Season 3 Episode 5

Hi, I'm Alex. And I'm Brenda. Welcome to Conversational Counseling or Counseling and Discipleship Meet. Feeling misunderstood is one of the hardest things to me. Easing our questions to know people and their contexts well, and like we said, to help them know themselves well.

So often we don't ask the next question, but are we willing to be that? Who's willing to ask the next question?

Well, Brandon, we're in the middle of our season about personal ministry and um, we've been talking about ways that we minister the word to one another, how we show up and be present for one another, how we listen well. And um, today we're gonna talk about how we ask good questions and we've really.

Thinking a lot about the fact that we're part of a holy healing community. So there are a lot of communities that bring a measure of healing to people, but being a holy community means that we're set apart by God. And so when we show up, We are showing up with the spirit of God, demonstrating the love of God and leading people to the truth of God.

So we are really like no other community in the world. As I said, we talked about, um, the ministry of Presence. We talked about listening. And before we begin probing around in somebody's lives with these good questions, we wanna ask. We need to make sure that people feel safe and that they feel heard. So today we are gonna talk about the ministry of asking good questions, and I think there's gonna be a lot of different applications for this, um, information.

I agree. I'm really excited about this episode. Um, but you know, Alex, I think we've been talking about the, the methodology that we are proposing is actually a ministry, not just a method. So when we talk about the ministry of asking good questions, how exactly is this a ministry? Well, I like what Kurt Thompson says.

He says that when we ask good questions, we allow other people to tell their story more truly. And to me, that means that asking good questions help people first to actually look inside and see themselves more clearly. And then to be able to articulate their stories well and to be able to articulate their story more, um, truly, or more really is that, if that's the word, more as close to the, to, to the real thing as it is.

So, um, just like we don't wanna take one verse out of context of scripture, we don't wanna take a person out of context of their whole story. And that's why the goal is to be able to see them and to understand their whole story more. Tru. Right. And that's why good questioning ask, asking is gonna be so important.

I think about back in the day when I used to do, um, you know, precepts bible study, their mantra was context is king. Mm-hmm. You know, and I love that context is king and Bible study, but context is king is. And also, you know, when we're talking to people, um, we had a funny story happen recently. A friend recommended that Paul and I watched the Hulu series, the Bear, uh, and five minutes into it, you might be familiar with it.

At five minutes into it, we were so confused. We were having the hardest time understanding the plot. And the characters and we kept looking at each other thinking like we are missing some really big pieces here. And um, apparently as we got to the end and the credits roll and, you know, all the information comes up, another user on our account had already watched the first seven episodes.

So when we had hit play, you know, the episode, we were actually playing the grand finale of the season. And let me just tell you without context, the episode made very. Sense. Yeah. And so that's what we're trying to avoid when we deal with people. We want to understand them clearly. We want to understand them well.

And this is gonna take gathering good data and information. Well, did you go back and watch the rest of the season? No, because I, I kind of feel like it ruined the whole thing. It's like, well, we know how it ends. Um, it's awesome. We did watch it. I recommend it. It's a little raw, but, um, it's a great character portrayal.

If you can get, get past the language. Yeah, it's very raw. It's very raw. But you're right, it is a good, it is a good study of people and um, I think we, we might would've enjoyed it, but any rate, yeah. So back to questions. Yeah. Um, we're using questions to draw people out. We just remember that scripture says that, um, we need to ask good questions and we don't need to make assumptions about people like Brenda.

Assumption that she's at the beginning of the season and not the end. And proverb says if one gives an answer before he hears it is his folly and shame. And we need to remember that. Um, we don't wanna make assumptions. We also need to remember that people who are in pain, Often want to hide. When I'm in pain, I isolate myself and, um, good questions are gonna draw them out.

They're going to allow them to, um, gently, um, reenter relationship. And so, um, we just wanna be really sensitive to the context of our questions when we're asking. Yeah, and recently, you know, I made really cardinal mistake number one, which is to make assumptions without asking questions. Mm-hmm. I was talking to a postpartum mom who had a a toddler, and while she was in church, she texted me this message, struggling with all the sacrifices I have, realizing I'm really selfish with my time and going to church and being able to be present.

