Season 3 Episode 1

Hi, I'm Alex. And I'm Brenda. Welcome to Conversational Counseling or Counseling and Discipleship Meet. Have you created space, physical and mental for the Lord? So often it's the good things that get in the way of the best things.

If we don't create a space for God, if we're not intentional, then everything else and everyone else will crowd it out.

Well. Hi Alex. Hi Brenda. Good to see you. We're off to a little bit different format for this season's podcast. I was laughing at us this morning because here we're gonna talk about personal ministry and presence and we're not in the same room. Oh, this is trues. So, but there isn't it nice to have technology and some ways that we can show up from a distance of 350 miles.

So we'll bless God for that in this case for sure. But that is a little ironic, uh, no doubt. Mm-hmm. Well, listen, it's, it's been a minute since, um, we've been together and since our last. Uh, recording of our season. And, um, first of all, I just wanna really thank everyone who's listening. We've just gotten such great feedback and, um, it's been so encouraging.

We would love to hear from our listeners on our social media pages. Let us know what you like, let us know what you don't like. Maybe not so much what you don't like, but, um, we'll take some constructive criticism for sure. And then also just maybe some topics that folks would like for us to cover in the.

Mm-hmm. Yes. I think, um, it's been a big encouragement. This is a scary thing to put yourself out there, so we really do love any feedback that we get. Yeah. Well, you have anything you want to, um, maybe update us on just what's been going on in your life since we met the last time? Well, the interesting thing is not a lot has been going on in my life because for the first time in, I think about 13 years of ministry, I'm on a sabbatical, so I am doing a lot of nothing, a lot of resting and reading.

And just enjoying, um, just some quiet, and then we did a family reunion, which was fun. My family is really all over the world. I have cousins in Germany and um, and all over the United States, and I came back with Covid and it was my first round of Covid. And so, um, sabbatical turned into convalescence of Covid and I feel like I'm just now starting to feel like myself again after, um, recovering from.

Yeah, I'm so sorry. I know, especially if you've just had it for the first time, it can be pretty rough. Well, um, I think my time maybe contrasted years has been super busy. Uh, I did have covid, that was one of the downsides. Uh, but not as bad. It was my second time to have it. Mm-hmm. So second time around was a little bit better, thankfully.

Uh, we did take a trip to Chicago to see my youngest son. We took a family trip where we enjoyed Chicago style pizza and popcorn. Mm-hmm. So if we have any Chicago listeners out there, Delicious. And I highly recommended, uh, my grandson came and spent two weeks with us. And of course we had to have Camp Bebe and, um, I'm sure we'll get to hear more about that because it's one of my favorite things.

Uh, we also learned that we're gonna have a new grandbaby, a new grandson on the horizon. Mm-hmm. So we're super excited about that. Our daughter just announced she's pregnant. Um, my sister's 60th birthday and I just have to say that was really big. Our family came in, but I think the biggest part for me is that everybody I love.

Is getting old. And my sister used to say she always wanted to be, um, you know, the, the younger sister. And so, um, uh, so now, well actually that's not how it goes. She was always glad to be the older sister. That's what it is, right? But now she's willing to trade places with me and said that backwards and she's willing to be the younger.

Sister, let me press on. And of course the opposite was true for me. I wanna be older, but now I'm good being four years behind her. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, we also had some hard family news this summer and we'll talk a little bit, um, just more about that kind of high level, but probably the, you know, one of the highlights of the summer, um, that we'll be hearing a lot about is we walk through this season is my trip to Israel.

Mm-hmm. Yes. We are looking forward to hearing all. The things that you have learned? Well, all the things are gonna overwhelm you and me both. So I'll try to, I'll try to monitor what I actually share. You know, people get back and they're like, why wanna hear everything? I'm like, no you don't. Mm-hmm. It's just way too much and we're still processing so much of it.

But we did spend 14 days in Israel with um, um, a podcaster. His name is Marty Solomon, and he's a Messianic Jew. And, um, we just went all the way from the southern part of Israel, which was the desert all the way to the very tip, and then side to side. You know, Israel's not a very big, uh, country. That really surprised me, and I've had a lot of people ask me, like, Brenda, looking back, what was your favorite moments?

You know, what, what was the thing that you most enjoyed? And it's been really interesting to me that my favorite place of all the places we toured was actually the time we spent in the desert. Hmm. And, um, yeah, so you think of all the places you could go, the desert, and I'm gonna explain why, because it was very personal for me.

Um, I learned that at least 80% of the biblical imagery we read about, you know, we read the Psalms and, and we see all this imagery. Des is, is is from the desert. So I mean, there's a ton of imagery. Mm-hmm. And the desert actually doesn't look a lot like I thought it was gonna look. I was thinking flat, lots of cactuses.

You know, I've got a kind of a western view of what the desert looks like, but it's very sandy and very rocky, but very mountainous. Mm-hmm. Um, it's a very unattractive land. And it was un. Unreasonably hot. I mean, I think with the heat index we were hiking five and six miles a day in like a hundred to 1,520 degree heat.

Oh. So, um, yeah, we were really in there in the Negev, uh, getting the full experience of what it might would've been like to be Abraham or the Israelites. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, one of the things I learned there that was really impactful to me is that after 400 years in Egypt, God brought the Israelites out of Egypt through the.

To Mount Sinai where he invites them into a covenant relationship with himself. And I learned that, that, um, that that invitation is actually a wedding ceremony. Hmm. And so the giving of the 10 Commandments, the people saying, yes, we will obey and follow you, this is all just imagery of wedding. And Alex guess where God then decides to take his people on their h.

Mm. I don't know if I wanna know. Yes. Well you're, if you're, you're, you're right, because you don't wanna know into the desert. Mm. So you think about after a marriage, a husband and wife, you know, move in together and. The first thing they do is they go and celebrate their honeymoon. And it is interesting to think about, this is the Garden of Eden.

