Season 1 Episode 5

 Hi, I'm Alex. And I'm Brenda. Welcome to Conversational Counseling where counseling and discipleship meet. There's something particular about suffering that makes us ask the question why and makes us ask the question, why me? If we can't orient to the truest truth, we begin to really be tossed about. You know, I think so often we think our highest good is our goal, and our highest good is our happiness.

But God says our highest good is that we would be conformed more to the image of Christ for the glory of God.

Hi Alex. Hi Brenda. Good to be with you again. I know. Yeah. Well, I think we got a really good episode planned for today and honestly, an episode that we sat down today and we needed in this moment. Yes, yes. And the episode is about trusting God. Our, um, engineer and producer for our podcast spent some time this morning reading scripture to us mm-hmm.

And reminding us of who God is and what he has done. Um, and it was really an exercise to build our trust this morning. Right, because we come into these podcasts, this is new for us. And so there's some fear and trepidation every time they say, go, you're on. Um, but it was really sweet this morning. And you know, whether it's in a, a simple situation, in our complex situation, God's character is so important.

And so our series is these three things, and we know that there are a lot of characteristics of God that we could talk about, but why don't you. Name out the three that we're gonna talk about. Well, these three things specifically come from the book, trusting God by Jerry Bridges. And for me, this book feels like just an old friend who got me through mm-hmm.

Some really, really dark and difficult times. And so Jerry Bridges really focuses on the sovereignty of God, the wisdom of God, and the love of God. Mm-hmm. And so we're gonna talk about, Um, as the three things that give us handholds or footholds a, a firm foundation under our feet when we are struggling with sin or with suffering.

Yeah. It's so good. It actually reminds me of, I love This Is Us. Mm-hmm. And, um, Paul and I watch it and we just saw the last episode and, um, I remember, I can't remember character's names, but. Um, the, the one, the one character is talking about how most people think a triangle is the strongest, uh, um, shape. A square.

He says square. I'm sorry, a square. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A square is the strongest shape, but in reality, a triangle. Triangle is the strongest shape. And so, um, one of the ways we like to look at this or draw this, and we'll have a little drawing in our show notes is these form a triangle, right? And these three attributes alone are just so incredibly powerful and give us.

Strength and allow us to anchor our soul into some characteristics of God. Mm-hmm. You know, the Bible can be, again, very overwhelming, and even as we look at who God is and what he has done, it can seem really, really overwhelming. Right. But to your point, we just want to have three things. Some handles like if you can wrap your mind and your heart around these three characteristics of God, not only.

Can they help you as you're walking through the struggles of life? But when you're thinking, Ugh, how can I help someone else? Like, what, what is it? Do I know anything about God? That would be helpful, right? Like, is there anything that I can share? Well, now we're gonna hand you these three things and, um, to remember, and um, you know, we need to have a foundation for trust.

So let's talk a little bit about that. Why is knowing God and trusting God so linked together? Well, I think when, when struggles, when suffering, when sin hits us, we feel disoriented. And like you said, it's hard to find truth. And um, I think the enemy moves in so quickly tempting us to believe the very same lies that he tempted Eve with.

Is God really who he says he is? Mm-hmm. Did he really say what he said? And so we go to those places so quickly. There's so. Particular about suffering that makes us ask the question why. Mm-hmm. And makes us ask the question, why me? Mm-hmm. And if we cannot orient into something that is always true, uh, a woman in our church always says true truth.

The truest truth and the character of God is the truest truth. If we can't orient to the truest truth, we begin to really be tossed about by all of the questions that come with our struggles. Yeah. And if we don't really know, The person we're trusting. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, a simple, just a simple thing I think about is if I needed, you know, open heart surgery, I would wanna know that the surgeon has experience, right?

He's done this a few times he's been to med school, um, because I'm not gonna submit myself. To that procedure. If I don't know that about him, I'm not gonna trust him if I don't know that about him. Right. And so this whole idea of trusting God is linked to knowing God. Mm-hmm. And we also know, cuz we've lived long enough that we know God from His word, but we also know God experientially.

Mm-hmm. As we see. See his character demonstrated in our life and in our circumstances and in our heart. Um, we begin to internalize more and more trust because we have a knowing from his word and we experience this knowing as we go along. Yeah, that's really good. And Voskamp says, peace comes to us in the person of Christ and we are really saying truth.

Comes to us in the person of Christ. And so as we know him, we know peace. We know his peace, we know his truth, and we're oriented back to who he is in the midst of a lot of disorienting circumstances. And so the thing I love about this paradigm, these three things of sovereignty, wisdom, and love, is it helps give us a, a feeling like, like we said, a foundation under our feet, but it also.

