Season 2 Episode 2

Hi, I'm Alex. And I'm Brenda. Welcome to Conversational Counseling where counseling and discipleship meet. You know, we have to look at forgiveness as both an event and a process. Jesus is challenging us to be, to be more committed to reconciliation and forgiveness. Than we are to revenge people who continue to sin against us, or we continue to remind ourselves of the ways we've been sinned against.

And so now it has to be more than just this one time I'm gonna choose not to pay somebody back for the wrong they've done well. Hey Alex. Hey Brenda. We're back to episode two of season two. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we're in Montgomery and we're excited to be in your home recording with Zach and Malia. And, um, we.

Working through the issue of, or the topic of forgiveness. And, uh, we dubbed, we've titled this episode or this series, it's bigger than forgiveness. Mm-hmm. And we've been saying that the, its is the relational dynamics and components that come along with. Um, the act, the act of forgiveness. And so maybe we could just start off by recapping a little bit of, um, our first episode where we talked about forgiveness begins with receiving God's forgiveness.

Yeah. So I think we'll have to start with, if you have been in my counseling office, or if you've seen me teach, you're gonna, I'm glad we have video today. You're gonna see me. Do they, they call it, Smooth, which is mm-hmm. Up arms, straight in the air and then arm out. Mm-hmm. And it's vertical and horizontal.

And that's really what we talked about and receive, uh, last episode because we really talked about that we have to orient ourselves vertically first and we have to really know that we've received the grace and mercy of God and that we stand forgiven in Christ. And only then can we bend it down and move to the vertical dance move where, I mean, the horizontal dance move where we're, um, extending forgiveness to other people.

That's right, and God really wants us to be a conduit of his mercy and grace, and we can't be that unless we have received his mercy and grace first. But today we really want to move on to talk about. Remember as it relates to forgiveness, and now I am sporting my forgiveness t-shirt. Mm-hmm. Because one of the best ways to remember something, Alex, is to buy a t-shirt.

Yes. Because it's my favorite. I, I will buy a t-shirt for just about anything or anywhere I go and maybe part of that's, my memory's not so good. I don't know. But in this case, I do love wearing my forgiven, um, t-shirt and wore it in honor of our podcasting this week because, Um, we want to remember and, um, I think, you know, we have to look at forgiveness as both an event and a process.

Yes. Um, it's certainly an event that the Lord forgives us, um, but also we continue to incur debt with the Lord. Mm-hmm. So he has continually forgiving us. Right. Our sins have been forgiven, past, present, and future. And we're gonna see that this same dynamic is at work in relationships as well. Mm-hmm. That forgive.

And we've de and we've defined forgiveness as I will not pay you back for the wrong you have done right. We've described forgiveness in a biblical context, that it means a pardon. Mm-hmm. So it's just that initial like, I'm not going to pay you back. And oftentimes what we find is that, um, People who continue to sin against us, or we continue to remind ourselves of the ways we've been sinned against.

And so now it has to be more than just this one time I'm gonna choose not to pay somebody back for the wrong they've done. But I have to continually remind myself, right, that I will not avenge right what has been done to me or what is being done to. So we're gonna remember something different than it's in our nature to remember.

And so that. Who I like to teach the word remember and take it apart and say it's remembering ourselves. And I always picture my Barbie dolls when I was little that um, I don't know how it happened, but from the time I played with them the last time I'd come back and their arms and legs would be off. Do you remember that?

Because it's the only way you could get the clothes on the Barbie doll was to take the arms and legs off. I, I, she looked at me like I'm crazy. Wow. This might be a whole different podcast, Alex. So for those of you who played with Barbie Dolls, you know, I did play with Barbies, but I didn't have this problem, but go ahead.

I didn't have the fine motor skills to put my Barbie dolls clothes on, so I would take her arms and legs off to get her glove on. Okay. They're a little snug on Barbie, and so I like to teach. Remember us remembering that we are putting. Back together. Like I had to put my Barbies back together. It's a, it is a good point, man.

It's a great, it's, that story is great for illustrative purposes here, but I wouldn't share it a whole lot anywhere else, Alex. So I remember myself with truth and that's what we're going to. Awesome. Yeah, I remember myself, I put myself back together with truth and the truth that we're talking about is that we've received pardon in Jesus so we can.

