Season 3 Episode 6

 Hi, I'm Alex. And I'm Brenda. Welcome to Conversational Counseling or Counseling and Discipleship Meet. We really want to connect people to the wonderful Counselor when we speak to them. It begins with our own walk. Uh, we have to learn to counsel ourselves from the scripture and relying on the spirit, inviting others in.

Then we need to pray and we need to ask the Lord for wisdom and discern. So we can tenderly enter into the struggles of those around us.

Brenda, this season we're talking about personal ministry, and today we're finally gonna get to the Ministry of Words. And we intentionally put this last because I think that people tend to think when we talk about personal ministry, that the first thing we're gonna do is speak. And we, we put it last on purpose because we wanted people to remember that first.

We wanna be present with people. We wanna make sure that they, um, are seeing people and knowing them well, and that we're listening well, so that we can empathize and that we're asking good questions. So we make sure that we really understand and see their whole context. So I think it's just good for us to remember that, um, these are skills that we build, not just in professional ministry.

They're not just for counselors, but they are just good frameworks for us to have meaningful conversations in our families, with our friends, even in our workplace. So today we will talk about, um, the Ministry of Words, and it's good for us to remember that. Before we do that, we need to know people well and we need to know God well, John Calvin said that all true and sound wisdom comes from knowing God and knowing ourselves.

So we spent the last three episodes giving all these skills, and today we're gonna. And we're gonna shift to talk about how we're gonna speak into a person's life. And we, we need to keep in front of us that the goal of speaking into a person's life is to not create them in our own image. Right. Right.

The goal is we want them to know and experience God in deeper ways. Um, I love what, um, Paul says, uh, to Timothy that the purpose of our instruction is that all believers would be filled with love. That comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a genuine faith. So we really wanna speak words that help other people trust God and live a life that glorifies him, pleases him, and knows him more deeply.

Exactly. And so now we come to the place that somebody has just poured out their hearts to us and what the heck are we gonna say? Because, um, as ready as we may be to speak, a lot of times we're also scared to death and don't know what to say, right? So first of all, I think we need to remember that wise council is the overflow of a wise person.

And it's not just someone who. Bible verses in facts, but it's that person who really knows how to apply the Bible to their life and they've practiced it themselves. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true. We like, we like to say like we're first a cee before we're a counselor. We're, we're first applying the knowledge in our own hearts.

And then we have to remember, I think, I think we fall into one of two ditches when we, um, when we think about speaking to someone and one ditch, we would just show concern, but we would never say anything. We just listen and ask questions. Um, we might be afraid to say the wrong thing. We might feel like we're not qualified.

Because we're aware of our own struggles. So who am I to speak into another person's life? And then the other ditch, we give lots of words. Yeah. And that probably is the ditch that I would fall into. You know, the scriptures say when words are many, sin is not absent. And I will be one of these who would be more likely to give quick directions, solutions and answers.

And, um, you know, maybe we do that because we feel compelled to answer because we're supposed to have an answer. You know, if I'm a Christian, I should know the answer, or I'm embarrassed if I don't know the answer. Or maybe you just can't stand silence. And that is true for me. If there's too much silence in the room, somebody's gotta talk.

So I'm gonna speak up. Um, but I think this can also lead to what I call sermonizing or being quick to give pat answers. And a friend told me lately that her daughter, after coming to her, you know, a lot and trying to have conversations, finally just looked at her and said, I just wish that I had a mom who I could talk to who would listen to me.

And I wasn't feeling like I was always talking to the. And I was like, ouch. Yeah. My girls used to say, mom, stop using your counselor voice. Right, right. Um, and I think the other thing is when we're quick to speak, it might be because we're drawing quick too quickly from our own experience. Mm-hmm. We think if it's works for us, um, it'll work for everyone.

And I could say that this was true of me early on in my parenting. I. All the parenting books, Alex, you know, the ones, and, um, I knew all the way to, you know, parent God's way, quote unquote. And so, um, you know, I was really good at giving quick advice because it was working. Until it didn't. Right. Cuz there comes that place in parenting or in life in general, that if you think you have formulas figured out, they get proven wrong and you have to go back to trusting God.

