Season 3 Episode 4

Hi, I'm Alex. And I'm Brenda. Welcome to Conversational Counseling or Counseling and Discipleship Meet.

But the gospel really calls us to listen and have great understanding. Before we even think about speaking, we're quick to wanna. Before we get to the point of just seeing and experiencing with someone

this season we're talking about personal ministry and we're talking about the model, the elements of what it means to minister. To those around us, and we so far have talked about the Ministry of Presence, and today in episode four, we're gonna talk about the Ministry of Listening, have to go ahead and do the true confession that we, we've seemed to do every episode, but particularly with the Ministry of Listening, I always have to laugh.

Was taking a marriage and family counseling class, and we were assigned the speaker listener technique, um, which you may be familiar with. If you've ever heard the term the talking stick, you know, the person with the talking stick does the talking and, and then the listener is supposed to summarize what the speaker said and not add more information and not give their opinion.

But just summarize what the speaker. And so we had to do this technique with our spouse or close friend, um, on a non-conflict topic and practice and do a writeup. And of course I did this with my husband and of course, being the counselor, I thought I was going to be a great listener. And of course, the go, the confession part of the story is I was a terrible listener.

I was much worse than my husband. Always thinking about what I was going to say next. He would say what he had to say and I could never summarize what he just said and he'd have to repeat himself, and it was really a humbling moment of realizing that although I get paid, To listen to people. I am really not a good listener.

Well, Alex, you're not in this boat alone. I think that, uh, the majority of the people I know would say the same thing, and it's certainly true for me. I think this is probably the hardest of all the disciplines or all the elements is listening. Um, I think of a Bible verse that I memorized early on, probably by the urge of my husband or somebody who loved me when words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise.

Yes. And uh, the less you say, the wiser you will look. But there is a time to speak, but not when you're trying to be a good listener. Um, yeah. And this just reminds me, I got a text from a friend this weekend. Um, she had just learned that her ex-husband was in jail and she was really trying to wrap her mind around, you know, the, the specifics of what had happened.

And she has a daughter, and the daughter was pretty much in shock, and she texted me to let me know what happened. And then her question was, do you have a sermon or an article or something that would be helpful for me to have a conversation with her? Mm-hmm. You know where I'm going with this. Yes. Um, I understand her reaction.

Totally. Yes. So, and she gave me permission to share this anonymously. Right. I've been there so many times, right? Like, we wanna say something immediately to make things better. We wanna Yeah. Stop the pain. We wanna have a good word. We wanna make sense, we wanna have an explanation. Um, we even wanna begin to connect God's story to the other person's story.

But what I ended up, of course, um, You know, sending back to her was no article and no sermon, and the simple reminder that God has made you her mother to be present for such a time as this and what your daughter needs is a safe place to. Unravel all of her emotions unfiltered in a way that is real and raw to somebody who will really care.

Mm-hmm. And um, and so that was just a great reminder to me of my own tendency, and I hope a great example, that we are really prone that when trouble comes. Boom. We wanna know the answers, we wanna know how to speak to someone. Mm-hmm. And we are saying that is not the first or the second or the third order of business.

In fact, we've put Ministry of words as the fourth element. Right. Um, because we've got listening and then asking questions before we even get there. Yeah. So that was a really kind way to say. Shut up and listen, that's wrong. I put you, that's her mother. But that's right. It really is sometimes what my own internal dialogue needs to be.

Just shut up and listen because I wanna fall in one or two ditches, either where I'm afraid to speak and so I say nothing or I'm so quick to wanna give advice that I jump in and wanna have the right. Wanna have say the, say the thing that solves the problem. But the gospel really calls us to listen and have great understanding before we even think about speaking.

Yeah, and Ecclesiastes seven makes it really simple for us. Alex, there's a time to speak and there's a time to be quiet. So, you know, shut up, speak up. I think we had a podcast, uh, that's right, kind of by that title. In season one is actually the cheat sheet, the shorter version of this entire series, but I'm always saying the wise man knows what time it.

Yeah. And so hopefully in this podcast we will give some, um, just some things maybe we've learned along the way. So, and some things the Bible tells us along the way about the wisdom that we need to listen well. Mm-hmm. So good listening, Brenda, is really the, I think the practice of empathy. It's, um, really listening to, um, understand, to really know the other person.

