Season 2 Bonus

Hi, I'm Alex. And I'm Brenda. Welcome to conversational Counseling where counseling and discipleship meet. You felt the condemnation for your actions, but you connected it to how you had suffered, and then you were able to see that you could take responsibility for the sin, but see it in the context of the suffering and the shame just melted away.

Melted away. Yeah. Mm-hmm. This is so, so beautiful.

Well, today we're back and we're gonna do something fun for our forgiveness series. We're going to hear a redemption story. We've been talking about the. Ours of forgiveness and we thought it would be helpful to hear it play out in, uh, real person's real life. Absolutely. Alex, and, and just to kinda high level, give an overview.

You know, we've been talking about, first of all how we receive. Um, the pardon is received from God. We have peace with God because of the pardon that we've received in forgiveness, and then we're to remember, and that's kind of the piece of God throughout our lives. We're remembering the peace that we have received, um, so that we can be patient with others.

Um, then we've also talked about release, how releases are really important part because this is where freedom is secured. I've heard that. You know, forgiveness is where we are. Set free repentance is where the other person is set free. And then we, we talked about wrestling with an, with our, with our R for wrestling.

And um, we talked there about just how now we have to decide what to do with the offenses against us to overlook or to cover. This takes a lot of humility and wisdom and then reconciliation where repair is possible. And this is actually that, uh, horizontal engagement where we are having confess. Sin and forgiveness is, um, ask and granted and all of that.

And then restoration is where peace is realized. And this is where, you know, there's actually a wholeness of the relationship again because, um, all of the other steps have been taken and secured and that has become possible through. Trust being restored as well. And um, we're excited today cuz we have our good friend Sherry Tate on with us and she is the one that's gonna be sharing her forgiveness story.

And we personally know and love Sherry. And Sherry has been an incredible spiritual friend to me. Uh, somebody that I call in my suffering story. Somebody who has. I, I think one, she's only one of the few people I know that gets up like at four 30 in the morning. So I remember one night I couldn't sleep and I was particularly vexed and I texted Sherry, are you awake?

And she was like, yes. And so I just called bawling on the phone and she just met me and weft with me there and ministered to me. So, Sherry, we're so excited to see you here and have you with us. We know that a redemption story is really a way of saying that God can bring beauty out of the ashes that he brings life out of death.

And, um, you know, we'd like to say that the forgiveness, every time that we see forgiveness, um, walked out, that we have a gospel explosion. There's just this mini gospel explosion that happens. And so ideally throughout our lives, we get to see this all throughout our lives. Just the gospel, uh, just being so revealed to us again and again and again.

And so thank you for joining us today. And, uh, we know while this is a, a, you know, A wonderful opportunity to hear your story. We also recognize that it's not necessarily an easy story to tell, um, but the goodness of God, that thread of his grace is just runs through it and is so beautiful. So can you just tell us a little bit about yourself so our listeners can know a little bit about who you are and where you are now before we hear about your story.

Certainly. Thank you Brenda and Alex for having me. I've been so excited about, um, being with y'all and I just have to say that like me preparing for this was the biggest blessing for me. So again, thank you for inviting me. Um, so I, um, serve now as the executive director of a ministry called Daughter by.

And it is a nonprofit ministry that, um, works with, it actually was formed, developed out of my story and the, the, and the way that the God ministered to me in the time when I thought that my life was over. And so, um, we are a counseling ministry that we counsel women that. Struggling in domestic violent relationships and sexual abuse relationships, um, in betrayal trauma and in destructive relationships.

So some pretty hard, uh, mm-hmm. Situations that we deal with. Um, I graduated from the University of Alabama. In 1984 with a, uh, a BS degree in communications and a concentration in public relations. Um, I am a certified biblical counselor with abc. Um, I have completed two certifications, certificates with the Islander Center, um, and.

Those certificate certificates were, uh, concentrating in narrative focused trauma care. And, um, then in January I will complete my PAP certification, which means pastoral sex addiction professional. So, um, yeah, I was. Yeah, I was just gonna say, but one of the things I've always really appreciated about you is just your continuing education and the way that you've, um, just kept like understanding your story mm-hmm.

So that you can help other people with their stories. Mm-hmm. And your training certainly speaks to that as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Everything that I've dug out and trained and, um, put forth effort. Really, truly for my understanding of myself, um mm-hmm. Which has been so helpful. And then, um, just sharing with the next moment in line.

Yeah. Yeah. So, and one of the things you've really dug into Sherry, is your family background, um, and how that's come to the, how that came to be in your adult life. So can you tell us a little bit about your family background and then maybe how you came to know the Lord? Yeah. Um, so I grew up in Selma, Alabama.