Mm-hmm. And then, you know, I think also there's a, you knows. Certain segment of us at times who might be overly confident or even are proud, like we want to act like we know more or something maybe than we, we really do. Mm-hmm. And, um, Paul and I one night recently watched, uh, a Netflix series on, it was Jim Carey, one was on Jim Carey and one was on Mr.

Rogers. And you know, Jim Carey's really focused on how clever he was. Mm-hmm. Or how clever he is. He's actually one of my favorite comedians cuz he is so clever. But the focus on Mr. Rogers was on being a true neighbor. And Mr. Rogers methodology is exactly what we've been talking about. How he showed love is he really showed up.

He listened, he asked questions. He was, he didn't, he didn't, uh, shy away from hard topics. Mm-hmm. And he did this with children. Alice, that is so, that is really love and skill coming together at a whole different level when you can do that with children, and as I watched him, I just couldn't help but think, I bet you this is what the Apostle Paul or even Jesus himself was like.

Yeah, very unassuming in appearance, but so kind, so loving, so willing to enter. He's a great picture of when we talk about the ditches, we need to remember we're try, we're, we're trying to stay in the middle of the road. He's a great picture of the middle of the road, just, um, he comes at people with a heart of a servant with a lot of gentleness and a lot of humility and um, and.

Like you're saying with children, one of the things I think you have to do is come ready to walk alongside them, not E. Even with children, we wanna walk alongside and have a feeling that we're collaborating together with them in the Holy Spirit, and not just that we have an answer to solve their problem.

Yeah, exactly. Well, you said it earlier and that is the best, um, counselor is first a good cee. Mm-hmm. And how we, how we go about ministering words really is dependent on wisdom and discernment from the Lord and. We, we really, before we can begin to help people really to be confident and competent to help other people, we need to know how to wrestle our own struggles before the Lord and invite the Lord in.

So we first need to sit at the feet of the wonderful counselor, Jesus. As we spend time in his word and we gain his wisdom, he is wisdom, he is truth. He is the life, he is the way. Um, Paul tells us in Colossians that all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ. Hmm. And so we need to walk with Christ first, um, and be counseled by him if we're gonna be prepared to walk with other people.

And then secondly, we first have to rely on the Holy Spirit to give us discernment, to know how to rightly divide his word and apply it to everyday life. Just think about have, have I experienced the comfort of the Lord? Have I experienced his encouragement? Have I been challenged and felt his conviction, um, that that needs to start with me.

I need to have a sense of what that's like in my own life, in relationship with the Lord when I'm seeking to help somebody else. And then we first need to know what it's like to be accountable to other believers. Mm-hmm. Um, I recently was struck by a story in First Corinthians where King David, it mentions him having both a confidant.

And a counselor. Mm-hmm. And I thought it was so good because I thought we need counselors to advise us. This might be an older, godly, more mature believer, or it could be a, you know, a professional, but we also need confidence. These are our intimate friends that aren't gonna go away, but are gonna stick by our side, and they're gonna go the distance with us.

Yeah. I like that. Oh, I'm sorry. No, go ahead. I was gonna say, um, We, we make sure that we first are going there and it reminds me of the saying of, um, we can't take somebody where we haven't gone. Yes. And it really guards us against hypocrisy, like you're saying, is like we make sure that we are putting ourselves in these places and that we are not telling somebody something else that we're not willing to do ourselves.

Yeah, I agree and, and I think it's really important when we bring other people into our lives, we are getting a sense of what it looks like to be held accountable or to receive comfort from someone, or to be challenged by someone, or encouraged. And I think it really helps to make us maybe more patient, more careful, more sensitive with the heart of another person.

Continue to seek wisdom and not just knowledge. So knowledge is our tools, but wisdom is being able to apply those tools with, um, understanding. And the way that we do that is that we go to God's word because it is the foundation of our wisdom. Yeah, exactly. I loved on my Israel trip, our tour guide, Marty would always say, we'd be reading the text and we'd be talking about the scriptures and we'd be asking questions.

And one of his little mantras is, it's in the text. It's in the text, you know, but we have to know where to find it. To share it. We have to, um, you know, we have to know God's word. There really is no, we talk about the ministry of words. We can have words, but we're talking about the ministry of words. There is no ministry of words without the word of God.

Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, we need to be so encouraged by the power of God's word. We don't need to minimize that, like God's word is powerful. And even this morning, I was just meditating on Psalm one 19 in preparation of our time together, and I love verse 24 that says, your statutes are my delight. They are my counselors.

Yeah, that's really good. And one thing I think we have to be careful of is to recognize that, um, while God's word is the basis for everything we say, it doesn't address every issue that we encounter. So our wisdom, our personal wisdom is limited. And then we have to remember that they're gonna be places where we need to encourage people to.

Seek advice from other people where we're not experts and hopefully we're, we're se we're encouraging people to seek advice from people who are still coming from a biblical worldview so that they're coming from the same wisdom that we are, but recognizing that people may need legal advice or medical advice or financial advisor and that we.

Humble enough to recognize that we don't have all the answers and we can find people who do. Yeah. That really happened to me recently. I was counseling, um, a mom whose husband is divorcing her, but she has spent her life in her marriage raising their special needs son. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, she was asking a lot of.

Legal questions about her husband filing for divorce. I, I don't, I don't know the law, Alex, so, you know, I was encouraging her to consult with a good attorney and there were a lot of questions about how were they gonna walk their son through the divorce, knowing the particulars of his condition and how, of course it would be hard for any child.

But for this child in particular, there were some real special needs. And again, Know his condition. I'm not, you know, versed in how to deal with children with special needs. And so I was really encouraging her to go back and speak to her child's therapist, her child's teachers, um, tho those kind of people, uh, that would be more helpful.

And then as she gathered that information, I said, bring it back and I'll try to help you process it. We'll pray through it. We'll see if the scripture offers any insights to the council that you've been given. But I, you know, I think a another way that's really helpful. We, we often talk about team counseling mm-hmm.

Where we invite others in. And so even if it's not a, you know, uh, kind of outside council, some situations, uh, just. I think any situation almost is great if you have more than one person speaking into it and walking with someone. But the more difficult the situation, the better it is to have more people to kind of grow a team, if you will.

Mm-hmm. And so, um, one of the examples that I had recently as well is I was meeting with a woman who has adopted, she and her husband adopted an older child who had experienced a lot of trauma in his life and, um, I was able to connect her with another, Who also was ahead of her, but had adopted a child with.

Trauma in her life, and I sat on the zoom call. All I did was make the introduction and then I sat there quietly for an entire hour as I witnessed these two moms speak back and forth. And Alex, they were speaking a language of their own, like a heart language about their situation that they both understood that I didn't have language.

And it was just beautiful. So I think there can be great value if we can help connect people with other people who may know their struggle in trials. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we're just to kind of, um, sum up wisdom is that we're saying we find wisdom in God's word and we find wisdom. Stem by the direction of the Holy Spirit with other people.

Yes. And so we recognize our limitations, and maybe that's the wisest thing we can do is recognize that we're limited. Yes. And then kind of tangentially, we need discernment. And it's been hard for me sometimes to think about what the difference between wisdom and discernment is. But, um, discernment.

Because discernment still comes from knowing God's word. It comes from being in relationship with Holy Spirit. But, um, discernment, I think is the ability to, I only people on, on the video can see, but like pull it apart. See it clearly and to be able to, um, recognize how to address a problem because we can't go into conversations with people thinking that we are going to know what to say before we speak to them.

If we do, we're gonna miss them. Yeah. And so we need to be. Um, just open to the direction of the Holy Spirit in the moment. The way you and I have talked about this in the past is we say that this is not just a dialogue, it's a dialogue. We're mm-hmm. We're speaking and interacting with the Holy Spirit as the conversation is moving along.

And so, um, I think as we do that, what we recognize is another reason we can't go into a conversation knowing exactly what we're gonna say is because, People's problems are very complex. People are complex. We are complex, and we can't go in thinking there are just these clear cut black and white answers all the time.

They very rarely are. There are a lot of shades of gray. I think the older I get, the more I realize that things are not as black and white as I even want 'em to be. Right. And so, um, we're not talking about God's clear commands, but we are talking about when we get in the midst of situations, how we apply those commands is not always clear cut.

Right? So, um, there's a quote that says that true discernment means not only distinguishing right from wrong, it means distinguishing primary from secondary. Essential from indifferent and permanent from transient. So yes, it means distinguishing between the good and the better, but even between the better and the best.