And I'm gonna use some language today that kind of, um, Goes along with attachment theory. And I just wanna give my disclaimer, attachment theory is rooted in evolutionary theory, and we don't believe it be because it's rooted in evolutionary theory, obviously, but attachment theory is one of those, um, really descri rich, des descriptive.

Uh, psychological, um, terminology that helps us understand what empathy, what connection is. And the reason that we're able to borrow or plunder that from, uh, modern psychology is because we don't believe that we, um, need attachment because the ser species needs to survive. That's what the evolutionary basis.

We believe in attachment theory because we believe that we were made by a trium God who is in community, and we are, we're made to be in community and that it, um, it is necessary for life to be connected to others. That we are dependent creatures. We're dependent on God, we're dependent on other people, and therefore we can borrow some of this terminology from attachment theory because we know what the correct biblical basis of the theory.

So when we talk about listening with empathy, you're gonna hear me use these terms of attunement and containment and um, and they go along with attachment theory. And I just wanna explain why I still use those terms and why I like them so much is because I think they really describe well, what our experience is.

Hmm. Yeah. Well thank you so much for giving us that, um, overview as well and that biblical framework because I think attachment theory is somewhat a buzzword in today's modern psychology. And to your point, um, we can, we can use some of what the world has put together to help us, um, as we begin to have vocabulary and maybe some categories for personal.

Yeah, so I thought today what we might do is look at a couple verses in Exodus three, seven and eight. Brenda, maybe you could read 'em and then I wanna break them down a little bit. Sure. The Lord said I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out. Because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering.

So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land. A land flowing with milk and honey. So I love these verses because I think it highlights the, um, two specific things, attunement and containment. So attunement is the ability to see someone to recognize what their experience is.

God says, I have heard, I, I have seen the misery of my people. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers. He is captured by their experience. He is attuned to them. He knows what is going on with them. We think most, um, uh, probably readily about attunement with a baby, a baby's crying, and a mother attunes to the baby.

When they go to see what the needs of the infant are in that moment, do they need to be changed? Do they need to be fed? That's attunement. But then we see that God also contains, and that's a weird word, but when we're talking about containment, we're talking about the fact that we do something with what we see.

That doesn't always mean, that doesn't mean we solve the problem, but it's that we create a structure that helps the other person understand. And sometimes the way we create that structure to give them some understanding or give them a place to put those feelings, is that we actually ourselves. Um, allow them to see that we are moved with them.

So God says, I am moved with compassion. I am concerned about their suffering. He is starting to contain them, and so I'm coming down to rescue you. So he honors their experience. He lets himself be touched by it, and then he actuallys. Speaks this to them. When he goes to Moses, if we remember, and he says this, and just speaking this and putting it into words is a way that we contain it.

He's giving them a structure with words for what they're experiencing, language. He's giving language. And so we do that most often with toddlers. They're, you know, someone comes and steals our child's toy and he or she screams his head off and we say, I know you're angry right now that she took your toy.

And right there we've contained, we've attuned and contained, we've seen that the toddlers experienced emotion and we've. Begun to give him language for what his experience is. That's the way that we contain. We might at that point, pull the Tyler on our lap and comfort him, and that's another form of containment.

So there are a lot of ways that we contain. So these words are really important because I don't think they come naturally to us. Again, I think we're quick to wanna solve before we get to the point of just seeing and experiencing with someone. But this is what's so interesting and why I think it's worth taking the time to talk about today.

Is it trauma experts actually tell us that the long-term effects of trauma are different, even if two people experienced the exact same trauma. Their long-term effects will be different based on how much they feel seen, heard, and cared for in that trauma. Mm-hmm. Two identical traumas that say two girls, 10 years old, sexually abused, identical trauma, but one, her parents attune well, contain, well, they listen to her story, they grieve with her.

They take action to protect her. The long-term effects of her trauma are gonna be vastly different from. Who's not believed, not listened to, and not cared for in that trauma. So that's a drastic example. But the same can be said about just our everyday wounding as we are wounded, as people attuned to us, we're able to process through that wounding when we feel cared for, attuned and contained with.

And if we're not, it's gonna take us longer. We're gonna carry that wounding in a different way. Hmm. Well that's really good. Thank you for that explanation. Um, that's really helpful. I've heard the term, you know, holding someone's story. Hmm. And I was thinking about, you were talking about like the smaller, maybe the, the wounds in our life that are not the suffering, the situations, um, maybe that are not quite as drastic.