This is the first time that God says I'm gonna come and live with you. You know, the tabernacle is built. Mm-hmm. And he dwells with his people in the desert. And so I learned that the desert represents the places in our lives where God takes us to shape us into the kind of people he wants us to be.

Mm-hmm. Of people who trust him. And so, Alex, when we think about the imagery of honeymoon, like can you think of a time in your life maybe that's really difficult? Um, was, but you know, you wouldn't go back to it because it was really hard, but you wouldn't change it because of the intimacy you experienced with God.

Yeah, I think it's a great question for right now, because the last several months I've been, had a resurgence of str struggling with chronic pain, and it has taken me back to the days where pain literally ran my life. And so it was kind of teeth gritting. I had toddlers, and so I had to continue to function and, um, it was, it was a lonely time.

It was the time of a lot of despair because I. See much change or hope, and it was probably 10 years of a stretch where pain and the inflammation in my body ruled my life. And it's true what you're saying. Like there are also, um, moments throughout those years of. Some of the deepest intimacy I ever had with the Lord.

And it's that weird feeling of I, I don't ever wanna go back, but I wanna have that part again. Exactly. Mm-hmm. I, yes, I want the honeymoon without the pain. Well, mm-hmm. You know, one of the other things I just learned is that those times, or some of God's favorite times too, not because God enjoys seeing us in the pain.

But he loves it when he has us all to himself when we draw close to him. Mm-hmm. And it's like God is just saying, you know, in those times when we're in the desert, I love this because it's just you and me. Mm-hmm. And that was so precious to me, and it's really given me a new way to even think about the desert places.

But when I left for Israel, you know, I was experiencing a desert place in my own life, a real anguish of soul, um, over a family situation. And it really seemed very impossible and it was very painful. Mm-hmm. And I'll never forget just walking in the desert and it's hot and I'm sweating and I'm thinking, I've only been here three days, Lord.

I mean, the Israelites we're here 40 years and I'm already ready to get out of this place because when you're in. You know, you wanna get out of it. It's only looking back that you can see the sweetness of it. But anyway, I'm hiking along and all of a sudden I just look up and I look to the front and there's just mountains and sand and dirt.

And I look to the right and I look to the left and I look behind me. And no matter which way I turned Alex, everything just looked the same. And once you begin to, you know, and, and, and every direction also looks impossible, like there's no way to go because anywhere you go you're just gonna end up with more desert.

Um, and you know, I think that what I really realized, I had an aha moment because I realized that in the desert, your eyes, do you know good. Mm. And the Holy Spirit whispered to me, are you gonna live by faith? Are you gonna live by sight? Mm-hmm. Um, you know, we can't keep our eyes on our circumstances. We have to keep our eyes on the Lord, because you won't survive in the desert without God's protection and provision.

Mm-hmm. And, um, so much of the biblical imagery has to do with God's protection and his provision. He's like a rock or a tree providing shelter from the wind or a refuge. Storm or a shadow from the heat or a stream of living water. And in the desert, Alex, God, ministers to us. So that we will then know how to minister to others.

Mm-hmm. And that's really the whole point of this entire new series that we're doing. Yes. We're just gonna continue to talk about how God uses these times of wilderness, of desert dry seasons and how he equips us, and then how we in turn take those as places that we can minister to others. So specifically today we're gonna talk about how we prepare our.

Because times in the desert, um, are times of great growth. There are times of great intimacy, as we've already said with the Lord. And I also wanna be careful that we make sure that we're saying like, It's not like desert and then Garden of Eden or desert and pro, like, it's not linear. We remember the Israelites like one more time around the mountain.

You know, like they, they, we, we reentered the desert. And maybe even not just in seasons, but maybe even in the course of a day, we come back into some desert moments or some, uh, desert. Uh, times when we have to sit in grief, we have to sit in suffering, but, um, but we recognize that this is where the Lord prepares us, um, to walk with others.

Mm-hmm. And I think that's a sweet comfort. Um, I have to admit, I'm gonna tell on myself. I have to admit that there is a time in some of my deepest suffering where I said to the Lord, I don't love people enough. I do not love people enough to stay here anymore, Lord. Like I don't care what you're preparing me to do later.

And so that, I think if you're there, it's just a great place to be honest about it. We're not trying to cheer lead you out of it and say, oh, it's all good, because, you know, later you can minister. It's not that when you're there, you, you don't even have a vision for helping other people. But we wanna pull out some.

That, um, we've learned that the Lord has prepared us, that he's equipped us to walk with other people, not to be, um, give false hope or be Suzy Sunshine optimistic, but to be able to just recognize that the Lord is doing a thousand different things in everything he does. And we often, like you said, we cannot see.

Yeah, it's so true. Well, one of the things that strikes me as we get started is, you know, I don't know that anybody's going to hear anything really new, Alex. Yeah, I think it's beautiful. We, you know, the Paul, um, tells the Romans and the Philippians, Hey, I'm gonna remind you about some things that you already know, but it's no problem for me to remind you and it.

Gonna be good for you. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, I think, um, we never get too far away from the basics. Um mm-hmm. And we have to come back to the things, you know, these means of grace that God has given us to receive his ministry so that we can help others. And I was laughing because my husband had cleaned out our office closet this weekend.

And it just looks so great and I've got all these closets and drawers that need to be cleaned out. And I was like, baby, you just inspired me. He goes, yeah, I'm not sure if I inspired you or exposed you. And so I think about kind of this lesson that we're giving is that we wanted to be an inspiration piece, but it also may be a little ex.

