our conversations around race in Montgomery because I was trying to tap into my own experiences and understand and say Me too, in places where I really didn't have any business say in me too. Like what, what, um, the girls that we were talking to were, were really asking for was not for me to find a similar experience within myself.

They were asking me to enter into what their experience was like. Like you just said, Brenda. Come out of myself and recognize that me with my white skin and they with their brown skin did not have the same experiences of things, and they wanted me to listen well and try to understand what their experience was, not try to relate it to something so that then we could have this shared experience.

So it's really, really, I think this is where we're getting into some real intricacy of what listening and empathy are, because in order to do that well, we have to tap in to our own emotion. We have to be able to feel our own emotion, but we have to be careful what we say in that moment. Hmm. And so I have to recognize.

Maybe examples of my own loneliness or my own rejection, but I wanna be careful that I don't speak that back out and then completely miss a person because they go, no, that wasn't it at all. You know? Yeah. I think that's really good. I think this is just, you know, there's a time to speak and a time to be silent.

There's a time to relate and a time to not have to relate. Mm-hmm. And again, we are um, all share a certain amount of suffering, but we don't share the same experiences. And so that's really good. That's a great example. Thank you for that. Well, number five is Ms. Freedom Rob, a prescriptive suggestion that dis diminishes your choices or implies one right way to honor God.

Mm-hmm. An example was attending the women's retreat is non-negotiable for a pastor's wife. Mm-hmm. I think you and I, Brenda both have been in cultures and probably been perpetrators of telling somebody the right way to do things. Especially I think for both of us in the area of parenting, like we have heard so much.

What it means to, um, raise, go grow children's God's way. Sorry. But we can all relate to it. Um, what it means to, you know, this is the biblical way to handle this with your children. And so we, um, we listen to moms who are really struggling with things and then we wanna just hand them this, again, a solution in a box.

But this one is particular, the freedom Rob is the solution we give 'em is extremely narrow and it implies to them, That the, that the Bible only gives you one option? Yeah. I think it's just important that we don't command anything the scripture doesn't command. Mm-hmm. And we don't prohibit anything the scripture doesn't prohibit and we have to leave room that God is gonna work in your marriage and with your children and your workspace different than he's working in mine and is not gonna be cookie cutter.

Um, and you know, I I, I was just reading in First Corinthians and I thought it was interesting. I think it's chapter seven where Paul says, um, I not the Lord says this. Mm-hmm. The Lord says to tell that I need to tell you this, but then he says, I not the Lord says this. Mm-hmm. And so, even though it's inspired scripture, I just look at it and think, wow.

Like he's really making a difference there. Mm-hmm. And what is the Lord saying versus what is an application that I'm giving you of what the Lord says? And I think that's where we have to be really careful. We can say, this is what the Bible says, but the application again may be much broader, much wider, and quite frankly, much more gray than right than we want to allow for.

So, um, I, you know, one of the, one of the things I do look back is how much my. Freedom was robbed with in my early parenting years because I did think there was a way became the way, and that's, I think that's really the crux of this is when a way becomes the way, becomes God's way. Right. And now you're bound by that and you're binding other people and that we just need to be really careful.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, the next one is Miss Sin frisk. That's almost hard to get out. Sin frisk, a spiritual patdown to discover your, uh, your sinful errors. So this is exactly what Jobes counselors did. So the example would be you're, you're, you must be struggling because you have an obeyed God. Where are you not following God?

And, and, um, why is he disciplining you like this? Mm-hmm. Well, and I was thinking having, you know, just flown recently going through security and when you go in, you know, and you do the whole security check and then you know how nerve wracking it is if they call you to the side. Yes. And now they wanna pat you down.

Yes. And your heart is raising, you know, you don't have anything on you, but you're just sure. Like they're gonna fi what if they find something? Yeah. Um, and so I think it's in front of everybody too. Yes, people are watching. Exactly. And so I think, you know, we need to think like, are we making somebody feel that way when we begin to engage with somebody that we are just looking?

And of course we've talked at length about this in St. Sufferer Center, which was in season one. I also talked about in season one, where this happened to me in a situation in school where somebody was patting me down and sniffing, sniffing me out to find mm-hmm. That sin and I was hurting so deeply and so badly.

And, and the bottom line is, is that, you know what? Um, it's, it's typically the problem is usually bigger than the problem that we see. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think particularly in this example, God is a perfect parent and his children are disobedient. And so we want, again, we just wanna have all these ni nice and neat clean categories.

Um, and it doesn't work that that way. Of course, sin is serious and we wanna talk to people about their sin. Um, but we need to be really wise in general in how we do that. Yes. And I think, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna talk in another episode about when it's time to speak, and of course there is time to speak about someone's sin.

But I think when we, um, when we're early in listening to someone or we haven't listened deeply or well, and then I always say when we haven't really felt it in our gut. What their experience has been like and why they made the choices they made. Then I think we're quick to draw lines to, you're experiencing this because you did this, and when we are drawing those very distinct, very straight lines, I think that should be a red flag for us.

