Season 1 Bonus

 Hi, I'm Alex. And I'm Brenda. Welcome to Conversational Counseling or Counseling and Discipleship Meet. We are really just saying that every single thing we've learned, everything we've learned is useful in your family, with your friends, at your work, with your neighbors. And at your church, we can't think of anything better than handing our tools off to other people and seeing this multiplied.

I mean, that's what kingdom work is.

Brenda, Alex, we're podcasting. Wow. How did we get here? It does feel like a blur. It does, but it's good because we believe God has brought us to this point and, um, we are really doing our episodes this season that we're putting together. We are calling these three things because what we want to do again is to make the podcast and the information very digestible.

Easy to metabolize, and that way it can be worked into our own system and then worked out into our daily lives as we minister to other people that God puts in our path and, and because we know three is a holy number and yeah. Thank you. So it has to be three. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, Um, and for me, three is just an easy number.

If I get beyond three things, usually I can't remember the fourth. True, that's true. It's the real reason. It's the real reason. Um, but today we wanna talk about a framework that, uh, we call saints sufferer and center. And so why don't you tell us a little bit, even just about where that comes from. I hope I call it Saint Suffering Center every time.

Cuz I'll start moving 'em all around. It'll be, that's gonna be confusing. But we are gonna talk about all three of these. And, um, I just wanna start off with saying why it's important to me. Okay. I think it's been, I remember when I was taking a class, and I think it was Mike Emett who first taught me this, and he's recently wrote a book about it, but, um, It really was a paradigm shifting for me, and it's so simple, and yet it was so profound.

And the reason it was profound is because I think a lot of our early training in biblical counseling tended to focus on the person as a sinner. Yes. And so we've been accused of going on a sin hunt. Yeah. We've been accused of, you know, concordance count. Okay. Is that the right word? Concordance counseling where we just, um, flip to the back of the book on of the Bible on anger and find those verses and take those and call me in the morning.

Mm-hmm. And so this really did become the first probably framework or paradigm that allowed me to see the whole person. Mm-hmm. And it really resonated with me because I don't wanna just be viewed as a sinner. That's right. And I tended to, uh, uh, as the older brother, I tended to only view myself as a sinner.

And so to re. That I am simultaneously a saint and a sinner and a sufferer was really freeing for me personally, and that opened up a whole body of truth. It opens up God's word in just a whole different way for me. Yeah, that's good. It's interesting because with the same experience and background of being heavy sin oriented in the beginning of just our training, um, for you it was more of a self-righteousness kind of if you looked at like looking for the sin.

Mm-hmm. I think for me, There was a lot of condemnation because of the sin I was bringing in. Yeah. So then it just always made me feel defeated and condemned as I was looking at my sin that I was bringing into my faith. Right. But, um, well, let's take these one at a time and let's just break them down because again, what we're trying to communicate is that if you can.

As a listener, grasp these three hooks. Mm-hmm. That form a little bit of a framework. Then when you begin to engage with someone, you've got some categories of thinking about them, asking them questions, drawing them out, information that may be important. Um, so let's just talk about the first one. Why is it important that, uh, we.

We look at somebody in the category of Saint. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, the category of Saint, again, is so orienting because it is the one I think that we're so quick to forget because our earthly struggle here is against sin and suffering. And so we can forget the promises of God, the character of God that's applied to us through Christ, and we can just forget the riches that we have in Jesus.

And so it's so orienting to me. Self. And then when I'm sitting with another person to recognize that they need to be connected to the hope that they have in Christ and the truth that in him, they are saints, they're forgiven, they're loved. And so, um, that just again, opens up the whole of scripture to me because now this is not just God's story, it's my story too.

And I'm able to approach that person or even approach my own heart with hope, with encouragement. With, um, a big view of God and the church. Like I'm not just a saint by myself, I'm a saint with all the other saints. Mm-hmm. Um, present and past and future. So it's just a, it, it just opens up my perspective.

