Season 2 Episode 5

Hi, I'm Alex. And I'm Brenda. Welcome to conversational counseling or Counseling and discipleship. Meet even in the midst of confronting other people, we're gonna find ourselves confronted often, and we're gonna be confronted about how we confront. So we're going to have to stay in that posture of humility and teachability in reconciliation.

This is where we are like clearing away the rubble and beginning to repair the ruin. Of the relationship and of the hearts that are involved. Well, we just wanna welcome everybody to episode five, where we're gonna be talking about reconciliation and uh, this is season two of our podcast. It's bigger than forgiveness.

And so, Alex, I think maybe a good thing to do at this point would to be, be to give a high level overview so we can, uh, help our listeners understand why we are saying it's bigger than forgiveness. Yeah. Clearly it's not less than forgiveness, and we're gonna have to cheer first that we finally made it to woo the, the pretty part of talking about forgiveness.

So, uh, we do wanna review, and first we talked about, um, receive and remember. And those two things are our godward orientation, they're our vertical. And so when we receive, we're talking about that we can be at peace with other people. Um, we can't be at peace with other people if we're not. To peace with God and he pursues us and our sin, and so therefore we can pursue others.

And so we allow God to set the parameters and give us the supernatural power to live as spiritual friends with one another. And that's what it means to just live in a godward orientation before we can even really. Think about forgiveness and then, um, we have to be aware of our ongoing sins. So we have to remember that we're sinful creatures and we have an ongoing need for forgiveness.

And that keeps us in a posture of gratitude and humility toward the Lord. And, um, it reminds us and enables us to be more patient with other people. Yeah. And then the third, uh, in our third podcast we talked about release because sin actually creates a debt and it causes a lot of pain. And so one of the things that we want to do in releasing, and again, this is more of a godward orientation, that we're going to the Lord and we're acknowledging the reality of the pain, um, that's been inflicted upon us.

And that's just really important. We would call that lament, um, but also, We are so blessed to have a person who cares so deeply about us that we can release this pain too, and who we can call upon, um, to actually come and, um, you know, be a part of the solution or to, um, hold our hearts and keep us free from bitterness.

And bitterness is a real temptation. And we talked about that a good bit when we're walking through, uh, you know, messy relationships and trying to bring about a measure of reconciliation and ReSTOR. And then, um, we moved on to what we're calling wrestling. Our sound engineer helped us come up with a good R word.

Wrestling. Wrestling. That's right, that's right. Sorry. As we would say in the south. Wrestling, wrestling. And that's within r y'all. Uh, but that's where we are going to overlook or confront. And the reason we're calling that wrestling mm-hmm. Is because it takes a lot of wisdom. We're kind. Um, going through and, and in our own hearts and, and parsing out what is our responsibility, what has been hurtful, but not sinful?

Where do we really need to confront if we're going to confront? Um, and in the overlooking, we're basically just saying, we're gonna cover this matter in love. We're gonna choose not to dwell on it. We're gonna choose not to address it. And then in confronting, we want to go and we want to talk to the person.

And we talked about how confrontation doesn't have to be ugly. It doesn't have to be this huge, you know, event where um, you know, we're making war with somebody, we're actually coming to make peace with somebody. Mm-hmm. And we talked about some creative ways to do that because, you know, sin separates us from God and from other people.

And, um, our greatest goal when we go to confront someone is not even so much. That, you know, we are reconciled with them, but that they are reconciled with God. Mm-hmm. Um, and so that really is our motivation, springing from a heart of love and a heart of desire to see this person really be right with the Lord and at peace with God.

Mm-hmm. And then at peace with their neighbor. So today we're gonna talk about reconciliation and we're gonna think about, um, we're trying again to make this really practical. And the way that we're doing that is asking our. And other people to think about someone who as sinned against you, because we can talk about these things in the abstract, doesn't have quite the impact.

And so we're gonna think about it real practically and we're gonna recognize that forgiveness cancels the debt and we've released someone from um, revenge against them. But it does, that doesn't automatically bring about reconciliation and ReSTOR. Yeah. And I think a good way to, to think about reconciliation, and this is where we're getting very horizontal.

Like we are, we are moving toward a person, but in reconciliation, this is where we are, like clearing away the rubble. Mm-hmm. And beginning to repair the ruins of the relationship and of the hearts that are involved. And, um, it's also the end of a estrangement. You know, sin always separates and it creates alienation.