The baby still needs me so much I can't be present because I'm just catering to him and I'm allowing it to really frustrate me and I don't want it. Well, I read that and honestly, Alex, based on my own personal experience, I read it like she felt bad that she couldn't go back to her old church life really quickly.

Because I remember when I was a postpartum mom, I would see these moms who would have their baby, you know, like on Monday and they'd be back in worship on Sunday. And I felt the pressure to be that mom. Mm-hmm. So I responded with how it wasn't selfish, you know, to prioritize the needs of her family over church in this season.

I was really encouraging her to cut herself some slack. But I actually learned that was not the issue when she wrote back. I was feeling selfish because I wanna be at church and, and focused and not caring for my kids right now and their needs. I just wanted to sit in church. I'm distracted. And so I got so tickled.

I thought, oh, well my interaction with this sweet mama would've been much different if I had not made assumptions and maybe if I had asked a few clarifying questions. Yeah, I like it. We. Yeah, we do it. And, and I like that. Um, uh, I'm sure that this mama gave you grace when you, she did miss her. But when people are in pain and we ask them questions or we make assumptions and not ask good questions and we miss them, it can, it can really be hurtful.

Yes. So what we wanna talk about today is kind of as we've done before, we wanna. A framework and we wanna give some tools for asking questions. And the framework that we wanna give for asking questions is to think about questions in terms of being extensive and intensive. Um, extensive would be like, um, going, uh, asking a little about a lot.

Going wide, so to speak. And intensive would mean going deep. So one of my favorite verses about asking questions has always been the purposes of a man's heart are deep waters. Hmm. But one who has insight draws them out. I think for the first, no, no exaggeration, five years of counseling, I prayed this regularly that the Lord would make me a person who could draw out the purposes of another man's heart.

And so sometimes that's gonna. That we do go wide to make sure we get the whole picture, that we go extensive. But it also that those are gonna be like fact finding questions like who, what, when, where, why kinds of things. And then it also means we're gonna begin to go deep and we're gonna drill down a little bit and we're gonna ask, um, a lot about a little.

And so we're, we're gonna, did I say that right? A lot. Uh, a lot about, a little. So we're gonna, we're gonna drill down into one area and ask a lot of questions that will help to give, um, details that'll unearth the deeper purposes of a man's heart. Mm-hmm. And Alex, I just wanna, you know, say that God has answered that prayer.

In your life. It's really sweet. And you know, I know that you've been a great question asker in my own life. As I've struggled with issues, I've seen how you use questions in the lives of other people, and you certainly have taught me a lot. So I love that you prayed that, because I think we might not think that that's a skill.

Mm-hmm. And. That we can ask the Lord, who is the most skilled question asker right. To, um, impart to us. So I love that. Well, I thought that maybe, uh, we would take a look at a case study from scriptures. Mm-hmm. Uh, about a woman that maybe a lot of us have heard of, but don't know too much about. And as I began to dig into her story, I was really astonished about what I found.

Um, it was, it's the story of David's first wife. I'm gonna call her Mikal. She can be Michael, she can be Mikal. She can mm-hmm. I think there's like four or five different ways. We're just gonna call her Mikal for our purposes. Um, she's really best known for the contempt she showed toward King David at his shameless dancing when he, uh, when the arc of the covenant.

Brought into Jerusalem and I was really thinking if Mical came to counseling, and this is the story that we heard about her, um, you know, we might counsel her as a very disrespectful wife, Uhhuh, like, wow, you just rebuked your husband and he's the king and you know, all he was doing was dancing. Even the joy of the Lord.

Um, and so we might really only view her as a center. But the Bible has a lot more, um, to say about her story and it is really a tragic story. And as we begin to unravel the entire, um, understanding of her life, we really see a much different picture of a woman who was responding out of a tremendous amount of pain.

Mm-hmm. So I thought I would just share a little bit about her. And, um, then, you know, we can talk again thinking about extensive and intensive questioning. Mm-hmm. Um, so we want, wanna get some of her background. She was King Saul's daughter, who was basically meant she was a political pawn to be married and given in marriage for political alliances.