Um, I grew up in a dysfunctional family, which a lot of us do. But, um, in my, in my early years, I experienced domestic violence. Um, I experienced sexual abuse and portrayal trauma and controlling relationships. Um, I lived in a complex, And this is similar to A P T S D, um, that many people deal with, which the difference is that P T S D is a one time event where there is a rape or a car wreck or, um, being in a war situation.

But complex trauma is when a child lives in a trauma. Um, environment where, um, there she marinates for a long time and, um, there's no way out, there's no way for escape for her. And so, uh, what that looks like is if the, the child becomes powerless, she becomes isolated, and then she's silent so that she cannot tell anybody exactly what's happening to her.

Mm-hmm. Um, I have an older sister that was killed when I. 19 and she was 21. Um, I have a younger brother and shortly after I married, um, I mean shortly after I graduated I married. And so I have two sons that are 27, 29 and they're dear to my heart. Um, The biggest thing going on in our little circle of family right now is that my oldest son just move, moved to New Zealand.

Oh, wow.

Entails. So first I panicked and then I. Brenda was the first person I talked to after, um, after he told me and when she called or some, I even called her and I said, my son is moving to New Zealand. And I was crying and she's like, praise God. My, my nephew just got back from New Zealand and he found Jesus there.

Yeah, I have really, the Lord truly is everywhere. Yeah. Even New Zealand. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Even New Zealand now. Well, he's so excited. Yeah. So I've had to learn to be, I've had to get excited with him. So yeah. I'm excited about what he's gonna learn and I'm so thankful for, um, FaceTime video and that we can talk and see each other.

Yeah. So I came to the Lord through my suffering and my sin story, um, when I was 25. I. Began to, in my pain, recognize that I needed a savior and, um, that I was a sinner and that, um, I, there was a separation from God and one night in, um, a place where God just ministered to my heart. Um, My heart hurt that indeed I was a sinner.

Indeed I needed a savior. Um, and indeed he had supplied that for me two, 2000 years ago, and it was really such a aha moment that I was deep into my pain. Yes, I'm a sinner. Yes, I'm separated from God, and then all of a sudden, Yes, you supply it. 2000 years ago it was just that beautiful and, um, the Holy Spirit just helped me like to turn from health, which I knew I couldn't solve my, my life and to turn to him and accept what he had done for me on the cross.

And that just began a journey with me and the Lord. Um, Of me learning, um, who he is, what he has done for me, um, what he invites me into, which is Kingdom living, um, who I am. And there's been such a shift in. Realizing by the Holy Spirit, who I, who I am, that I am fiercely mon, wonderfully made, and that he delights in me.

And, um, you know, I do believe the scripture that says the latter years are greater than the former years. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so that is really what I'm experiencing. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's exciting. Well, that's wonderful. Um, you know, you talked about being invited into this forgiveness story, and we love that word invitation because it just, soap represents the heart of God, and God invited you into a story of his forgiveness and then, Um, yeah.

He put you in positions in life, like all of us, to invite others into that forgiveness story as well. Mm-hmm. And so today, yeah. We've asked you to specifically talk about forgiveness and, um, maybe you could share a little bit about the story of forgiveness. I know there's many stories you could share, Sherry, um, in your life where you know you have received the forgiveness of the Lord or you.

Extended forgiveness to other people, or you've been, uh, needed the forgiveness of other people. But could you share a little bit about the forgiveness story that you're gonna be sharing with our listeners today? Yeah, I'd like to share a story about, um, my ex-husband and how I had to learn the process of forgiving, um, forgiveness, um, in, in three different areas.

And so the first area is that I had to, you know, the God helped me to take the log and continues to help me to take the log out of my own eye. So I had to begin to learn how to receive the forgiveness. That God ex offers me. Um, in this particular story, um, I had to receive, receive forgiveness for marrying my ex-husband.

When I went against counsel, I was counseled not to marry him, and I did marry him anyway. Um, the second forgiveness that we'd like to talk about is the forgiveness. Sons extended to me a beautiful forgiveness. And then the third forgiveness is the forgiveness that I had to extend to my ex-husband.

Mm-hmm. So, um, just to tell you a little bit about the story, um, at age 45, I found myself as a single mom and I was trying to race two boys. And one day I went to Panera Bread and um, this older man approached my table and he was very kind and charismatic in his demeanor and, um, very gentle. And he just began to ask me questions.