Reconciliation is God's process of repair. Um, where we've been separated people where there could be unity, where there can be wholeness. Again, I like that idea of clearing away the revel, repairing the ruins, because again, we're back to the element of time. This doesn't happen quickly. Yeah. If you are, if you got a mess and a lot of brokenness.

Even when you've released someone, even when you are committed to walking in reconciliation with someone, it's going to take some time to clear away the rubble of what was broken and to really fully be able to feel reengaged with someone. Yeah. And one of the things we talked about earlier on was just how often we wanna avoid conflict.

Mm-hmm. And, um, I love that, you know, Paul tells the Corinthians, um, that they have been given, that they've been reconciled to Jesus and been given the ministry of reconciliation. Mm-hmm. So this kind of clearing away the rubble and repairing the ruins, it's not a bad thing. Mm-hmm. We need to look at it differently.

Um, we tend to avoid it. We tend to think this is gonna be horrible. I don't wanna do it. We have fear, we have anxiety, we have shame, but I. We talked about invitation, that confrontation is an invitation to help the person see where they're off the mark with the Lord. They're not loving God, loving their neighbor the way God says, and to be restored to God and their neighbor.

And um, so I, I think if we can just really remember that we have this ministry of reconciliation. Mm-hmm. It is a ministry calling. It is a calling that we go and we bring people the comfort of the gospel and the call of the gospel. Mm-hmm. You know, in their sin that we are saying, Hey, you've done this, but there's grace.

You've done this and there's forgiveness. You've done this, and I want to be restored to you. Yeah. And I think that perspective where it's not all about me, there's just like a. Higher purpose here does help when we're working through a lot of difficult feelings. You know, it's not, I, it causes me to lift my gaze.

Yeah. And not that I'm not acknowledging the hurt, because of course we talked about we have to do that, but we recognize there's a higher purpose here than just me feeling better. And, um, the, we really are talking about that reconciliation is, um, bringing someone or helping someone move back into relationship with God and with me.

And so I can a little bit choose to wait for the feelings to follow even if they're not there. Yeah, I think that's a great, a great point. I think naturally. When we've been offended, we go inward. Mm-hmm. And it becomes all about me. Right. But I think this challenges us to really look upward and then outward doing our little upward outward dance.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And making it truly about loving God and loving our neighbor. But in doing that, to your point, we're in no way saying that we're not acknowledging, um, the hurt and that we're not going to bring that hurt to the Lord or to the person who has sinned against. Yeah, I think this is gonna be particularly hard when we're trying to still discern if repentance is there in the other person, and so we're gonna make sure that next time when we talk about that full restoration where trust has been restored, we're gonna spend some time next episode talking about how to discern that when there may be times when restoration is not possible.

So I know. It's always a big question on everyone's mind. Mm-hmm. And we're, we're definitely going there today though. Were gonna focus on maybe what we are saying when we are promising to forgive and reconcile with another. And then we're even also gonna touch a little bit on how we would, um, enter into reconciliation and forgiveness if we are the ones who've done harm.

So, hang on. The next episode, right? For the, for the difficult to discern relationships. But today we're gonna focus on what does it actually mean? What am I saying when I say that I forgive someone? Yeah. And I wanna say everything you just said is why we've called this. It's bigger than forgiveness, right?

Because I mean, we have unpacked so much throughout the course of this podcast and this season, and, um, I just think that. These principles are so important that they become a part of our thinking and our believing and actually our practice. So one of the, I, I love this practice of knowing that forgiveness is a promise made in a promise kept, mm-hmm.

And it's really an exchange. We might call this transactional forgiveness, where you and I. Sin between us. We are actually making a transaction where I'm asking you to forgive me. And when you say, yes, Brenda, I forgive you that you're making some promises to me. Mm-hmm. And these promises are based on the scripture.

They're, they're not original with us. Um, they've been around for a while. I'm not even sure where they originated. But one of the promises that we make, and I've memorized these. So, um, when I'm tempted to be bitter towards someone yeah. That I have told that I have for, I have forgiven you. Like, these are the promises that I play in my mind.

Like, what did I promise this person? And, um, and that holds me to a standard and that holds me accountable and it guards my heart. From really going down that road of nursing, that grudge and becoming bitter. But the first promise is I will, uh, I promise I will not dwell on your sin in my own mind, and again, this is kind of just the mental rehearsal where I'm going over and over and over again, and this is why bitterness has such great memory.