Like, It's very rarely that, you know? Yeah. Like you said, that easy and, and then in the places where the Holy Spirit is particularly convicting someone, we wanna listen and lean into that, but we wanna make sure that we are not being the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And I can just tell you, even in the last two weeks I was guilty of.

Um, in meeting with some folks. So, I mean, as we're sitting here talking about it, I'm like, oh, that's what that was. And, you know, it was very hurtful and painful to the person that it was done to. Mm-hmm. And so now we're having to unwind. Mm-hmm. You know, some of the damage that was done just for rushing in and not listening well, yeah.

It may twice as hard, by the way, if you're meeting with more than one person at one time, if you're doing any kind of mediation between two people Yeah. Or marriage counseling, um, you know, sitting with a couple, some friends maybe that are at your, across your kitchen table, like when you're listening to two people and you're taking in twice as much the information and processing twice as much, or coworkers trying to bring resolution at.

Uh, I think it can be really easy to immediately be saying who was wrong, who did what wrong? How do we fix it? Yes. Get back on track. On track, you know, and move forward and, and again, Brenda, the reason we do that, I think I want us to keep coming back to what we are experiencing when we listen to someone, because I think we make these mistakes when we are not in touch and then able to, to process through or deal with what we're experie.

Because what you said is so true. So next week I'm gonna sit in a mediation with two friends. And in those situations I have to be very aware of my own tension because it's when I become tense and I start to feel the pressure that they want a solution from me. Right. Right. That's when I start to, you know, like, then it's like, okay, well I'll give it to you.

You know? And so if I can't sit in that place of, I don't know for a while, and let's keep talking it mm-hmm. It is usually going to be, I'm going to strike preemptively. I'm gonna send frisk somebody. Yep. Yep. All right. I got that image in the airport going with me now. Mm-hmm. Because it happened to me and it was so uncomfortable and humiliating.

Yes. All right. Number seven is Ms. Penelope responding with one upping? Okay. You have to, um, have a little bit of context to understand this one, because Penelope is an old Saturday Night Live skit, and you can look up pen Penelope, but in the skit, Penelope is always listening to what the person said and one upping them.

So, um, this would sound like you think you have it bad. My boss is not only, um, unkind to me, he makes fun of me in front of my coworkers. And so whatever they say, we have to just give a little bit more. And the skit is really funny because it's so, um, exaggerated to watch her do it. And it is so annoying.

Like, um, when you watch it, you'll be like, oh, I don't ever wanna do that. Mm. Well, we'll ask Malia to drop that in our show notes as well. Yeah. So people can access that skit easily. I look forward to watching it myself. And um, yeah, and let's just be honest, that's just annoying. Mm-hmm. I think we often can do this when we're talking about our hu, somebody's talking to us about their husbands or their children or their boss.

It's just really easy to, you know, yeah. Want, want the one up? Mm-hmm. So number eight is Ms. Spiritually saw you. Mm-hmm. A quick disciplining strike with words or expressions like, oh, that's a typo. Stop. That's, oh, okay. It's supposed to be Ms. Spiritually swat you. I was like, wow, this is roughly gonna saw you in half.

Really? We're gonna go with swat. It's a little bit nicer. I was like, I'm thinking Big Blade. I, we just saw you in half of those words. Swat. Gotcha. We're gonna swat, we're we're gonna. Smack somebody's wrist. Okay. Stop. And so the, yeah, stop it. And that's another Oh, we need, we're gonna have all these fun video clips to watch.

This is another great, I think it's Saturday Night Live too. It's um, it's the guy who plays Bob. It's Bob Newhart. And it's that, stop it. Like the woman comes in to talk about what's bothering her and she, he's her counselor and his advice is just to lean in and keep literally yelling at her, stop it. And that's all he says to her all the time.

Well, this is causing a problem. Stop it. But we do that when we just give these quick, you know, you don't have to do that. Or, you know, reminding somebody you. Well, well, don't be harsh with your words then. Just don't be harsh. You know, like, that's, that's just, I re I remember one of my favorite ones that, that somebody said that I wanted to punch them in the face was, um, I remember somebody saying, and he was saying it tongue in cheek, but um, but it still had a little, he was like, parenting's not hard.

You just have to be consistent a hundred percent of the time. And I was like, Hit you like, you know, and he was half joking. But even the fact that that, that he was joking, like just what he was saying, you know? Yeah, it's true. But who can do that? Like Yeah. We're usually, when we're swatting someone, we're telling them what they already know that they shouldn't be doing, and they're struggling to stop doing, and we are just adding to their pain because they can't stop.

Yeah. And I think for me, where this gets really played out is just when I'm in a hurry, in a rush. Mm-hmm. Just kind of that swat, it's like a fly or a nat. Mm-hmm. It's like, you know, just swat it away because it's just annoying me. It's just an annoyance. Mm-hmm. And instead of really realizing, you know, that this person is not an annoyance, they're an opportunity to minister to, so.

