Season 2 Episode 6

Hi, I'm Alex. And I'm Brenda. Welcome to Conversational Counseling or Counseling and Discipleship Meet. We're gonna have to orient vertically to the safety that we have in Christ. He is the only one who ultimately is not going to let us down, and it's only from that place of safety that we're gonna be able to venture.

Out into the risk of any relationship. When you have that invitation, there is always that, that olive branch, there's always that opportunity for the person to come to their senses like the prodigal did and recognize I can change, I can choose wisdom. Okay, season two, it's bigger than forgiveness, and we're finally going to land the plane.

Yep. Episode six. Today we're gonna talk. Store. This is the, um, the peace, the shalom, the wholeness part of forgiveness. And we have been, um, going through an entire season very slowly through forgiveness, and we've been looking at the damages that sin does. To our relationships and how we need to be about restoring them in this fallen world.

And so our last episode, we talked about the relational process of clearing the rubble. And so this episode is more going to be about rebuilding the ruins. What does restoration really look like? Yeah. Oh, I just wanna like, exhale. Yeah. And this is the, the part, the sweetest part of where we want to land right here.

Restoration really means to bring Shalom. Mm-hmm. And Shalom is a Hebrew word, which basically just means more than the absence of conflict, but. To your point, peace and wholeness and completeness. And the reason that's so important in relationships is because if we have that, we will have safety and vulnerability.

Where there's safety, there can be vulnerability. Where there's vulnerability, we can have greater intimacy. Mm-hmm. In relationships. Yeah, so I'm teaching the Be Attitudes right now in my Women's Sunday school class, and it reminds me of this call that Jesus says that we are blessed when we are peacemakers for we will be sons and daughters of God.

Like this is what real restoration is, is calling people into this whole and complete relationships. Yeah, and I think, you know, as we look at restoration, we have. Recognize that sometimes restoration is not going to be possible. Um, and yet what we're looking for is when an offender walks in prolonged repentance, um, that trust is rebuilt and there can be full restoration.

And we wanna talk about both sides of the equation during this time together. Yeah, I'm really glad that we're going to. Spend a whole episode on this because this is where most of the questions about the conflict come in, in counseling with me is, do I have to trust the person when I've forgiven them?

Does that mean that I have to trust them? And the answer is not necessarily. And that's what we're gonna talk about today because not all forgiveness means that we can grant full restoration or a full, um, full rebuilding of trust. That's right. And you know, I just wanna reemphasize we've. Granting forgiveness basically means that we're not going to exact revenge or punishment for the wrong done.

Um, but in restoration, we're going full circle saying not only is that not happening, that's a promise we're gonna make, but we're also saying that there actually is the ability to have a better relationship. Than where we started. And the way that better relationship's gonna come about is when we see that someone, when we are con, continually repenting and we see that the other person is, um, moving forward in repentance and they're committing to changing their behavior.

And so one of the things, one of the biggest questions that arises is, well, how do I really know if someone's repentant? I've got an answer to that, um, because I've been involved with a very difficult situation in my own life where I've been looking and praying for restoration, watching for repentance.

And I'll never forget going to some other people and just saying, how will I know when this person has truly repented? And the answer I got was, you won't have to ask. It's really true. I say to people a lot, when you're looking for repentance and, and it's not there, it's gonna continue. Continue to feel murky and confusing.

Yeah. But when you see it, you will know it. It's so beautiful. Mm-hmm. And Jesus said, you know, you'll know a tree by its fruit. And the Apostle Paul tells us distinctly that people can have worldly sorrow without ever having godly sorrow. And so what we want to do is, again, through the Holy Spirit, you know, we've been through this whole process of even getting to this point where our hearts are continually be made right with the Lord.

That our motivation is continually love for God and our neighbor. That we realize we're on this rescue mission, we're going after centers. Mm-hmm. Or we. Centers, uh, other centers to come after us as sinner to bring about something good in our lives. The, the transformation of looking more like Jesus and having relationships that reflect the grace of God.

And so there's just a few things we would say as we look at, you know, um, what is the difference between worldly and godly sorrow? And what does real repentance look like? Maybe, maybe there's at least a few things we could look for that would mark, um, what repentance would look like. Yeah. And it seems like we keep coming back to this word over and over again.

Humility, we're going to see a humility, a teachability, and even a humility that says that someone is willing to sacrifice in the relationship for the good of the other. And you might can remember what Great dead person said, the three greatest needs in the Christian life are humility, humility, humility.

I don't know if that was Spurgeon or I don't someone else, but I, I remember hearing that quote and it really just stuck with me. Mm-hmm. It's like the three things that we need to pursuing. The three great, you know, attributes are just, Three times. Mm-hmm. And of course, we just always need to be marked by humility.