Mm-hmm. Because if you remember something over and over and over again, and you've got the picture in your mind, you're not gonna forget it. Um, and, and that just, you know, allows you and protects your heart from, in your mind, from thinking about somebody in a punitive or vindictive way. And, um, and so I, I, I also realize this is a point where if it comes to my mind and I'm tempted toward bitterness, I'm immediately gonna go back and pray.

We know that's, Satan is a roaring line. We know the flesh is weak. We know the world is coming after us. We have real enemies that seek to divide us and separate us from one another. And so, um, and some of the patterns we deal with in intimate relationships come up over and over again. Mm-hmm. And we've talked about the need for, you know, forbearance.

And so I think this whole idea of not dwelling on it, in my mind is also a way to just go to the Lord and pray for that person. Pray for my own heart, pray for, um, continued reconciliation and restoration in the relationship. Yeah. And then the next promise is gonna be that I promise not to use your sin against you.

And so this is not to say that the sin is not gonna ever be dis. Discussed again because just like you said, there are patterns sometimes in sin that necessitate that we acknowledge things from the past, but it's particularly saying, I'm not going to be vindictive again. It'll only be brought up in a loving manner and it's only going to be brought up in order to bring further healing and further restoration.

Mm-hmm. So we all know the, like you always, you never conversations mm-hmm. That we don't. So damaging that we are probably prone to do. And yet, um, when we are on the other side of that, we know how damaging is. I don't always do that. Mm-hmm. So we we're really promising that we're, we're gonna stay away from statements like that.

Mm-hmm. And we're going, but we are gonna maybe have to discuss patterns and, but it's gonna be done only to bring out further healing. Mm-hmm. So I'm not bringing it up to hurt you. I'm not bringing up to heap guilt and shame and judgment on you. So, um, I'm gonna avoid. Um, polarizing statements and gonna try to, um, promise that this matter is now a matter that can only bring healing and restoration, not further distance for the rest.

Mm-hmm. And I think about, you know, sometimes people are confused because, um, Paul said that love does not keep a record of wrongs. Mm-hmm. And so sometimes, um, I've even heard that verse used against somebody who still needed, wanted to have ongoing conversation for reconciliation and restoration, and has, has been shut down.

Right. And so what we're, you know, again, what we're saying is we're just not going to bring it up in ways of a dirty, dirty laundry list. And we know when. Some people have really great memory and they can remember that time and the time before, and the time before and the time before, and you know, they're mm-hmm very historical and typically being historical makes us hysterical.

So we should try to stay away from that. Um, and then the third promise is, I promise not to gossip about you or potentially slander you. You know, um, there is a place to talk to trustworthy people who can help us move forward in and, and toward restoration, but it is a great tempt. And this is true of my life to this very day.

You know, there are some things in my life. I think I've been a Christian so long, I thought I was over that. Mm-hmm. I thought I was past that. Um, but it's a real great temptation when we are in conflict with someone and even after reconciliation has happened to go, um, I had a friend tell me one time that gossip makes us feel alive.

Hmm. And it. True. There is something about it, you know, and the Bible tells us gossip is like a choice morsel. Mm-hmm. You know, so there is a delicacy in that. So a real temptation toward that. And we just wanna make sure that we are really, um, you know, seeking the best of other people in this process, whether we're in the middle of it or out of it.

We wanna get help, but we don't have to talk to trustworthy people who are part of the process. Not just people. Typically, you will also just look for people who will agree with you, right? Right. So a lot of times when we run to people, are we going to that person who's really going to say, Ha Brenda, like, you are wrong.

You are just as wrong. Or this is you're wrong in it. Or am I just looking for somebody to go Yeah, he was bad. She was bad. Yeah. You know, and jump on that bandwagon. And sometimes for me that's, that's almost meant seeking out wise people who I might perceive might disagree with me. And Yeah, and that's a hard thing to do because people you trust tend to be close to you, but it's making sure that you're talking to someone who you know is not afraid to say the hard thing to you in the midst of whatever you're sharing.

Because really what we're doing in all three of these promises we're actually. Seeking to seek the good of the other person. Mm-hmm. And so we have to be very careful even of who we br bring in. We all know that person who is our loyal friend who's never gonna be able to see. And that's usually our phone.