Um, to orient us to the person of Christ, and we begin to have an expectation that he's gonna show himself as this in our lives. Mm. Oh, I like that. Mm-hmm. That's really powerful and that gives us hope. Mm-hmm. That really is what gives us hope. And when we are in the middle of suffering or in a sin struggle, man, we need hope.

We need hope. Mm-hmm. We need hope because oftentimes those things are not going to go. Right. Quickly. Mm-hmm. Whatever the struggle is. Well, let's break these down a little bit and just, um, before we do, I, I wanna mention one quote by AW Tozer that I think is so good. He says, what comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us.

Mm mm-hmm. Um, great theologian and I mean, I think that, We need to contemplate that. I think for every one of us listening, like we do come to our Christian faith with an image mm-hmm. Of who we think God is. Mm-hmm. And we make God in our image, in fact, right. We're made in his image, but then we turn around and so much of that, maybe we just take a few minutes to, to talk about some of the distortions and how is it that we get to the place that we don't even know who God is.

Mm-hmm. So I was thinking like, you know, we counsel people who their fathers have not been, you know, really good fathers, and that's probably one of the biggest ones we see. Um, or just a lack of knowledge, right? They just don't have any understanding of the scriptures, right? So, or, um, maybe they've been taught in a certain denomination, a certain view of God that there was just a wrong view of God, right?

So again, we come back to this like biblical Christianity. Looking at God is who God is in the scriptures and us developing a proper knowledge of who God is. So we will have a pop, uh, proper trust. And then Tozer is saying, say the last part again, Brenda. Um, it's the most important thing. Important thing about us.

About us. Yeah. Which is so interesting because it's not the most important thing about God because what we think of him is not gonna change who he is. Exactly. But it's the most important thing about us because it's going to be our lived experience. It's going to be, the expression of our lives is going to flow out of what we believe about who he is.

That's right. And we can see that in our own lives and in the lives of women we meet with is. You know, their view of God is going to absolutely direct. Mm-hmm. How they move forward in their life. And what's so hard, even as we're saying this, it sounds like we, we come to this place and we listen to this podcast about these three wonderful, these, and we make this decision that God is sovereign and God is wise and God is loving.

And then we decide that, and we stand in that and we live out of it. But we know it is truly a moment by. Reorientation to truth, especially when we're suffering. Yeah. And I think that's really, you know, a great place just to bring up spiritual warfare. Mm-hmm. Um, because the enemy wants us to doubt God's character.

He wants us to doubt his word, he wants us to doubt his works. And so there is a constant battle, uh, between, you know, our flesh and the world and the devil to believe lies. Mm-hmm. To live by these lies or to believe God is really who he says he is. Mm-hmm. And the other thing that's really hard about this is like, God.

Big, colossal, great. Mm-hmm. Infinite, you know? And so, you know, and we're finite, so it's really hard for us a lot of times to wrap our minds around just these three qualities that we're gonna talk about, right? Like they're other worldly, they're God is, God is completely set apart. And so for us and our humanness to even begin to comprehend, um, and we can really only.

At all through the power of the Holy Spirit and the illumination of the Spirit as he sheds God's love abroad in our hearts as he sheds and illuminates truth in our hearts. Yeah. I'm glad you said that because as we go into trying to define these, I think we do just need to make our disclaimer very clear.

We are not going to be able to capture the essence of God's sovereignty, wisdom, and love in. Few moments. We just wanna be able to put some language to it so it's helpful for our own hearts and helpful as we walk alongside others. Yeah. Well, let's talk about what sovereignty means in reality. How would we define that?

So we say that, you know, this is God's complete sovereignty. This is his absolute rule. Over all of creation. And, uh, one thing I love about Jerry Bridge's book is he breaks that down into so many things, over nature, over people, over circumstances, all these things. And so what, what that. The, the comfort that gives me God's sovereignty can seem like a cold attribute of his.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When we think of rule, we don't think of curling up on his lap. Right. Yeah. But wh where it brings comfort is to realize that in the midst, Of confusing and difficult circumstances in our own hearts and in our lives. There's not randomness. Yes. Like we are not being tossed about by the whims of like the, the Greeks of the god's.

Little Gs like Yeah. Their whims ruled their lives. Yeah. We are being ruled by a sovereign God who has a plan and is carrying out his plan. Yeah. I like another theologian, RC Sproll says, um, there's not one maverick molecule in the. And if there is, there's someone or something out there greater than God.