And I love that idea that you said of tying sacrifice to humility because a proud person does not lay down their life. Right. But a humble person will begin to lay down their life to bring about the wholeness and completeness of a relationship and the good mm-hmm. Of the other person in the relationship.

Yeah. And I think the other way you're gonna see humility play out is that the person's gonna be willing to receive correction when something's pointed out. That's wrong. Yeah, that's, that's very, very, very true. Um, I think we've spoken a lot about how to go and correct well in love. You know, we spend a lot of time talking about that and so we do wanna make sure that we give somebody every opportunity mm-hmm.

To receive that invitation, to come and to be reconciled and to, to restore. Um, and then, you know, another area would just be a growing self-awareness. Sin that quickly leads to confession and asking for forgiveness. So I think when we see somebody beginning to be like, oh, I've caught myself. Yeah, that's, I need to go make that right myself.

Well, I caught myself. I need to go have the conversation. Um, that just really shows us they're working on it. Mm-hmm. That gives us a lot of hope. That gives us a lot of grace. We want to, we wanna be more forbearing long suffering as they're. Yeah, and so here we're peering humility with an intentionality because now I'm not just saying that the burden of the relationship is on you.

I'm taking it on myself, and I'm willing to look at myself, and I'm willing to call myself out, so to speak, and not wait to be corrected. But I'm willing to begin to see the conditions in myself that are, that need to be corrected. Well, another sign of true humility, um, would be a willingness to make restitution and accept consequences.

There are some situations where, you know, we need to make wrongs, right? Mm-hmm. And there's some situations where there are going to be consequences for the choices and the sin, um, you know, making a confession and asking for. Forgiveness doesn't absolve us of consequences. And I've heard somebody say, you can choose your sin but not your consequences.

Yeah. I think this is a really big one that we almost have to slow down a little bit on because that point of making a confession doesn't mean that you do not, that you absolve yourself of consequences. Mm-hmm. Is is really hard. To grasp, it's hard to remember because we would like for that transaction we talked about last time mm-hmm.

To, um, mean that it's over. Yeah. But often we have to acknowledge the scriptural principle that we reap what we sow. That's right. Absolutely. Yeah. I think, you know, a person needs to be willing to express, um, that they'll do whatever they can to make it right. Mm-hmm. And. Let the offended party know that you're ready to accept those consequences.

And it's interesting cuz I can think about it, you know, talking to somebody else that they need to be willing to make restitution and to be prepared to accept consequences. But it's really hard when you're on the, the receiving end of that. Mm-hmm. And you are having to make restitution and you are having to accept consequences.

Um, and, and so I think this is an area again, that we just have to lean into the Lord in the Holy Spirit for him to pour out his grace in our hearts. Mm-hmm. To pour out his grace in the heart of the person that we're talking with. Everything we've ever talked about. And everything we will talk about has to be shrouded in prayer and dependence on the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

Um, these are, Supernatural, um, areas of relating or ways of relating that we're talking about. And so they really require supernatural ability and supernatural help, right? Because if you are the person who has been offended and you are the one who is imposing consequences, so to speak, that's gonna take a great deal of wisdom and discernment too, to know how to most wisely, uh, give consequences where you're not moving into punishment.

Yes. And you know, it's just not retribution and. Seeking but you, but there really is just an acknowledgement or, or some natural connection to mm-hmm. Uh, what the consequences are. Yeah. That's good. Um, well, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, I think this just tells us that we do need to be cautious as we move forward with people.

We don't want to be. Unloving in the sense that we are not willing to recognize or acknowledge or allow change to happen. Sometimes we can cast people like back in how they've been, and we never give them the room to ground. Right. You're never gonna change. You're never gonna change. Exactly. But at the same time, we don't wanna rush in.

And I've been guilty of this. I'm, you know, I'm a Enneagram seven, and so I love a good party and I don't like people to feel poorly. And so I wanna rush in and just assume that you've made one. And so I'll take the other nine and run to you Right. Every single time. Mm-hmm. Um, and just recognizing that sometimes we need to let people make a few more steps to build that trust.

And I think this goes hand in hand with recognizing that what we're looking for is fruit in a person's life. And both of these things are gonna take time. It's gonna take time to, to build a track record of repentance. Mm-hmm. And it takes time for fruit to grow. And so, um, time is just a huge element when we're trying to.

Repentance. And again, it's the humility of someone who's willing to say, I understand if you don't trust me now. Mm-hmm. But I'm committed to earn your trust back. I'm committed to, to take the time. Mm-hmm. For you to see the fruit in my life takes a great deal of humility and patience and um, and that is its own sign of repentance.

Yeah. And that really reminds me of just going back to release because so much in that process we have to continue to release any temptation to bitterness, continue to take our lament to the Lord. Mm-hmm. Because it's hard, it's sad when somebody's struggling and they're continuing to hurt us. Um, you know, it's, it's really, really hard and, um, it will require us really trusting the Lord to do that.