Posing as we walk through some of these, um, means that God has given us, you know, the means by which we know his presence, the means by which he listens to us, the means by which he, um, heart, you know, probes, uh, our heart with questions and the means by which he speaks to us. And so, um, these are, uh, you know, not in any order of most important to least important.

We just kind of we're thinking like what has been helpful as we look over the course of our life as we look over the course of our. Um, Christian faith and as we look over the course of even our, um, ministry over the last, you know, 15 or 20 years. Mm-hmm. I think the first thing we just said that, you know, we need to intentionally create space for God.

Mm-hmm. Um, and what do we mean by that? Well, I think that, um, The first thing I would say is, you're right, it's warfare. Like if we are going to, um, spend focused time with the Lord, we are going to have to fight for it. We are gonna have to carve it out. We are going to have to, um, look at what our lives look like and be realistic about what our time commitments are and.

I was thinking this morning just in preparation for this, that I, I hate in some ways that we call it quiet time. It, it just almost seems like a misnomer because what we're really talking about is spending time with God, and I don't know about you, but I sometimes forget that. In the, in the space that I sit down to read the scripture or pray, I forget that the purpose is to commune with God.

Yeah. And so the fight is not just to create the space and the time, but it's also to create the right framework in our own minds that we remember what we're really doing. Yeah, I think that's so good. I think so much of, um, the creating space is just the awareness and the acknowledgement of his presence.

Mm-hmm. And it is true. When we get really busy and our mind gets really cluttered, then it's really easy to forget to remember God. Right, right. In the day today, which, you know, we, again, we have to fight for that. I know for me, you know, um, just being very intentional about prioritizing my time with the Lord.

Um, and also leaving some margin. Mm-hmm. Because life is, the unexpected is always coming. It's right around the corner. Mm-hmm. Um, and the first thing that can get squeezed out of my life is re, you know, remembering the Lord or my devotional time or spending time with him. And so, um, you know, I think it's just very challenging.

We have to be, we have to have an intentionality to pr prioritize. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and every day as we prioritize, then I think we create space in our mind. We. Face in our life, we are, we have a, a mind that's set on Christ in things above. We have an outlook that says, Hey, God is present with me and I need to know that if I'm gonna be present with other people.

Mm-hmm. And I think what goes along with that, and certainly because I'm in a season of sabbatical, I'm thinking about this is. That if we don't build times into our week where we Sabbath, where we rest, um, that we are not going to be able to carry that into the week. And so we sometimes think that. Uh, Sunday becomes our catch all day.

And, and personally, my Sabbath is not Sunday working at a church, but whatever our Sabbath is, we, we can make it a catch all day instead of a true break. And so I think that, um, Sabbath becomes a day where we remember our dependence on the Lord. Mm-hmm. We remember that he's the one who accomplishes his good work in and through us.

It's a day where we enjoy him and his creation. And, uh, one of the things that I've been challenged to do is to remember, um, my husband thinks this is funny, uh, because my counselor calls it Sensual Sabbath. And I was like, no, no, not that sensual, no, but sensual Sabbath meaning to remember to invite our senses into a celebration of God's good gifts.

And so, um, maybe that means preparing a great meal. Maybe that means being outside and being very aware of what we're seeing in hearing in nature. But it's just to remember to engage our senses in a way that brings, um, pleasure in what God has given us. Yeah, I like that. I think that so often in the past I've seen the Sabbath is strictly we have to nap, right?

And we can't do anything fun or good. And um, I love, one of the things Marty from Bema says that he teaches his children is that the Sabbath is the day he says, no work we play. God loves us. Mm. I like that. And, uh, I wish I'd known that when my children were young. I think that's just really beautiful. And, and let me just say that if we weren't commanded to Sabbath, Alex, I would.

Right. I would be completely good to run myself into the ground and to work seven days a week. And honestly, it's really, really hard for me. And I know, um, if you're ministry minded and you love people, it can be even even harder or, you know, really anything if you love projects, and again, not that those things are necessarily forbidden or wrong, I think we just have to know what does Sabbath rest look like for us?

Yes, physically and particularly mentally. Mm-hmm. Having that mental. Sort of that spiritual break. Mm-hmm. So, um, I just, you know, I think we just wanna challenge our listeners to really think, have you created space, physical and mental for the Lord? Mm-hmm. Um, you know, what particular season are, are you in and what might make that difficult.

Mm-hmm. Um, I found in my own life that so often it's the good things. Right. They get in the way of the best things, right? Mm-hmm. It's not because I'm doing a lot of bad or wrong things. I've got a lot of good things going on. Um, but if we don't create a space for God, if we're not intentional, then everything else and everyone else will crowd it out.

Mm-hmm. That's so true. And so let's talk a little bit about what we do in those spaces, because one of the things we wanna direct people to is to remember to know, um, the scriptures, to study the scripture so they both know and grow. And so, um, you know, we tend to approach this scripture sometimes as a self-help book.

This is how we should live, but we need to remember that the scripture. Are, uh, the revelation of who God is. And so we approach the scriptures to know God first and foremost. And in knowing God, we then know and understand more about ourselves. Yeah, exactly. One of the lessons that I learned in Israel, again, my, my Israel's gonna just leak out.

Okay. That's again, yeah. Probably, probably for all the rest of the seasons. Mm-hmm. But, um, our Marty would quote Psalm one often, and, um, if you're familiar with it, it talks about meditating on God's word day and night. And Joshua one eight, we have this. Same idea of meditating on God's word, day and night.

And the word meditate in Hebrew is the word haga. Mm-hmm. And he would say, you have to haa the text. Mm-hmm. And he would yell at, you know, wherever we were from the mountaintop. But basically it's the idea, one of the ways that Hagas used in the Hebrew is the imagery of like a lion who has like gotten his prey and he's just like purring over it and ripping the meat and enjoying, you know, just this meal.