Um, He started out on a professional level, so we had some things in common. And so I talked to him on a professional level and even gave him my phone number on my card, actually, which had my phone number on it. Um, because there were some things that we wanted to, I wanted to discuss with him on a professional level.

Um, and so right after they called me and then he began to call me and really aggressively pursue me, um, Um, there were many warning signs. Um, in spite of the red flags and the warning signs. He told me that the Lord had sent him to me and the Lord had sent him to me, for me and also to, for me to help me raise my sons.

That he was gonna, he was a doctor of education and so, you know, he claimed that he was gonna help me. Financially and, and put my children through college. And so that was really just a, a hook for me and, and also all the attention that he gave me. And I was a very, um, lonely woman. So, um, against all counsel, I did marry him after five months.

And right after that, the first time I knew that something was seriously wrong was about three weeks into the marriage. And he choked me for the first time. And, um, yeah, I knew that that was, um, something was wrong. I did, I had no idea what to do about it. I was, um, so it started a nine year period of trauma and abuse that, um, I really just couldn't get out of.

Um, there was, was every kind of abuse in the situation. There was, um, verbal, psychological, There was sexual abuse, emotional abuse, um, and then there was spiritual abuse, which is really the one abuse that kept me there the longest. Mm-hmm. Because he used spiritual language to keep me in place. Um, So he would tell me that, um, he would use language like, you need to, um, submit to me and as unto the Lord, like, I'm your husband and God has put me in place to keep you safe.

If you submit to me, he would tell me that I needed to stay under his cover. Which if he said if I did stay under his cover, then God would protect me and my sons, and if I did not stay under his cover, then God would not protect me and would not protect my sons. And so, um, just a real. Horrible bind to be in, to stay there.

You know, thinking that if I stayed and I submitted and obeyed mm-hmm. That God would, would keep my son safe. And that even reconcile us one day with my ex-husband, like reconcile the whole thing. Um, so. After a couple months after we were married, um, there was a decision made after he choked me for the first time.

And then I just kept seeing some things that were very drastic. There was a decision made for my sons to go to Florida to live with their hus, their hu, their father. Mm-hmm. And so that was, um, A very difficult time for me. Um, not, not something that a mom's supposed to go through to leave, lose her sons, um, at 12 and 14, or to let them not live with her at 12 and 14.

Mm-hmm. Um, during those, during less of them leaving. Yeah. Yeah. I was just gonna say, during those nine years, did you, did you stay there? Did you leave? Like, were there, what was going on in terms of the relationship, um, at that point? Yeah, absolutely. I would leave, um, it would get really, really bad and I would leave, and then when I would, I would call my sons and I would tell them that I was out.

Um, I probably left. And this is crazy, but I probably left 25 times and went back, like I could not break the cycle. Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, and sometimes you, you were counseled to go back, right? Oh, yeah. The whole time I was counsel, right? Yeah. Counseled to go back. I, I actually went to five different pastors and told him a story, and every pastor told me to go back and submit to my husband.

One pastor told me that if I just stay in my lane, I will not get. Yeah. And so what do you do with that? Right. You know, I really desired to, um, to be a, a godly wife. Mm-hmm. And so I, I, uh, I think the biggest thing for me was that, um, I had learned to, I had learned in my childhood that there was first time obedience, like you just obey.

Mm-hmm. Especially a man, you just obey. And so I obey. Over and over and over. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Was there any, any, any time, Sherry, you know, we talk in the podcast, clearly this isn't like a normal kind of everyday situation. We're looking at a, you know, a more extreme case. I think that's really helpful to our listeners and to people who have, um, been in these really, really hard situations where forgiveness and reconciliation.

Super, super messy, and the, this process could just go on for years and you're really struggling and Yeah, clearly you wanted to please the Lord. You wanted to do the right thing. You were seeking counsel, right? You were trying to look at the scriptures, you were trying to listen to your husband, all of the things, but h Yeah.

During, during the time that you were with your ex-husband, were there times that you would confront him? Were you mostly overlooking, and how were you negotiating this, this area that we're calling wrestling? Yeah, so. Early in the relationship, I overlooked and I overlooked because I was a people pleaser.

I was very unhealthy. We called this in the, in the defense mechanism of our body. Um, it, I was in a collapse mechanism, which means that I, I was past fighting or. Or flighting, but just my body really just collapsed and I under functioned. And so, um, I could see the dysfunction and I couldn't do anything about it.

I was, um, really in a collapse state, but then God began to. After about seven years, God began to really wake me up and not only wake me up, but empower me and help me to stand up to him. Um, I had to begin to learn in the midst of it how to not react to him. Um mm-hmm. Which reaction to. And this case would look like me, cr me crawling in a following up in a, in a fetal position and crying like I could, I would not stand up to him at all.