That will all preach. That was awesome. Okay. Cut. We're done. No, that's really, really beautiful. I think it is. So orienting. And the other thing is, I think when we enter in with someone, um, you know that what if they're not a saint? Mm. You know what, if they've not come to saving faith, um, that's gonna look different.

Our starting point is going to look different. The information we give them is going to look differently. How much information we give them. Um, if we give them any information at all, it may be very relational to begin with if we're in an evangelistic setting. So I think as we're sort of evaluating, I think also as we're looking at the same, through the lens of, is this, um, you know, and this speaks into say, uh, suffering and sinner, but you know, is this somebody who's weak?

Mm-hmm. Is this somebody who's rebellious? Mm-hmm. Is this somebody who needs encouragement and hope, or is this somebody who needs admonishment? And so I think as we look at the person, We are going to be oriented if we, if we can get a feel for where are, where are they in their relationship with the Lord.

Um, a lot of times we wanna really focus on people's problems, right? Which we do need to understand their problems. And that's, I mean, they're coming and we're trying to help them. But so often the beginning place needs to be is really understanding who is God to them, right? Who is this? You know who I mean?

The God of the Bible is not always the God who we worship, right? Right. Oftentimes, we have a God of our own making, and so really we do wanna understand people's faith and what they're, what kind of views about God are they bringing into their suffer? Sending, um, what kind of understanding that they have of the scriptures, uh, that they can immediately begin to access to experience the kind of hope and help that biblical counseling and that Jesus wants to supply them.

Mm-hmm. You know, when you're saying that, Brenda's reminded me that so often when someone comes in my office, they know they're coming in for biblical counseling, but I, I don't know what that means to them. And so what, what I'm trying to do is exactly what you said, get a gauge on what their relationship with the Lord is like.

Their understanding of the scripture is, and again, it's not for me to judge whether someone's a believer or not. Oftentimes. Probably more often than not, I talk to someone as if they are a believer from the get-go. And we, we are in a culture that's very spiritualized. And then specifically where I am, um, in Montgomery, it's the b the buckle of the Bible belt.

So people have a lot of religious language. I talk to them as if they are a believer right from the get-go and still try to, um, ask discerning questions for them to really come to understand their own hearts. But I think. For me. I don't know how you feel about that. You can disagree. We can, we can go ahead and disagree.

Right. But that, that approach then helps me to pull out and I think it, it, it keeps me from coming at them from a, um, you have to prove your spirituality to me. You have to prove, you know, I don't, I don't want anyone to feel that way. Yeah. Well, and I think in our. Too. And I think in a lot of context, in relationship, we are already gonna have a feel if somebody knows Jesus, if they're following Jesus, if they have any understanding of the word or any, uh, dependency on the spirit.

Um, and a lot of the times the people we're interacting with, they're coming, like you said, they know this is mm-hmm. This is going to be biblical and we've already. And we've got the cheat sheet on 'em cuz they filled out a form and we already know a little bit about their answers. Um, and again, I, I like what you're saying.

We, when you're interacting in, you know, just getting together with people and making yourself available to meet with people, this isn't an interrogation to sit down. We want them to feel comfortable. And to your point, if somebody has given me a profession of faith mm-hmm. Then I'm going to stand on. I'm gonna accept that profession of faith and I'm gonna move forward in counseling them and really giving them the assurance then of God's promises.

Because what I have found on more than one occasion, and I'm sure you have two alexes though, people will come and, and, and again, this could be in my home as I've done discipleship in my home or Bible studies or you know, in the church in a more professional counseling setting. But um, somewhere along the way somebody will come in and be.

Wow. I think I just met Jesus. Mm-hmm. Wow. The word of God just came alive to me. Wow. Something has changed. Right. And the Holy Spirit has just done a work really, they, they're recognizing they have just now come to saving faith. Mm-hmm. And, um, and so it's beautiful, like the Holy Spirit is gonna do that work.

