Season 1 Episode 6

Hi, I'm Alex. And I'm Brenda. Welcome to conversational Counseling or Counseling and discipleship. Meet. Reality is what God says is reality. We are gonna have to bring God's truth, not our truth, not what we say is true. What God says is true. You know, one of the things that um, I think is the biggest danger to good listening and.

Speaking up is assuming things. I have to be willing to wait in and ask questions and, and kind of open up every part of what they're telling me.

Well, Brenda, we're gonna say some bad words today. Woo. Ooh. I know. Those four letter words. We told our children never to say exactly when, when my nephews were little, they used to say that they were bad words and two of them were, you don't say stupid. Mm-hmm. Or you ate it and the third one was, shut up.

Oh, shut up. That was a bad, bad, bad, bad word. In our home. That is a bad word. And we're gonna say it because a lot, our three things today are show up, shut up, and speak up. Mm-hmm. We're using it in the best sense of the word, though. Exactly, yes. The biblical sense of shutting up. That's right. We have just Absolut.

Sanctified the whole shut up thing. That's right. But if you have two and three year olds and you're listening, you can turn us down. That's right. That's right. Put them, put them to bed and then come back to us. Well, one of the things we wanna recognize as we move forward is that our methodology or how we go about ministering to people is as important as our theology.

Mm-hmm. What we're saying to people. And um, one of the little phrases that we'd like to coin is, Little word called councilship. And so we like to say that this is where counseling and discipleship intersect. And if we're going to look at what it, what it really looks like to one another or to minister to walk alongside, then we wanna do it the Jesus Way.

Mm-hmm. Um, we wanna do it in a way that res sense and embodies who Christ is as much as represents and embodies what Christ would. Right. So a lot of this series has been giving hooks or structures to think about walking alongside someone. And today we're gonna talk about what to do when we walk alongside someone or not do as the case may be.

This is true. This is true. Well, let's talk about show up. Um, that's the, the first thing. I mean, it is. You know, makes sense. We gotta show up. We gotta show up. This is the ministry of presence. And I think it's just, um, it's so easy to forget that our presence is important. Mm-hmm. And that our presence in other people's lives mirrors this beautiful spiritual truth of the incarnation of Christ that he showed up for us.

Um, I think that it is, Bible that translates John, one of Jesus became flesh and came to live in our neighborhood. Yeah. That's so beautiful. Mm-hmm. That really is. Mm-hmm. Well, and we just see, you know, a pattern in scripture over and over starting in the Old Testament and then, you know, going through the New Testament of when God's people are in pain.

Love propels him to show up. Mm-hmm. Like he hears the cry of his people and his presence is real, and his presence is such a precious promise to us that he'll never leave us, he'll never forsake us. He hears our cries. He knows. And so this is really a way that we embody the ministry of Christ. We can live incarnation nationally.

And um, yeah. And have a pattern of this is what love looks like. We have a good friend of ours, Jerry Leachman, who always says to us, you can fake caring, but you can't fake showing up. Uhhuh, I love that. And Paul and I use that all the time. Mm-hmm. Because even, um, you know, even my nieces having, my niece nephew are having their one year old birthday party this weekend, and there was a million Reasons Is Outta Town why we couldn't go.

But we just really looked at each other, and we say this all the time, we can fake caring. We can tell 'em we love 'em. We can tell 'em we're so glad they have this child, but we have nothing going on. Mm-hmm. We've never been to their house, we've never been in their world. Or we can be Jesus and show up to their neighborhood.

Mm-hmm. And bless them. Mm-hmm. And so we're going, and you know, even just your example there showing, showing up is costly. You're making a sacrifice. Exactly. Yeah. And probably, you know, for most of us in our culture that sacrifice a lot of time is just time. Yes. Time is such a precious commodity and I know that most of the people that I counsel, and you probably could say this as well, we, we don't have any margin.

Mm-hmm. It's hard to show up. Now granted, there are seasons that we're showing up. Big time in our homes, you know, we've got multiple children, we've got careers, we're in the thick of it. But, you know, I wanna take a second and just speak to maybe people that are the empty nesters in my season of life. In your season of life.

Mm-hmm. And there comes a point, oftentimes now, you know, there are extenuating circumstances where people are moving into that season and there's some hard things. But for, for a lot of us, for the first time in our life, we have some time, money, and resources. Breathe. Alex, it's happening. You almost got everybody off payroll.