A friend. Yes. Right. I was like, I need a phone, a friend, I'm gonna find that I'm gonna call that person who I know is gonna take up my offense. Yes. You know? Um, and I think, you know, it's also. Instructive to, if we're on the other side of somebody calling us, like let's be trustworthy, point people back to Jesus.

If somebody's calling us to gossip or slander or somebody's calling us, they really need help. Let's be trustworthy. Not pass that on to other people and be honest to the person who's calling us. So that's good. All right. Well, Alex, we've been talking about confronting someone who's sinn against us, but you know, now I think we should shift our focus a little bit to how should we respond when we've been sinned against, um, or when we sin against someone else and then we are confronted.

Yeah. Kind flim. Again, this apart. I know, I, I know. It's like, ah, what's worse? Having to confront somebody or be confronted. They both can just seem horrible if we don't see this as ministry of reconciliation. That's the truth. If we don't see this as gospel work and grace, like this is grace work, this is God pouring out his grace.

If you can acknowledge your sin to confess it and you have a friend, a faithful friend, willing to confront you, like that is so much gospel grace that we need to rest in that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, I'm glad we're talking about this here because I think we need to remember that relationships are complex and very rarely are we in a relationship where it's so clean that someone just hurt me, and then I respond perfectly and I can, and then I can go with this clean slate and confront them.

Mm-hmm. And, and we can have this reconcili, it's just doesn't, it doesn't work that way in my life. No. We sin and then, um, we sin in the confrontation part. So then now we have to go back and talk about the original sin and then all the sin that's surrounded trying to make things right. Right. Well, yes, that's the way it usually is for me.

It starts getting really tangled. And so even in the midst of confronting other people, we're gonna find ourselves confronted often and, or like you said, we're gonna be confronted about how we confront, so we're going to. Stay in that posture of humility and teachability. Mm-hmm. Whether we are confronting or being confronted, but particularly when the tables get turned and we realize, uhoh, I did something too, I'm gonna have to be open to how the other person views me and what they saw.

Yeah. I heard somebody one time say that we should have such a view that when somebody comes to us, we're like, that's it. Mm-hmm. Because if you really knew my heart, am I thinking my actions, you would come with so much more. Right. You know, just to have that posturing of humility. Well, let's talk about some ways we can demonstrate humility and teachability and, and one way is that, you know, if we don't minimize blame shift or deny wrongdoing.

You know, a lot of times we can, we can go and confront or be confronted and there's always the, well, if you had done this, but only, you know, I wouldn't have done that. Maybe when, I mean all of these words that try to justify our behavior and our attitudes and our actions and our words, and so, um, we have to lay that down.

That's that inner defenses a. Right. That wants to rear its ugly head. And it is. He is strong. I mean, and, and we've been doing it since the garden. Ed Welch says that when we are confronted with our sin, we hide and we point, and it's exactly what, yep. Adam and Eve did. We hide by minimizing or denying, and we point when we are blaming other people and shifting the responsibility to someone else.

Mm. It has been going on a long time. Yes. So another, uh, way I think to demonstrate humility is, you know, a lot of times when we are going to someone or we are being confronted by somebody, they, a lot of times they've actually sinned too. Right. And it's really easy to become focused on their sin. Mm-hmm.

And, um, I think about a pie, you know, if. Sin against me and their sin is 80%, but my sin is 20%. God wants me to take responsibility, a hundred percent responsibility for my 20%. And um, and that's can be really hard because it feels like the scales are really uneven. But if we really understand that sin is not, Defined primarily by what I do against you, but God is defining that is how I am sin against him.

And then, you know, sin against you, then it becomes incredibly important to confess that sin because I'm going to the Lord with my sin first. And then I'm coming to you to ask forgiveness as well. And the other thing I've just seen is, you know, when we do that, even if we're, uh, don't have the greater, uh, percentage, if you will, of responsibility of the sin and the conflict.

It has such a humbling effect. Very often it will have a humbling effect on the other person to lay down their arms. And then they are now willing to also say, wow, here's what I did. Will you also please forgive me? Yeah. And I think when we're willing to take a hundred percent responsibility, we're going to sincerely ask for forgiveness.