He's, he's. Digesting and chewing and, and, um, and, and loving. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, this meal that he's partaking in. And so I've just really been challenged, uh, to get into the text of the scriptures and ask God to put that in my heart that I would wanna meditate, that I would wanna ha God the text. Mm-hmm.

In that way, not just reading it, but really feeding on it and digesting it as, So let's just talk kind of quickly, just some of the things we do in order to study the scriptures, because it's not just a one size fits all kind of thing, and it's not that we have to do it the same way all the time. What are some of the things you do, Brenda?

Yeah. Well it's interesting because I think as we were preparing for this, I thought, my goodness, I've been a Christian, I don't know, 35 years maybe now, and. My devotionals have looked so different. They've been at different times of the day, depending the season I'm in. Yeah. They've been at different, I've done book studies, I've done topical studies.

I've done, um, you know, read through the Bibles. Um, honestly, right now I'm kind of back to a real simple approach. It's interesting how you sometimes come full circle. I do a three year read through the Bible. I read a chapter a day. I use this little method called soaps. Mm-hmm. Because I love an acronym.

Yes, because I love an acronym. Listen, if you are listening and we teach anything that you can come up and with an acronym for, please, please let us know, because we love an acronym. But soaps is just basically, you're gonna read the scripture, I read the chapter, and then I just ask the Holy Spirit to highlight maybe one thing.

Mm-hmm. And then I observe kind of the text, and then I'm gonna apply. Where's an application? A prayer. A lot of times I'm praying my prayer life just slows right out of, I mean, I'm in Isaiah 44 and I'm texting my family this morning. Mm-hmm. Uh, versus straight out of that, that, you know, particular chapter that I'm praying for them and then share The last part of that is, uh, to share what I'm learning.

And I really try to make it a. Point almost every day. And I may not be like, Hey, this was my devotional this morning. Let me share it with you. But if I'm praying for somebody or I'm entering into a conversation, I just try to have that takeaway with me. Some, some good word, some encouragement from my heart or somebody else's heart that I can have readily on my lips.

Um, if I'm, if God gives me the opportunity to share. Yeah. Um, so kind of a living word for me to be able to then as an overflow, bring some living and fresh water to somebody. Yeah, I love that. And there's so many different bible study methods that we can use. Um, I think it's just a matter of finding the one that works for you or even using a variety of different ones in different seasons.

Um, we spent some time last year at our church doing. Seeing Christ in the Old Testament and asking some very specific questions of the text to be able to see Jesus and the Old Testament. Um, but then there are also seasons where we might find ourselves wanting to go into a particular topic because we've, we're struggling with something specific, I think, um, especially of our seasons of life.

Um, I know when we were both having young children, we did a lot of studies on different aspects of child raising. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know one of the first ones I can remember is when my little angels started lying. Yeah. Like, what, what just happened? They were just, Perfect. And now they're liars. Mm-hmm.

And, um, but you know, you wanna know like, okay, Lord, how I'm gonna, am I going to teach my child what the Bible has to say about lying? And of course we know the Bible says, don't lie, tell the truth. But I wanted to have a more robust understanding of why, because all of God's commands reflect his character.

Mm-hmm. So I didn't wanna just be saying, don't lie, don't lie, don't lie. I wanna be saying, right. Oh, let me tell you why truth is beautiful. Mm-hmm. Let me tell you why the truth. Good and wonderful and why all go well with you when you tell the truth. Mm-hmm. And so really reflecting the heart and the character of God.

Um, and then, you know, realizing, um, also that while I was doing that I was being convicted because at that point in my life, oh, this is a confession. I hope my mom won't hear. But I would, I just felt like I would tell my mom little white lies. No, it would just be so dumb, but it would be like, Um, you know, are you busy today?

And then I would have some excuse. I, instead of just saying, yeah, I'm busy with the kids, it would be like, well, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So any rate, you know, just all, all the ways, um, in that season that I love how the Lord would use that season in as I was recognizing how I wanted to train my children, but then it was coming back to my own heart, right?

Yeah. And so sometimes we do topical studies. Specific things. And then sometimes we do key doctrines that help us, um, just go deeper in our understanding of the, um, the big teachings of God's word. Maybe the character of God, maybe some of the things we talked about in our first season, like justification, sanctification, glorification.

Um, so that, I, I know during this particular season of wilderness, for me, I always say I went to the University of Suffering and I read so many books on suffering, so many different people and some were water for a very parched soul and some I literally threw across the room like, you know, there are just some people who, Johnny Erickson Tida, she can.

Anything about suffering because I cannot argue with her. She has done it and she has done it well. And so there are seasons where we, um, need very specific comfort. We need very specific challenge. And so we may go to key doctrines of the scriptures to, um, to teach us. Yeah. And I love what you brought up as well as that is we can use autobiographies and biographies.

Mm-hmm. To really encourage the testimony of the saints is powerful. Ah-huh. It's so powerful in our lives. Um, I can remember I, when I was a pretty young Christian, I read the Heavenly Man. And it was about, um, a man in China when China was very restrictive. I don't know if you ever read that one. I did.

Mm-hmm. Um, and every time, I mean, you know, just the, there were so many miracles in it, first of all, and I was kind of trying to make sense of the supernatural versus my Bible and where does all this fit in? And I'll just never forget because he ate God's word. Literally. He, every time he had a page, he would memorize it and then he would eat it because there was so much fear about being caught with the scriptures.

And when he was being tortured, he would. He would just say the scriptures out loud. Yeah. The whole time. But I'll never forget this one line. And it's just funny how like a book may not change your life, but a line will stick with you. Mm-hmm. And um, he said, we don't follow signs and wonders, but sometimes signs and wonders follow those who follow him.