We just got everybody off payroll this year. Now we actually have more money. Yeah. Um, but you know, this. This idea of time, money, and resources to redeploy. It's not, you know, we, we've been using those things, but they've been deployed in a certain way and now Paul and I can look around and we're always praying like, Lord, where can we show up?

Mm-hmm. Where is it that you want to redeploy us? And it's really easy as we get older to sort of wanna sit back and it is, you know, and just. And spend those resources on ourselves cuz we're tired and we've been doing this a long time and we feel like we've earned it. We've earned it, it's owed to me. So the first thing we have to do is show up.

And I think, you know, seven, the, some of the, the, the seven greatest words might be, you don't have to walk this alone. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How many times have you said that to a woman in front of you? Yeah. You don't have to walk this alone. Mm-hmm. I tell you that I got an email this week from a woman who we said that to in a counseling session, um, my coworker and I, and she just emailed back saying like, I just couldn't believe it.

Mm-hmm. Like to know that you were gonna enter in with me and you were gonna walk this journey out. Like nobody has ever done that for me. Mm-hmm. And we think. Should that be so rare in the Christian Church? Right. But too often it is. And you know it's gonna take you to places that you don't wanna go. Oh.

I mean, maybe physically like you'd like to be home this weekend on your couch. Um, but also emotionally it's gonna take you to places you don't wanna go. If you're really gonna show up for someone Yeah. It's gonna, you're gonna have to show up emotionally for them and you may not wanna experience that suffering.

That they're suffering. Yeah. That they are experiencing. But, and the other thing is we have to keep showing up. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say is a lot of times it's not the initial show up. Yes. It's easy to show up and go, Hey, I'll be praying for you. Here's a gift card to whatever and you know, let me know if you need me.

Right. And that's not really the kinda showing up we're talking about, we're talking about very intentionality. I'm texting you. Mm-hmm. I'm praying for you. I'm sending you bible verses. I'm inviting you out for coffee. I'm inviting you into my home. Just, you know, just as something as simple as somebody knowing that consistently I'm praying for you.

Mm-hmm. I know for me, um, there are all these people in the last 10 years and all these different locations that know about the struggles we've had, you know, that I've had and that my son's had, and our family's had. And it is just amazing to me how somebody. Quote unquote random will say, the Lord, put your son on my heart.

How's he doing? I'm praying for him. Mm-hmm. And you know, it's just so sweet to know that even in five years later that somebody is still praying or, or just even to say like, I've got people who I feel like are more faithful in their prayers for him than I've been. Right. You know, that's just like, God, you love him and you love me so much.

Mm-hmm. That's so amazing to sacrifice and commitment to commitment. Show up. Yeah. I think that's good. One of my favorite show up stories is My girls were little. I think my oldest was in kindergarten, and you know they have the end of the year party. And all the parents show up and we celebrate that you finished kindergarten and they were having a little luau and they're so excited.

And one of the ways that pain was really difficult for me is that I would wake up every morning and not know how I was gonna be able to function that day. Mm-hmm. And sometimes I had limited functioning and sometimes I had no functioning at all. Mm-hmm. Which meant that I would get up and everything would just lock.

In, in my back and my hips. And I would literally be back in bed and that would be a two or three day ordeal. And so this was one of those mornings where I thought that I was going to the kindergarten luau and sent, uh, got my daughter off to school and everything locked up and I found myself back in the bed.

Mm. And I was really, really sad because it was just another one of those things that I was missing. And in addition to that, I was back in my bedroom in the bed and um, I had an oven. That had a short in it. And the short meant that at random times it would beep and it would not stop beeping. Oh goodness.

And the beeping was the straw that broke the, I mean, I was losing my mind, laying in the bed. Grieving and the beeping starts, and I know, like I know how to turn it off, but I know it is not going off until I go out there and push the button and I can't do it. And so I call my neighbor, who's a good friend of mine, who has shown up for me many times, and um, and I say, Kathy, can you please come and turn my oven off?

And she knew exactly what I'm at. I said, I'm in the bed and I can't get out. And so she came up and turned the oven off. Blessed relief. But she didn't stop there. She came and literally crawled in bed with me. Oh. And held my hand, and we cried together. Oh. Because she knew it's beautiful. Yes. She had a kindergartner.