Mm-hmm. And that's not true. I like what you're saying about there not being randomness, um, or there's not a disorder. Cuz if we think about it with God, there's no chance. Mm-hmm. Um, like you said, there's no randomness. Um, and there's not even the possibility that, you know, human free will. Can undo or, um, yeah, I guess undo or get ahead of what God has planned.

But can we talk about that for just a minute because Yeah. Well, my children are waiting for me to say this if they're ever listened to this podcast, because I say so many times to them, you are not powerful enough. To make this happen if God doesn't want it, and you are not powerful enough to stop this from happening if he does.

Yeah. So we know we tried out for the volleyball team and we wanna make it, and they're just stressed about whether they're gonna make it. And I'm like, right now it's completely, and the Lord's saying like, you're not powerful enough to put yourself on that team if he doesn't want you there, and you're not powerful enough to take yourself.

That's what he has for you. That's right. So there's just no comfort in knowing that you're resting in his plan and purpose. And then for me, in my own life, Brenda, I mean in a daily struggle with pain, there's also this sense of comfort that came when I, I, I would torture myself over saying, okay, what did I eat yesterday?

What did I do? And back to that, you know, I wasn't powerful enough to stop this. But it was also a reminder every day, like with one word, He could stop it if he chose to and if he was choosing not to, he had a reason for it. Yeah. I find that same dynamic really at work with, you know, the son that we've had that has struggled for 10 years with addiction issues and even going back to, well, Lord, if we just put him in this school.

Mm-hmm. If we had just not let him, you know, if we just had this friend. Right. If I had not said this at that time, you know, we can look at God's sovereignty. In our past or in our present, and it gives us a lot of comfort. Mm-hmm. Because we can see throughout the scriptures how God uses. The, even the sin of men, right?

I e the cross, right? Yeah. That God ordained for Jesus. You know, the greatest good God ordained that Jesus would die on a cross, but he used, you know, the free will and human responsibility of men. And I love our pastor says, you know, people ask me about God's sovereignty and, and man's responsibility, and do I believe in God's sovereignty?

You know, his absolute rule? Yes. Do I believe in, you know, man's respons? Yes. Yes. And then we always say these are two parallel lines mm-hmm. That we're just never gonna understand. Mm-hmm. But at the end of the day, we do take comfort that there is a God who is in absolute control. And I love what Johnny Erickson taught, who was the mm-hmm.

Um, beautiful woman who has done a lot of ministry with, um, people with disabilities, but she was in a, um, a diving accident, I think when she was 16 or 17, was paralyzed. Mm-hmm. And, um, she says sometimes God allows what he hates to accomplish what he loves. Yes. And um, and so, you know, again, when we think about the sovereignty of God, it is beyond our comprehension.

But we can trust that God is ruling and if he is ruling, um, and we can trust that he's ruling with wisdom and love. And this is why I think these other attributes are so important cause right, you're right. If he's just a ruler, And there's no wisdom and love, then he is scary, right? He, he is only to be feared.

Um, but let's talk about his wisdom for a minute. When we talk about God's wisdom, um, what are we saying here? It's that God has the highest good in mind and he's choosing the best way. So we, we sometimes distinguish knowledge and wisdom as wisdom is knowing how to use knowledge and apply it in the best way.

He's always choosing, um, he's always moving towards the way that makes the most sense. That is the, I keep going back to the word wise. I can't get around it. The wisest way. Mm-hmm. Right? I mean, what's wiser than Wise. Wise is fine. Yeah. Wiser than wise. Yeah. So, you know, even God's means, I think is what we're saying.

Have meaning. That's good. Mm-hmm. Right. That again, there's not a randomness that's tweetable brand. Ooh, let's go. Ooh. Somebody tweet that. What? What is a tweet? I don't know. I dunno how to do that. May I need to get a Twitter? I don't even have one. I dunno. And what was it you said? Cause I already forgot. I don't know.

Remember you telling my daughter who's in her twenties last night that we were trying to really remember, we were like, we are really trying to remember people in their twenties as we're doing this. I think we just blew our cover. Alex totally blew our cover. Darn it. Um, alright, well back to the wisdom of God and, um, Yeah.

That God, you know, God has the highest good and the highest goal in mind. And, and I'm, you know, I was just thinking about when I moved to Chattanooga five and a half years ago, um, I left Montgomery where you and I ministered together and had just walked life and known each other for a long time. And I, I knew that the Lord still wanted me to counsel.