Mm-hmm. And I would went from that to being able to learn to respond to him. Um, really sometimes I, in that I could, I could confront him and sometimes I just had to learn to interact with him different. And if I interacted with him different then. I could invite him more into a repentance reconciliation place and still keep myself safe.

So that's process. So what you're just, yeah. And cause what you're describing is so complex and so intricate because, Because there's danger surrounding you in all of this situation. And so you, um, there's not a, there's definitely not a one size fits all for this type of overlooking and confronting and knowing when to do that.

In many ways, the Holy Spirit just had to guide and direct and protect you every step of the way. Yes. And every time I confronted, like the reason I didn't confront in the beginning is because I knew there was a cost. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But when I began to confront, like there was a huge cost to, to confronting.

Mm-hmm. And when I did confront it was, um, yeah, the abuse got worse. Mm-hmm. But, mm-hmm. You know, it did finally end in a divorce because there was no repentance and there could be no reconcili. And that's its own form of confrontation. It's confronting somebody with the consequences of their choices. Yeah.

And you know what, that is really, um, the epitome of, of what biblical love looks like. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So, so many people think that, and me included. I really, so, so one of the things that I learned that I had to unlearn was that biblical love looked like that I was, um, Kind and gentle and spoke a word.

Mm-hmm. And that I would win my husband over that way. Mm-hmm. And so, so out of context for, um, in first Peter, so out of context. Yeah. It reminds me, Sherry, too, of a lot of conversations we've had about the idea of overcoming evil with good and right. We are taught that that overcoming evil with good is, is ways that we're going.

Be gentle and and gracious. Um, mm-hmm. With the other person in a way feels good to them. But we've learned so much over the past several years that overcoming evil with good sometimes means confronting them with the truth, which they don't want. And again, um, allowing them to receive the consequences of their actions, that that is a way of overcoming evil with good.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it's important that we remember that limits and consequences are just another way to love. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's not the absence of. Of love is living in a different way. Right. So, yeah. Well, sure. I know that. So that was something that was really, that was something that was really mistaught in churches.

Mm-hmm. And like it took a lot of digging, running out to the Lord and working with Alex for me to understand. Yeah, what love look like here. And so these are not, I mean, these are not small things when we're talking about forgiveness. This is, I mean, this is big forgiveness. This is capital letter forgiveness.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, I was just gonna say, I know that the Lord brought you to Alex, and so God bega began to bring people into your life and, uh, for you to work through this process of what it was actually gonna look like. Yes. What was forgiveness, what was possible in all of these relationships?

And so can you tell us a little bit about, um, entering into that relationship with Alex and where the Lord begin to take you? Yeah, this is where it gets good. Yay. This is where redemption is turning up his heat. Now it's finally comes. Yeah. Yeah. So in 2015 I went to Young Meadows at the, um, council of another council to go to a church that could help me.

And, um, I asked her to have a relation, I mean a counseling appointment with Alex. And so that began a counseling relationship with Alex, where she. Really offered me a safe place to begin to process and to begin to tell my story for the first time with the ears that knew how to extend grace to all parts of me, even the sinful parts.

I think that was the biggest, um, surprise to me is, The grace that was extended in the places that where I clearly sinned against my sons and, um, against other people and just so much grace. Um, she began to help me to learn language for my story. Like I had no, I didn't know what a, I just hadn't even know what a, a story.

I didn't even know I had a story. And so as we, we began to put language on it, um, I begin those two things that a safe place and then putting language on your story is the beginning of learning how to forgive. For me, to forgive myself and for me to forgive others and for me to ask others for, forgive me.

Like there is an, this is not quick forgiveness and it's not cheap forgiveness. Um, I think about, I think about like a debt, a $5,000 debt. There's a $5,000 debt and we just want to go the easy route. So we forgive it with five, $5. We pay $5 to forgive a $5,000 debt. Mm-hmm. And. It just won't do it. It just will not, um, cover it.

So yeah, we have to begin. Yeah. Let me say something here, Sherry. First of all, let's just be honest. I did not know what I was doing and Sherry came to me. I had only thing under my belt. Was a very, um, an abuse case that went really wrong, um, because I had no training and so I was just beginning to have an awareness of what I didn't know.

And so really what we did when she says that, that, that we got language. She literally means we got language together. We learned this together. And so, um, we began to literally work through many different trauma and abuse curriculums. Um, and then we would just, um, filter all that we were learning. Through Sherry's story and, and filter Sherry's story through what we were learning.