Extend that to others. Yeah. Because the reality is, is we're more tempted to remember how we have been harmed and not how we have sinned against God Yes. Ourselves. Mm-hmm. And therein lies the rub. Mm-hmm. Right. Kind of the, we, we can see that speck in our brother's eye, uh, so easily, and yet we've got the log in our own eye and we can tend to forget that.

Yes. Along the. Okay. That reminds me of the question that Peter asks Jesus, oh Lord, how many times do I really have to forgive these people who've hurt me? Yeah, that's such a, a great point. And I wanna stop here for a minute. There's a, a, um, a. Somebody that I follow on Bema, uh, podcast Marty Solomon, and I learned this from him and I just thought this was so great to illustrate, um, the idea of pardon and then the rest of the parable where Jesus goes, I think really illustrates this idea of remembering.

Mm-hmm. Um, our sin and our debt as we forgive others. But, um, yeah, Peter comes and he asks, Jesus, Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me up to seven times? And first of all, I just wanna stop right there because, um, he, I just wonder about his brother, Andrew, how he might be feeling right now, or his real brothers and sisters.

Mm-hmm. But really where we see this idea of. Remembering and having to have forbearance or patience or endurance when we're sinned against, are going to primarily be in those intimate relationships. Yes. With our husband, with our children, with our mother, with our father, um, with our best friends. And then, um, up to seven times and one thing I learned was.

That, uh, the rabbis at that point were arguing this point, and, and they were saying, well, four times. Four times would be great. So Peter's actually upping the Annie mm-hmm. And saying, well, seven's a perfect number. It must be seven, not four. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna reward. He thinks he's really doing that.

I mean, he's thinking, he's really, really being forgiven here. And then Jesus answers, I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times. And so one of the things I've learned is that rabbis, when they were speaking to a Jewish audience, they would often say a phrase or something that would make the hearer hearken.

To an Old Testament teaching cuz these are Old Testament saints. Like they know the script, they know the word, they know what their Bible says. And so in this particular, um, illustration, Jesus is going back to a story in Genesis and this is about one of Kane's sons named Lamek. Now we know Kain was a bad dude.

Mm-hmm. And then he has a bunch of other bad dude kids. Right. And, uh, I just wanna read this and then explain a little bit about, uh, the parallel that's being made here. Genesis four, starting in verse 19, says, Le married two women, one name, aah, and the other Z, which I just rhyme those. I have no idea if that's really how they're pronounced.

I think they did rhyme 'em. They could remember 'em know. So I'm probably gonna botch the rest of the names in this. How do you keep your wives straight? Just Mary. People with rhyming names. There go. All right. A dog gave birth to Jabal. See, that sounds kind of like a rhyming name too. Yeah, he was the father of those who live in tents and raised livestock.

His brother's name was Jab. He was the father of all who played the harp and flute Z also had a son. Okay, let's just get through these names. So here's what Lamek says to his two wives, aaw and Z. Listen to me, wives of lamek, hear my words. I have killed a man for wounding me, a young man for injuring me.

If Kane is a venge seven times, then lamek 77 times. Wait a minute, first of all, girls, do not marry this man. I tell my girls all the time, do not marry an angry man. This is an angry man. This is one angry dude. Exactly. And what Jesus is doing when he is talking to Peter and his disciples is he's looking back and contrasting the vengeance that Lemek wants to take on his opponents are those who are sending against him compared to how Jesus wants his followers to release people from vengeance and revenge.

Okay. Say it one more time because I really think this is good and it's totally new for me. Okay. He's saying that his followers should, Eager to forgive as lamek was to take revenge. And so that is 77 times. Yeah. Let's see what it said here. Mm-hmm. Because I always thought it was 70 times seven. Well, do you have to be so technical, Alex?

I'm not sure about all of that, but there is something to that. But the, the numbers, the numerology and all that. But the basic point of the story is just that, you know, not only does Lemek say he's going to take revenge Mm, but he's going to take like exact revenge. So f. Far above and beyond even like, just like not justice.

Even like we would say justice is good, but revenge is horrible. Right? And so the point I think, again, that Jesus is just making, so, you know, this is what happens when I'm continually sinned against by someone. Um, I wanna get even. Right. And I, I want to prove my point, and I want them to know they're wrong and I, um, wanna defend myself.

And I, and, and honestly, and this is so hard to say, because I've been a Christian A. Long time and I should know better, but sometimes I want them to feel pain, right? Mm-hmm. And sometimes I want them to feel more pain than I felt. Look into the camera when you say that. Yeah. So, um, you know, I even want to exact more revenge and.