She was going to the luau that day, and she knew exactly what it felt like to not be able to do for your children the way you want to. And I will never forget, I don't think, I couldn't tell you one single word she. I don't even know if she spoke, but she laid down in my bed and cried with me, and that is what I needed that day.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that really. Makes me also think that so often the places that God might call us to be very present and show up are places that we have experienced great pain. Mm-hmm. And there is something about somebody showing up that understands your pain. Mm-hmm. And I think many times we can kind of hide our suffering.

Um, story or our sins struggle because of, you know, shame or guilt or fear or whatever. But oftentimes that is the very, very thing that makes our presence so powerful, right? So we actually know how to minister to that person. So here's this mom coming in your bedroom, who knows what you're feeling. She's empathetic.

Mm-hmm. And she can truly weep with. Because if she, if she were experiencing that, she would know what it's like. Right. And I find that oftentimes that in my own life, I, I feel like those are kind of the kind of people I tend to check in on. Mm-hmm. That I will go the long haul with even more. Because there is something, like, I understand this struggle and how hard it is.

Mm-hmm. And so the Lord is always putting these people on my heart and my mind mm-hmm. To walk with them, but, That's really good. Well, let's talk about the four letter word with the up. Shut up. Let's talk about what we mean when we say shut up, Alex. Well, I think when we talk about methodology in walking with someone in discipleship and counseling, we tend to think, what am I going to say?

And we go there. And so we are trying to slow that down. Obviously, we're talking about being with somebody, showing up with them, and then we're saying that we don't speak first, that we show up for them, and then we shut up and we listen, and we listen really well, and it is hard to listen. Than, well, I remember when I first started counseling, I think for at least the first five years, my regular prayer, I, I weekly prayed the proverbs verse about, um, the purposes of a man's heart are deep.

Well, yeah. And just realizing that, um, I needed to. That deepness, that depth of person required me to learn to lean in and listen well, and to really know another person's story well. Someone said that we should listen so well that when we do get the opportunity to speak, we tell another person's story and they say, You, you got me.

Like, that's me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that takes a lot of listening. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We've got a great example of that. So, um, I just remember this one, one time I was really, really, really struggling with my son's rebellion. And, um, I showed up to the house of two girlfriends and I was just unloading on them and just burying my soul.

But the whole time I was beating myself up, why wasn't I better mother? How come I couldn't do more? What more could I do? Why are we back in this place again? What did we do wrong? And I'll never forget, one of the dear Saints friends of mine looked at me and said, Brenda, You're grieving. Mm-hmm. And Alex, I didn't know I was grieving.

Mm-hmm. But she had taken the time to listen and at the very, very end of me weeping, of me cursing, of me crying, of me crying out to the Lord, I mean, all of it. I was in such anguish of soul, um, because I, my heart was broken. Mm-hmm. But I couldn't even recognize it as grief. Mm-hmm. Because all I could kept, I just kept fixating on what was I doing wrong and why were there no changes.

Mm-hmm. You know, it. It was just all this condemnation and this desire to think it was up to me to make things right. And so, um, so often, like you said, it's, there's a part of when we unburden ourselves to someone else, like they can even feel something that we might not recognize it. And when they give words to it, Oh.

Mm-hmm. Because the Bible says that a foolish son brings grief to his mother. Mm-hmm. And I was literally walking that out in that moment. Mm-hmm. But she wouldn't have known that if she hadn't really listened to me the entire time. And let me even vent, let my wind words fly. Yes. She would've just been like, rebuking me.

Like, you can't talk to God that way, and why do you feel that way? And you know, but she didn't. And that was so beautiful. And honestly, that was such a turning point mm-hmm. In the whole big picture of how I began to wrestle, um, with the struggle with my son. Yeah. Because, you know, it had been so much about me, honestly, and what I could do and what I hadn't done, as opposed to just the, the sadness of my heart and the sadness of God's heart for me and my child.

Yeah. You said let your wind words fly. I think we should, um, mention what that is. This is a reference to the book of Job when he says that, you know, these are words for the wind. Yeah. And that there are, what a, what a friend does who listens well is recognizes that there are things that just need to be blown away.

That's right. They're coming out of great grief and great sorrow. That's right. And um, and again, it takes wise listening to know what needs to just be blown. That's right. Oh yeah. Cuz I mean, you can just crush someone. We've all been there where we've been so hurt or so angry or so frustrated, you know, and just we're, man, we are just talking.