Mm. And that was just kind of a beautiful adjustment for me in that season of my life. Mm-hmm. Um, of just the importance of God's word, but also recognizing that God can work outside of what's normal. And I think, you know, and, and when we, when we read other people's stories, we see the risks they take, we see Yeah.

Um, the strength that they've been given, we see their faith come alive. And really what it does is it gives us hope. Yeah. It gives us hope that if this person can make it through, then um, if God will do this for this child, he will do this for me as well. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, one other thing Alex, I was thinking of is just scripture memory.

Yeah. And, um, I have to tell you that about 10 years ago, I gave it. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know. I hit my forties and I would try to, like, I would memorize it and I would try to go back and review and I couldn't remember anything I reviewed. And so I was like, nevermind God. I will read your text. I will pray your texts.

I will study your texts, but I am not gonna try to memorize the text anymore. Well, one of the challenges in Israel from Marty was to begin to memorize the text. Mm. And he said two things that really freed me up. He said, first of all, He loves the NIV V, the new international version, which, you know, I had kind of left behind for some of the more, little more, um, uh, intellectual translations maybe.

Mm-hmm. But the NIV is what I cut my teeth on and all my early scripture memory was NIV V. Yeah. So I thought, huh, I'm going back to the N I V. And then he said something so key he said, Don't worry about reviewing. He said, it's your job to memorize the scripture. It's God's job to bring it back up when you need to.

Oh wow. Mm-hmm. And that just set me free. So just so you know, you can ask me, you know, next season how I'm doing, but it was so sweet. Here I've got my sister, my brother-in-law. Um, my husband and myself, we meet about once a week and we are all going around reciting our memory verses. Mm-hmm. I love that.

And everybody's over 60, but me, uh, yeah, but I'm, but I'm getting close, but I just thought, how sweet is that? Just to come alive to that again in our lives. So I just really wanna challenge folks, like if you're. If you're not doing it, it's such a beautiful way to meditate and every word mm-hmm. Really comes alive, and then it becomes a part of your prayer life.

Um, and we were really challenged, and I've heard this before, but to memorize like larger chunks kind of in context too, so Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it, and speaking of that, it makes me think, so when I, I kind of left it behind too, Brenda, for a different reason. When I was 40, I memorized the book of Philipp.

And it was life changing without a doubt. One of the most life changing things I've done in my Christian walk. And um, but it was also so hard to haven't gone back to scripture memory like I should. I tried to tackle Romans eight and it just, Oh, it was so intricate. But the thing about Philippians that was so beautiful, and it, it goes into our next point, which is that we have to counsel ourselves from the scripture first.

And when we memorize scripture, we, we have it there ready to counsel ourselves. And so, so much of the book of Philippians, even though I may not have every word or every, every. Perfectly in my head, like you're saying, but the concepts are sunk so deep in my heart that I'm able to draw back on those. And, um, and it enabled me in ti what I, what I found that I loved about it is that I could access it any time or anywhere.

Mm-hmm. And so I had access to the Council of God anytime, anywhere, because I had memorized it, because I had hidden. In my heart. So we have to, we're linking together the fact that scripture memory is a wonderful way for us to counsel ourselves first before we even approach somebody else. We wanna make sure that we are a counselee, that we are allowing the Holy Spirit to, um, minister his word to our hearts and to our story, and that we are learning how to work our story and put it in line with God's story.

And often that means that we are going to have to repent. And often that means that we're gonna have to lament. And so, um, it causes us to take our hearts to the scriptures before we ever approach someone else. And so our greatest ministry growth and, um, usefulness is gonna come from these seasons where the spirit is schooling us and how to repent and how to lament well.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so true. I mean, I think that if we, if we really think about it, our greatest ministry growth and usefulness come from our greatest failures and pains. Yes. And um, and I know for me, Ooh, there's been a lot of repenting in the last five decades for sure. But it's also so sweet to see how, you know, I can really enter into somebody else's struggle in areas.

Particularly, I think people pleasing was such a big issue for me at a, you know, it was one of the things that, uh, really hurt my marriage early on and really made it even hard for me to parent faithfully early on, or be in friendships or ministry, um, anger. There was a season that I really struggled with anger, um, you know, just.

But seeing the Lord meet me in those places and learning how to turn from my sin and turn to him and begin to walk differently, not perfectly, but progressively a little bit at a time. Mm-hmm. Uh, God's faithfulness in, in bringing about the change and encouraging me in that change was so wonderful.

Mm-hmm. And then I, I definitely have to say, I kind of have a whole nother, um, Ministry out of my lament season. I have a child who's, uh, really struggled for the last decade and has been wayward. Um, and so a whole nother ministry has come out of that. And, um, that has been very painful but also very precious, uh, to see and, and even an awareness of like, God does love my family, but he died for his family.

Mm-hmm. And so sometimes, you know, what I'm having to grieve in my own family or the struggle that I'm going through my own family is to benefit his family. Mm. Um, and, uh, again, it's hard, but there's sweetness in that as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, in addition to knowing the scriptures, one of the things that we have to remember also is to become a person of prayer.

That, and I think they just, they go hand in hand because so often I don't know what to pray. And so I have to go back to the scriptures to, to learn and to remember how to orient myself back to the Lord and what to even ask him for. And I know for the past year it's been a, it's been a year filled with conflict for me.

And I have found myself, um, recognizing that, um, I have to do shorter prayers sometimes in seasons of suffering, like. To be almost like I'm, I'm giving it over because if I sit too long in prayer, I move right into worry. Hmm. And so, um, it's been more of an ongoing conversation with the Lord and just, again, it's a, it's really a space for me to recognize my dependence on the spirit.