Again, if we look at this idea of forgiveness as being pardoned, Jesus is just saying, look, don't take revenge. Mm-hmm. Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. If there needs to be, if there needs to be justice here, I will repay. If there needs to be judgment here, I will repay. That's not the posturing that we need to take in this idea of forgiveness.

Again, we're gonna get down to what does it look like when somebody sins against you in confrontation and all of the things that come with this idea of the vertical, like you said, uh, relationship. But when we're just talking, Um, I'm sorry, horizontal, but when we're talking vertically, we just wanna posture our hearts and continually remember like, God's got this.

Mm-hmm. And I need to remember my own sin. And I need to remember that God is a God of justice and grace and he knows when justice needs to be metered at. And he knows when grace and mercy need to be extended. And so that's, that's just not a, a place that I need to worry about or operate in. So we're not gonna get caught up in numbers.

We're not keeping track here. This is really more of a concept where Jesus is challenging us to be. To be more committed to reconciliation and forgiveness than we are to revenge. Exactly. God, I got it. Yeah, you got it. Um, yeah. And then he goes on to tell this great story about the unmerciful, the parable of the un merciful servant to kind of drive this point home.

Right? And so the un merciful servant is one who is a father and a husband, and he. The king what would be really the equivalent of millions of dollars. A debt that he cannot repay. Exactly. And so he goes to the king and he begs the king for mercy because he knows that it's gonna be impossible for him to repay the debt.

And then there is this twist and the, and the king decides he's going to forgive the servant and he's gonna forgive him the debt. And so the servant goes away and he is. And we think, wow, what's gonna, you know, what's gonna happen next? I mean, he's gonna really bless somebody. Mm-hmm. He's gonna have so much gratitude in his heart.

Mm-hmm. And just be so thankful because that's what I would do. Yeah. Pay it forward. You know, the whole, like when people are just paying forward Yeah. Gonna pay it forward. But another plot twist, the, the servant goes. To, and, and another servant owes this man money, and he owes just a fraction of what, uh, the man owned the king.

What? The servant owned the king. And, and so the servant turns to the man who owes him this fraction of money, and he demands the payment from him. He completely forgets what has been given to him and the pardon, and he turns, and he execs this revenge. Really? Mm-hmm. Someone who owes him a fraction of what he's been given.

And so it really does beg the question like, are we the UNM merciful servant? Are we reacting to others in such a way that we want mercy to be given to us, yet we don't wanna dispense it to others? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think this is a great passage for us to come back to say, this is our story. Mm-hmm. This is our story.

This is really. And our flesh, our heartlands right, is I just don't remember how much I've been forgiven. And in fact, I'm really not that bad and you're actually really bad and you really hurt me and you really need to pay. Mm-hmm. And, um, I think constantly, and this is why, you know, we just, we have to continually, we talk about preaching the gospel to ourselves, and this is what we mean.

Like constantly reminding ourselves of what has God done for me in Christ, and that the debt we have as accruing that God is continually, Pouring out his just incredible love, mercy, forgiveness, grace on us. And so only kind of when we're being filled with that regularly and remembering can we really be that conduit to be able to walk with sinners as a sinner and not.

Exact revenge, demand, justice, or even worse exact, the kind of revenge that is like over, you know, the top. Yeah. So practically you're really pu pushing us towards gratitude just to living out a gratitude of what God has done for us. And I think the other thing we have to push ourselves to is to think about this story and the fact that here we have a king and a servant, and the king is forgiven.

The servant, the king owes no debt, owes no responsibility as the king is so, Uh, far above the servant. Mm-hmm. And yet he has chosen to condescend in a way to forgive the servant. Yes. And so we have to really remember that we stand in that place that we serve a God who is completely holy. Mm-hmm. In all a perfect, in all his ways.

Mm-hmm. And so when we stand against him, it is a great offense. That's, we are so far below him and we are offending a holy God. And it is because of the greatness, uh, the perfection of who God is, that actually reflects the, the greatness of our offense against him. Yeah, I think that's a great point because it's not necessarily the greatness of our sin.

You know, we, we like to be sin kind of monitors. Yes. Like maybe that's a one level version or a 10 level sin. Instead of saying, it's really not about whether it's a one or a 10 on my scale, it's the holiness of God that's been offended. Mm-hmm. And I think this really another practical application of this is that we are making regular confession.