Mm-hmm. And so this one, This is one of those things that is kind of a hot button issue with me. Mm-hmm. Because I really grip my teeth when somebody gives me the, I'm sorry, I upset you. Mm. Apology. I get. Really? Why is that, Alex? I mean, that seems like such a nice thing to say. I'm so. Sorry, I upset you. Well, the way it feels to me is you've just turned it around and you've just made it my problem.

Right? Like, your actions are attitude, my problem. And it feels like the, it feels like just another way to blame. Yeah. And, but it's dressed up really pretty and that's what makes it particularly difficult. Yeah. So let's don't use that verbiage. Yes. We're gonna give you some better verbiage. Um, I. Also being willing to talk honestly about the shame involved and the, the shame of the sin, and then the fear of the confrontation, right?

Um, I think both of those, if we can get those out on the table early, like I'm feeling a lot of shame. I'm really afraid to come co, you know, talk to you, confess my sin to you. Or if somebody comes to you like, I want to respond well in this, but I'm feeling a lot of shame right now and I'm really fearful of this confrontation.

Like, if we can just name that and put that out there. Um, I think it just gives a greater understanding. And I know for me, if somebody comes to me and says, I'm feeling so much shame and I'm really fearful of this confrontation, it immediately makes me wanna get on their side. Mm-hmm. Like, I wanna put my arm around them, you know, not my boxing gloves on.

I wanna be like, oh my goodness. Come, let's talk. How do, why do you feel shame? And you don't need to fear talking to me like, there's gonna be forgiveness here. Mm-hmm. Like, let's just talk it. Yeah, I think this is a really big one for me again, because I believe if, if I've done wrong to you and you have to come tell me about it, I really, in my heart believe the relationship is over.

If I'm wrong, you can't love me. Mm-hmm. And so it's been really important for me to name shame. It doesn't completely disarm shame, but it does really make a dent in it. Mm-hmm. And it enables me to be able. Almost name what's going on and take a deep breath to be able to receive what the person's saying without defensiveness, because I'm recognizing what I'm battling in my own heart, and I can quiet that a little bit and really seek to listen.

And so this one's been really important to me and it's hard. It's hard to do when I think that really takes us all the way back to. Right. Because the only way you can do that is to really, really be rooted and anchored in the fact that Jesus took your guilt and your shame, and you have all the love you will ever need.

You have all the forgiveness, all the acceptance, because sometimes people will come and they will continue to punish you, and they won't do this well, and they won't do this right. And it might even end a friendship like mm-hmm. You know, so it can be, some of that fear is like, yeah, between man and man, it may really go south.

Mm-hmm. But then to be so rooted and anchored. And one more thing about it, because I have spent a lot of time over the last several years studying shame. One other thing it does is in the moment that someone comes to tell me that I've done wrong, I immediately, this is gonna sound maybe weird, but I leave myself and I stand to accuse myself.

Mm-hmm. And being able to say how I'm feeling lets me be able to stay with myself, so to speak. Mm-hmm. And so, Yes, I'm tempted to defensiveness, but for me, what I'm even more tempted to is, um, I'm going to cross-examine myself. Mm-hmm. Like I'm, I'm tempted to self condemnation in that moment. Mm-hmm. So, naming shame helps me to say, okay, this is where I am.

I don't have to go over here and become my own prosecuting attorney. So we're tempted to be the defense attorney, but we're also tempted to be the prosecuting attorney. Yeah. That's a great, that's a great point. Yeah. All right. Well, another way we can show humility and teachability is to ask them, um, not just what we did, but what was the impact.

Yeah. I, I love this one too, because so often we, um, when, when we've been, when I've been confronted, now I've named shame, but now I just wanna get to the place where we can be reconciled as fast as possible. Mm-hmm. So, I wanna say, please forgive. I don't wanna, I, I, I don't like, I'm sorry you feel that way.

I, I wanna say please repeat, but I wanna get there really quickly. Mm-hmm. And sometimes in getting there quickly, it leaves the other person who's been harmed feeling. Hollow or empty or even left out. Mm-hmm. Because it's almost like I've checked the box. Mm-hmm. And just done what I knew I had to do. I think this question helps slow that down a little bit.

Mm-hmm. And helps to be able to say, okay, I understand that I said that thing, but can you tell me how that made you feel? Like, how did that impact you? Mm-hmm. What has been the ongoing narrative in your head after that happened? And so it enables me to go a little bit deeper and to really make a.