Sinclair Ferguson said that, and I think that's really helpful, is that when we're sitting before someone, we're trying to wade through and pull apart all those things. Mm-hmm. And we're trying to listen well and respond to the Holy Spirit in the moment. Yeah. I see this all the time. And to your point, it would be nice if things, if everything was black and white.

Yes. Um, but it's not, and it's messy. A lot of times when we enter into other people's lives and stories, it's messy and it's okay. It's okay that it's messy, it's okay that they wrestle, we wrestle with them. And, um, in. My situation, I have a lot of opportunity to minister to loved ones that are of loved ones.

People who are loving people with substance abuse issues. That's what I'm trying to say. And um, you know, it's often not black and white. Mm-hmm. There's often a lot of gray. What may be helpful one day. May down the road actually be enabling on another day. And so it takes a lot of discernment to navigate and not only the situation, but the motivations of a person's heart.

Yeah. And helping them discover that. And then I think the other part of this is that we, we don't wanna. Um, interpret or only give counsel through our own grid of experience. Just because we've faced the same experience doesn't mean, um, you know, that we or that we face the same situation doesn't mean that we've experienced that situation exactly like the other person has.

Yeah. And so there's just a lot of room. Um, for prayer, and this is where I do think prayer is so important because God is going to direct as we seek him very specifically for the person that we're, we're dealing with. There's not a one size fits all in many situations. Mm-hmm. Uh, we need to be, use a lot of discretion and help people discover for themselves, you know, where God is leading.

Yeah. And one of the reasons why not everyone's experience of the same situation is the same. Why it's different is because the, the attitude of our hearts, our, our thoughts, our desires are different as we come into those situations. And so, When we are sitting with someone and listening, well, we're gonna look for patterns and themes.

We're gonna look for characteristics of a person's thoughts and beliefs and actions so that we can understand the way they may approach a situation and experience it completely differently. And in listening for that, we're really listening for where their gaps of understanding are between their story and God's story.

Yeah, and I think understanding. Is also, at least in part, um, why we need to use biblical language and categories wherever possible. Mm-hmm. Um, our friend Sherry likes to say, if you can name it, you can tame it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And even those secular words and categories, you know, they can be helpful, but biblical language is always going to orient us toward God's story.

And it's just, I think, more helpful. It also is more helpful because we can be on the same, kind of the same team knowing. Definitions mean sometimes when we use secular language, a definition can mean a lot of different things to different people. But even within biblical categories, I think that's an important distinction.

Are we, am I saying the same thing that you're saying just because we're using the same language? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a great point. I know recently the word that you hear a lot is like narcissism or narcissist or something. Yeah. That's the one I was thinking of. Yeah. And so I think there's almost like even this.

Fear of like, uh, when someone says, oh my, you mean you think that so and so that I'm dealing with is a narcissist? Like that's somehow outside of God's reach. Like, oh, if they're a narcissist, then they'll never change, you know? And I said, well, really, narcissism is just selfishness to an extreme. Exactly.

Um, we are all on that continuum. And God has a lot to say about our selfish hearts. Like, yes, he does. It's not that God can't, doesn't address this or that he can't reach this person because this, we're, we're, we're all here just to what degree. And so I think it in some ways when we use bi biblical categories, we demystify things or we de um, uh, what is it?

We make things feel less, um, Threatening because God's word's not threatened by these categories. Yeah. Yeah. I heard, I think as Heath Lambert, this says, there are no hard cases for God. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, and it's true. And particularly like you said, once we put something in biblical language, we can kind of wrap our mind around it.

And begin to understand, well, not this but this. Mm-hmm. You know, um, I think, you know, one of the things we just need to remember when we're talking about ministering the word is that this is a process where we're gonna continue throughout the process to listen and ask questions. Um, and I think we also have to remember, we're not trying to find answers for the person necessarily, but with them, yeah.

I think of a thousand mistakes I've made when I hear you say me too, of things that I've tried to impose on someone else because I have the answer for them. Yeah. And I've forgotten that this is, um, this is a collaboration with the person and with the Holy Spirit, and so I'm not coming alongside, I'm coming over them with a solution to their problem.

Yep.

Yeah. Yeah.