Um, that it. That, that I can't figure this out myself, so I go to the one who can, and that might have to happen 25 times a day as I carry it throughout my day instead of it just being in this specific time or setting. Yeah, I agree with you. I can remember as an early, um, as a young Christian, one of the first biographies I read was on about George Mueller.

Yes. And if you've read the Georgia Mul biography, you know that he gets up like every morning at 3:00 AM and prays until 6:00 AM and then, yeah, all of a sudden, you know, the children, he's, he's running an orphanage and there's no milk, there's nothing for the children, and it's 6 0 1. The milk truck breaks down right in front of the orphanage and out.

Spills all the milk for the children. And I could just remember thinking, okay, I've gotta get up early. Well at this point, you know, not long after that, I've got little ones and I am up early. But, you know, prayer, uh, God please help me get through the night, is pretty much my prayer. Not, you know, the kind of, uh, fervent prayers on my knees of George Mueller.

And then later on, I think in my Christian walk, I read a call, a Prayer by JC Ryle. And after I read that, I was pretty sure I wasn't even a Christian anymore cause it. So, um, just so stringent in a way, but like you, I think I've just come to realize like there are just seasons where sometimes prayer and particularly prayers of lament.

Um, I know this summer as I was experiencing this painful situation, I mean, um, you know, there was real, real, real deep agony of soul. It was that kind of prayer where you don't even know what to pray and the Holy Spirit's grown, you know, making groans on your behalf. Mm. And it's, um, long periods of just, you know, weeping into your pillow at night.

But I think going back to this idea of presence, if we come into the day with an awareness that we are in the presence of God, that God is our environment mm-hmm. Then we can actually just have an ongoing dialogue. I, I almost all. Almost always never say Amen. Right At the end of my prayers, I just keep the line, you know, open.

And I think that, um, you know, just like I don't feel like I have to be so formal with my husband to have a beginning and end point, like my relationship with my heavenly father is one that can just be ongoing. I wanted just to read one thing. Um, Talking about prayers of lament. So, uh, a good friend of mine, Carol, lost her husband to Ms.

And her daughter from, um, complications with Covid both over the last two years. And she just writes beautiful poetry and it's just, she's been such a blessing to me. But I wanna read what she says about lament, um, lament is God sitting with me until I can rise again. And then he walks out with me into the fullness, goodness, and abundance of life with him.

Mm. That's, and I love that. I think that's gonna be really, really important as we begin to talk about being present with other people. Mm-hmm. Um, is God's sitting with me until I can rise again? Mm-hmm. So I wanna to kind of tuck that, you know, back, um, in our minds a little bit as we move forward. Mm-hmm.

So, um, Alex, can I, can I try something? And you may think this is so corny, but one of the challenges I had in Israel, again, here we go, Israel, is people, I wish you quit talking about Israel. I promise it probably won't go on forever, or maybe it will. But, um, you know, Jesus used a lot of the examples of things that were around him and the rabbis were really good at that.

Like they would look at the mm-hmm. The things that people were familiar with to, you know, to make comparisons and descriptions. And so I had this moment last week about yoga, and I wanna see if it will work, and you can just tell me if I'm completely bombing this because I'm like, forgive me a more visual theology.

Give me a more storytelling theology. Give me like more parables in my common day vernacular and in my context. So, uh, I was really thinking about how so often I prefer other exercises. Um, As opposed to yoga because I can see more immediate results. Yes. Mm-hmm. And so here's a few things that I like in yoga to pray.

One, it requires dedicated focus and that's the main reason I resist it. Mm-hmm. Right. It takes time and some focus, and particularly like some real seriously intersession when we talk about having intercessory prayer, we all know when we're really burdened. For somebody like that is that is sacrifice.

Prayer becomes a real sacrifice of person, of your person. When you do that, it forces me to slow down and check in with my soul. You know, when you go to yoga, you lay down and they want you to check in with your body. Yes. And they want you to see, you know, where is the pain and discomfort? Well, it's really good, like prayer forces me to kind of check in with my soul and say, Hey, where's some pain and discomfort that I can bring to the Lord?

Um, it produces strength, balance, and flexibility or, and you know, that, that really stabilize. The core. And so y'all wanna get out there and, and, um, I know you've had a lot of chronic pain in your life. I'm developing chronic pain because I have neglected yoga mm-hmm. For so many years. We don't wanna neglect prayer.

Mm-hmm. Um, because it does, it's like where are we drawing our strength from? Where are we gonna be balanced and nuanced? Where are we gonna know to be flexible? Um, when we're dealing with people? All of these things that we need. We don't wanna be so rigid. We wanna come bringing the scriptures and people's lives together in our lives together with the scripture.

It builds endur. Because when you go mm-hmm. It takes a kind of some time to, to build up. Mm-hmm. It ends with complete surrender because at the end you lay down on your back with your hands open and they kind of have this whole thing about surrendering. And I thought, wow, prayer is really that work of surrender.

Mm-hmm. Like Wrestl, wrestl, wrestl, wrestl, wrestl. I know I was just at this place this summer where I, for three weeks I wrestled with the Lord. I did not like his answer. I did not like his answer. I did not like his answer. Mm-hmm. And then, So exhausted one night. I mean, literally, I just went, okay, God. I surrender.

Mm-hmm. Not my will, but your will. And I begin to have such a different focus and freedom from that point forward. And then finally there's just proven benefits to the brain and to the body with yoga and prayer. Mm-hmm. But anyway, that's my motto, hearable. I like it. Thanks for, I really like it because my prayer time, um, usually starts on a yoga mat every morning, um, oh.

While I stretch. Yeah. And it has for. That's where I start my prayer time. Yeah. Well, I didn't know that. That is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So I, but you can use that, Alex, you get free to use that. Yes. I'll, I'll, and it's, it's a good reminder that, um, that these things that we're talking about are not things that just, that we always, like you said, it's just not something we always look forward to, that there is, there's just a.