Talking. Mm-hmm. You know, there's just, there's just fleshly talk coming. Mm-hmm. And we're just venting. And, um, and we really just need somebody wise enough to go, like, I don't need to stop and rebuke you on that. Mm-hmm. That's not the issue here today. Mm-hmm. The issue is, is like you are in pain. Mm-hmm. Or you are frustrated, like there's something more going on.

And that identifying with emotion is empathy. Yeah. And so there's skills that go along with empathy. You know, real empathy is saying to someone, what's it like to walk in your shoes? Mm-hmm. And what, what are you feeling? And I'm gonna feel it with you. And there. Skill and like we said, methodology that goes along with that.

And we're gonna keep touching on that. Yeah. As we develop, um, these podcasts. And we'll probably even do a series on listening because there are, um, tricks and tools that we can use to help us become good listeners. Mm-hmm. So that's coming. Yeah. That's good. Well, I was thinking my daughter and my son-in-law are moving into their new house and I was thinking about sort of this idea of listening and then asking questions and just how.

They had to load all their boxes up and their, they had to unload their boxes, but they didn't unpack 'em. Mm-hmm. Like they unloaded their boxes first, then they unpacked their boxes. Oh yeah. And sort of this idea that listening is that idea of allowing somebody to unload the boxes. Yeah. I like that. I like the picture.

Thank you. Mm-hmm. Wow. That was good, wasn't it? Holy Spirit inspired. Mm-hmm. No doubt I'm not so perfect. And it feels so good. Like we, when we've been listened to, well, we have an experience of feeling understood. I'm feeling, just feeling loved. I mean, I can think of people in my life who are good listeners and how I wanna be around them.

Yeah. And um, we talked about that right brain to right brain experience, that there really is like this connection mm-hmm. Through listening when we really feel like someone has, um, sacrificed the time. Mm-hmm. The energy, the emotion. Effort. Mm-hmm. To listen well. Mm-hmm. So the last thing I wanna convey is that this is a passive experience when you are unloading the boxes into your daughter's house, it was not passive.

That's right. It took a lot of effort. Yeah. And so it's an active experience that we need to grow in and we need to grow in. Mm-hmm. Um, in our skill in listening. Yeah. I have to admit one thing, maybe confession is good for the. But I laughed because years ago, uh, I was in a counseling class for marriage and family.

And the assignment was the speaker listener technique. You know that one? Mm-hmm. You know, it's where the idea of talking stick came from. And people say that a lot, but they may not know. It comes from this technique called speaker listener. And in the technique you have to, um, You know, tackle a problem, hopefully one that's not too emotional.

And you, um, you the first person talks and, um, the second person rephrases back to them. Mm-hmm. And then the first person gets to clarify until they feel heard, and then the second person gets. To make their point and you repeat the process. And so we have to practice this technique with a partner and we have to write up our experience.

And so I'm pretty convinced that between me and my husband, I am going to be the better listener because of course I listen for a living. I'm a counselor, so we sit down in our bedroom one day and we decide to tackle. What we're gonna do that weekend, we had some scheduling conflicts and how we're gonna do it and there was some wrestling that we knew was involved and, and we begin to do the technique and I make my point and he says it back to me until I say yes.

You know, I clarify. And we get to, okay. He understands my point. Now, Mason, it's your turn to make your point. And he says his point. And I have no idea what he said. Oops. And we gave through the whole technique and I realized over and over and over again that I am thinking about what I have to, what I wanna say next because I have some really good points to make right.

And I am like listening to him. And by the end he is laughing and I am. So embarrassed. And I have to admit, of course, to my professor that I am not a good listener. And it just really proved to me that I thought I had skill that I didn't. And it proved to me that just because I have a skill, maybe in one area, like in my office, I don't always bring that home.

Yeah. And, and, and sacrificed for my family to listen the way I should and that I needed to slow down and learn to listen. Yeah. To the people I loved. Yes. That's so good. And I like what you said. Sometimes it seems this a lot easier to make sacrifice and commitment out there. Yes. Than it is in here. And by I mean like out in the world versus in our intimate relationships.

And I really need, you know, just to go back to this idea of margin. I mean, one of the things that we see in counseling so often is people don't have time even in their own families. To show up and listen. Right? And so immediately it's what's expedient. You know, we, we gotta get things done and so nevermind that you're hurt or that you're in distress or whatever.