Confession and asking of forgiveness instead of kind of a checking the box. Yeah. And I think it's so good for the person making the confession to hear the impact because it is actually a deterrent, right? To continue to sin against the person. If you never hear that impact, it's like, okay, I sin you forgave me, whoop, we can just move on.

But when you begin to. Or I begin to tell you like, this is how this really hurt me. Now your heart is grieved over your sin. Mm-hmm. So often we don't grieve over our sin. Mm-hmm. And if we're not grieving over our sin, we're probably not gonna be mortifying or putting our sin to death. Like it's just not that big of a deal.

Um, so I think that really helps that as well. You know, another reason I like that is because when you, when you said this is a transaction, we can be tempted to think that that means it's not relational. Mm-hmm. And when we get to this part of talking about impact, we're really recognizing that it's not transactional in the sense that it's devoid of emotion, it's devoid.

Um, just personhood, right? Mm-hmm. Like there's something, you could have said that thing to someone else, and it could have been sinful and it, it impacted them in a completely different way. Mm-hmm. But when I'm telling you how it impacted me, yeah. We are able to move together in reconciliation because we're actually moving towards another person.

Yeah. We're not just exchanging something. Yeah. No, I think that's a really good and helpful point. I think you can really be helpful as well to be prepared to tell the person how you are going to change or be different, what your plan is for the future, and let them know you're gonna work on it. Like that's real repentance if you know you're confronted or if you sit against someone and you don't have any plan to change, and particularly this is a habitual, ongoing thing.

Mm-hmm. Uh, that's just not true repentance, and that is going to really inhibit restoration. And what we're gonna talk about in our next episode, and again, so this may not be one conversation, right, because I, you know, if you're me again and you're shutting down, like I only maybe be able to get to the place of saying, please forgive me.

Mm-hmm. How has this impacted you? And it might take me a while to process through what really happened, to be able to have a follow up conversation to say, okay, what is helpful in the future? What, what can I do? And the next question is, you know, asking, is there any other way that I've wronged you? I might not be able to take that much information in, in one sitting.

Mm-hmm. And I've made this mistake many times in my marriage because I, as the one confronting, come ready, I've got all my. Yeah. But you know, Mason may not be ready to receive all of that. Mm-hmm. And it's not really for the good of the relationship to unload all that. And so we have to be able to be honest with one another of like, okay, I understand.

At this point, can you gimme a pause here and can we pick up again tomorrow morning? Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's so good. So it's ongoing, um, relationally ongoing. Well, another way we think we can be humble and teachable is to make our confessions specific and not general and to use biblical categories. Um, you know, it's easy just to go into somebody and say, Hey, man, I was a jerk.

Yeah. You know, I'm sorry I hurt you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Um, but you know, It would be better to say I sin by being selfish when I demanded you do it my way. And I was unloving and impatient because I wanted to be in control. Mm-hmm. And you know, to get from, I was a jerk to that other language is going to take time in my own heart.

And we talk so much about that in the first three episodes of all the work that we need to do before we even come to somebody. Cuz that is such a hollow. Hollow confession. Yeah. Yeah. You know, really, um, so specific, not general, and then using these biblical categories. And, and not only that, what you did in what you admitted was you, you talked about, you alluded to behavior.

I was selfish, I demanded behavior, and I was unloving and impatient. Now we're talking about attitudinal. Mm-hmm. We're talking about heart level. That you took your confession to another level by saying, it's not just my outward behavior that was sinful. I'm even acknowledging that my heart posture towards you was sinful.

Exactly. Very good. Okay. And so let's talk about, um, the language of forgiveness. The language of, of what these promises say. Cuz we're not gonna say, I'm sorry, I upset you. Mm-hmm. We're not gonna say, I'm sorry you feel that way. Mm-hmm. But we're going to. Specifically say, please forgive me. I know when my children were little.

What do they wanna say? They want, you know, apologize to your sister. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You know, and run out of the room. We are gonna try to lean into the language of, please forgive me. Um, that's what we're asking for and so we're going to use it. Please forgive me for, and we're gonna name what we've.

Done. And we're gonna try, like you said, to use biblical terms around it. I was selfish. Please forgive me for being selfish. Please forgive me for being harsh. And then, um, if we can, like you, you did a minute ago, even acknowledge the heart. I was impatient when I did that. I was unloving towards you. And then we're gonna talk about, I realize it affected you by this, or I've realized this is what happened when I did it.