Before the Lord and then two other people. Mm-hmm. As we sin against them, because I think along with gratitude comes a posturing of. Yes. And we need great humility, um, to be able to walk in this kind of remembering, um, that we're talking about. Like we have to continually go back and it's kind of like if we're humble, we're gonna continue daily to ask forgiveness for our sins, be quick to go to other people when we sin against them.

But then that produces humility. Mm-hmm. You know, which is gonna be really, well, I'm gonna make a confession here because, um, what I find myself doing is. What's not really humble, and that is I tend to, in place of confessing my sin, I tend to want to be right in other people's eyes. So I beat them to the punch.

Mm-hmm. And it's not the same as confession, do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So I wanna tell you what is wrong about me, or bad about me, or what I might have done. But my heart's not really postured in humility. It's actually postured in defensiveness. Mm-hmm. And so I see it so often. Subtle. It's really subtle and it looks really good to other people.

Like it looks humble, I'm not gonna lie, but I know that really, actually what I'm doing is I'm just trying to make sure, like we talked about last podcast, I don't want, I don't wanna wrong you. Mm-hmm. So I'm going to beat you to the punch and kind of tell you what I think I did wrong, or what I don't want you to think I did wrong is the case movie and it really doesn't come from a place of humil.

All that humility really comes when I fully own something that I have done. Not just trying to beat you to the punch in it, really own who I am before the Lord, and then and posture to continue to learn from you. Mm-hmm. And not be defensive and try to cut you off in, in how you see me, or paint a different picture for you and how you see me.

And so I just really, I, I really have been convicted by this, remember idea that what. What I tend to do is I try to remember more how someone might see me instead of remembering how God actually sees me and and, and what he's done for me. That's a great confession, Alex. I'm glad this could be a counseling session I know for you today, free counseling.

Oh, well, and I just wanna say that we're not going to remember if we don't spend time in God's word. Mm-hmm. And we're not independent prayer. And really sensitive to the Holy Spirit's work in our life. And so we have to slow down the pace of life. I think one of the things we often see in counseling is that people want those quick fixes in counseling, and part of this whole idea of remembering is about our relationship with the Lord and.

Every day when we're in the word, the Holy Spirit is using God's word to highlight for us, God's love for us, his forgiveness, his grace, his mercy, and our sinfulness. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, I just wanna put a plug in there to say that, you know, we talk about our three superpowers. Mm-hmm. And if we're gonna remember, we gotta have.

Time in God's word regularly. Mm-hmm. We're gonna have to be independent prayer, understanding who's we are and what God has done for us. And then we need to be around other people who will help us remember. Um, we tend to hi, get spiritual amnesia very quickly. Mm-hmm. And forget. A lot we forget to remember.

Yes. We forget to remember. And so we need to place ourselves in positions where we do not forget to remember. And again, I wanna say like what we're doing here is not what we talked about in sin Suffer. And saying like, we're not on a. Sin witch hunt here. Right? We are really just posturing ourselves before the Lord for the Holy Spirit to show us something about who we are.

And so this is not like this ruthless self-examination that becomes almost paralyzing. Mm-hmm. Right? It has to be paired with one, asking the Holy Spirit. What I like to say is like the Holy Spirit's not gonna play cat. With you, right? Mm-hmm. His job is to convict you of sin. His job is to show you your Earnhardt.

And his job is also to show you the truth of God's word and connect you to who Jesus is. And so it has to be both. And because if we separate those two, we're gonna fall into one of those ditches of either. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, sinals. And grace bounds all the more, and so we're gonna f we, we can tend to fall into those ditches of like, I'm only talking about sin or I'm only talking about grace, but the gospel says sin bounds and grace to bounds.

We have to hold both together. Yeah. Every day as we're remembering this, you're right. I think one of the biggest, um, results of remembering is this idea of. Forbearance. I know we said that sounds like such a churchy, it's a churchy word. Churchy and biblical. But it is a biblical word. It's a word from the Bible.

But to tease that out a little bit, if you think about forbearance, is really patient self-control. Or we might even say long suffering. Mm-hmm. Um, but I, I like this idea of patient self-control because. God is so patient with us and to, for bear and to remember, you know, to remember our own sinfulness and to remember to be patient and have self-control with other people.