Like, come on, I'm just gonna tell you what to do. I'm gonna speak up, right? And I just look back at my parenting and I just wonder how different an experience it would've been for my children if I had taken more time to show up just in presence. Just lay down next to 'em, put my arms around them, kiss their foreheads.

Like just do that. And then really, really, Not listening so I could figure out what I was gonna say and why my way was gonna be right, and why they needed, but just truly just listening to their experience, to their feelings, to their thinking. Mm-hmm. And then carefully and wisely enter into speaking. And I really think a lot of what just prohibits that is we live life and just mock speed so fast and so.

I, I, you know, it was so funny. I was in a class one time in my, um, in, when I was going through school and the professor was talking about how we were made to monotask. Mm. You know, this one thing. Oh, you know, this whole idea of just monotasking, of loving, you're coming way too glass, Brenda. And I want you to know, it just hit me upside the head.

I was like, wait. I thought the whole key was to be able to multitask as many possible things as I could in my life. And it was very convicting because if I can't do this one, Mm-hmm. Because I was really made first to Monotask. Yes. And then figure out where the multitasking priorities come in. Oh yeah. I know.

It's, I love efficiency and it is hard to let efficiency die because it is not efficient to slow down. Yeah. And show up for someone and listen to them. No, it's not efficient, is it? Mm-hmm. It's, we live in a productivity oriented society. I mean, it comes from us at all. I mean, naturally I think we have a bent, a sinful bent toward productivity, toward work.

Doing the work, right. So we can get the approval. Mm-hmm. Um, or the feeling of accomplishment. And then just culturally, we're just in a cultural setting where it's all about productivity and where we are driven. Mm-hmm. We are driven from the outside. We are driven from the inside. Mm-hmm. And so that is, that is not God's kingdom ethic driving.

Is not his kingdom ethic. Mm-hmm. Loving, shepherding, guiding, caressing, encouraging. Like that is where the Lord lands. I love that because it, it just reminds me that, um, if we don't create margin in our day, we are going to view people as interruptions. That's right. Mm-hmm. Oh, and our husband and our children will be the first line if we're married, you know?

Mm-hmm. I mean, how often had I just thought, you know, I've gotta get this done. Why are you talking to me? I was like, oh, cuz you, this is actually the interruption to me doing what God's called me to do. Not talking to you right now. Um, yeah, so Mar is gonna be, I think, a real big part of our, it's interesting, like margin for our methodology.

Mm-hmm. And we have to have that. Mm-hmm. Is that tweet. Yeah. Environment, methodology. I say it on this thing now. I love that. Cause you do, do you have a Twitter account? No, don't do, but it sounds so kind of cool. Act like I know what I'm talking about. Yeah, exactly. Okay, we're gonna show up. We're gonna shut up and then we're gonna speak up.

So De Brown Huffer has this beautiful quote, we should listen with the ears of God that we may speak the word of. Mm. So there's a place to speak. Yeah, and I think it's really important because what we don't wanna be is we're not, you know, gerian in the way we think about counseling. We don't sit with people and ask them atomic questions, and week after week and month after month and year after year, they just pour out their hearts to us in hopes.

That they will find in their inner being mm-hmm. Through the universe. I don't know, some, some measure of truth or happiness. Like we realize there is an objective truth. Mm-hmm. And there is, the real reality is what God says is reality. Mm-hmm. Truth is his reality. And so, so often if, if a person is believing lies, if a person is struggling in certain areas, we are.

To bring truth, God's truth, not our truth, not what we say is true. What God says is true. Mm-hmm. I always say there's only one thing that matters. It really doesn't matter what you think, Alex. It really doesn't matter what I think. It doesn't matter what Malia and Zachary who are in the room with us think it really only matters what God thinks.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, in a really, really, of course, loving way and going through this process, that's what we're wanting to bring is the truth. Because it is the truth that is going to set people free. Mm. From, you know, condemnation, um, give them hope for the future. I mean, we want to make sure that we're standing in truth and that we're speaking truth to people.

Mm-hmm. And the one thing I think we need to remember is that if we are going to understand where people are believing lies or where their story is not lining up with God's story, we're going to have to ask. Good questions to get to that point, that's, we're really gonna have to understand them. You know, one of the things that, um, I think is the biggest danger to good listening and good speaking up is assuming things.

Oh yeah. We talk to people and we hear them say things and we make assumptions. Yeah. We define a word that they say Yes, and we have a different definition. And so oftentimes I have to stop people and say, okay, what do you mean by. Bipolar because I might be thinking the DSM definition and you might be thinking something completely different.