And that's our acknowledgement. Impact of our actions. And then we're gonna say I should have, and we're going to put some language to what we would like to do in the future. So we're going to give language to what our plan, so to speak, of repentance. Is, and what we're doing there is we're acknowledging that we understand that we want the relationship to move forward.

And re reconciliation means it's gonna have to look different in the future. And I think we can see from these three elements, if we have, we can make this good, hearty, rich apology if we've saw it, to really understand when someone's come to confront. These things, what did I do? How did you know? How did that affect you?

And what would you have wished that I had done? Those are really the three elements of the apology. What did I do? How did it affect you, and what do I wanna do in the future? Mm-hmm. So it feels, I hope it feels a lot, again, less transactional and more relational. Mm-hmm. And more like what reconciliation should be.

Yeah. And I think something so beautiful happens when we do it this way, and I've seen it a lot in my close personal relationships, and that is I may go from being pretty upset with the person to wanting to defend them, right? Mm-hmm. Right? All of a sudden, um, when you come to me with this humility and this teachability, rather than going, you're darn right, you did all that and you did more, I.

Oh, it, it's okay. Really? It's wasn't that bad. It wasn't that bad. I mean, it could just have been irate 10 minutes ago, but it's amazing just how humility begets humility. And all of a sudden when you come with such a ho, you know, humble, teachable posture, my heart melts and then I want to be for you and not against you.

Mm-hmm. And sometimes I even have to. Self, like acknowledge, like, okay, yes, I see you send, I will forgive you because mm-hmm. At that point I almost just wanna cover it. Mm-hmm. And go, really, it's okay. We don't, you know, we can just don't, don't even go there. Like, this just makes me feel so sad for you. You know, I feel so bad that you're so humbled and that you're so, you know, broken over this.

But that's just a beautiful place to be. And I will say in counseling with couples, this is one of the hardest transitions for me to. People to see. They just wanna go back to, I'm sorry. I apologize. Mm-hmm. And I just hope that through a teaching like this, we can see the richness mm-hmm. Of what the whole picture would look like and how, like you said, it's, it's not just about I pro, you know, I'm making a promise, you received the promise, but it's a whole relational dynamic where I am demonstrating something about my relationship with the Lord and my desire for relationship with you, um, as a result.

And it's just, it's beautiful. It is gospel. Yeah, it is gospel. And we go back to those, that language you used, clearing away the rubble. If we get to this level of apology, we have cleared all the rubble. That's right. You know, it's like there's nothing left to say and we really can start to rebuild. Yeah.

Well, I know one thing we just talked about is we do have to be careful not to judge repentance by the quality of the confession, because not everybody you talk to will know this. You know this now. Right. But you know, not everybody else is gonna know it. Yeah. I call this weaponizing good teaching, you know?

Mm-hmm. And we do this, and you mentioned marriage counseling. When I talk to couples and I. And I do try to teach what a good apology sounds like, and then it becomes weaponized. Well see, you're not really sorry because you didn't say that you were impatient with me and say, and Alex said, oh yeah, I love that one the most.

Alex said It's like, no, no, no, no. Jesus said, yeah, please don't use me as a weapon in your relationship. Yeah, so we are, we love to teach us. We think it does really. To, to completely clear away, rebel and leave place for rebuilding. But we wanna recognize that we're all works in progress. Mm-hmm. And that someone can be honestly repentant and not use the exact language that Alex and Brenda just said mm-hmm.

On that podcast. Like they really can. So we wanna give grace even here in the way that, um, we receive someone's apology. Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, in our, particularly our more intimate family and friend relationships, we need to. Mm-hmm. We need to model it. Mm-hmm. Let it become our practice, and then really through modeling we're teaching.

Yeah. And then maybe when we have the opportunity, maybe you have younger children, you can begin to teach and train them in this, maybe you can have a, a one-off conversation with your husband, like, Hey, I listened to this, or, why don't you listen to this podcast? I think this would be a great way to, you know, for us to begin to teach our family to relate to one another.

And so we just wanna be patient with people and we're not trying to set up a barrier. Um, in giving language, we just want to give the language cuz we think it's beautiful and useful and helpful and restorative. So I loved your point about y you're ready to go defend the other person. Mm-hmm. And it can be hard to know how to respond to an apology like this.