So we were learning this together. I was not able to give her any language at that point. And I also wanna say this, I I, I love the point you're making Sherry of grace and safety, and then a place for you to find your voice and name some things because, um, I, I just wanna say I don't know that this is always the case, but I know with a hundred percent certainty with you, I don.

I, I never came to you and said, okay. Now it's time for you to forgive. Like that conversation happened because you were so in tuned with the Holy Spirit. You already knew that forgiveness had to be part of the process. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I didn't have to push that on you. I didn't have to conf. Front you with forgiveness.

Like the Holy Spirit was there working and, and really I feel like the whole conversation that we were having over many years was always circling around, naming, forgiving, naming, forgiving. No, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a one time event. No, but it's such a testimony the Holy Spirit was constantly doing in your life that, that there was.

There was no point where I was like, Sherry, it's just time. You know? And sometimes there, there are, there are situations where that's necessary. But for you, it was, as the naming occurred, the there was another place where forgiveness was, you knew forgiveness was required. Yeah. Yeah. And what you just said, the, I think that's the greatest part of.

Doing that whole forgiving process is the naming. Mm-hmm. Like we have to name and we have to, for, we have to understand the $5,000 debt mm-hmm. In order to forgive the whole debt. Like we have to forgive the whole, the debt in whole. And I think that, that take this just such a process, isn't it? It just doesn't happen quickly.

And, um, yeah. So Alex and. Started relationship eight years ago, and it is blossomed and bloomed into a friendship and, uh, also to a, uh, a ministry partner relationship where I am so thankful for both Brent Alex that they. Work alongside me and they invite me into their work. And so it's been, it's been beautiful and I, I pray it continues forever.

Forever. It's been redemption. It's been redemption for sure. Yes. Yes. Such redemption. Sherry, take us a little bit, you know, more, let's walk through kind of some of the specifics of where forgiveness was applied and granted, and. Um, even maybe some of the forgiveness myths, we could talk about that, but what did it look like for you to receive and remember God's forgiveness of you as you walk through this process?

Particularly because there is so much suffering in your story as well. Mm-hmm. But you were also having to take responsibility for where you knew you had sinned. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a, a fuzzy line. There's such chaos in that, but really, As I think about the forgiveness, um, that occurred and what I learned, I, I realized that first, like even Jesus says that we have to take the walk out of our own at first.

And so I, um, had to learn and receive, um, I had to receive God's forgiveness for myself. And I had to learn how to walk in forgiveness, um, learn how to walk in grace and learn how to walk in mercy. And, um, I love this last one. I had to learn how to walk in kindness for myself as Christ and God or is or kind towards me right now.

Like that's the only thing that gives me permiss. To not lend, you know, condemnation of myself, but I come into a place of kindness because God sees me through the lens of kindness, um, shows me kindness, and now I get the privilege of showing myself kindness. Mm-hmm. So what that looks like, um, I began to understand that, um, I knew God's love, incredible love for me intellectually, like an intellectual ascent of God's love.

I nearly said, and I, you know, I believed that as much as I could, but I had never really experientially felt God's love, and that was just really, really important to go into these really deep places. Of learning to forgive. And so, um, I re I began to pray Ephesians three, um, 17. I saw in the scripture that God said that we are rooted and grounded in the love of Christ.

And I just began to just question him and say, God, I don't. I, I, I know that, but I do not feel that. And I just really want to experience the love of God for me. And I just experienced over time the Holy Spirit given me, um, real assurance and experiential times when I felt God's love for me. Um, and that, Huge.

And then I began to learn about my suffering story. And so as I learned, you know, we are talking about my sins story, but as we look at the suffering story, which I'd never even considered, didn't know I had a suffering story, and as I began to. Look at my suffering story do, and I began to, to receive much grace from God.

Um, and not kind of mission like I thought that, um, that like I, that I would, I was, I had to. Received forgiveness because he was angry at me. And, um, instead he was showing me that he was not angry at me, but that he actually delighted in me. And that was a real, a game changer. When I began to understand his delight in me, then I could begin to understand to.

Forgiveness from him because it didn't require me to look back at how angry he was at me. And it was just such a sweet, sweet, um, time of me receiving his forgiveness. Um, I had to learn how to walk in. Um, can I, uh, I'm sorry that we had a little delay and you didn't hear me interrupt you. I wanna just share one little story about how that worked out.

Okay. Um, I remember one day you came to my house. You showed up at the front door. Oh my right. I know this story. Oh my goodness. And you were weeping and you, and you said, I've been weeping the hallway way over here. And then I think you looked at me and said, Alex, I lied. Is that, is that what it was that day?