Mm-hmm. You know, another area that we just need to remember is that sad emotions don't necessarily mean someone is rep. It just may mean that they don't like the consequences and they're hurting from the consequences, and this is the part that makes that what we talked about. It's confusing and it's murky when it's not there or we're not sure if it's there because, um, there can be a lot of sorrow over what I've done, but not a sorrow That, a sadness that leads to real repentance.

It's really sometimes a sorrow that just says, I don't wanna hurt. I know I've hurt you and now I don't wanna hurt anymore. So I want this to all go away. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And people are just, sorry, they get caught. Sorry. You get, you see that with children? Mm-hmm. You know, raising our children. I'm just, sorry I got caught and I don't like these consequences.

Um, but there's not real. Real sorrowing. There's not a real deep desire to change, to please the Lord or to bring restoration in the relationship. And that's where I like that. We talked last time about when someone really understands the impact of what they've done, they're willing to move out of their own sorrow and move into yours.

Oh yeah. And so that moving into your sorrow, I think is, is one indicator that it's not just, uh, I don't like the way I feel, but I'm really fully entering into, and I'm understanding and even feeling your hurt in a real empathetic way. And I think now we're getting into godly sorrow that's gonna lead to repentance.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you know, there are cases that we come across that are just really, really hard to discern if repentance is occurring, and, um, this is where we really have to go back again and just depend on our superpowers. Mm-hmm. You know, that people are walking, that we're walking closely with Jesus, that we're evaluating people based on what Jesus says.

Um, that we are prayerful and dependent on the Holy Spirit and that we are engaging other people to come alongside. And, you know, I think we're, we're really hesitant a lot of time to invite other people into our mess. Mm-hmm. Um, and the, you know, just the mess of our, our relationships. And I know for Paul and I, one of the sort of standing rules we've had in our marriage, if you are guidelines, is we've always tried to predetermine one or two people that we both feel comfortable the other could go to, to have a conversation with.

Mm. And that way if we get stuck mm-hmm. And we just really, you know, we, we've gone through the part of even, you know, we, we know that we've forgiven each other, we've done that whole part of reconciliation, but we're really having a hard time moving forward. Mm-hmm. Then I can say, honey, would you go talk to so and so?

Or he can say, I'd really love it if you had a talk with Alex about this. Or could we go both talk to Alex or go talk to you know, someone else? And so I think it's just really very important even. The normal kind of problems, right when we get stuck, but particularly when we get into issues that are incredibly difficult, if you're dealing with somebody who's abusive or somebody who's an addict, or somebody who's, you know, um, incredibly irresponsible, abandoning their responsibilities, um, you know, adultery.

I mean, these are just issues that require, and, and the people are saying they're rep. Right, right. Then these are gonna be issues that really require a lot more people weighing in and wisdom, because the other part of that is because we are highly emotional, sometimes we will just go off our emotions, right?

We want, we want the person to repent. We want to see repentance because we want restoration and we don't want any more damage done. Mm-hmm. We want to trust the person. Um, and so, you know, we really sometimes need help in that arena. Yeah. There's an article by Darby Strickland. On evidences of true repentance.

And I think we'll post that because it's, it's a very helpful article and again, it's just another resource to help us see if what we see is what we're really seeing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So there are times when we do this evaluation of whether someone is repentant and we, we decide that we are not going to allow.

The re relationship to be fully restore restored, or another way of saying it is we're not going to place our trust back in someone at this point. So as a general rule, if the offender has not repented or not acknowledged their sin and does not as forgiveness, reconciliation is not warranted. That's what Aaron Cerone says.

He says, the decision to reconcile is always impacted by the duration and severity of the sin. I just wanna say that again. The decision to reconcile is always impacted by the duration and severity of the sin. Al. We love our, our friend Sherry Tate, who we counsel with, she says We don't handle a $5 offense in the same way we handle a $5,000.

Offense. And so, you know, that just means the small offenses are not gonna take as long, um, to earn back trust, um, in, in repentance as a deep ongoing offense will. Right. It's gonna take a lot longer. And here again, we need other council to help us even determine is this a $5 offense or a $5,000 offense?

Yes. Because some of us tend to minimize offenses against ourselves and don't see a, you know, $5,000. Is that big, and then others of us or in room, yeah. Maximizers maximize that offense. And we see every offense is a $5,000 offense. Mm-hmm. So there is even some counsel that comes into determining what level of offense is there so we can begin to communicate what it will take for full restoration to happen.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I just can't stress enough how. This is why people come to counseling. Yes, this is why they show up in our office. But you know, one of the things that we're hoping through this podcast of conversational counseling is that as our listeners, um, learn these principles and apply them to their own lives and their own sphere of influence, then they are going to have greater impact and be able to enter into these kind of conversations.