But then there's those things that are really, really hard and we listen. If we're gonna enter into people's lives, then we have to be prepared to hear really hard things. I, where, where I do my counseling is a context where just really, really, um, broken people come people with a lot of stories that are really, really hard to hear.

And I'm wondering, I've, I've heard that expression holding someone's story. Maybe if you could talk a little bit about what that means. I would say two things immediately come to mind. There may be more, but the first thing that comes to my mind is the sacredness of any one's story. That when we really think about, um, the sacredness of we are image bearers.

On this earth living out a unique expression of that image bearing in rela in unique relationships. Like there's something sacred about each person's story. Mm-hmm. So we need to be handle it with a lot of care and confidentiality that it's their story to tell. And so we hold it with that sacredness. So like, it's not ours.

Um, we're only, um, sharing. And the experience with them, but it is theirs to hold and keep. And so there's a sacredness to their story. And then also when I think of holding someone's story, I think about just the weight that there is. There is a weight that comes as we sit with people if we're really going to attune and contain well.

We are going to find ourselves thinking about it throughout the day. Mm-hmm. We are going to feel a certain amount of emotional and physical energy that goes out. Mm-hmm. By the bearing of that person's hardship. I'm sure that you've sat in many places where. You find your, you've walked away from the person and for days afterwards, your mind returns to that with tears even.

Mm-hmm. As you think about the, the horrors that people have experienced. So there's a, there is a, an emotional weight that we carry as we listen, um, to people's story and as we hold it. And often those two things go together, the confidentiality that we have to. Also increases the weight because we are not always able to process through how we are feeling about mm-hmm.

That story with someone else. And so we have to go to the Lord to do that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think, again, it, it's really good when we can ask the person if we can invite other people in. Mm-hmm. I think that just really helps, kind of that idea of sharing, sharing the load makes it a little bit lighter, uh, for everyone involved.

Well, thank you. I think that's really good. I, what we'd like to do with the rest of our time though, Alex is just contrast maybe a poor listener, um, to a good listener. And these are just some of the traits again, in our own lives with our family and the people in our immediate sphere of influence.

Probably these are. The trait of being a poor listener have shown up the most. Um, and then, you know, as we extend out into other spheres of influence. So we're just hoping that we talked about ministry being a way that we show the love of God to other people. We show them that they're valued. And, um, listening, God is a great listener.

Um, I was even thinking about earlier when you were talking about the cries. One of the things that I learned in Israel from Marty, Our guide, um, was just, if you go through the Bible and you look at all the times that the people cry out to the Lord, like sincerely and and truly, almost all the times you'll see that God answers that cry.

Mm-hmm. And so God is always listening and very. Attuned to his people. Mm-hmm. And he's always, almost always, he comes and, and, you know, rescues it. It is not comes to meet us. It may not always be in the timing that we want or in the way that we thought way. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But he does come. And so that's really precious.

So let's talk about, um, these, the first one we have, and by the way we're gonna have a handout in the show notes that will also have some scripture proofs to go along as well. And you know, these are 10, somebody might could add so many more to our list of 10. And I would even. You know, encourage our listeners.

Go through these, but maybe there's some others and you could share those on social media. Maybe Malia could help start a little thread of what are the other ways that you have listened well or not been listened to. Sometimes we see it more in how we are not listened to well. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. More so than how we are listening to others.

So, all right. So the first one we said is listen to no and understand. What do we mean by that? So we're, we're stating it to the positive that a good listener listens to know and understand. And so I think what we're getting at here is that it goes beyond just listening for facts. Um, we're not just trying to recount the story back to someone.

It's not, um, who was it? Joe Friday. Just the facts, ma'am. Mm-hmm. Like we're listening for more than just facts. We're trying to really know the person's experience and understand them, which is why preview our next. Podcast is gonna be on asking questions because if we're truly going to understand, and we're gonna come back to asking questions almost with every one of these points, right?

Mm-hmm. Because asking questions is gonna be the way that we clarify things, but again, we're, we're really seeking. To, um, listen sometimes beyond just what is being said, looking at non-verbal cues and seeing the person in their whole context so that we're understanding the whole person and not just listening to the who, what, when, where, why of a story.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's good that we're not listening to facts. We're listening to a person. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, okay. Well, number two is trust the Holy Spirit for discernment and the right words at the right time. Thinking about what you are going to say, and of course you just admitted to that confess. That's right.