I think that's what we're trying to say is we don't have to. Um, you know, make sure that you know all your, you know, that you can, I dunno, draw out the, the diagrams and know the Romans throne, say the center prayer. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And all of that. Mm-hmm. For us to be assured, like if you, if you're meeting with somebody and they are telling you they're a Christian, then go with that.

Right. And then over time, the Holy Spirit, he will make it clear to them. Because the truth is I have days when I woke up and think, wow, I just meant Jesus. Right. I mean that, I hope I always have those moments. Yeah. So yeah, I think it, the, the biggest caution there with, um, this tool is just recognizing like, we don't have to judge this.

It's not our place to judge it's, and that the gospel, we need to be connected to the gospel, whether it's for the first time or. 1253rd time that, that's right. Like we need to be connected to the gospel and our, and because our counseling is going to be very gospel centric, very Christ oriented. Mm-hmm.

It's not just gonna be giving somebody, you know, do these three things and then come back and see me next week. I mean, it's going to be rooted in the personal work of Christ. So they're gonna get gospel all the time. All the time. Mm-hmm. So how, so let's talk then about suffer. Yeah. How is it that viewing somebody in the framework of not just a sinner, but a sufferer is helpful?

Mm. Well, I mean, it just orients me back to the grand narrative, to the big story of God's word. That we were created for something, we were created for this life and this beauty and connection, and that in the fall it was twisted and marred and, and in many times, in many ways, taken away. And that. After the fall is hard.

Yeah. And, and it's never been more true than it is right now. Um, for, for our generation, I think coming, hopefully coming out of a pandemic. But we really know that life is hard, life is suffering and, um, to not. Uh, meet somebody in that place and to only focus on what they need to change about themselves instead of coming alongside them and say, wow, I see why this would be a struggle.

Wow. I see how this is particularly hard for you to really give that empathy. We're gonna miss the person completely. Yeah. And we're also gonna miss such a beautiful aspect of our savior. Mm-hmm. Because Jesus didn't come just to change us. He came to comfort us. That's so good. Mm-hmm. And so, if. If we don't recognize somebody's suffering and we don't bring to them the comfort of Christ, they are just going.

Really, we're doing them such a disservice in their understanding of walking with Jesus and who he is. And honestly, there's just some things that we can only learn about God through suffering. Mm-hmm. Um, I know that I've shared before, I've been in a pretty intense season for a decade with one of my children who's a pro, been a prodigal and had struggles and there are just things in that 10 years that have been so painful.

Mm-hmm. Um, but in that pain, I have learned things about Jesus. I would've never learned other. Um, yeah. I find Brenda, I don't know if you find this, but as I talk to people who've been raised in the church, I have to wrestle them to the concept of themselves as a sufferer. Yes. Yeah. They are more comfortable being oriented to themselves as a sinner.

Yeah. They, they can tell you what their sin is. I think about, it's so interesting, this one lady that I met with, Came in and was really talking about the difficulty she had relating to people, and she was very self-protective and very defensive. And just to your point, man, she was just naming off all of her sin.

And so really and truly, like she was so good at it, I didn't even really explore her suffering. Mm-hmm. I was like, oh, she really knows what the problem is. Let's just jump in. Mm-hmm. Well, it took quite a bit of time for me to then backtrack and go back to her story and realize that she was raised in an abusive home.

Mm. And so her suffering story was significant. Right. But it was just so interesting to me that in those first few meetings she never mentioned it. And when she did, it just seemed like it, you know, just her family of origin didn't seem like a big deal. Mm-hmm. And I know that, you know, one of the places that I've really grown as I've matured in my Christian walk is to actually look for the entrance into the suffering story.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And um, and I think particularly when we're talking about unbelievers or, uh, young Christians or just. Christians like discourage people. Right. Um, I think when we can really take a step back and say, where is the suffering story here? Oh my goodness. Like that's where we are inviting them.