Uh, she was a woman in this culture too, you know, with very little to no rights. Um, the Bible says that she was in love with King David. And Alex is the only place in the Bible that it says A woman is in love with a man. The word, I think it's so intriguing. Yeah, I know. So like the word in First Samuel 1820 is often translated like passionately in love.

Hmm. Like she loved this man and wanted to marry him, but there's never any mention that David felt the same way about. Mm-hmm. So we're kind of setting the stage for what's coming. Okay. So already just that one piece of information changes the picture of her, right? Just right the thing. Mm-hmm. Just that one thing.

Um, also to recognize that her brother Jonathan, was David's best friend. So there's some other people saw is her father who hates David and is trying to kill him. So there's other, you know, people and players in her story, and we wanna understand how they're relating to her, how they're relating to David and the situ.

Well, um, the whole story is in first and second Samuel, but to make a long story short, um, she ends up, um, being given to David in marriage. And, um, David, you know, at the risk of her own life, there's a situation where she, um, hides him and gets him away from danger. And once he leave, The dangerous situation.

He abandons her. He never comes back to get her as his wife. Mm. Not only that, but he takes oth, she learns that he takes other wives, he takes other women. Mm-hmm. Well, enough time goes on that King Saul eventually marries her off to another man. Wow. And we're gonna learn from the story that it's a man who actually really loves her.

But eventually Alex King, Saul dies. Mm-hmm. And David goes back and reclaims Michael or Miha, uh, to ensure his position of power. He basically rips her from the husband. Who loves, who ne, who loves her. And we know this because the Bible tells us. It just gives me goosebumps. It really just makes me wanna cry.

And I think about this tragic story. I mean, the only thing I ever knew about her is that she just rebuked her husband because, like, I didn't know all this about her. Um, but he weeps, he follows them, dragging her off out of his home. He follows weeping until the commander of the army says, you better go back.

Probably like you're gonna die. Yep. Mm-hmm. You, you better turn around and then after David gets her back, he goes and kills her. Only surviving and little brother. Mm. Mm-hmm. So now that we understand more of the entire story, we get a better understanding of why she despised David in her heart. The scriptures say that, that she despised and her rebuke of him dancing was probably more the result of pent up hurt and anger and grief.

Mm-hmm. You know, that came pouring out than just the incident of what happened then. Mm-hmm. And finally, let me just go to say that her story goes on to end even more tragically, she remains childless, which likely means she was put in the harem and never got to experience the love or intimacy of David or any other man.

Wow. Mm-hmm. I feel like I need to repent for judging because so harsh, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, exactly what we said, like we plucked her or I plucked her straight outta context. Remembered one thing about her. Yes. That really in many ways, what you're saying when you give the rest of the story didn't characterize her life.

And I really feel a lot of empathy towards her reaction to David now that I know her context, her whole story. And I think that that's just such a great example, Brenda, of what we do on a really daily basis with other people. Yep. We pluck them out of the context of their story. Often because times because we're reading them in the context of our own story and not theirs.

And um, and then we miss them. We misunderstand them. And we misinterpret them. And I don't know about you, but I think the reason that story hits me so hard is that feeling misunderstood is one of the hardest things to me. Yes. Yes, definitely. I feel like somebody, not just they missed me, but they misunderstood me and they've assigned motive or, um, mm-hmm.

Or, or other thoughts to me that aren't true, that that is one of the hardest things for me. And so we just wanna continue to make sure that we're using our questions to know people well. We're not, we're not talking about using questions to satisfy our own curiosity. Right, right. That's a little mercenary.

We're we're talking about using. Our questions to know people in their context well, and like we said, to help them know themselves well. So just like we gave this framework of intensive and extensive, we wanna give a tool for, uh, one for intensive and one for extensive. And we're gonna start with extensive.

And that is the wide going wide. So we wanna make sure, like you did with Mikel, that we're kind of looking at her across, um, all different areas of her life. And so we use this acronym called Preach. And so there's a lot we can say with every letter, but we're gonna try to go through these and explain what they are.