It's your turn to confess. That's right. Well, and I think this is really where we have to be reliant on the Holy Spirit and trust that when we go to Minister to people, the Holy Spirit knows them. You know, he already knows. He knows them. Mm-hmm. We don't know. We're never, I don't care how many questions we asked Alex, we're never gonna truly know them as much as we even want to know them, but God does.

And um, and I think you know this when, when you're sitting there talking to somebody and the whole time you're just trying to think of what you're gonna say next, you may miss. The absolute gold in Yeah. In what they're saying. Mm-hmm. Um, because we can only think about so many things at one time. So if I get fixated on the first thing you said, but the last thing you said is actually the most important, but I missed it cuz I was too busy wanting to say something about the first thing you said.

Right. Um, we can trust, you know what? If you're helping someone, it's probably not gonna be a one and done conversation. Right. You'll be able to revisit, you'll be able to ask more questions, you'll be able to gather more data along the way. And I, I've always thought it interesting because I, I know when I first started counseling in my professional ministry, I.

Um, I would make notes before the person came in, you know, they'd fill out a form or the things they said were wrong, and then I would make notes of things I was gonna say and things I was gonna cover. And I realized pretty quickly, like, uh, you don't know what to say to someone until they show up and they start talking.

It's like, how will you, how do you know? You won't know what to say until you've listened to the problem and the person, yeah. So, um, I just think we don't need to be fearful. We just need to pray. Yeah. And depend and lean into the. Spirit for discernment at the right time, he will give us the right words for the right issues that he wants to press in on.

Yeah. Not that we necessarily even wanna press in on, but the things that, you know where he's leading this person, we just wanna be working in partnership and cooperation with the spirit of God. I've been doing training with the Islander Center on story work and we, it's a, it's a methodology of counseling through specific stories in a person's life, and we are encouraged to listen to the story, which takes about three to five minutes for someone to, they read it to you, um, without taking any notes.

Oh, and it is the hardest thing to me is like walking a tightrope. There is. So I have so much fear about it. Um, but it is really this thing of trusting the spirit. And, um, we have scripture for each one of these, but I, I really wanna read the scripture for this one because it is one of my favorite. Um, scriptures when it comes to personal ministry, and it comes from Isaiah and it says the spirit of the Lord will rest upon him.

Of course, this is prophecy towards Jesus. Mm-hmm. But this is the spirit that lives in us. Mm-hmm. The spirit of wisdom and understanding the spirit of counsel and might the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. And I didn't, um, I didn't copy the next first, but it says, um, he ha he, he sees without eyes and he hears without.

Hmm. The spirit does, and I, I pray that so often to remind myself that this is the spirit that lives in me. The spirit that doesn't need eyes to see, that doesn't need ears to hear, and he lives within me so I can listen to this person's story and I can trust the spirit to work, and I can be okay if I don't know what to say next, that it just gives me an opportunity to listen more.

That's right. Absolutely. All right, well number three is listen for themes of the Whole Person, Saint Center and Suffer and not just center. I think we have a podcast on that in season one. Yes, I think we have said what there is to be said about that, but I do think it's interesting to think about it through the grid of listening.

It's not just how we see people, but we listen for these themes specifically. Yeah. And I have found it is really, really helpful anytime that I have a situation with my husband or my children, um, because I think those close, close relationships are where I want to jump to a center. Mm-hmm. First, you know, you are the problem, not me.

Um, and so it really, really helps, like am I listening? Like, what am I hearing? I think about the whole saint thing. Is this person tired? Are they sick? Are they weary? Are they fainthearted? You know, all those kind of even, uh, kind of body is issues. Mm-hmm. And, um, and then, you know, maybe there's, maybe there's a reason like maybe I.

Treated my daughter or my son a certain way in the past and it was really hurtful and they're still are tempted to respond to me like that old person that I used to be. And so, you know, addressing those things. So yes, we have a whole podcast on that. So we will not spend a lot of time, and maybe we could put that in the show notes as well, so people can access that really easily.