For comfort is what they really need. Right. And they want to accept that invitation. Mm-hmm. But you know, if I'm all bloodied up and I come to your house and you say, here, take this, you know, I'm gonna put armor on you and go make you a warrior. And you're like, I need a hospital bed. Right. And some medicine and a nurse and a good meal.

Um, we just have to really know like, Who's the person in front of us and what has really impacted them. And, and so we know that suffering doesn't excuse our sinfulness. Right, right. Yeah. No, it's not that. It's that we are willing to recognize that, um, often our sinfulness is informed or propelled or Yeah.

Um, by our suffering. And that when we just wanna bootstrap it up and change ourselves, um, and put on a new, a new habit and not really deal with some of those underlying. Causes or hurts that inform that suffering. We really, um, I mean, I, I think we really cripple people in their fight against sin. And we, again, to your point, like we miss Jesus as in the gentleness Yeah.

Um, of who he was and the way he interacted with people. And I, one of the, one of the other reasons I love. Um, being able to view someone as a sufferer is it, it gives me a whole different set of tools to encourage them with. One of 'em is lament, like just to really push them to the psalms, to push them to a place where they're not alone, where God invites them to come to him in their suffering.

They don't have to get it cleaned up and pretty and looking nice to go to him. Like here we have the Psalms and we have all these examples of. Of a person pouring out their heart before the Lord. And it is not pretty. It is often angry. It's despairing, it's confused and um, it's questioning and that the Lord invites that and he allows us to come to him that way.

And so what better fight against sin than to know we can come to God. Hurting and real and raw, and he loves us there. Now I have a whole new motivation to wanna please him. I have the right motivation to wanna please him. Yeah. And and the reality too is our sin creates a lot of suffering. Mm-hmm. And so often I'm, I guess I'm not shocked cuz I think I had the same mindset, but it felt really uncomfortable to come to God.

In that raw, in real way of the psalmist. Mm-hmm. Um, as a sufferer, whether I was sinned against or whether it was my own sin that was creating the suffering. And I think that's another aspect of looking at somebody as a sinner. I think we can really jump on to like, you've sinned and that was bad. Right?

Instead of like, wow, this, this has been costly to you. Mm-hmm. This has been hurtful. Tell me how, tell me how your sin has impacted you. How has it impacted your relationships? How has it impacted your health? How has it impacted your walk with Jesus? Because again, there's a suffering story in every sin story, right?

Mm-hmm. Eventually, and if somebody's coming to talk to you about it, that's probably why they've come. Mm-hmm. Because they're feeling some suffering at this point. Right. You know, there's conviction of the Holy Spirit, but also probably their world is sort of starting to crumble. Right? Things are, things are not as they want them to be, and God is allowing that, the pain of that to drive them back to Jesus.

So. You know, it's almost like if you're suffering, it's about suffering. And if you're sinning, it's about suffering. Yeah. I think that's really good because it really changes the way we approach other people. And again, we recognize that if we can't apply th this simple paradigm to ourselves first, we're gonna come in a little bit like a bull in a China shop.

Yes. Ready to find the sin. But if we can't lament for our. Suffering. Yeah. Then we're not gonna be able to lament with someone else. That's right. If we are driving ourselves just to clean up our act and get it right, which I have done for many, many, many years, but we're gonna approach other people that way.

And so, um, I, I love that you know that the sin and suffering, we end up seeing them woven together. And, and again, when I look at Jesus, especially in the gospels, that's what I see him being able to do over and over again. He doesn't see people in these categories. He sees this whole person, he hears their whole story and he sees all of the The struggle together.

Yeah. And if we think about the framework, again, saints suffer center. What we're really saying is, if you're a saint, how does it change your suffering? Mm-hmm. And if you're a saint, how does it change your sinning? Mm. Mm-hmm. How does Christ and your relationship with him bring about what we would say is the comfort for a sufferer and or the hope and then the help or the change for a sin and being oriented to just this simple framework.