I knew I'd still be doing counseling training, but I didn't know anybody here. Mm-hmm. And nobody knew me. Mm-hmm. And I was like, Lord, I have no idea how this is gonna work out. Nobody knows me. Nobody knows this is what I do. I'm in a town and I have, you know, 20 years of experience, but what am I gonna do with it?

And I'll just never forget, just like the Holy Spirit just whispering to me like, Brenda, I know you and I know my people and I know how to get my people mm-hmm. Together to accomplish my purposes. And so in the wisdom of God, it seemed really crazy to me, right? That if I was gonna continue a ministry that I felt like the Lord had given me.

Dropped me in a town that I didn't know anybody. Right. Um, and then just to see how that was really the catalyst for you and I to really connect over known ministries. Mm-hmm. And then the Lord brought us to where we met Malia, who does all of our directing for us, and she's introduced us to all these other wonderful people.

And so we just see, again, that didn't look wise to me and the beginning, but God had a goal in mind. He had an end in mind and he knew how to accomplish it Right. In a way that I could not. Yeah. I think that's really good and it's helpful when we are. See it and it's a grace when he lets us see it. Yeah.

But then there are times where yeah, we have to trust the wisdom of God even when he doesn't show us what he's accomplishing. Yeah. When we don't see the goal. Yes. Yeah. So, um, I've always thought that, you know, I could really start ministering to people when I had, when my son's issues were all wrapped up nice and tidy in a bow.

Exactly. And then I could have a ministry. Mm-hmm. And you know, again, 10 years into it, it's not all wrapped up, tidy, nice. And a bow. And so, A bo a bowl. I was like, God, where are you going? What's the goal here? Right. Right. And, and I've, I, I discourage people from trying to find that goal, right? Like if this, if the Holy Spirit reveals it to you, you can see it, celebrate it and thank him for it.

But I remembered dealing with pain and being in the bed, and I've got these two young children and I'm thinking about all the things I can't do for them. Them. And I remember laying in the bed and deciding, um, this is gonna make my children nurturing. And compassionate and caring. Yes. And like, okay, Lord, I'm gonna suffer so my children can have this character.

And what happens the first time they fight with each other? They're selfish, uncaring, and unfeel. Now my whole paradigm Yeah. For meaning and suffering is shattered based on my four and six year old's behavior. Right. Yeah. Because my goal Yeah. Was clear to me. Yeah. And so it's, you know, I do caution people in the midst of struggle to be really careful with deciding what God is doing.

Yes. That's a great point. Because it's not our goal, it's his goal, and he is typically working in so many ways that we don't understand and we don't see. And really and truly it is a lot of times down the road that we can look back and reflect. That's exactly what I was thinking. Looking back, yes. I see so much of what he kept me from.

I see that broken legged sheep that he kept close to him and ways that he spared me from wondering. But in the midst, right? If we choose to, to, to figure out, yeah. God's mind. We are probably setting ourselves up for a lot of. Yeah, and it's funny cuz even in that instant, not only were you having goals for yourself, but then you start playing God to have goals for other people.

Oh wow. I'm very good at that front time. I'll be God, and I'll have goals for you. I have a Junior Holy Spirit button.

Oh, okay. Well, I think this whole idea of what is God doing in his ultimate goal for us, Alex is really expressed in his perfect love. Yes. Without this, The rest are going to seem cold, distant, um, unfeeling. And so we have to go back to the love of God for us. His perfect love that he is always striving for our good.

Yeah, and then all the different ways that his love is manifest. To us that, that he is using the most gentle means possible. Yes. To bring us to himself. Yeah. And draw us closer to him. And so, yes. Without his love, without the fatherly, uh, and again, father can be hard without the shepherd. Right. The intentional, caring, nurturing, um, aspect of God.

We, these can feel cold. These can. Hard. Yeah. Well, I just think about his unconditional commitment to our highest good. Mm-hmm. And um, you know, I think so often we think our highest good is our goal and our highest good is our happiness. Mm-hmm. Um, but God says our highest good is that we would be conformed more to the image of Christ for the glory of God.

And um, you know, there've been so many times along the way, as we've made, had to make decisions with our child about do we step in? Do we not step in? Mm-hmm. I've just thought God, Is a far better parent than I am because he is actually willing mm-hmm. To let me be disciplined, to let me suffer, um, because he has a higher good.

In mind. Mm-hmm. And it takes a lot of love. Mm-hmm. If you love somebody who's really struggling and just, particularly if you're loving somebody with an addiction issue, right. Um, you know, it takes a lot of love to know when to let somebody feel the consequences of their choices and to allow them to feel that, not because you're punishing them, but because you want to.