Mm-hmm. All right. Focused on the listener instead of being distracted by other things. Alex, what is. Master of distraction. You mean what? Distract me? Yeah. That's what I mean. What's your distractions? I mean, I was think as soon as I, I was thinking about, I can't even sit in a, I don't even really love television, but I can't even sit in a restaurant.

I have to position myself so that the TV is not in front of me because if it's there, I'm gonna. I'm gonna start watching it. I mean, it just is. And then of course the phone, now that we carry this with us everywhere we go, you know, just being able to put it down and walk away. But I wanna add one thing that I think we don't necessarily think about, and I've really learned this from my counselor, um, he's just done a great job of, um, as I've shared some things with him that have caused him to react emotionally.

Like I've shared a story and he was. That makes me so angry. He will stop me sometimes and say, hold on a minute, Alex. He'll say, I really am struggling with my own anger right now over what happened to you. Mm-hmm. Just gimme one minute. Mm-hmm. And you would think that that almost breaks the flow of conversation or whatever, but it really doesn't and it has made me really trust.

To him, because I really believe that when he says, okay, I'm good. Like he means I'm good, I'm ready to listen to you. And I'm not even gonna be distracted by my own emotion that I'm experiencing right now. Like he will because he knows, and we are, we're people. So we're gonna be affected by people's story.

But even being willing to, to pause and say, wait just a minute. First of all, it feels so attuned to have someone. Be angry about, you know, something that's happened to you. But then secondly, it just really is built trust in me because I trust him that when he's listen says he's listening. He's listening.

Mm-hmm. It's, it's, I got, I've got him on all cylinders. Mm-hmm. So I think that's really interesting to even be aware of the distractions with. In ourselves. Yeah, that's such a great point. I've, I've definitely experienced that same thing. All right, listen patiently instead of impatiently and uh, I'm gonna take this one because I think I may be the queen of impatience.

My family's like, mom, for as fun as you are, loving as you are, you are very impatient. But I've decided there are two kinds of, of talkers that really. Mm. Bring out my impatience, ramblers and detail-oriented people. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, you're talking to the person and there's no linear approach to, I love hearing people's story.

Like, tell me your story. Tell me about your life, and I want like a little linear structure to that so I can follow. And then you just get these people and they're all over the map. And at the end I'm like, I have no idea who you. Oh, what your life was about because I've been chasing you around in my mind, doing me gymnastics.

Um, but you know, a lot of people like in. They don't, they can't tell their stories in a linear way. A lot of people That's right. Have experienced abuse. They, you have to be willing to sit and be patient and help somebody bring some structure, maybe to their story. But you don't wanna do that immediately.

You just have to be willing to sit with them and, and be okay with that. And then the other thing is I'm really, really the detail oriented, so I'm a vision. I like big picture. My sister, who lives across the street, who I love, who I see three times a day, at least every day, we walk together a lot. She is, uh, we call it sister therapy.

Um, but I just went through this season and it was probably a longer season than I realized, but we would go for a walk. She's a beaver and beavers are very detail-oriented people. I'm an otter, so let's just play and move past, you know, all the details. Mm-hmm. And she would just start telling me these stories.

And to get her to go mower quickly, I would just interrupt and finish the story. Every like, like this went on, I don't know how many weeks this went on, but I finally kind of began to realize, and finally she just turned to me one day and she goes, would you just stop? And I was like, Uh oh. Stop. Stop. What?

And she goes, Brenda, every time I try to tell you a story, you interrupt me the entire time. Like mm-hmm. You're always finishing my sentence for me. And half the time it wasn't even, right. Yeah. I wasn't finishing the story, right? Mm-hmm. And so, any rate, of course I was heartbroken for just how rude that was, and I just had to go back and confess to her like, I'm so sorry.

You give so many beautiful detail. And I clearly do not appreciate them, and that is on me. So, um, will you please forgive me and I will be more patient and I will listen well, and I will not interrupt. Um, and the sweet thing is I think she kind of realized that about me too, so she tries not to get quite so down in the weeds, you know, as well with me.

Right. But, um, any rate, patience, it's a, it's something we don't, again, it's one of those areas we don't necessarily always think about patience in listening. So I think it's worth mentioning. Yeah, I think it's a great illustration. Filter. There you go ahead. Okay. Filter their story through God's story instead of through your own personal experience.

I think this is really hard because we are all quick to just fall back on what we know and what we know is our own story. And so, um, I think first we have to be willing to hear them and we're gonna talk about assumptions in a minute, but to hear them and what they're saying and then to remember that, um, you know, just because.