Mm-hmm. Um, is really, we hope just going to, has been helpful for us. We hope is really going to help our listeners. Look at people through a broader lens. Mm-hmm. A fuller lens, um, a lens that will allow us to. I think just really enter in and look at the whole person or the person as a whole instead of segmented.

Yeah, so the way I see that happening, Brenda, is when we go in through the syk, we can so easily come in condemning and separate from them. When we go in through a saint and suffering paradigm into um, someone's struggle with sin, we are usually able. More easily identify with their suffering. Even if I don't have the same suffering as you.

I can feel the pain of a prodigal because I know when my, my children make bad choices. Yeah. How painful it is to me, even though I don't have the same story as you. Um, you can feel the pain of chronic pain because you've woken up and been in pain before and you can imagine that multiplied. So we can identify with them there and develop a real empathy there.

And then I think it helps the other person and. Have this feeling of we're coming alongside you. You're not separate from me in your struggle against sin. Now I've identified with you in your suffering, and I can more easily identify the factors that set up this sinful lifestyle. And then I connect there and I can see the commonality I have with you in our sinfulness.

Yeah, our common sinfulness, the such is as common to man. Yeah. Sin. And there's just a sweet, sweet invitation in that. Yes, it feels like. I've knocked on the door and you've opened it instead of I have busted the door down. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Uhhuh with my Bible. Yeah. With my bible in hand. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I was thinking about when I was taking one of my classes, um, we had to do some peer, you know, counseling.

And I'll remember that this couple was assigned to counseling and it, at that point, my son was in really just the throes of rebellion. And, um, I'll never forget because the husband immediately went for the juggler. He was convinced that I was an idolator as a mother. I was an idolator in ministry. I mean, begin to slice and dice me.

Mm-hmm. And I actually broke down weeping because I felt so just shamed and misunderstood. Yes. I mean, I had deep, deep suffering. Um, while I was at this class, I didn't even know where my son was. I was waiting to hear from him, was he dead? Was he alive? Like there was a lot going on just in that very moment.

And rather than coming in. And I'm not saying that there weren't some, some issues in my life, but sure that was not the moment to address them. And, um, and I, I just really remember just how I felt Very stripped. Mm-hmm. I mean, it was almost like if you could just imagine just being physically stripped, I was just emotionally, spiritually, just stripped.

And, um, and the wife, thank God for the wife because she was there and she really sensed it. And she immediately sort of tried to turn things and really begin to ask me like, what was going on and how long had this been going on? And what was I feeling and what was I doing and where was God meeting me?

And to the man's credit, he came back and really saw the air of his ways. Mm-hmm. Think that left such an impression on me because I got to really experience what it felt like to be on a, a sin witch hunt. Mm-hmm. And to immediately look at somebody as a sinner Yeah. Really with no hope to begin with, and no entering in or understanding my suffering story.

Yeah. And, um, that, that made it indelible impression. And I, and I think from that day forward, like, I was like, okay, where's the sin story? I mean, the suffering story. I, I wanna go in that place first Lord. Right. And. And then we will, you know, sort of drill down to the sin. I love your word stripped, cuz it's really visual to me.

Uh, and, and, and then the opposite is true. If we can approach someone through this paradigm, we're saying, okay, here's how you're clothed in the robes of Christ. Like, here's how you have his righteousness, and now here's a blanket yes and a warm cup of tea. And now let's talk about yes, your struggle with this is an issue.

Like I, I almost, again feel like I have to, I have. Convince people that they need some comfort yes. From God and that they need some comfort from his word. And then once I do, um, you know, they're already on their sin sin story, but I actually think that they approach their sin, their own struggle with sin a little bit differently too.

Like they, they can apply the gentleness of Christ to their own. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the other reasons why I think this is so helpful is because it is a tool, not just in a framework or a paradigm in my own mind, but it's become a tool for me that I encourage a lot of people to use in conversation.