There's just a discipline that comes with preparing our hearts that is often, yeah. Um, not fun and not exciting. And so it's just, it's just every day showing up. Nothing like my Aqua Zumba experience in the same week. Which there's how I thought I looked and the drowning, how I really looked.

Well, let's move on from yoga and such things. Never from prayer though Independence on the Holy Spirit. But one of the things we wanna talk about is how ministry starts at home. Like our preparedness for ministry starts at. Yeah. And, and that's so hard to remember. Sometimes I think the more we get involved with ministry outside the home, we can actually begin to neglect ministry to those who are closest to us, whether they're roommates, husbands, um, uh, children.

It can be easy to just forget and think that ministry is what goes on outside of here. And in here I get to just relax and be myself. And yet, um, we need to remember that the people closest to us are the ones that God has put right in front of. To love and to one another and to pray for, and, um, and so it's a, it's a good reminder that we are being prepared at all times.

That there is, um, all of our lives are both a reason and a season to become prepared as ministers of the gospel. And so you're not missing it if you're not taking a special course or you're not, um, listening to even our podcast, like God is preparing you in everything that he brings to you. Yeah. And I just wanna add to that, that if the people in your home, uh, can't tell the people outside your home that you're, that you're the same person, that's a problem.

Yeah. Um, you know, you, we are, we're in process and we're growing and we're gonna talk about that, but it really is important that we have integrity like, We can't be out there doing ministry, but in our own homes, nobody is feeling well loved and served, um, in this context here. And so I always say who we really are is who we are at home.

And that is a big challenge for me to say, would my husband and my children bear witness that I am progressively growing in sanctification, understanding God's love for me, my love for him, and people. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right. I know we gotta move on because I think this might be our longest podcast ever, and I didn't think we had anything to say, Alex.

No way. Uh, one of the things we just put in there, there may be some value in discovering, um, what your spiritual gift is. Why is that? Well, I just think that, um, there, first of all, there are lots of good spiritual gift inventories out there. You can literally Google it and find a good inventory. Um, it's good to remember that spiritual gifts are not things that are given to us to prove our spirituality, but they are given for the body.

And so literally the spirit is equipping us in specific ways to minister to other people. And so it's almost just. Too obvious that we would need to get some information and begin to understand what our spiritual gifts are. Yeah, and the only thing I would add to that is just there are gifts that are more service oriented and some gifts are more speaking oriented.

And this can be where, ooh, in ministering we can really see how we can come together beautifully in the body of Christ. I, I think about one, um, example of my own life in particular where a dear friend of mine was dying. Of cancer. And, um, I would go over with a group of women and those women knew how to cook and clean and do the laundry, and they had that place sparkling in an hour.

And all I would do is just sit by her side and hold her hand and cry and listen and nod and pray, and cry and listen, the room was over and we all left. Mm-hmm. And, um, and you know, she was ministered too. Those women who could serve did such an amazing job. They did something that I didn't feel as equipped.

I mean, I could serve and do that, but that wasn't my natural wheelhouse. Mm-hmm. They totally were like, you go sit and pray and cry. That's not our wheelhouse. So, yeah. Um, just really beautiful when we, when we kind of know that and nobody's, you know, nobody is off the hook regardless of whether you have speaking or serving.

Everybody's supposed to serve. Everybody needs to, to do, you know, the speaking ministries as well as the serving ministries. But it does help sometimes to kind of know where our gifting may. Yeah. And that speaks to, um, also the idea that in order to be equipped for personal ministry, we need to be involved in community One, to be able to, to practice these spiritual gifts, but also to just be known, to be able to be vulnerable, to take risks and relationships, and to see things that, um, to let other people see things and speak things into our lives that we can't see for ourselves.

Yeah. Um, I don't think I could really emphasize this enough. I think in the modern day church there is a lot of isolation and, um, you know, we can get in kind of an echo chamber with ourselves and maybe just even, you know, want our husband or a best friend, and we really do need to have a. Some real intimate community and then maybe a little broader community so that we can be challenged in our thinking and even challenged in, in our life, you know, and even be just challenged as we're watching other people, how they're living.

Um, so just that gospel community that we are rubbing up against other people, and it's the iron sharpen the iron that's going on. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and, and I think the thing that we realize when we get in community is that change is going to take time. We're not gonna learn any of these things quickly because not only do we not change quickly, the people around us don't change quickly and say, we're gonna have to learn to be patient with the process of growth and change.

Yeah. And I think God is patient and. You know, one of the things that I have struggled with maybe through the years, um, is just the possibility that not only have I not gotten it right for myself, that part, you know, in growth and change and being has been easier. But to think that in the process of growth and change, I've hurt some people along the way.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, whether it's my family because I wasn't mature or whether it was friends or it was teaching a Bible study or even in, you know, my, my counseling ministry. And, um, I almost just feel like, like I really wanna say, if I have ever taught you, spoken to, you tried to minister to you in the sound of my voice right now, and I've heard you, it may have been unintentional.

Just a lack of maturity. I also know at times I've really struggled with pride. Alex, you know, pride. Of knowing certain things and being a certain way, or being the, the go-to person or whatever it is. And so, um, of course we get older and the Lord has a way of humbling us if we don't humble ourselves.

Mm-hmm. And that has definitely happened in my life. But, uh, I think we just have to know that. In our, in our growth process, there will be failure. We're not going to get it right in how we, how sanctification happens in our life, and we're not gonna get it right as we, as we try to minister to other people.

I think the key is, are we humble enough when we recognize it to come back and say, Hey, I was wrong, or I could have done that better. Or, you know, did I hurt you? And just having those honest conversations, so, mm. Yeah, and it's hard to look back and see those places where even though the scriptures haven't changed, we've changed our views and we realized that we would, we would say it differently.