Mm-hmm. Um, it's an important part of being in intimate relationships. We're not gonna be able to jump on everything everybody does around us in the same way. We wouldn't want somebody to jump. Us with everything that we do and say, that would be a very harsh environment to live in. And so I think, you know, as I walk through my life, as I have been more immersed in God's word, if I, as I have understand, understood the gospel more in my, in my own day-to-day life, um, it has really allowed me, empowered me through the spirit in a supernatural way to be more forbearing.

Mm-hmm. You know, we were talking this morning about in marriage, I mean, whatever you're dealing with in. And both sides, whether you're the husband or the wife, like there's always gonna be something like there. And some things we will have to be willing to foray or have patient self-control as we see somebody else mature in their walk with Christ.

And I think about that saint suffer a paradigm, right? If we think about somebody as a saint, one of the things that can help us. In the remembering them as a saint is to remember, um, you know, where we are as a saint and that we are struggling, and also to sort of see where they are and to help them remember the gospel.

And then, you know, as a sufferer that not everything that we would remember about somebody is just that they're a sinner. But that they're also a sufferer and they're struggling. And then, you know, when it comes to sin, we're gonna talk more about biblical confrontation or just how to, and that word sounds so strong cuz we really, there's a lot of ways that we can come alongside people and help them grow, um, without it having to be so direct or harsh at all.

Mm-hmm. But I think all of that, just the, the posturing to get there, to have the gratitude, to have the humility, to have the patient self-control, the forbearance, I think all of that is rooted in remembering. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I'm just thinking of where are some places or practical things we can direct people to.

And I'm, I was thinking about Psalm 51, confession psalm, but it also leads us through just, um, confession. Yes. But then also restore to me the joy of your salvation. Like it, it's pointing you back. So one thing I like to do is rewrite the Psalms and it might be really particular and what I'm. Sing in the spirit of Psalm 51.

The other place I might push people to is Galatians five. You know, we're talking about the fruit of the spirit here, and so we're contrasting it with the deeds of the flesh, and so it's a good place to go and move beyond just our outward behaviors and then really just start investigating what's. Down in our hearts, what are our attitudes and, um, you know, desires and things like that.

So there are different places in the scripture we can take our hearts to that help us remember our sinfulness, and then also remember God's goodness to us, Psalm 1 0 3, remembering his goodness to us and he doesn't remember our sins. And so mm-hmm. Um, what does that mean? So I'm just trying to think of the practical places we can go, because remembering can be a, a step we easily skip over in the process of forgive.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I think those are some great principles and concepts. I hope that our. Listeners can grab onto. I know it's been helpful to me just as we go through this process, as we've broken it down, and I do think that if we would slow down a little bit in our relationship with the Lord and relationship with other people and begin to receive, make sure we have received that initial forgiveness and what that means and what how God defines the parameters.

Of what forgiveness is, and then we remember, um, and I do love that Lueck story because honestly, so often now as I'm going through and there's something that has happened, somebody has sinned against me and I'm still struggling with it, I can just really remind myself like this, I, you know, and let's say there's even been a reconciliation.

They've come and they've asked my forgiveness, and I've granted that forgiveness, but I'm still wrestling with it. Mm-hmm. Then I can just continually remind myself. That, you know, the pardon is, is that I'm not going to exact revenge on them, and 70 times seven, every time they sit against me, I'm not gonna get even.

Mm-hmm. I'm not going to be put myself in the driver's seat to demand, you know, justice or revenge. And that's just really helpful for me, um, as I'm preparing my heart to do a more horizontal work. Which is going to be to move toward them to talk about the offense if and when that's appropriate. Yeah, so we've really taken some time in these first two episodes to kind of slow it down and orient ourselves vertically when we talk about receiving God's forgiveness and then continually reminding ourselves, remembering what we've been given in Christ.

You know, it took a long time to screw the Barbie dolls arms back into her body. Yeah. Believe it or not. Yeah. Took a little while. And so we re as a skill. Yeah. We remember slowly. And so it may feel to people as we're talking about the, this part of forgiveness, like, wow, they're really spending a lot of time here and, and we're spending a lot of time on the part that we tend to forget.

And we're doing that on purpose, right. Because we do tend to skip over it. And so in our next episode, we'll, we'll start to talk about, um, Release and now we're really gonna get horizontal. We're really gonna talk about when I am hurt, what do I do, what do I actually have to consciously do to respond to the, to another with forgiveness?

So if you feel like we've gone slow, you feel like we've oriented, um, in a different way than you're used to, it's gonna start to feel a little bit more familiar next. Yeah, I think so. So join us back for our next episode on release