Know everything. We can do this together. I'll journey alongside you. We'll figure it out together. Let's ask, let's go to the Lord together and to recognize that at the end of the day, this is, this person's walk with the Lord and they have to live with their decision. So I find myself saying the longer I am involved in working with people in personal ministry, I find myself saying to people, um, you know, here are some ideas, but the, you know, this is your decision, or, I'm not gonna answer your question, because a lot of times people want you to do that.

Hmm. Just tell, please, just tell me what to do. And it, and I find myself more and more saying, I'm probably gonna frustrate you because I'm not going to tell you what to do. We're just gonna talk about some principles. And when we're doing that, we're inviting them in to the place of seeking wisdom and discernment.

Mm-hmm. And we're, um, you know, we are asking them to sit in the complexity, which is a tense place for them to do. Mm-hmm. And we, we can recognize that the more. Invite people into that place, the more support that they need. Mm-hmm. But that we can let them sit in the complexity of it. Yeah, exactly. I was just thinking when we rush in to answer the questions, we really robbed them of intimacy.

Yeah. With God. Yeah. And maybe even connection with other people. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, that need to support them. I was thinking recently about a young man that I was helping who had probably just one of the most severe cases of O C d Obsessive Compulsive Disorder to the point that it was impacting all of his relat.

Excuse me. All of his relationships in his daily life, uh, his ability to function and so, you know, there was so much I didn't understand Alex, and this ca case was so complex that. We spent a lot of time together asking a lot of questions. I did a lot of research on my own, but in the end, we just realized we need more help.

Mm-hmm. And so I found a counselor who specialized in O C D and that counselor was not a Christian, but they were somebody who really understand, understood like the physiological dynamics of how anxiety can hijack the brain. To that level. Mm-hmm. Um, his general practitioner, we had a psychiatrist looking at meds.

His wife, we created a text thread with, uh, spiritual friends who were coming alongside and supporting both of them. They had a different text thread for both the husband and the wife, cuz she needed a lot of support. And then, you know, for me as the biblical counselor, I felt like maybe I was a little bit like the quarterback.

Yeah. Just kind of saying, Hey, go there. Okay, now let's talk, let's pray. Okay. What did this person say? What did this person kind of bringing it all together under just the umbrella and recognition that God was in it. God was in control, God was caring for them, God was providing for them, and just continuing, continuing to point them to Jesus in the midst of this big mess, but inviting a lot of other people in to help as.

That's really good. So Brenda, at some point in the Ministry of words, we're going to have to say something. Yep. So what do we say? Yeah. Well, I think, you know, um, one of the, the often overlooked and simple answers is we can pray with someone, right? That, uh, praying with someone is always appropriate, especially when the pain is so great that they don't know how to pray themselves.

I remember last summer, I was just in a situation that was incredibly painful. I was in a lot of grief and despair, and the Lord just continued to bring to me some dear saints who knew me and knew my struggle, and they stepped in to intercede for me with me. Mm-hmm. And each time they prayed, Um, I had just experienced the love of God in such a tender and sweet way.

They knew at that point I wasn't in a position, nor did I really need a lot of counsel. I just needed to know that they loved me. I needed to know that God loved me. And really, I just needed some help expressing and giving words to the pain that I was in. And prayer is a beautiful way to, to do that with someone.

In that moment. But, um, we know that, that giving hope to somebody is really bringing them to Jesus. I mean, it is lowering the mat and putting them in front of Jesus and reminding, uh, them of the character of God, the promises of God, our union with Christ, all that God, um, is and has done for us. And so in Hebrews, it says, we have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place.

And this is the assurance that God will be true to his promises. That, that God cannot go against his own character. He is faithful and he will not go against his own character. And so that idea of just, um, hanging on to hope and giving them the hope that we have in their situation is often. All that we can do, all that we can give.

Hmm. I love that idea of borrowed hope. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It really is so sweet. It really has the idea of carrying one another's burdens. Mm-hmm. Right? Like I'll take on some of your burden and I'll give you some of my hope. Yeah, yeah. And that'll lighten the load for you. It'll make my load heavier. That's part of personal ministry is your load will be heavier cuz you'll carry somebody else's load.