Them to be restored. Mm-hmm. And I see the same perfect working. Um, the same, the same perfect love working out in such a beautiful way and in such a better way. Like God is the better parent mm-hmm. Than I am. Mm-hmm. Because for me, it's all about me. I don't wanna hurt this much, so I'm not gonna let them hurt this much.

Right. God actually said, I'm gonna hurt even more cause I'm gonna send my son to the cross. Right for you? Mm-hmm. Like, I'm gonna lay it all down. I'm gonna have the ultimate pain this week or last week. Somebody said, John three 16. I heard it my whole life and for the first time I heard the emphasis on. A different part and instead of the emphasis being on Christ, I heard it on God.

For God. Yeah. So loved the world that he gave his only son. I always heard he gave mm-hmm. He gave, yeah, he gave his son. Yeah. But it, it originated in the heart of God. Yeah. That was so comforting because we can tend to think of God as the distant part of the Trinity, I think. Yeah. And to remember that, um, God loved and he gave God loved and he sacrificed.

Yeah. And then of course we see the love of God incarnated in the life of Christ. And the way that he sacrificed for us. And that I think that again, is just so orienting for us to remember that love is sacrificed. And so we go back to that, you know, God, um, the Romans verse, um, God who willingly. Gave up his son for us.

Will he not also willingly give us all good things? Yeah. Like he's demonstrated his love for us and he's gonna continue to demonstrate it. And, um, that's been an orienting question for me. Will he not also give me all good things? Mm. Oh, that's so good. I don't even really know if there's any place else we need to go here.

Um, well, one thing I will say, o one thing practically that helps me orient to the love of God is to think about what I am struggling with, um, what I am desperately wanting. In my sin that Christ willingly gave up. Mm-hmm. Or what I desperately don't want in my suffering mm-hmm. That Christ willingly endured.

Mm-hmm. And to make it specific. Yeah. Yeah. So if I am struggling in a place of uncertainty mm-hmm. Which there is some uncertainty in all of our lives right now, and I'm struggling with uncertainty, I remember that Christ willingly walked into uncertainty. Mm-hmm. And he allowed his life to be in the hands of men who reviled him.

And he gave that over, he gave into that. And so, and then from the flip side, something that I want so badly, like I want comfort in this moment and I see him willing to give up all comforts of heaven. Mm-hmm. To come and love me. So that helps orient me to the love of God to go there in the particular.

Mm-hmm. And not just the broad, he sacrificed for me, let's talk about exactly what he sacrificed. Yeah. And I like that. And I know you often take this a step further, as I've heard you say, but even. He walked in uncertainty. So you could have a certainty Right, right. Of knowing that you are loved by God and that the story ends well.

Right. Regardless of where you are in the story. Mm-hmm. Um, one of our pastors says, um, it's gonna be if everything's gonna be okay in the end, and if it's not okay, then it's not the end yet. Right. Not the end. Mm-hmm. And um, and then this idea of comfort too, that he gave up comfort to assure that you. Have comfort and that could eternal comfort be comforted now.

Mm-hmm. And that you would have that eternal comfort, right? Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I think that's so good. I think we've got one caution. Are we ready to talk about Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I almost forgot. So, uh, ed Welch is a counselor at Biblical counselor from uh, Westminster Seminary. I really admire.

Mm-hmm. And this concept has been challenging and really, um, guiding for me over the years. And, and I think it really comes to play, especially when we talk about the character of God, because we can really, um, talk to people in their struggles and kind of slap these on 'em Yes. In a really compassionate way.

Mm-hmm. And so what Ed Welch says is, is that he wouldn't give anything for the simplistic. But he would give everything for the simple that comes on the other side of the complex. So I'm gonna unpack that. Yeah. I unpack that for, so we can, in a very simplistic way, say to someone, honey, you know, God is sovereign, like he's in control.

He knows what's gonna happen with your son. Mm-hmm. And if I don't know much of your story, if I haven't walked and I haven't allowed myself to be touched by your pain and the complexity of your story, that's gonna. Harsh. Mm-hmm. A little bit condescending, frankly. Mm-hmm. And unhelpful. Right. But when I am willing to walk into the complexity of what it means to struggle with a prodigal son, and I'm willing to, this is what I say, if I don't feel it in my gut.