Mm-hmm. And that is when you are at a place where you don't know what to ask someone, and you do wanna go deep, I encourage small group leaders to do this. I encourage, you know, anyone who's involved in the lives of other people to take this paradigm, Saint center sufferer and use it as questions. Hmm. So, um, to, to my saintliness, I ask, what's, what's good in your life?

What, what is, what is good? What is celebratory? What can we bless right now, um, to the suffer? What is. Like just what is, where are you experiencing the fall? Where are you noticing it in your body, in your relationships? Um, and then you know, what is bad? What is good, hard and bad? And so where are you struggling with sin?

Where do, what is something the Holy Spirit's putting his finger on right now? And to me, that's just the easiest tool to remember when I completely draw a blank of where someone is or, um, we're having. Maybe, uh, a women's gathering and we're supposed to have some conversation around the table that goes a little deeper.

It's just an easy paradigm. Mm-hmm. Good, hard, bad. Um, and it orients people and even as they're answering the questions, they are orienting themselves to those categories, even if they don't know them. Yeah. That's so good. And I, and I really think it's also a. What I'm gonna call a homework tool. Um, you know, it's really helpful when we meet with somebody, if we can give them something to take with them.

Mm-hmm. Or they can just meet with Jesus, right. And they can pray and they can get in the scriptures and they can think and they can meditate. And so if you think about somebody comes to you with a problem. Let's say they, let's say a, a wife is really struggling with, um, you know, having an anger problem with their children.

Not that I ever struggled with that, except for the fact I didn't know I had an anger problem until I had three children under the edge of five. Yes. Then I was arranging maniac. It was probably about the time that I was really like, I gotta see what Jesus, how Jesus can help me. Um, but even taking that paradigm and telling that mom like, I want you to go home and over the next week I want you to think about your situ.

And I want you to think about it in a light of that you're a saint. Mm-hmm. The promises of God to you as a young mom. Mm-hmm. As a young person, as a young Christian, you know, I want you to think about the suffering. Like there is a, there's a hard, there's a hard in being a mom. I mean, it's part of the curse, it's part of the fall and the good, I mean, going back to the saint, like what's good about being a mom?

Like all the things you can be thankful for. All the promises of God's 30 years. What's really hard here? And then the. Right? Mm-hmm. Like, and maybe even who's sending where, sort of parsing that out. Like, I, well, my doc, my child's sitting here, but gosh, I'm not dealing with that well, but then I'm, cause I'm responding sinfully.

Mm-hmm. And so maybe it also becomes a way to sort of orient even over an issue, right? Where you can really begin to identify all of those components. Mm-hmm. And not just get locked in on one. Yes. And it can be a working document, it could be something that you can continue to build on every day as you are encountering more things in your home as God is revealing more in his word to you through your personal devotionals or through your interaction with other women.

Yep. So it's become a journal exercise. It can become a way to pray, to orient yourself, to pray, um, as you're. You know, you know, you're in the midst of a struggle, but you need to be oriented back to, uh, who you are in Christ, the promises and character of God to you. So it can be a way to pray through those things.

So, yeah, I just think it's so helpful. Um, saint sufferer sin good, hard, bad. They just, they just flow together. They become easy. You said hooks. Yeah. There's some great hooks for conversation, for journaling, for prayer. I hope we've explained them. You know, sometimes I like to just say, that's all I got. Is that all we got?

I think that's all we got. I think that's all we got. So hopefully, hopefully this will be helpful and then we get some feedback of people who are actually orienting it first to their own lives. Yes. We can't stress that enough people. Please. We have to understand these things for ourselves before we can really begin to, as a natural overflow, present them and be useful in the lives of other people.

And the beauty is, is really what we've presented is really simple. Mm-hmm. It may, you know, may be a little bit hard to begin with, just, um, if these are some new concepts, but really they're pretty simple concepts. And it's three things. These three things. Just three things. Three things. All we can remember.

Three things. That's right.