Because these conversations are happening, happening all the time. These kind of conflict is coming up trying to decide and have discern and wisdom. And to be honest with you, there's just not enough counsel. Professional counselors mm-hmm. Out there because every single person, even the counselors Yes.

Are struggling with this and need help. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, you know, this is so much of just a, a one anothering mindset. Like, if we know this and we practice it and we do it, um, then we will be equipped and ready and feel confident, confident, and confident to, to walk alongside other people. Mm-hmm. That's good.

I think it can be hard to. That full reconciliation would not be a biblical concept or that the Bible would say, there are places where we would not fully reconcile in restore, restore, restore relationship. And so, um, one of the, one of the narratives that we point to is a story of Joseph that we, we see that, that Joseph withhold.

Full reconciliation and restoration until his brothers acknowledge their sin and express true sorrow and demonstrate a true change of heart through their actions towards their other brother Benjamin. And so we, we see Joseph acting with wisdom and discernment and carefully. He carefully and intentionally waits and watches before he entrusts himself to them.

Mm-hmm. And even at that point, It was risky. It was risky. Right? It feels risky. Mm-hmm. Um, either it is risky or it feels risky. I think it often feels risky, even if it's not, if the person has made a lot of progress in, um, restoring the trust that's been broken. So it's. Some point, you know, we're going to have to make ourselves vulnerable.

If a person is demonstrating trustworthiness, if they're demonstrating repentance and they're moving forward again, we're going to have to be willing to little by little begin to place our trust back in the relationship, and we have to realize that we are at a risk of being hurt. There's no way to avoid it, and in fact, there's a good possibility we probably will be hurt again by this person and maybe in the same area.

But what we want to know is that there has been progress, that they're working on it, that they are actually making progress. That we are really seeing repentance, because repentance isn't instantaneous. It's that process of sanctification we've talked about in these three things. You know, it's going to take time for this person to begin to put off their old ways of relating and to put on their new, and to get their own hearts right before the Lord.

So we even have to, you know, really fore bear with somebody. Mm-hmm. Lean into the Lord as somebody is developing trust. Mm-hmm. And to be patient and you know, and willing. Right. And I think we talked early in these podcasts about orienting ourselves vertically to the forgiveness that we need to receive in Christ in order to be able to extend it to others.

And at this point in a relationship where it's time for restoration, we're gonna have to orient vertically to the safety. That we have in Christ, that we're utterly and completely safe, that he's our shield, here's he's our defender, and that he's the only one who ultimately is not going to let us down.

And it's only from that place of safety that we're gonna be able to venture out into the risk of any relationship, let alone one where there's been hurt that's spelled up. Mm-hmm. Or the hurt is just so severe. Mm-hmm. The sin is so damaging. Mm-hmm. Well, I think one of the things we also have to consider is just what kind of person we're talking about when we're, when we're trying to decide like, are we going to reenter this relationship?

Are we going to place our trust? At what level are we gonna trust this person? At what level are we gonna be involved with them? And we really need to be able to distinguish between the wise. Person, the foolish person or the evil person. Yeah. So these are categories that Dan Aller teaches in his book, bold Love.

And um, I think we'll also share a video by, uh, Dr. Henry Cloud on wise, foolish, and evil person. And this is a hard teaching because we don't wanna be people who walk around just lowering our gavel on who's wise, who's foolish and who's evil. And yet there's some part of what scripture. To of discernment in what level of relationship we enter.

And so this is not a judgment saying this person is or is not saved. This is not. But this is a, um, this is a, looking at the fruit of, um, repentance and obedience in a person's life and determining how much we're gonna entrust ourselves to them. And so, um, what we see, Write off is what we said. Repentance is is usually clear.

It may take time, but it's clear. And that a wise person is a person who is continually repenting. Mm-hmm. You're gonna see humility in a wise person. You're gonna see sacrifice, you're gonna see all these other things we've talked about, not perfectly, but faithfully. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But then a foolish person is going to be someone, and again, we're not, I'm not calling you a.

No thank you. The Bible make all you fool. But, um, a foolish person is gonna be somebody who, when the spotlight is shown on their heart or their behavior, that they turn the spotlight away from themselves and they deflect that, and, and the result is a lack of repentance. So again, we talked about pointing and hiding.

They're a person who's going to continually. Blame shift, justify their behavior and ultimately not take responsibility for what they have done nor change their behavior. And it's almost like, um, it's more to protect themselves. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, more that they just don't want harm done to them.

They're protecting themselves, they're putting the walls up. Yes. And, and so I hope when we describe that, we all recognize we are fools. Mm-hmm. We've all been foolish. We all will be foolish at times. We don't all immediately take responsibility for our behavior. Mm-hmm. And that should help us to even enter into this.