You know, what do you mean by harsh? Yeah. So I can't assume what someone is saying. I have to be willing to wait in and ask questions and, and kind of open up every part of what they're telling me. Yeah. And I know you had talked about in a, you know, maybe in the upcoming podcast we've talked about doing, listening and asking questions and really delving into those two skills with methodology.

I think that asking questions is actually the hardest part. Mm-hmm. Of meeting with people. Mm-hmm. Would you agree? Yeah, I do think it is because we can, there are, there are questions. First of all, there are a thousand different ways you can go right. With questions and so you can become completely overwhelmed.

Yes. With all the different places you can go. So there is a. Sense of what if I choose this path and I should have gone down this path? And you can kind of become paralyzed by that. Yes. And then secondly, you want the questions that you're asking to be helpful. Right. And not just to satisfy your own curiosity, because you can get drawn into a.

Person's story and be like, well, you never told me about that friend. Tell me more. Mm-hmm. And that may be great information, but it may not be helpful or pertinent mm-hmm. To what the person is bringing to you on that given day. And so you, you have a sense that, a good question takes people deeper into where they wanna go and into what they're experiencing.

Mm-hmm. Where the Holy Spirit's leading. Yes. And not where your curiosity may be taking you. Yeah. I think another thing about questions that can be hard is, You don't wanna be hurtful. Right. Um, to me, so much of like the kind of the skill of asking questions is that the question may hurt someone. Mm-hmm.

But I don't want the, the words that they're framing or the tone of the question. In other words, sometimes we ask hard questions. Mm-hmm. Because, Life is hard. Yes, problems are hard, right? Mm-hmm. But, and we can't shy away from hard questions, but at the same time, we don't wanna be harsh, I guess, instead of hard.

We don't wanna come across as harsh. Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of times we can be reticent to even ask any question then, because we don't want to be taken the wrong way. We don't wanna offend somebody, we don't wanna hurt someone. Mm-hmm. But Jesus asked really good questions and he asked pointed question.

And sometimes I've even read his questions and gone, oh, oh, you know, I would've said that like back door. Mm-hmm. You know, and he just goes straight through the front door and sometimes he goes back door too. But I, I think that's again, where we have to really rely on the Holy Spirit. Um, we're not pushing past where the Holy Spirit wants to lead someone where he's already taking them, like you said.

Mm-hmm. We're. We are trying to drive to where the Lord is leading this person. Like what is the next place of discovery and change they need or change in comfort that, that God is, that they are seeking from the Lord. And that's where we wanna take them. So I think in an upcoming podcast we'll have some more practical tools of some ways to think about asking questions and some ways, and just some specific questions to ask and maybe some things not to ask.

Mm-hmm. So one of the things. Said was, um, Jesus sometimes went through the front door and sometimes he went through the back door. And it made me think that there are, we, we, we are reading a person. If we're listening well, and we're, we're trying to figure out what they can handle. Like, how deep do they wanna go?

How much do they wanna reveal of themselves? And I think about so many of the women that we talked to have had very traumatic experiences. Mm-hmm. And so often we, we put a question out there, and a question is not a demand, you know, for information, a question is an invitation. That's right. To share more of yourself.

And so we, we say things like, um, do you feel comfortable talking a little bit more about your relationship with your mother and what that was like? You know, and so we, we, we do often, once there is deep hurt mm-hmm. Trauma and abuse, we, we have to gently. Um, explore whether someone's ready for the questions that we have, and I think that's what Proverbs is really getting at.

Okay. The, we didn't finish the verse. The purposes of a man's heart are deep waters a man of understanding draws them out. Yeah. And if we barge into places that people are not ready to go. Yeah. We are not being kind, we are not being loving and gentle as Jesus is, and we're not showing a great understanding of the depth of hurt that the person is experiencing.

So questions. A big deal. They really are. And that just takes us right back around though, because it's going to take showing up, shutting up, and then speaking up. It's like mm-hmm. It's not gonna be probably a one time conversation oftentimes. Mm-hmm. It's gonna be multiple conversations and it's gonna be sort of this, I gotta show up again.

Mm-hmm. So there's gotta be sacrifice, sacrificing commitment. I'm gonna have to shut up again. I'm gonna have to listen well, and then wisely enter in to speak up. And when you were talking about, you know, we, we start framing things in our mind. You know, to have like the argument or our points or even just to have good godly wise counsel, cuz we wanna encourage someone.