Mm-hmm. All right. Number nine, Ms. Gospel. Two by. Mm-hmm. A metaphorical wack. This isn't a swat, Alex. This is a wack inside the head. Mm-hmm. With the two by four piece of wood regarding your unbelief. Mm-hmm. So this would take that I think, just to another level. And it would take it like to not just looking at someone's behavior, but really getting to, I can see into your heart and your, your, your thinking and your actions are not in line with the gospel because I understand where this is coming from.

And so we. Whack 'em again before we have sat and listened and understood deeply. Mm-hmm. Yes. All right. And then number 10, we have miss theology long-winded talking about God and explaining his workings to the grieving waxing, and waning all the spiritual doctrine, you know, all the great scripture verses, you know?

Mm-hmm. And, you know, this is, this has gotta be good, Alex. Isn't that what we are? We're theological women. We wanna be theologically robust. We do. We do. And I think that, um, that there's two key points here. Of course, the long-winded, like, uh, that, that we are giving truth. It's not that, but it is, um, is it in the right time and in the right way.

But the other part is to really recognize, um, the grieving and the, the grieving cannot take in this much information. And here's the thing, um, I would probably say 95% of the people who are sitting in front of us are grieving in some way. And that really we need to be able to. Um, think about what they're saying actually in terms of grief and, and then if so, then if we do that, we recognize that long-winded theology explanations are not good for probably 95% of the people we're sitting in front of.

Because when people are hurting and in pain, they just can't take. That much in, I know with me with physical pain, I used to say my world got really small because I physically couldn't navigate many things. But the other thing that gets small is my brain capacity. Like when I'm in pain, pain does something to your brain where you, you just feel that literally fog.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Literally. And so you literally don't have capacity. So not just my world gets small, but my capacity to think through these things, these deep theological issues, gross, really small. And so it's not only not effective, it's not caring. No, I think that's good. This would be a good place though, if somebody does this to you to say Stop it.

Stop it. Yeah. You can do, give them a swap and if that doesn't work, just whack 'em with the two by four. But seriously stop. But you're over explaining to me and I think it's because you don't believe the gospel. That's right. Yes. Um. Well, listen, this has been fun and also, you know, convicting and comforting along the way.

I, I do wanna say that we have to give people a lot of grace as they're ministering to us, because a lot of times the heart's in the right place. Mm-hmm. Um, they're just missteps that are gonna happen. God gives us grace and he covers over a lot. Oh, I can't disbelieve how. Ministry missteps I've taken.

Mm-hmm. And just how God is, I don't know, he's plugged people's ears or Yes, he's made the time, like my words speed up or my words are already fast. Can you imagine that? But you know, just all the ways the Holy Spirit comes to cover in love when we don't minister well or listen well. So I, I don't want people to be afraid of this list and, mm.

Thinking like I have to have arrived at this certain place before I'm capable to walk alongside people. The reality is, is we're doing this every day. We have spiritual friendships, we have deep relationships that God has put us in. Um, and you know, the Lord is just asking us to be humble enough to grow.

And I think this is just a valuable self-assessment. Well, and and I wanna add one more thing to that, to even add to our conversation about listening. We talked about attunement, we talked about containment. There's actually a third part to attachment that I think comes to bear here, and that's called repair.

And, and, and I love this, again, this is a theory not born out of scripture and yet lines up. So, With scripture is that we can repair with each other. That, like you said, Brenda, we are going to make these mistakes. We are going to get off this podcast and do these things today, you and I after teaching it mm-hmm We will do it today, but that what strengthens relationships is not the fact that we miss people.

It's, it is not the fact that we never miss people. What strengthens relationships is that we are willing to own where we've missed them, and lean in and ask for forgiveness when it's necessary, and take responsibility for that. And that's actually what builds trust. The people I trust are not the people who perfectly perform in my life.

They're the people who I, uh, I feel free to go to and say, Hey, this was hurtful, or, I, I felt like we just completely missed each other here, and you said this, and it, it just made me feel really bad. And we can talk that out and we can work through repair. We have greatly strengthened our relationship through that process.

And so a again, this is, this is us grounding ourselves in the truth of the gospel, first and foremost, before the. That we are fully loved and accepted in him, and that's what makes us be able to move out and make these mistakes in listening over and over again. And then when we realize we did it, move into repairing with somebody, move into what reconciliation and restoration looks like.

That's great, Alex. Well, I think we're moving from our emphasis on listening. We're gonna be looking at asking questions and when to speak and maybe. How to discern what to say. Mm-hmm. In some of our next episodes, we know that these are not just, you know, four methods that run linear. They're methods that we weave in and out of as we are in relationship with people and conversations with people.

Mm-hmm. And so I'm looking forward to. Honestly having to be more convicted and make more confession. Exactly. And having the Lord comfort me in the fact that I'm A, that I'm a minister in progress.