These categories of thinking graciously. Mm-hmm. Because we are all, all of these things at some point, and then this is a really hard one, Brenda, to call someone evil feels even hard sometimes for me to say the word. Mm-hmm. And yet when we are confronted with real evil, with someone who is bent on the destruction of another person mm-hmm.

It may be hard for us. To, um, get to the point where that's our conclusion, but there is something freeing when we realize that there are some relationships the Bible actually cause us to flee from. Mm-hmm. And this is where we're talking about issues of abuse and like you said before, addiction, abandonment, severe trauma where the, where we see destruction over and over and over again.

Almost a commitment to destruction versus a commitment to flourishing. And so we need. Search to help us make a decision like this, but we do have to acknowledge that we will encounter people like this, and it has to be part of a paradigm of thinking. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's really, really hard for people in the church.

Very hard. And I think about just, you know, Jesus talks about the wheat and the tears are gonna be in the church together, so we're gonna have people who are wise and walking with Jesus, people who have moments of foolishness. Mm-hmm. You know, I think there are people who are characterological fools.

Right. Um, you know, as well. And then people who are evil, like they are all going to be sitting in the pews. There is the, the wolf that's in the sheep's clothing. Mm-hmm. And I think so often in the church, it is just really hard for us to have that category that would be inside of our walls. Mm-hmm. But there is evil and there are evil people who come into the church to devour the sheep.

Right. And the church has got to be aware of that, willing to call it, willing to name it, willing to do something about it, and protect those. People who are going to be in harm's way from that sort of person. Right. That's the key word right there. Like the church has a duty to protect. And so we are going as much as we long to see lives change, we can't, uh, always assume that the Holy Spirit is active in changing someone, and we have to be discerning about that.

And so we, we also have to realize that imposing consequences in those places is not. Punishment. Mm-hmm. It is consequences that we can do that from mm-hmm. From a heart that is about protection and that when we choose not to enter back into full restoration, where we're, where we're fully trusting someone, we're not punishing them like we do have to purify our own motives, but that it, that, that the withholding of relationship is a consequence itself.

Of a lack of repentance. Yeah. And I think the Bible is clear that the motivation for that is always love when anybody. You know, put outside the church or hand it over to Satan or what, whatever the verbiage is being used, the motivation is still love. Like we are still mm-hmm. Are wanting this person to come to the reality of their waywardness, their wickedness, their sinfulness, and to be brought to receive mm-hmm.

The forgiveness that we've talked about, you know, at the beginning of this, um, series. So, um, exactly the consequence there would be. Really motivated out of love still. Mm-hmm. You know, it's almost like what you're saying is, I'm going to step back or completely step away from this relationship because staying in it is not allowing two things.

It, it's not allowing you to continue to have access to me and keep sinning. Mm-hmm. And it, it. And maybe me staying in it is actually blocking the path of the Holy Spirit convicting you. Mm-hmm. And so me removing myself is making space for the Holy Spirit to come in and bring about the true godly sorrow that leads to repentance.

Mm-hmm. Now, where I see this get the trickiest, and I'm sure you do too, is when we are talking in marriages where there has been betrayal or deep friendships where there's been betrayal and someone. To trust again, but, um, but you can't command someone to trust. Mm-hmm. Even when there's a longing to trust, automatic trust is not, um, is not implied in the definition of forgiveness.

Mm-hmm. We can release someone from. The, uh, wanting revenge on them, release them from hurting them and grant forgiveness. But recognize that trust is not gonna be automatic. It takes time. Even Proverbs 25 19, you know, tells us confidence in an unfaithful man in the time of trouble is like a broken tooth and a foot out of joint.

Like, ouch. I love these word pictures that that powers me. Okay. So you're not gonna walk on a broken foot because you might fall. Mm-hmm. You're not gonna chew on a broken tooth because it's gonna cause you pain and it's not gonna be effective. Like, you're not gonna put confidence in those, um, disabled body parts.

And in the same way, you're not gonna put confidence in someone who is not trustworthy. Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. Well, I think. Verse that's just great is Proverbs 4 23 above all else, guard your heart for everything you do. Flows from it. Mm-hmm. I mean, our heart is the wellspring and there is a sense in which we do need to guard our hearts.

And, um, I love what Leslie Vernick says that, you know, a guarded heart is not a hard heart because I think sometimes, When we That's really good. Yeah. When we recognize that we need to, um, guard our hearts, it can feel like we're being punitive. Yes. It can feel like we are hardening our heart toward another person.

But I love what she says. She says, A guarded heart wants God's will for your life. Mm-hmm. But a hard heart won't listen to God or others and is proud and unrepentant. So, you know, you're, you're not the party when, when, when restoration is not possible. The person who's having to step away is not the hardhearted.