But really, like if we're gonna be true to the moment, we need to hear what somebody says. And then speak into that. Mm-hmm. You know, and I think, well, you don't know you when you meet with somebody, you're like, well, I don't know what to say. Well, right. Cuz you haven't heard 'em. Right. And I've found so often, you know, I've been, when I've read maybe over somebody's paperwork that they're coming to counseling, I'm like, I have no idea what to tell this person.

Right. Lord, I just have no idea. Like, I, I don't even understand. And then I'm just reminded well, well of course you don't, you haven't even spoken with them. Like you're trying to come up with an answer when you've not even in showed up or shut up yet. Yeah. So entering into that space and then. Just beginning to care deeply, to commit, to walk with them, to listen until we feel that same emotional, kinda like, yes, I'm understanding.

I'm hearing you. I'm feeling you. The empathy. And then lo and behold, something very supernatural happens. Alex, the Holy Spirits begins to remind me of scripture and parables, ends, narratives, and my own experience where it's appropriate. Mm-hmm. Or the experience of another person. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, making connections that you kind of then walk away and.

I couldn't have prepared it like that. Right. There's no, if I had prepared ahead of time, there's no way it would've come out like that. Like that really took just being in the moment and being in the spirit. And being in the That's right. Thank you. Being in the moment and being in the spirit. Yeah. As there's a verse in Isaiah, and I don't remember the reference, but it talks about, um, the spirit of wisdom and understanding.

Yes. And he does not judge by what? See or, or by what is ears hear. And I think about that verse so often that the spirit that I don't need to judge by what my eyes see often or what my ears hear, but what the spirit of wisdom and understanding is showing me in that moment. Mm-hmm. And like, you know, Brenda, at the end of the day, and I know you felt this way too, we wouldn't be here encouraging people to get involved in people's lives, and we wouldn't be doing the work that we were doing if we didn't wholeheartedly believe that the Holy Spirit was in charge of this because the weight.

It would be so great that I would not sleep at night. Right. Yeah, because again, we're making all these decisions of how to show up and which questions to ask, and then how to speak when it's time to speak. Like I, I say to people, I make thousands of decisions a day, and sometimes in any one counseling session or lunch with a friend, I've made a hundred decisions because my mind's going so many different places.

And if I didn't, if I couldn't lay my head on the pillow at night and say, holy Spirit, you are in charge. Like that was your work. Yeah. I, I already have trouble sleeping, but I would never sleep. Yeah. I think that's such a great point because that very same person could sit with me at lunch and the Lord, the Holy Spirit might lead me in a whole different direction.

In fact, in co-counseling, sometimes one person will meet, another person will meet and will go in different directions, but literally on the same day, the same person with the same issue could sit with you and I, and we might have a completely different conversation, but that's spirit. Right. And would be helpful to that person.

Mm-hmm. And so that's the beauty of it. It's not like a script we're trying to teach here. Right. You know, it's not like, okay, when, when this happens. But we will say this as we go along. One of our desires is to be topical. Mm-hmm. In, in some of, in some of the, the training that we wanna do. So we are gonna touch on, you know, the issues of fear and anger and depression and anxiety and idolatry and, and all these kind of issues.

Suffering issues, specific suffering issues. Um, and so it is good and wise for us to know. At least some of what, we'll never get to all of what the scripture says about these things, but to have frameworks mm-hmm. And to have some hooks. Mm-hmm. And to have some handles. Mm-hmm. That will be really simple and digestible.

Easily metabolized. So again, you can take it in for yourself and now you're able to help other people as well. Yeah. So that's one of the reasons why we wanted to do this podcast in this season, was really to say both things at the same time, to hold this intention of like, you can. Show up, shut up and speak up in someone's life.

That's right. With the knowledge you have and the Holy Spirit mm-hmm. In dwelling you, and you can learn greater skill in showing up and shutting up and speaking up. That's right. And we hope that, um, partly, uh, what we'll be able to do here is give you those resources and help, um, talk about those skills.

So living that tension. You know, it's exciting. It's scary. Yeah. It's an adventure, but it is life with the spirit. Yeah, it is. All right. Well I think that's all the time we have today, Alex. So thanks so much and we hope this has been helpful. Sometimes I think you like, there's no way that I can understand where you from.