Um, I let my daughters do this, or my husband and I made this choice, or I went to this college, or what. It doesn't mean that that is what someone else needs to do. And to really go to God's word and to recognize that for many of these things that people wanna process through with us. There are not clear directives in scripture.

Mm-hmm. And so we shouldn't be giving advice from our own personal experience as if it is the word of the Lord. Yeah. Um, we should only be doing guiding people to the places in scripture that they give them principles that give them, um, uh, Commands or principles about what they're struggling with. And here's the big thing that reminds them of the gospel truth, that they are loved.

Mm-hmm. That they are accepted, that God sees them as perfect and that they might make a mistake and they might choose the wrong thing here, or they might err, uh, you know, and somehow and what they need do next. And so that we are constantly taking them back to the gospel and not our personal experience.

This is the way I did it and it worked out. So it's gonna work out for you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And just, I think that's so good. And one other little thing I would say is a shared story is not a shared experience. Yeah. Oh, that is so good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, you know, I have a, a child who's wayward and there's been 12 years of just hardship and heartache.

And when somebody else comes in, I've learned this the hard way. I'm all of a sudden, oh yeah, yeah, I know exactly how you feel, um, how you're experiencing this. And then I get in there and I realize, uh, you know what? They are having a different experience, or in this moment, their experience is different.

Or maybe it was the very same thing, but how they're processing it. So I think that we have to be really careful. Um, and it's really frustrating. I, I know this has happened to me when I've been sharing my story and then somebody. Just begins to interject their story and all of a sudden it gets hijacked.

It's no longer about me and serving me. It's now all about them and highlighting, you know, their story. So we just need to be careful with that one. What about number seven, Alex, let's get, let's say one more thing on that, Brenda, because Yeah. You know, we started off the podcast talking about listening or, or started off this was talking about listening to understand and mm-hmm.

And when you said that about someone beginning to share their story or imposing their story, oh, I know exactly how. What ends up happening is the person feels misunderstood. And that feeling of being misunderstood. Yep. It is. It is hurtful to feel like somebody completely missed us, um, misjudged us because they, they, they laid their story on top of ours or their experience.

So I think again, we set it to the positive, but it's good to take a minute to to, to get in touch with that feeling of being misunderstood. Yep. And it might keep us quiet a little bit longer. Yes. We'd love to share our own stories, but we just need to know the, the time and place to do that. And sometimes it's very appropriate when we're talking to someone.

Yes. But we need to really know when that appropriate time is. Yeah. So what about number seven? Listen with curiosity instead of judgment. Oh, this is such a big one. Yeah. Yeah. So Paul Tripp says that we're all meaning makers, and that means that as we're listening, we are creating meaning, uh, out of their story in our own minds.

And it is very hard for that meaning not to go to judging. What would I have done in that situation? What was the right thing? What was the wrong thing? Um, I love this idea that we don't have to go to right or wrong right away. We can just listen. We can just mm-hmm. Um, in order to shepherd people. Um, my counselor's getting a lot of billing today.

He says we go to the pasture first and not the courtroom. I love that imagery that we can go to the pasture first, that we can shepherd people before we have to go into this decision of if it's right or wrong. Mm-hmm. And so we're just listening for their experience. And what that means is, Um, one of my favorite concepts from the book of Job is Job says to.

Um, poor counselors like you did not realize that I was speaking words for the wind. Mm-hmm. And, and what he was saying to them is like, there is some of this that because of the depth of my pain, you should have been able to let it blow away. Yep. And not sat in judgment of me. Mm-hmm. But just allowed me to lament and allowed me to suffer.

And I just think that is really a beautiful, um, imagery, that there's some things we just blow away for people because it comes from a place of such pain. Yeah, and I mean, I just think about like, are you a person that someone could drop their equivalent of the F-bomb and you'd just be okay and not have to correct it?

Yeah. I mean there are just some hurts so deep. I know that I have been in anguish of soul so deep and that I have said things that were not my truest heart, right? Um, and for somebody to rush in and be correcting me about how I'm lamenting or how I'm grieving or you know, the word I just use, Um, it's been so sweet to have people around me that literally I could say anything and they, and they know, they're like, mm-hmm.