Right. It's the person who won't rep. Who is the hardhearted one, and we get the, we've gotten this wrong for so long. We really have, because we have tried to convict the person who's stepping away by saying that you're acting in vengeance or you're acting in self-protection and mm-hmm. And, and so therefore you, you are hardhearted.

Yeah. Well, self, the equalizing, self-protection with vengeance. Yes. When it's like, no. I mean, I know in my own life, I'm in a situation where I've had to do this and. My heart is not hard at all. Right. But to your point, for this person to have kind for God, to have a beeline to this person, yes. I needed to get out of the way.

Right. And that's not that. That's right. This is not self-protective. It there, we call it selfish, but it's not selfish. Yes. It's just a guarding of your own heart. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I really like that Leslie Ver quote. Mm-hmm. That's helpful. Mm-hmm. And I think what we recognize there too is, is you know, Jesus saying over and over again, like I'm not.

I'm not ready. My time is not yet come and I'm not, he wasn't entrusting himself mm-hmm. To certain people because he knew what was in their hearts. He didn't just entrust himself to everyone. Mm-hmm. And he didn't do it all at once. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he didn't, you know, have what we'd say true Christian Fellowship was certain people Right.

That were not repentant. Right. You know, he, how he approached people was very different. Yes. And so we can, you know, learn from that. His example as. So this is gonna bring up the whole concept of boundaries, because as soon as we're saying this about, um, people who are untrustworthy, the question is gonna be, the first one that's usually asked is, is boundaries a biblical term?

Which I think is really interesting because you can probably look in your concordance and not find the word boundary mm-hmm. Or Trinity, right? Yeah, exactly. Boom. So is by, but what, but, but the, but the right question is, is it biblical? Term, is it a biblical idea? And I think we almost see from Genesis one, they're boundaries, like God's dividing things and he's separating them and he's drawing lines.

Mm-hmm. Heaven and earth, light and dark. Mm-hmm. We see boundaries Right away we see order created. And so several years ago I gathered some friends who are counselors in my office and I said, okay, the, the traditional definitions of boundaries feel a little weak. Mm-hmm. And they feel a little hollow to me.

So we're going, we're not leaving this room until we come out with a good definition of boundaries that we all feel comfortable with biblically. And I think we got to something really good. And the first thing is that boundaries are an invitation. And I love that idea. A boundary is not a demand, it is an invitation and it's an, I'm inviting another person to treat an image bearer of God the way that God says they should be.

So it's recognizing that the standard is not my standard. I'm not telling you how I need to be treated. Mm-hmm. The standard is outside of me. Mm-hmm. It's how God who created us says that we should treat one another. And it's also recognizing a third thing. It's recognizing that. I am a fellow image bearer.

And I know that may sound crazy, but when we've been in a relationship where we continue to believe that I've got to sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice, and sacrifice is not bad. But we can sometimes forget that we are an image bearer who's also worthy of dignity and honor and respect. Mm-hmm. And so we can be here, we're here in that dorm at theology, right?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like I'm beginning to. Someone else to treat me like a doormat in, in the name of humility. But really God doesn't hold me to that level of self-sacrifice that's destructive and damaging. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's so good. I think my favorite definition by Brad Hamrick is, um, bound a boundary is not a line between you and me, but a line between foolishness and wisdom.

Mm-hmm. And your word invitation. So good. Because basically what you're doing is you're always inviting somebody into your wisdom. Into wisdom. It's like, if you come into my wisdom, we will be restored into God. God's God's. Wisdom. Wisdom. Yeah. Sorry. If you're coming into Brenda's, wisdom goes, I'm all wise.

Yeah. No, that would be dangerous. Yes. If you, but your wisdom is God's wisdom. That's it. That's what I was meaning to say. It's just nuanced. Thank you, Alex. Um, yeah, but you know, really just this invitation. You know, I've, Dr. I've, I've drawn this line because your foolishness is destructive and damage. To you and to me.

And the reality is, is that if you stay in that relationship, you will, you will only create more rubble mm-hmm. In the relationship. Yes. Like if you stay in that where somebody is destructive and they're destroying themselves and because they're damaging and destructive, they're, they're damaging and destroying you.

Like there is no hope for restoration. You are just doing more and more. You're just tearing down, tearing down, tearing down, tearing down. And, but when you have that invitation, there is always that, that olive branch, there's always that opportunity for the person to come to their senses like the prodigal did.

Mm-hmm. And recognize like, okay, I, I can change, I can choose wisdom. Mm-hmm. And to repent. Mm-hmm. And that's what, that's what we're looking for. So I, I like what you, I like all those definitions your group came up with. I think that's just so helpful. And I personally have been one of those that I. Really have had to think through the whole boundaries issue in a relationship in my own life and have, have found a lot of the, I think, traditional definitions, like you said, hollow and almost responded negatively, and then found myself swinging to the other side.