But when we begin to divide that load out among one other person, another person. Um, I know the other day we were carrying a piece of furniture up to our Airbnb and you know, I couldn't pick it up by myself, but my husband got on the other side and it was like, whoop, and we just right up the steps we went.

And so it is really amazing. If you think about just having one other person to help carry something, what a game changer that is. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good. Well, the other way we can minister the word is through one of our favorite models that we keep talking about. Cause it's, it's such a great framework.

And that's the Saint Sufferer Center framework. And we've kind of put some, uh, words to those categories, if you will. Like for Saint, we think about, and of course we love alliteration, cheer, you know, or encourage and then, Suffer. We have comfort. And for the sinner we have the word challenge. So when we think about saints suffer center, we can think about how do I comfort, or how do I cheer somebody, encourage them, how can I comfort them?

Or maybe how can I come along and challenge them? And so the first one is Saint. You know, God has given us so many great precious promises from his word to encourage. To cheer us on. And Alex, you know, I'm an, I'm an exhorter by gifting and so I love to be a cheerleader and I love to, I mean, pompom megaphone parade, let's do the whole darn thing.

Mm-hmm. Um, and people really need that. And one of the areas that I really see, Is in the area of justification. Um, you know, this is where God has declared us righteous in Christ, but I still think so many of us are trying to earn or gain his approval. Mm-hmm. And, uh, a friend of mine, you know, was reminding herself that her approval comes from Jesus even while she was getting criticized at work.

Right. And so we can see ourselves just all the time. It just seems to be. Mindset that we have, that we need to work for approval instead of working from approval. So that's one way we can cheer others on is to be like, you don't have to do that. You know you are perfect in Christ and you have all the approval you will ever need or desire, or long for.

And then just encouraging people in their sanctification, um, how they are growing and being transformed to be closer to God. A lot of people think that this needs to be instantaneous. I sit with a lot of people who are so frustrated that they're not further along. What's wrong with me? I was talking to a lady the other day and she was trying to find all these tools, like she was gonna fix herself in this, you know, like fix herself.

And I was like, I don't know that this is gonna get fixed. I think over time you're gonna be changed and, and be, and know more about Jesus and you're gonna trust him more. And a result, result of trusting him more, then you're gonna live a life more pleasing to him. But, um, You know, I just think that that's an area in sanctification that we need to encourage people to be kind of kind and patient to themselves as God is kind and patient to them as well.

And then in glorification, you know, how do they, how do we see them living for or in light of eternity? And um, you know, something just as simple as saying, I know this trial is hard, but you've really held onto the hope of heaven. Mm-hmm. I mean, just allowing. That, that we see that even as they're struggling and they're wrestling currently, um, that there is hope there and they're holding onto that hope and that can really encourage someone to keep moving forward.

When we point that out, they may not even recognize that, but when we recognize that in them, yeah. So when we are in, when we're speaking into the life of someone as a saint, we're wanting to catch them doing good. We're try, we're trying to see the good that's already at work in their lives and, and point it out to them.

And I don't know about you, but you know, we were just talking about hope. Nothing's more hopeful to me than when someone can see growth in me that I can't see. Yes. The spirit is at work in you and I see it. So I love, and I, and that's your forte. You get out the palm moms, that's a thing. I forget, like I'm a teacher by trade, not a cheerleader.

I'm gonna go in and I'm ready to teach a lesson and often I need to pause and just say, wait. What's the spirit already doing here? Like, let, let, let me, let me remind you of what's already at work that I see in your life. And then when we talk to people as sufferers, what we're really trying to zero in on is how we comfort.

And, um, sometimes we just comfort by just reminding them that we're there, we're in it with them. Mm-hmm. And sometimes we comfort by encouraging them to lament. I, I don't know about you, but I think over the last two or three years I have talked more about lament and encouraged people more towards Lament than any other single.

Um, to really recognize that when they pour out their heart before the Lord, it's not just an exercise of doing something, but they are actually positioning themselves to receive the comfort of the Lord in that moment and to be known by him and know that they're loved in that place. And then another way I think that, Comfort people is that we try to normalize their suffering.