And I think we'll even do a handout so that people will have this in front of them and be able to see the information. But the acronym makes it easy to remember that PREACH stands for physical relationships, emotions, activity, um, conceptions or conceptual and history. And so we're gonna think a little bit about each category.

Yeah. And I just wanna say too, um, Alex, this is developed by Wayne Mack. Mm-hmm. Um, and not our own material, but I know for me it was one of the tools that I used extensively. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When I first really began to. Think about asking questions and looking at the whole person. So the first one is P is physical.

And just a few things that we want to think about is what is somebody's basic self-care. Sleep is so important. If they're not sleeping, we got problems. What's their diet look like? If they've got a lot of anxiety and depression, are they exercising? We're gonna look at health concerns. We want to know do they have sickness?

You know, are they going through chemotherapy? Do they have a thyroid issue? Are they on medications that might, um, you know, even. Um, Uh, caused some anxiety and depression. And I know, um, recently I was dealing with a woman who came in with severe depression and anxiety, and for six months we kind of probed around all these different areas of her life and she was seeking medical attention.

The more I was with her, the more I was like, this is something physical, not spiritual. And sure enough, she has adrenal gland issues and is gonna get her one of her adrenals removed. So, um, do they have a substance abuse issue because that's really going to impact them in every area. Do they have some sort of diagnosis or, you know, a special, uh, need?

I think about like an somebody with autism, um, somebody with severe O C D. Oftentimes when the body is, um, diverse or when the body, the brain is hijacked, somebody may be more unable than it is that they're unwilling, uh, to change. And I think just in the. Oftentimes when we're dealing with someone, particularly if it's a high stress situation, we need to kind of check in with them and say, how are you?

How is your body feeling right now? How are your emotions? Yeah. Because it might even be helpful to let them get up and walk a little bit or have a little squeezy ball to, you know, to squeeze or something like that, to release a little bit of, of the physical tension that could be happening. Yeah, that's a great point.

So you're not only checking to make sure you're asking the questions about their life, but you're even asking it in the moment of what's going on with you physically. Mm-hmm. Yes, correct. Okay. And then ours for relationships. And really we just want to know something about their relationship with God.

You know, how they came to faith and what their walk their views of God and what their walk with God looks like. We wanna know about their marriage. If they're married. We wanna know about relationships with their children, even if they're adult children, other significant relationships in their life. And then also who's supporting them in their particular struggle.

Mm-hmm. You know, what are their people resources? We look at people often as a, um, We don't think of them oftentimes as a resource, but people are among our greatest resources as we know, cuz they're one of our superpowers. Yeah, that's good. And then E is emotions. And we're going to again, check in and see what emotions are currently being triggered within the time that we're spending with the person.

But then we wanna ask questions about how they handle emotions. Are they feeling oriented people, faith oriented people? Um, What desires are ruling their hearts. So when we're thinking about emotions, we are also thinking about the broader, um, aspect of a affections. And so that this gets into our desires.

Um, what do you want, what do you desire, what do you fear? So these are kind of taking, taking this, um, extensive questioning a little bit deeper to be, begin to examine their emotions. And then a is activity. So this is. Just looking at what are, what's their daily and weekly routine like, what responsibilities do they have?

Do they Sabbath regularly? Do they have rhythms of rest? What behaviors or activity are they engaged in that are sinful? What, what, what behaviors are they not engaged in? That would be the senses of omission that are sinful. So we're looking at all different forms of activity. Um, and in some ways this may overlap a little bit with the physical, like are they getting respite, are they exercising, eating well?

So you're gonna see some overlap in this questioning, but a is gonna get a little bit more broad into like week, daily, and weekly rhythm. Mm-hmm. And I really like this because I know. What I see a lot is people are packed full of activity in their lives. Mm-hmm. And sometimes they're doing a lot of good things while not doing the best things God has called them to do.

And it's interesting to think that rest is actually an activity. We don't think about it that way, but looking at those rhythms are gonna be really imp. Hor so much so that sometimes it's really hard to walk with somebody and make room to do any amount of discipleship or counseling. If their life is so full of all this other activity.