We would do it differently with someone else because of the maturity that the Lord has brought to us. Yeah. And I think that's the tension. You know, there's some tensions that we have to get comfortable with. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think part of the, the tension is, is that we start off not knowing it all. We have the Bible.

The Bible says it all, but we don't know it all. And so we're gonna have to be easily in treated when we're faced with a greater truth to be able to say, Hey, maybe I'm wrong, or maybe I need to do that differently. And I would say, you know, that has definitely been, um, Yeah, it's been, it's, it's definitely been the way my life in ministry has.

Yeah. And I think that as a young believer, we're really tempted to go to the biblical extremes. We don't do this, we do do this, and we wanna stay there because it feels safe, it feels easier, it feels, um, spiritual even to be Yeah. You know, to, to have these hard and fast. Very black and white rules that we live by.

I'm not talking about scriptural commands now. I'm talking about rules that we add to scripture and that what happens in a wilderness, in a suffering time is that God allows us to see that life is very complex and things are not always as black and white as we think, and that actually the, the more mature we get in Christ, things are not as clear as they used to be.

Again, I'm not talking about specific biblical commands, but just life is very compe complex. People are. And if we are willing to go into that tension and complexity into our own lives, we'll be better equipped to walk with other people in those same places. Yeah, I think that maybe a great sign of maturity is that we can live in the tension and we can even live in the gray, right?

Mm-hmm. Where the Bible's not specific, and I think that's really, if the Bible doesn't command it or forbid it, we need to be really careful that we are not commanding, forbidding or, um, you know, in our own lives just putting a lot of extra biblical requirements on ourselves because that will bleed over into requiring extra biblical for other people as well.

Mm-hmm. And, um, we just have to be. Really wise in our own lives and in our own families, I think a lot of this gets really played out in our families because I know that, um, we were gonna kiss dating goodbye, Alex. Yes. And uh, and our daughter just wanted to kiss the boy and so mine too. So that didn't work very well.

Some of the books that we read, and I think particularly like what happens is we get into certain Christian circles and we begin to read from certain Christian authors and they have a certain Christian way of thinking that we ought to be wives or mothers or friends or, uh, you know, workmates or whatever.

And we, we begin then rather than to listen to the Holy Spirit. Talk it out with our husband or our children. Okay. We begin just to bring that information into our homes and try to make that work. And, you know, I just have to say the Lord has gently spanked me more times than I'd like to count for doing just that.

Mm-hmm. Um, so I, I like to say the older I get, I realize that God is very, very, I didn't know how liberal he was. Alex, I'm shocked at how liberal God is. Yes. And by that mean, just his liberality of love. Like he is way more loving, way more kind, way more patient. All of these things than I ever dreamed or imagined.

Yeah. And um, and we need to know that for ourselves and our family members and our neighbors and our workmates and for, um, the people we go to church with, like, we need to remember. Yeah. I think the, the other thing that I've been thinking about that, um, has helped me is to, to that I began to develop some language around the big questions of life.

So to me, the three big questions are who am I? Why am I here, and why do I suffer? And, um, the wilderness will begin if we apply ourselves to. Uh, a study of the scripture in the wilderness, we will begin to understand why God allows suffering and why he has us here and, um, who we are in him. And so, um, not just to be able to have a vague sense of that, but to be able to really develop.

Good, clear language around those things really helped me so that when I approached other people, one, I began to be very sensitive to the different ways that people were asking those questions. And it comes out in different ways and, and two, then I began like, you have language. Now around yoga and prayer, you have a picture, you have a metaphor.

Like I began to have language, especially I think about for suffering. I began to have language for ways that God equips us in it, what some of his purposes are in suffering, and what some of the beauty is in it. And that was because I allowed myself to go deep into my own questions and force myself to go to the scripture and answer them.

So I think even as we seek to live intention, we also seek. Uh, anticipate what the big questions are that people are gonna have and that we, because we have them, and we, um, and we gain language, we gain better, um, word, pictures, metaphors, um mm-hmm. Scripture references so that we are ready to give those answers when people, uh, have the big questions.

Yeah, that's good. I think that the desert places, um, bring a lot of. And help us clarify those questions. Um, maybe a lot more than the good times and the times of, you know, happiness and success. Well, I think it's time to wrap up, Alex. You know, the only thing I just wanna say is, you know, as difficult as it is for us to go to those desert places, um, It can be really, really hard to enter into somebody else's desert place.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And a lot of times we don't like to go there cuz we know how hard it is. We've been there, we don't really want to go there. But I'm hoping maybe if we can see those places more as a honeymoon. Mm-hmm. Um, it will help our outlook for ourselves and help our outlook and wanting to go and help other people.

Um, so in this, you know, podcast series, we, what we wanna do is look at the heart of God and the method of God's ministry model, um, in hopes that we can learn to minister like him. Yeah, so our next episode we're gonna talk about the essence and personal ministry, and we're gonna talk about presence. And it may be o, it may seem obvious, but in some ways I think that it's a good reminder that presence is its own ministry and, um, we're just so thankful.

For Zach and Malia for keeping us on track in so many ways, and we're thankful for, for everyone who is listening and just hope that you will sign up for the email, that you will go to the Facebook page for conversational counseling and that, um, that, that those will be places. Um, that we can have a dialogue that you can give us your acronyms and your, um, different tools that you're gaining and learning from things that you hear us say.

So, um, look for our Facebook page and please sign up for the email and we look forward to talking now about presence with you soon. For visuals and discussion questions for this podcast, sign up@knownministries.org. Because we learn better together. We'd love for you to share this podcast with others and gather to discuss it.