These are words for the wind. I'm just gonna sit here and listen. I'm gonna sit here and cry. I'm gonna sit here and hold you cuz I know better. You know, I'll, I'll come around. Right? No. Yeah. And, um, and then, you know, the Lord will, the Lord will deal with me. So I think also just allowing for difficult questions and unanswerable things.

Mm-hmm. Um, you know, we're quick to make judgements, but there's just, I mean, there's just a lot. We're not God. There's just a lot we don't understand and it's okay. It's just okay not to have all the answers. Mm-hmm. Like we need to be okay with that. It's Christians. Sometimes we think, well, we're Christians and we have a Bible.

We should know everything. It's like, no, there are things that are too big for us. There are ways that God's works that are mysterious that we will not know. And I think if we're not comfortable with that, it's gonna be a hard thing. Helping somebody else be comfortable with God is God. And, and we are. But we will trust him even when we don't understand.

Yeah, it's good. Yeah. So we listen with curiosity instead of judgment, and we listen with curiosity instead of assumption. And this is another big one. And this, I think this goes back to what we talked about with, um, I'm filtering things through our own personal story that so often we hear people use certain language and we, we define it under our.

And we, um, we hear people, um, uh, give certain, um, terminology to things or, um, maybe they even, I've had people just trail off and not finish a sentence and have to say, wait, will you say the rest of that? Because I don't wanna assume what you are about to say there. Like, I could fill in, but I wanna make sure that I'm filling in with what you are telling me and not what with what I'm thinking.

Mm-hmm. So it's hard not to make assumption. Yeah, and I was thinking about, my husband had sent a Facebook message to someone about something really hard in their life had happened, and he had caught wind of it. And so he was sending a Facebook message to be like very, trying to be very encouraging about, you know, just trusting in the Lord.

But he didn't really know the person's situation. He hadn't spoken. It was kind of like a Facebook post that he was trying to respond to, and that person ended. Um, shooting back a message that was like, how dare you, you have no idea. And so it was kind of like one of those situations where he just assumed that they would be mm-hmm.

That this, this person would be far enough along or that spiritually they would be on the same page or he just assumed what he was saying. But he had, he had not had the opportunity to do. Any listening. Mm-hmm. And it was kind of just a reminder to me that on Facebook we need to be really like social media.

We need to be careful, uh, because I think it's really easy for, that's a, that's a avenue where we can really put up just our Christianese really quickly. Yeah. And kind of platitudes we haven't heard, you know, we haven't seen anybody or talk to them. Um, but now we just are trying to. Say something nice, you know?

Yeah. The other place I see it happening a lot, Brenda, is because we do have such a psychologist culture that we use language that we think we all have the same definition for like mm-hmm. I mean, you know, he's a narcissist. He's a narcissist, she's bipolar, you know, and to really not just accept that, definitely don't accept that that is an actual diagnosis because a lot of times people are using that language without actual diagnoses.

But also, um, you know, narcissist. Well, te tell me how you're experiencing that. Like, so, right. Again, so we're not making assumptions of one thing, but actually the lived experience is different. So we throw a lot of terminology around that we need to clarify and not make assumptions about. Yeah, exactly.

All right. Number nine, we're getting close to the end listening for what is often not said, emotions, interpretations, and self-talk instead of just the facts and what is said. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I just, I had a, just a little illustration talking about, you know, what's not said and looking at the whole person, but my daughter, who's in her second trimester now, she called, uh, she texted me and said, mom, I've cried three times in 12 hours.

Do you have time to meet for coffee and talk? Mm. And. And it's interesting cuz she didn't need me to talk. You have time to talk. I do. You have time to listen. And, um, you know, she really just needed me to sit there and, and what was happening is she was just pouring out her heart of all the, the, the new fears of being pregnant for the first time.

I've never loved a man like this. I've never loved a baby like this. Um, and, you know, I could have immediately given her a lesson on her changing hormones. Yeah. And, uh, you know, the fact that she just needed to trust God. This was just the way life was gonna be from now on. Yeah. Um, but I think there was just a lot of emotions and a lot of interpretations and self dog was all that going on, and, and even physical.

And so we just wanna, we just wanna be sensitive. We wanna read the person. Um, they're halo doubt of, in other words, you know, their, um, the outward, they're where they are, uh, physically. All of those things need to be taken into account as we listen to people. Yeah. And then the last one, I think this goes along with what you're saying, Brenda, because, um, is it's listening as a friend at the person's side and not their authority.