There's no rest, there's, there's no rhythm that would allow them to really begin to deal with an issue in their life that's gonna require some time, some attention, some energy, and they're gonna, they're gonna have to have. Yeah, I remember, or I found that working with women with trauma, they tend rhythms is are something that just go out the window.

When we're in traumatic situations. And so, um, one of the first things I inquire about are rhythms and particularly sleep rhythms. A lot of people who've been traumatized, their sleep rhythms are completely off. They, they're up half the night. They're, you know, they're sleeping till late in the day and their even sense of like, morning and evening is just outta whack.

And so sometimes the very first thing I encourage people to. It's just to develop a good sleep pattern. Nothing else. Yes. Uh, I mean, it's so, it's vital. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, that's so good. And it's so simple. It's almost so simple that we can miss it. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, C stands for conceptual. That's our thinking, our cognition.

And so we wanna know what are their goals, what are their values, because we're trying to see do they line up with God's goals and God's. Uh, what thought patterns or mental tapes play over and over again in their head? So often we don't have a thousand different tapes. We just have about five, and we play, rewind, repeat, right, rewind, repeat, rewind, repeat.

And so we really, we really need to be interested in the story. They are telling themselves about who God is, who they are, how others are relating to them. Those are gonna be really important because that's a lot of their self counsel. Is coming. You're either your best, your own best or worst self counselor.

And a lot of this has to do with your thinking. Um, we wanna know what their motives are, you know, what's really driving them. And then we can ask some bible oriented questions that require biblical response. Like, you know, do you remember any Bible characters who were fearful? Or what does the scripture teach on the topic of.

Uh, you know, maybe, uh, peace or, um, anger. It could be a, it could be the positive or the negative side, if you will. Um, and then curious, probing questions, you know, challenging their belief about something or inviting them to self-reflect on particularly the, the, the things they're thinking, the things they're bleeding, their motivations, their goals, their desires.

And then finally, h is for history. And, um, it's often good to hear their life story. No, it's not always necessary. If somebody comes and they have a very direct question about one thing, let's not exasperate them, but let's go back and let me hear your whole life story. But if it's a complex situation or a chronic situation, I think those two times are when it's really, really helpful to delve into a more fuller understanding of their story.

And so I might ask somebody to kind of do a life map, you know, where they talk about some highs and lows, um, their, uh, significant people or events that have shaped them positively and or negatively. And then this is where we get into family of origin, you know, um, how did they relate to their mother, their father, their siblings, their grandparents, uh, what were the messages that they've taken away from their, from their family.

Uh, and so we just wanna get a, a good history. And that will, that will often, you know, we're disciples for 18 years, typically under our parents, um, or whoever has been our primary caregiver. And that is significant in shaping us in who we've become. And then we get saved and God invites us into a different story and a different family.

And, you know, some of the things we have to do is realize that God wants to go back and heal and re and, and grow us in areas, um, where we've been impacted by our family of origin. Yeah. So, um, I love the PREACH acronym cuz it's easy to remember and it helps give me categories to organize. And I, I think it's good for us to remember that this is a tool for extensive.

So we're going wide here and, but I also just wanna give a little caution with this tool because again, when we're sitting with people who are in pain, who are in troubled times, um, we can't exasperate them if we go too wide. Because, um, sometimes people are ready to talk about something in particular.

Mm-hmm. And if we wanna keep drawing them out wide when they're ready to go deep with us. Mm-hmm. I think we need to be really sensitive to that interplay. But the tool is really helpful in the sense of we feel like we're missing something with a person. And so for me, I use this to go through the categories in my head of like, what am I missing?

And, and am I asking questions or do I have a good sense of each one of these areas in a person's life? And if I don't, then I wanna go deeper a, a little bit deeper into one of those areas. So I just, I probably like you, Brenda, use this tool. Hung onto it so much in the beginning, but I think I use it every, every time I sit with somebody, I think it's part of my grid now.

Mm. And then the other part of the grid that we have already talked about that helps us go deep or that helps us go more intensively is what we talked about, um, back in season one with Saints Center sufferer. And so, um, The Saint Saint Sufferer Center tool helps us to, um, be able to ask questions about, about a person that take us a little bit more into the heart.