Right. No boundaries. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And this is just selfishness and just kind of trying to come back to say, but wait a second, this is destroying this person. This is destroying me. This is destroying even chance, a chance for us to have a future relationship. Mm-hmm. Because there's more and more, and more, and more and more damage done.

And they're looking less like an image bear. They're treating me less like an image bear and you know, it's just, it's just horrible. And so I need to take a step away. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, um, I just wanted to give two examples of where I've seen restoration in my own life. Mm-hmm. Um, work. Work and where restoration has not been able to, to come about.

And, um, you know, probably the place that I've seen it the best is in my own marriage. Um, Paul and I are just at a place, you know, we've just had, we've had this, this ongoing process and all of these ongoing discussions and this ongoing, um, Working toward restoration of our marriage. It's not a one. It wasn't like a one time thing, right?

I mean, in 30 years this has been a process that we've repeated over and over and over and over again, and thankfully, by the grace of God and by the growth of God, we've gotten a lot better in resolving conflict and coming together. And I just wanna say that, you know, at this point, when I look at our relationship, there's so much restoration.

Mm-hmm. The Lord has truly, um, you know, restored us the years the, the locust have eaten, and the Lord has really allowed us to have such a sweet friendship. Mm-hmm. So much sweet fellowship. Like, I think shalom, I think peace, I think wholeness. I think there's safety in the relationship. Mm-hmm. Transparency and vulnerability in the relationship, and there's greater intimacy.

Like I can open up and say, look into me. Mm-hmm. And he can open up and say that, and it's enjoyment. I mean, we forget sometimes that there's just real joy in this type of. Restoration and wholeness in a relationship. Yeah, but I do wanna say it took praying and working and depending on the Lord to get to this place.

It wasn't, I think we just want that instantaneous, like, okay, well we've had this one conflict with my husband and or my child or a friend, and it ought to be, you know, we ought be good for the rest of our lives. It's really, it's just like sanctification. It's a lifelong process because two people are being sanctified in this.

Us, and I always say, who would not want to be married to Jesus? Mm-hmm. Like the whole key to this has been the more Paul has grown in his faith to look more like Jesus. And the more I've grown in my faith to look more like Jesus, well, Jesus is the most complete, whole kind, loving human being. Right. Then we are able to have that sort of sweet friendship and sweet relationship with one another.

Mm. So, um, you know, just say, hold on. If you're, you're in a, if you're in a situation that seems really hard, but both people are committed to growth mm-hmm. And growth can be stubborn. Mm-hmm. We can be stubborn. Right. You know, in that growth. And because I've heard you talk about it, Brenda, I know that, that, that growth looked like probably.

Seasons where maybe you were doing more repenting and seasons where Paul was doing more repenting. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Right. Which meant usually one of us may have been more hurt or more frustrated. Right. Right. Along the way. Mm-hmm. But I think that's where just, you know, going back to remembering, um, when we just continually remember our own sinfulness before the Lord and in the marriage and how much grace we've been given, then we wanna really bend that down.

But it's daily. Mm-hmm. It is daily walking with the Lord and doing. And then I have another situation in my life, a very close relationship where there has not been able to be restoration. Um, and there has been a lot of overlooking. Mm-hmm. And a lot of confronting, but no reconciliation. This person really has not taken ownership.

Um, and the sin is really damaging. Mm-hmm. It's damaging to him. It's damaging to me. And so we just cannot move forward mm-hmm. With restoration. Mm. And I think about in First Corinthians, you know, five 11, Paul warns the church to not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother, sister, which this person does, but they are habitually engaged in harmful and unrepentant, sinful behavior.

Mm-hmm. You know, the sin has like actually become their identity. It's not just what they do, it's who they are. They're characterized by it. Yeah. And, um, Paul said, don't even eat with such a person. Mm-hmm. And really, if you think about the idea of eating is this, like, don't have an intimate mm-hmm.

Relationship. Mm-hmm. Don't have this. And, and, and we already established, like, to have an intimate relationship, you have to have trust, right? So you're not gonna have, have an intimate relationship because there's just not the trust there. But let me just say what this. Doesn't mean, I mean, even though restoration has not come, first of all, I'm still hopeful.

Mm-hmm. And I'm still prayerful. Mm-hmm. Um, I haven't lost hope because until one of us has gone to be with Jesus, then there's still the hope that it could happen. That's really good. Um, I love this person dearly. Mm-hmm. It's not like, You know, we can't be restored and I'm glad. Mm-hmm. It's like I love them dearly and I love for restoration.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I have God's heart for this person. Like my heart is completely for this person. Mm-hmm. Um, I do guard my heart against bitterness, and that goes back to the releasing. Mm-hmm. Um, there's things that he has asked my forgiveness for, and I can remind myself of those promise. Is, but even where he hasn't asked forgiveness, I can continually release this desire for vengeance or getting even or wanting him to know.