We wanna, um, you know, just remind them of that this is life in a fallen world. Yeah. And that they are not outside of the reach of the effects of the fall. And we, we, you know, we just try to. Um, not react as if what they're going through is, um, oh my goodness, that's terrible. But we, we really try to lean in and say, this is just really hard and it is okay for you to say that it is hard.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think in my own life I always thought that change only came from me being challenged. Mm-hmm. And finding my sin and doing the, you know, partnering with God and my sanctification and the last 12 years of my own life have taught me that deep change comes from deep comfort. There is a way that God changes us in comfort because we come to trust.

In such beautiful, beautiful ways and that changes us. Um, well let's just talk about the sinner, cuz we gotta talk about the sinner eventually. Alex, we're gonna, because we all are sinners, um, and we wanna challenge people not because we're being harsh or, um, mean, but because we understand that, you know, sin does.

Damage. It hurts our relationship with God. It hurts our relationship with other people. It hurts us. And so, um, I, and I think a lot of times we think about chall a, a challenge as being like a direct confrontation. Um, but it's really an invitation. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we, we need to point people to repentance.

They do need to confess their sin. Mm-hmm. They do need to ask for forgiveness. They do need to believe what God says about them. They do need to love. And, um, in fact, we have a, I think a really great podcast on this called the Gospel Waltz. Mm-hmm. About when Christ challenges us and invites us into change.

That I would, um, just say I think would be really worth listening to if you haven't heard it. But I think the other thing I would just like to say about challenge is that a challenge, let's just think about that word. In it comes this idea of this is gonna be hard. Yeah. Um, so I think it's just like we, we can normalize suffering.

I think we need to normalize, like wrestling with sin is normal and change can be hard. Mm-hmm. And that's okay. God is not afraid of that. We are not afraid of that. We can continue to walk this out with the person in front of us over and over and over again, and as long as they truly are seeking the Lord, then change will come.

God is committed to our change. It may not happen as fast as we want. But it will eventually come and through the process, we, we kind of wanna get to the change sometimes, but we don't need to miss that. In that process of change is where Christ is meeting us. I love what Tim Keller says when he says repeated repentance is progress.

Hmm. I think repeat is repeated. Repentance also brings us into greater intimacy with our walk with Jesus. Mm-hmm. Uh, when I'm thinking about challenging someone, I'm thinking about Dan all's teaching. I love, I love to watch Stan Islander interact with another person, and one of the phrases he uses a lot is, can I disrupt you?

And No, you just, you just better be ready if you say yes to Dan all. Yes, Dan Aller, you can disrupt me. You better hang on. Because he is going to challenge a belief or a viewpoint, or even an attitude or action in your life, and so you better be ready. But I love this idea that we're inviting people to something and that sometimes we even ask them like, are you willing for me to disrupt something right now?

Mm-hmm. You kinda like a little cue, like this is not gonna be comfortable and it's okay. You're gonna That's right. We're, we're gonna be okay. So I, I just love, I love, I've grown to love that word disruption and it also, to me, puts it in perspective. This is not the end of the world that you are not getting this right.

You know, this is a disruption here that, that needs you to just stop and reconsider something. So it's always hard to speak into people's lives, and I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for, um, tips and I'm looking for other people who have gone this way before me and say what we've tried to do.

Three known ministries is to have a lot of resources. We have some on our website. We're trying to add more to our social media posts. And then, um, these podcasts are just ways to equip you to handle, um, hard conversations, to learn, um, the personal ministry of the word. And so we hope that, um, even today, this is, uh, another tool in your tool belt to help you be able to speak wisely into another person's life.

Yeah. Well this has been a great conversation, Alex, and I just think about, um, you know, We kind of start off with the goal, and I wanna make sure that we don't miss that. We really want to connect people to the wonderful counselor when we speak to them, to help them have a greater trust in the Lord, so that way their lives will be pleasing to the Lord.

It begins with our own walk. Uh, we have to learn to counsel ourselves from the scripture and relying on the spirit, inviting others in. And then we need to pray and we need to ask the Lord for wisdom and discernment so we can tenderly enter into the struggles of those around. And a few ways that we've talked about coming alongside other people is to pray with them, to give them hope, um, and remember, uh, words that will really speak to them as St.

Suffer centers. Words of encouragement, words of comfort, maybe challenge that they need, where they're stuck in a sin, uh, or have a sinful pattern. And, um, yeah, so we really hope these ministry methods of presence listening, asking questions and words, just really become a part of your daily conversations.