So with our Saint questions, we're just, um, simply asking questions around the idea of where are you growing? How are you viewing God right now? How are you rooted and grounded in your sense of justification of what it means to be in Christ? How are you walking out, um, the two greatest commandments of loving God and loving your neighbor?

And so we're really seeking to know what I call just the good in a person's life, the evidences of the spirit's work. And then with sufferer, we're asking, how are you experiencing the effects of the fall? What is broken right now? What ways are you suffering? Um, and then even to an extent, what is your future hope?

So we're looking at the fallenness in a person's body and their environment, in the culture, in spiritual warfare issues, in their own sin in other. All the different ways that brokenness, um, from the fall has affected them. And then finally we think about sinner and we ask, you know, what is the Holy Spirit putting his finger on in your life?

What is he showing you that he's asking you to repent of what thoughts, behaviors, emotions, ideas, motives, um, disordered worship. What are the things, um, do you, where are the places where you find. Stuck in your growth of sanctification and growing to look more like Christ and growing closer to him. So Saints Center sufferer, we come back to it again.

Mm-hmm. In the sense that it becomes a tool where we know others well. I just used it last week. I did a talk and with our local MOS group, and we used it as a tool around the table just to kind of go there right away. And what I love about this tool in everyday relationships is that people can answer this in a level one depth, a two depth, a three depth, or you know, they can go as deep as they want.

The question will allow for any level of depth that the person wants to reveal. Yeah, I agree. Well, Alex, I love both of these tools. Um, I've used them and continued to use them. Um, they really are ways to enhance our skill of becoming. Good question askers. Um, and I don't want our listeners to be overwhelmed.

We've covered a lot in a short amount of time. I know for me, it's been a lifelong journey of. And I'm still growing. Mm-hmm. And you know, the great thing is, is as we're meeting with people, we're gonna continue to listen and ask more questions mm-hmm. And listen and ask more questions. So it's not like you only get one chance to get it right.

Right. Um, I also want us to remember that the Holy Spirit is far more interested in our hearts to help people than our skill to do it. Mm-hmm. And love will always cover what is lacking. Mm-hmm. And I'm so thankful for that because my skill. And personal ministry has developed significantly over the last, you know, 20 years of ministry and 50 plus.

I won't say how old I am, years of my life, you know? Um, but I, you know, I just think that, um, we don't need to go in thinking this is so hard and I just have to have this all down before I do it. Like, just be willing to step in and love people well and ask the Holy Spirit to lead. And he. Mm-hmm. And so, um, you know, hopefully we've given you a few things to think about.

We don't need to make assumptions about people. We need to get to know them and understand their struggle by asking them extensive and intensive questions that give us context. Um, you know, we need to zoom out to get a, a gr a clearer picture of the context for their sin or suffering story. And then the two helpful tools are PREACH acronym and Saint Suffer Center Paradigm.

Yeah. I think the challenge here, uh uh, one of the things we like to say, it's kind a little bit become part of our church culture is that the way that we get to know people is that we ask the next question. Love it. You know? Yep. We tend to, we tend to be at church or we tend to be in our social situations and we say, how are you?

That's just what we do. It's polite. Yeah. But what's the next question that we ask? Like that next question is, is going to, to really, I think, allow somebody to know we mean it, that we wanna know them. Mm-hmm. And, um, if we, if our next question is a good question, um, it's gonna take us a little bit deeper into the heart and the story of a person.

Yeah. And I feel like that takes us back to our first ministry method that we talked about in that's presence. Mm-hmm. Because so often we don't ask the next question cuz we really don't want to see and don't want to show up. You know, it's like when I ask that next question now I'm, I'm somewhat committed Yeah.

To carrying and to showing up and being there. And so are we willing to be that person who's willing to ask the next question? That might be something that would really set us apart as a holy healing community, huh? Exactly. Yeah. I love that. Well, listen, our next podcast, we're gonna be talking about the Ministry of Words, and until then, we hope our listeners will continue to pray and practice the Ministry of Presence and listening and asking good questions.

God's given us these means as a very simple and yet practical way to show his love to those around us.