You said? I lied. Like I did a lot of lying in my marriage. I'm, I'm a perpetrator too. Like I lied. And, um, and we got to just sit for a minute and. Of course you lied. Like there you were in a dangerous situation. You were trying to protect your sons, you were trying to protect yourself. And I've heard you say it to so many women, you know, since then of of course you did.

And that I that. So I wanna just connect the understanding your suffering story to receiving the grace of God is that our suffering story. So many times our sin is born out of our suffering story and I think. We tell ourselves a story of like, no one else would've done this, and shame keeps us silent.

Like, I can't believe I did this, and no one else would've reacted this way. And so I remember that day because when I was like, Sherry, like Of course you lied. I would've lied too. You were trying to stay safe and you looked like, I mean, you were almost confused by the grace of God in that moment, like, This can't be happening mm-hmm.

That God would forgive me for, for these things. And so it, it was such a beautiful moment to me to watch you in a real particular where you felt the condemnation for your actions, but you connected it to how you had suffered. And then you were able to see that you could take responsibility for the sin, but see it in the context of the suffering and the shame just melted away.

Melt it away. Yeah. Mm-hmm. This is so, so beautiful. Yeah. Sherry, so, um, as we just continue to look at your story, one of the things that really has stood out to me is that your story kind of takes a split in how forgiveness is applied. Um, toward rec restoration and sometimes how it's not going to lead to restoration.

And so with your sons, it looked very different on this journey or pathway of forgiveness and reconciliation than it did with your ex-husband. So can you tell us a little bit about the story of forgiveness with your sons first, and then maybe we can talk about the story of forgiveness with your ex-husband and even how God has brought redemption out of.

You know, in, for you and for others, but first about your sons. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that journey. Yeah. So when I came out for the last time, I mean the, the, the desire of my heart was for, to have reconciliation with my sons. And so I knew that I had harmed them in great ways and I knew that I was responsible for so much.

And so I invited them to come to my house, um, and spend the weekend with me. And, um, They did and that Saturday afternoon I invited them into the living room. And so we went in there and it was a very sober moment. And, um, I just took full responsibility for all the ways that I had hurt them. Um, And then I took full responsibility for an addiction, which I realized that my relationship was actually an addiction to me, and, um, took full responsibility for an that addiction and that I stayed bound to this man that, that meant us all harm.

Mm-hmm. Um, so I, the first thing I did was, um, I told them that I did not expect them to, um, Trust me that I had broken trust so many times, and that I did, I actually didn't trust myself and I was very, very honest with them about that. And then I did ask them, um, I told them that I wanted to become a woman that was trustworthy and that it was gonna take some time, but that I wanted them to, um, I was asking the Lord to help me to be trustworthy so that, um, You know, maybe in time they could trust me, but I really gave them a lot of space.

I think that's really key, Sherry, because the, I really watching the whole process, I think the way that you became trustworthy with your boys is that you had come with all this language and you were ready to repent in great detail. Yes. To them. And, and you were realizing in every conversation you were having to discern how much they were ready to hear and becoming trustworthy meant that you allowed them to, to lead the conversation.

Yeah. And you were ready to repent when they were ready to talk about something. Not that you were forcing on them to go back into hard memories for them so that you could get it off of your chest. It is. Such an important point when we talk about becoming trustworthy again because you let them set the pace that allowed them to heal instead of you setting the pace that let you feel absolved.

Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I realized that like, They weren't ready or even mature enough to hear the story, um, as I had learned it and that I was harming, I would harm them. Mm-hmm. And so I had to wait. Yeah. Mm-hmm. No, for sure. But the beautiful part of the story that we know is that restoration has begun to occur.

There was reconciliation Yes. Where sin was confessed and impacts were stated and confessions were made. Forgiveness was granted. And trust is being, being been being rebuilt in your lives. Yeah. And you know, kind of that idea of reconciliation as you're remembering things, as they have maturity and capacity, as you're more aware of where they are.

And so these are ongoing conversations. That's one of the things we really. Wanted to point out in the podcast is again, it's not like the forgiveness flow chart is this step one, step two step three step, four step, and then you get to the end of it's done. It's like we're weaving in and out, in and out all the time in this process, particularly when we're in, you know, relational conflict that is ongoing and intimate.

In intimate relationships in particular. Yeah. So, um, well, the situation, you know, we, we can look at that situation and easily say, oh, we see the redemption in that because we got to restoration and that's awesome. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But sometimes what we miss is where is the redemption when we don't get to reconciliation and restoration?