I think the main thing is like, I want you to know how much you've hurt me. Mm-hmm. I want you to know how hard this has been. Um, you know, and that's just would be my form of vengeance and punishment, and so I just continually guard my heart, like what would that accomplish? Mm-hmm. There is a time, and I have spoken to.

In loving ways about the impact of the sin. And that's different. We've talked about that. Like to go and say, Hey, this is how this is impacting me because I want him to be aware. Mm-hmm. That this is why there are consequences to what's going on, but not in that punitive, vengeful route. I wanna hurt you way.

Um, and you know, when given the opportunity, which the opportunity comes, we're not, you know, in. Regular contact or fellowship, but I gently warn this person and remind him of God's invitation to comfort and change. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, that invitation from his foolishness into God's wisdom is an invitation that the Lord will comfort you in your shame, in your guilt that you're dealing with, and he will bring about the change to restore you to become the person that God intended you to be.

Mm-hmm. And I've seen that person and I know that person is glorious. Mm-hmm. Um, and again, I just long for that. Yeah. It reminds me of, I think it's genesis. 30 of Jacob and Esau, you know, they're coming back together for the first time and it's almost like what is about to happen here? And they make this beautiful covenant with one another.

Mm-hmm. I always think it's funny cuz people used to wear these around their neck. You remember the Ms. Pacos, do you remember this? Yeah. And the Ms. Pacoin, like one person will wear one Hef and one will wear the other and it says the Lord, watch between you and me. When we're apart from one another.

Everybody's like, oh, it's so sweet. It. Really wasn't that sweet. It was really this covenant between Jacob and Esau, where they're basically saying, we only have the cross between us. I mean, they weren't saying the cross. Yeah, we're saying that now, but we only have the Lord to watch between us, and he's gonna watch whether you're gonna continue to act in a godly way to me, and I'm gonna continue to act in a godly way to you while we're.

And so it is really a statement of we can't be fully restored to one another at this time, but we have no more or no less than the living God between us. And we would say we have no more and no less than the cross of Christ between us. And so there has to be continued hope, continued longing for restoration.

But it is an acknowledgement that also. It's an accountability. That's the word I'm looking for, of that means that I have to treat you in a way that honors the Christ that is between us. That's right. And that is so hard. That's so powerful though. Mm-hmm. Wow. That's so good. Well, I think we truly need to land this plane.

Mm-hmm. By wrapping some things up. Um, you know, as we look at the whole series, I think our heart would be that. Our, our listeners would learn these principles and apply them to their own lives first. Well, and that we would less learn these principles and apply. Yeah. Well it does start with us, doesn't it?

Yeah. Um, yeah. And it's going to be a lifelong learning process and a lifelong of applying. And we've talked a lot about making space and time. Mm. To learn it yourself and apply it yourself much less begin to engage somebody else in the process. Mm-hmm. So we hope that, um, there will be a learning, a time and space to really contemplate these principles and then an application, uh, we won't really learn something if we don't begin to do it.

And if we don't do it, we probably. Haven't really learned it and it's gonna look clumsy at first. Any, I mean, making an apology like this is gonna sound clumsy. Um, speaking to someone about their sin is going to, you know, mm-hmm. Look a little bit, um, like a toddler trying to learn to walk. Mm-hmm. And so, but we have to be willing to enter into the clumsy, awkward parts of these relationships if we're gonna really learn how to, you.

Build these skills. Mm-hmm. And I think it's, you know, by doing this ourselves is the best way that we really can teach and train other people that are close to us. But it is a great opportunity to, um, begin to bring these principles into our homes. Mm-hmm. And expose our children and our husband and parents and whoever we have ongoing relationships.

Friends might be a, a great devotional for the family or a great, just sit down and have a discussion, a date night with your spouse to say, Hey, this is what I learned. Um, so. Yeah, I think talking about the material with others is a good way to cement it in your mind. And then living it out is the way that we kind of prove that we've really changed.

And so this is gonna take dependent on the Holy Spirit and God's word and our spiritual friends, our three superpowers. And we really hope that, um, throughout all these discussions on forgiveness and then the ongoing application of them in difficult daily and or difficult relationships you're gathering.

Wise friends and wrestling through these issues. Yeah. Well, I think just finally, I would just wanna say that it has been a, a real joy to do this series. It has actually been relearning and reapplying. Yes. And even as I've been thinking through, we sort of challenged everybody to have a situation they were walking through.

And as we've walked through this, it's. It's been such a great reminder to me of like, oh gosh, I need to go back to that basic principle, or I really need some wisdom to know how to communicate with this person, and how am I gonna get that wisdom? Am I gonna overlook this or confront? And um, and so for me, this has just been a real beautiful time with you.

Thank you. I've enjoyed it too.