And I love that Brene Brown teaches that, um, they teach in their family that when someone apologizes that you thank them. And I think that's really beautiful. Mm-hmm. Um, and the, the funny thing is, if you've ever had someone do it and you apologize for 'em, and they say, thank you for apologizing, and you're expecting them no, it was okay.

You're, and they go, thank you. You're like, Wait, what You're agreeing thato yet, but there is something really sweet, I think, with knowing how to acknowledge when someone has given you something really precious. Mm-hmm. And that, that maybe it keeps us from doing that. Oh, it's okay. I do. Oh yeah. Yeah. I think where I've landed is just, of course I forgive you.

I love you. You know, just, I think maybe that's a great thing to practice. Like one's, when you're on the other end of this, what are you going to say? Mm-hmm. Like be prepared to have an answer that will let the person know they've been restored. Mm-hmm. You know, which I think is really good. Well, Alex, we would say, and Jesus would say that Christian relationships should be marked by asking for and granting forgiveness on a regular and normal part of our relating.

Mm. So often it's just not, you know, Proverbs 28 13 says, whoever conceals their sins does not prosper, but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy. Yeah. And I know I need a lot of mercy in my life, and so I want to be quick to confess. I want to be, um, wise. And discerning in how I'm approaching other people about their sin.

But it would be interesting to do a poll of Christians, professing Christians to see how many of them would say in my family, we, on a daily basis, people are asking or granting forgiveness because I can almost guarantee you if you've got several people living under the same roof on a daily, You've got sin, right?

Yeah. And sometimes parents can think that that's something they should not do with their children. And I know you and I both say all the time when we are, when we're talking specifically to parenting, that actually apologizing in your home to your spouse is beautiful, but apologizing to your children and asking them to forgive you is really putting.

Full on display for them. Mm-hmm. And they will learn more from that than any amount of teaching that you do. Yeah. So we really do encourage parents even to ask forgiveness from their children. But a lot of what we talked about so far, Brenda has really been about Christian on Christian. Mm-hmm. Um, and so there are times when we are in relationship with unbelievers and I think what we wanna encourage people is you still ask forgiveness.

There's a little bit of a, um, misapplication I think of. Uh, leaving a, leaving a life worthy of your calling and thinking that in front of unbelievers we have to act like we don't get it wrong. Mm-hmm. And so I think that we really need to recognize there are gonna be many times that we have to ask forgiveness of an believer.

And again, we wanna do that. We want to make sure that that, and, and recognize that it's the most powerful way for us to put the gospel on display in front of them without sharing the. Mm-hmm. And that, but that might mean that we appeal to them on the basis of the impact of, of the way that we've hurt them or their conscious or vice versa.

Mm-hmm. That we may not be able to appeal to scripture to say, here's how you've wronged me. But you can say, here's how this has impacted me, and this may not be the person that you wanna be, so I wanted to ask you to acknowledge it. Yeah. And I don't want there to be anything in between us and our relationship.

Mm-hmm. And this is a wedge. This is separating us. So there's a lot of conversation and verbiage I think we can have with non-Christians that can be very loving and encouraging and yet truthful mm-hmm. As well. Mm-hmm. Um, and then I, you know, I just think whether really you're dealing with a Christian or a non-Christian, um, if a person won't acknowledge their sin, you, you just.

You're kind of at an impasse. Mm-hmm. So what do you do? You've been sinned against, you've gone to the person, they're not acknowledging it. And you know, our response is our responsibility. Mm-hmm. And so I think at this point we just have to recognize, you know, I've done everything I can. I have fulfilled my responsibility to the Lord.

I'm gonna pray for the person. I'm gonna entrust this person to God, I'm gonna trust God with, you know, whatever happens. And I'm just reminded of the verse in Romans 1218 that says, as far as it depends on. As far as it depends on, you live at peace with all men. And so there will just be times where we will be in relationships that we have done all we can to bring about peace.

Mm-hmm. And to bring about reconciliation. Um, but it just won't be possible. Yeah. And then if we are in relationship with an unbeliev or with a believer who is not willing to acknowledge, then it may be time to look at the principles of Matthew 18 and to bring another person along with you and to involve other wise counsel in that process.

Yeah, and which we'll get into a lot more. In our next episode when we're gonna be talking about restoration mm-hmm. And moving toward wholeness and peace.