So maybe first you could just tell us, um, I'd love to know maybe even some of the myths as you look at your ex-husband that you might have been believing about forgiveness. And then tell us a little bit about what you've learned of what you needed to be looking for, if it was going to move forward.

Yeah, for sure. So, um, yeah, I think that

I lived in a belief system that I never questioned. And the belief system was that I had to forgive and I had to reconcile the relationship. Like that was what it looked like. And, um, that terrified me because reconcile the relationship was. Very, very dangerous for me and for my sons. And so, um, I had to begin to look at like, what, what is repentance?

Like if somebody just says, I'm sorry, is that repentance? And I think that's what I would've thought earlier. Um, but then I had to study and, and understand what is, what is, what does it take? Reconcile the relationship. Um, and so I had to study repentance and then I had to study reconciliation. And according to, um, Steven Tracy and Celestial Tracy, uh, they have a definition of repentance that has five parts.

And then I, I use this all the time in my. With my own self and then with my counsel and all, all five parts have to be present, and so I'm gonna read them because they are very specific and I want everybody to get the full detail. Number one, repentance is acknowledging the widespread and extensive damage done to the victim and demonstrating remorse for the harm done.

Repentance is taking full responsibility for the abuse by confessing sin and the impact it has had. Repentance is establishing new boundaries that demonstrate respect for the victim and help ensure that the abuse will not reoccur. Repentance is taking active steps to change the pattern of behavior that led to the abuse.

The abuser would begin to have active relationship with God, with the body of Christ in accountability, um, to people and also, um, The, they would, the person would be in a, in a ongoing counseling relationship with someone that can help assure that the abuse would not happen again. Mm-hmm. And then, um, make restitution to the victim.

And so I love, um, what John the Baptist said in Luke three eight. He's actually talking to the Pharisees and he tells the Pharisees that they need to bring forth. Fit for repentance. And so we are looking for these five things are the fruit of repentance and, um, the pro the process of repentance is, is a, is a deep process.

It's a sincere process. It is a broken hearted process for the harm that I've caused the other person. And we can define and also determine when we see repentance. And through this definition we also. Define and determine when we do not see repentance. And so this is really, really important, um, because we are commanded in scripture to forgive, but we are not commanded in scripture to reconcile if, um, repentance has not, if it's not safe for, um, you know, reconciliation to.

When if these five, you know, things of repentance are not evident, then we do not reconcile yet. So Sherry, that just leads me, I guess to the next question, and that would be, you know, when there hasn't been, you've confronted somebody and there is no reconciliation, therefore means there's not going to be any restoration.

Then, you know, I would say that redemption occurs above the overlook the offense or confront the offense line when we receive, remember and release. But how did you actively, how was it that you actively practiced forgiveness in that way when there could not be inter any reconciliation or restoration?

Because this person wasn't going to acknowledge their wrongdoing and rep. Yeah. So, um, I really wrestled with that a lot. Like I, I just had to wrestle like, what does this look like? And I remember, um, Just going through it and thinking, okay, forgiveness here looks like that I do not take revenge. Mm-hmm.

That I leave. Um, you know, the Lord says that vengeance is mine and that I had to understand and trust that he is a God of justice and, and right. Righteousness. And so that it was actually too big for me that it take any further about it. I could just reward, um, trust that do what was right. Um, I had to learn to, to pray for my ex-husband to pray that um, God would bring him to a place of repentance.

Mm-hmm. And that God would restore his relationship with himself. Um, so they're. Where we begin to learn to pray for our enemies. Mm-hmm. Um, I had to learn. God said he would vindicate me one day. And so that in this process of forgiving that I don't try to vindicate myself. And I can tell you like this is one of the hardest places that I had to learn, um, the fruit of the spirit of self-control because we wanna make things right.

Mm-hmm. Especially like when our reputation has been marred and. We wanna set the story straight and tell really what happened and God just be continuously ministered to me that I was to, to hold my, hold my story to myself until it was time to tell it. And so, um, I learned to, um, to have con self control travel in that.

Area. And it's real interesting because there's many, many, many moments. Even like I did forgive him, I did release revenge. But today, in days in the future, there's many moments in my body and in my emotions that I'll actually feel, experience the, um, the shame of it all. Um, the way that I was annihilated as a person, the way that I was disregard.

Um, disrespected, humiliated. I was powerless at me. And, um, there was so much betrayal. And so at those times when I feel that in my body and my emotions, like I've had to learn that I have to forgive again. Mm-hmm. Keep releasing the vengeance to the vintage, to the Lord. Keep releasing vintage to the Lord.