Then I need to be quiet. Yeah. But when I can actually feel in my gut what your struggle is, then I'm ready to move into the simple truth of his sovereignty, his wisdom, his love, or they may be others. But what's so interesting and often so confusing, Brenda, is the simplistic and the simple can look exactly the same.

Mm-hmm. But if you've been slapped with a simplistic mm-hmm. You know, it feels completely different. Absolutely. I know I have. Yes. And unfortunately, I think we all, I know I've done that to people too. Exactly. Exactly. More than I'd like to admit. And maybe particularly early on. Yes. You know, in just talking to people and being, uh, too quick to give answers because I think I'm an exhorter mm-hmm.

By gifting. And so I just want you to feel. Right. And so if I could give you a Bible verse and a truth and slap it on you. Yes. Um, and I know my husband has, you know, fondly, uh, teased me and a little bit admonished me. Like Brendan, nobody wants a cheerleader at a funeral. Oh, oh. You know, show up with my pompoms and, and my megaphone and uhhuh, you know, as you're putting your son, your daughter, whoever, your husband, you know, in the ground.

Mm-hmm. And so that has been, that was a real dy shift for me just to realize like we. We struggle with this and we're gonna be talking a lot more about empathy. Mm-hmm. But I like what you're saying. You know, the Bible calls that feeling in your gut. The bowels of mercy. The bowels, the bowels of mercy.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, um, I like that. Like waiting. Do we feel that? Do we feel the pain? Well, then we come with these truths. Mm-hmm. Um, and even then we come wisely. We come winsomely. Right. We come with timing and we come with the Holy Spirit's guidance. I just, I keep wanna coming, come back to the Holy Spirit because, Truth, you know, for us just to have truth and even just to have relationship with somebody without the guidance of the Holy Spirit to prepare my heart and to prepare your heart something, something supernatural cannot take place.

Mm-hmm. If he's not operating, somebody turned that into a verb. Have you ever heard that and said, I've been truth. Oh, I like it. I've been truth. That's not a good thing. Oh, oh, that's a bad thing. I'm sorry. I just now got it a little slow Sometimes I've been truth. Yeah. Like that slapped on me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've not been. And truth. Yeah. I've just been truth. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so would, yeah. That idea that, um, I've, I've been, I've been given the gra I've been given the truth without any of the compassion. Without, yeah. Again, without the complexity. Yeah. And that's why I say like, we gotta feel it in our gut.

We gotta know. And, and we may not even realize how different our posture, our tone. Mm-hmm. And even our words come out when we have walked in that when we're, yeah. We allow. Allowing ourselves to be touched by someone else's suffering. Yeah. But it is different. Yeah. And we know it when we're on the other side, when we're experiencing it from someone.

Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. All right, Alex, well I think we need to wrap this up and, um, I don't know, go get a cup of coffee, maybe enjoy our visit while you're here in Chattanooga a little bit more. But, um, yeah, we hope these will be great handles. Um, and we said we wanted to mention one thing. This, a lot of the, these concepts are really fleshed out well in Jerry Bridge's book, trusting God, and several years ago, and probably many now, he came out with a workbook to go along with it.

Yeah. And I love to use the workbook because all of the scripture that's in the book, The workbook just forces you to look those up, write those out, and it can become a really helpful exercise to make you interact with these scripture verses. Yeah, so the workbook's really helpful. Some, some books that don't always love it, but in this one in particular, I love the workbook.

Yeah. And I think it just speaks to the fact you can't know someone you don't spend time with. Mm-hmm. And so we spend time with God through prayer, through his word. And, um, so yeah, we gotta, we gotta do, we gotta do that work. And hopefully this is helpful again, because when we're struggling, when we're suffering, we need simple things.

Yeah. We, we, you know, we don't hand someone a book on grieving that's four inches thick. Yeah. Right. We wanna, we wanna just give, and so as we develop this as foundational in our own hearts mm-hmm. We're able to just. Simply communicate that to others. Yeah. And don't you think, Alex, this would be a great plug for getting together with someone else or getting together with a small group Like we know we learn best in community and people coming together, working on a book like this, bringing their own struggles.

Mm-hmm. It will not only. Teach them this information, but it will minister to their hearts. It will help them in that context to know how to minister to somebody else's heart. Mm-hmm. And, uh, yeah, I think it could just be really beautiful. So maybe there's some folks that are listening that can grab the workbook and grab a few friends that they know.

I mean, maybe they know one other person who's struggling, maybe, I don't know. Mm-hmm. Giving homework. That's right. I was give some homework. So, all right, well, we're just gonna call that a wrap then. Thanks so much.