And isn't that so hard with our children who are growing up now to move out of this place of authority and to listen as a friend, not feel like. Mom who has to have the answer, solve the problem, but, um, just come alongside them. It's especially hard with our children, but it's hard with, with other people.

We, we do like to feel like we have. Learn something or understood it and we can, I impart that knowledge to someone else. That's right. And so often they just need somebody to sit beside 'em and, and care and listen. Yeah. All right. Well let's, um, let's see if we can wrap this up on how we can respond when we're listening.

Some ways that. Yeah. Let people know that we are empathizing. Mm-hmm. And one way is we can express gratitude. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, thank you for sharing that. I know that was really hard to share. I appreciate you, um, telling me that just expressing gratitude that this person would entrust their story to you.

Yeah. Yeah. And we can also share, um, how you've been like, we, like I said before about my counselor, just how I've been impacted by what you shared with me. So, you know, I, if it made you feel sad, if it made you feel angry, even like that you shared that with the person who is, um, sharing their story. We can encourage them by pointing out God's grace in their story.

And again, we don't wanna speak too soon and jump in and cheerlead and rah rah when we don't need to. But I do think there is a a point, particularly after you've heard somebody's story, you know, just as much as we might express sadness and anger, we might also have the wow factor that goes, wow. You know that, that's so hard.

And man, I see how God has sustained you. I see how God entered in. I see how God has been present with you. That's amazing. Yeah. We touched on this before, but we wanna make sure that we are keeping people's stories confidential. Um, we, we wanna make sure that we, um, are holding their stories, like we said, sacred.

But we, um, often, you know, for us, Brenda, when we're meeting with people professionally, we need them to know that our confidentiality is limited. Yeah. That if they're harmed to themself or someone else, we have a duty to warn that if there's abuse, um, or endangerment of a minor, we have to let people know those things.

So confidentiality is limited. That, um, in most cases, we need to be able to hold someone's story as sacred and private. Yeah. I just wanna add, Tennessee is a, um, everybody reports state and so, uh, whether it's child or elderly abuse, we just. Just know, just know and know that if you have to make a report, you can do it anonymously and it's the right thing to do.

Somebody will just go check in on the situation. So that can be scary, but you can also maybe ask that person to let somebody else in who has a little bit more experience with those sorts of situations. Mm-hmm. Well, um, you know, I love an acronym, Alex, so this is actually an acronym that I came up with, so I was pretty happy about that.

I know it was the Holy Spirit, but it's here. H e a R. And so we're just gonna leave everybody with this acronym. Number one is he the Holy Spirit in listening, ask for Divine Ability to understand and desire. Discern number two is active listening. What would you say that is? Um, that's when we, um, you know, here's what I heard you say.

Or, um, that sounds really hard. Can you tell me more about this? But we're engaged with what they're saying. We're not adding more to it. Mm-hmm. And one of my favorite things to say is, you don't have to walk this alone. I'm here, I'll be here with you. Mm-hmm. Uh, that's just a powerful statement for anybody we're meeting with.

Um, and we're gonna talk more about active listening cuz I think there's gonna also be some question asking some, repeating back some things we can do there. Empathetic listening and so we are listening for the person's experience of the situation and how they're being impacted emotionally. Hmm. And then the R is refrain from hasty conclusions, pat answers and be interested to know more.

Mm-hmm. And there's another acronym that I did not come up with. Wait, why am I talking w a I T? Why am I talking? Um, and I read this somewhere, listen in Silent are spelled with the same letters. And I thought that's interesting too. It's like, you know, two words, listen and be silent and uh, yeah. So I think that hopefully these will be some.

Helps to people who want to love well through listening. Yeah. And next, um, next episode we're gonna talk about asking questions and, and how asking questions and listening go together, that if we're listening, it makes us better question askers and that good questions help us to listen better. So, um, these two are really tied closely together, so I look forward to talking about question asking and we just, um, hope that you'll continue to.

Find ways to put this into practice throughout your week. Um, right there in your own home. You can become a good listener. And, um, and just re again, we wanna always be remembering that we first receive. And so we wanna be reminded even throughout the week of how the Lord is listen. To us. That means spending time in prayer and then turn and become a good listener with those around us.