And, um, yeah, that's been, um, you. Psalm 86 11 says, teach me your way. So God, that I may walk in your truth. Give me an undivided heart that I may fear your name. And that has been really a, um, foundational verse for me because I realized in this process of. Leaving and going back, leaving and going back, leaving and going back.

Like one day I was like, this song came on and it was a song of, of Psalm 86 11. And as I was singing it out loud, cuz I knew the song, I just began to hear, teach me your ways Lord. And I knew that I was, I didn't know his ways. I didn't know his ways. And so, um, it's really a time when I have to continue to ask the Lord to teach me his ways, which is so countercultural to our flesh.

And, um, yeah, it has to be done, led by the spirit, taught by the spirit, empowered by the spirit. It has to, it's, it is a spirit led process. Yeah. Well, Sherry, as we close our time together today, could you just maybe highlight for us, um, some of the ways that you've seen God redeem your suffering and your story of forgiveness?

Yes. I love this part. Yeah, I can, as I was thinking back on this, I, I can remember a time, I mean, it wasn't even long ago when I thought my life was over. It was so dark and such despair and, um, I've just seen the kick, the faithfulness of the Lord, um, day in day and, and date out. Um, and just the way that he has, he has brought redemption to my relationship with my sons.

Like I. He told me the Holy Spirit would ter my heart that, um, that I needed to wait and I needed to trust him. And I, you know, even though they forgave me 15, I mean, in 2015 the relationship was damaged. And so really we had to work through that. And, um, I can remember just laying on the floor crying when, you know, things would happen.

And it was just so grievous to me and even the way that I'd, you know, caused the relationship to be damaged. And now it's been 15 years since they went to live with her dad. And I am just beginning to see like the redemption of, um, of how they. Respond to me how they, they've had a little, um, maturity of their, their own self and they also have had life experiences to help them understand me a little better.

And so, um, we're having now conversations that they are leading, which I just could never see that happening. And oh my goodness, we sat on the beach this past weekend. Sitting watching the sunset, and I just sat marveling at what the conversation was that they were leaving. And so, you know, when I sat there, like, um, somebody asked me what that felt like and I just, I was certainly in the conversation, but I felt like there was this warm blanket just enveloping me saying, and God's saying like, you trusted me.

I love you. I want the best for you. I want good for you and your sons. There's goodness in the land of the living. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so that was just so, so beautiful. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, then I can see God using my own story to bring redemption to other women and. You know, because of the places that I've walked and sat in, I'm able to sit and now I sit all, you know, daily in women's stories and hear, um, this, the hard emotions, the grief that they're feeling.

And, um, I'm able to weave at those who weep and, um, Uh, comfort, those that are not comforted. And, um, so I just love how God is redeeming the heartache. I can remember all through that marriage when it was really, really, really bad under my breath. Every single day, almost every moment of the day, I would say to mess myself, God, please do not let this be in vain.

I said, A million times, like I could not get out of it. There was no way out yet. But, um, I knew that I did not want to be that, all of that to be in vain. And so it's just really precious to me that God is, it is not in vain and that he is using it for his glory. Um, and the other place I see redemption is just like we said in my own story.

Oh, just the depth of, of what he's teaching me about himself and, um, again, who he is and what he's inviting me into and who I am and, um, that the forgiveness is the past, is the present. It's the future. And so we think so much about, like, we hear about the good news of the gospel. And so many times in my earlier, like that was just a rote, uh, saying a mantra, you know, it's the good news.

And, and I really didn't have much drivenness to go share it because I was in so much pain. But I mean, right now I just wanna shout it from the mountaintop that, um, you know, the, the finished work of Christ for us and. Our lives and for the ones we love and for what is redeeming in the, um, in the whole Earth is like that is the good news and it's so beautiful.

Amen. Yeah. Well, Sherry, thank you so much for coming on to talk with us today and, um, to share this beautiful story of redemption in so many different ways. And we know the story's not over. Your story's not over. This story's not over, and we're excited to continue to be friends with you and just see what the Lord's gonna continue to do to bring redemption.

But we love you. I think we can ask Malia to drop maybe your ministry link into our show notes. So if people would like to connect with you on a deeper level, they could reach out to you. Um, there may be some women who are listening to us today that are, yeah, they're in some really hard spaces and, um, my.

Need somebody like you to, to talk with. So, so thankful for you and we just bless God for you and mm-hmm. Um, thank you and your willingness to share your story and use your story in a way that, um, you know, promotes the kingdom and puts the gospel on display. Thank you, Sherry. Thank you, Brenda. Thank you, Alex.