Season 4 Episode 9: Perfectionism

Brenda (00:01.81)

Well, hey, Alex, we're wrapping up season four, wisdom for life's common struggles. And as you know, I have been anxiously awaiting or lovingly longing for this episode because it puts you on the hot seat, my friend.

Alex (00:03.565)

Hey, friend.

Brenda (00:19.842)

And you know, perfectionism is actually one of the few things I don't struggle with. I don't think I've been accused very often of being a perfectionist, but I do know a little bit about perfectionism because I was raised by one. My mother is definitely perfectionistic. My husband leans toward perfectionism. And one of my very, very closest dearest friends, confidants and personal counselors, who I will not name, is also one.

Alex (00:45.651)

Hahaha!

Brenda (00:50.734)

Oh, you know what I just think is a reforming people pleaser. You know, I just want people to like me because I'm irresistible, not because I'm perfect, right? And I'm really mostly comfortable with this idea of it's just good enough. In fact, it's kind of a mantra I have, ah, it's just good enough. But those words really tend to be death to the perfectionist because the perfectionist thinks it's never good enough. Am I right?

Alex (00:59.432)

hahahaha

Alex (01:15.375)

That's true and I'm glad you added the word mostly in there because I do think there's one place that you do struggle with perfectionism and it's right here where we are today. It's in the place of the podcasting that we do together and there's the one place you have a hard time saying it's good enough. It's like you're tweaking, you're massaging, you're adding and so I think you can relate to a lot of the things we say today.

Brenda (01:24.218)

Uh oh. Yeah.

Brenda (01:44.64)

All right, I'll have to say that is true enough. And maybe even if I go broader, I think when it comes to presenting God's Word and teaching and exhorting, I probably lean that way. But that is the only area.

Alex (01:56.207)

Yes.

Brenda (01:57.238)

But what, just to be clear, because I'm not gonna be on this hot seat, Alex, this podcast for you, my friend. That's right. I see how you're working. See how she's working this? Just like let's reframe this a little bit. But seriously, why don't we start off with a definition of perfectionism? How would you describe it?

Alex (02:02.887)

That's right, I'm staying in the hot seat. Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha.

Alex (02:17.915)

Well first I'm just going to give the literal dictionary definition of perfectionism which says that perfectionism is refusing to accept anything less than flawless, which sounds so intimidating even when I read it. But I would say spiritually perfectionism is characterized by working for our salvation like trying to be good enough or trying to be good enough to merit favor from God and

the promise of eternal life that we have is not based on what we do but on who Christ is and what he has done. And so I think even within talking about that spiritually we see that perfectionism and self-righteousness are really closely linked together. We're thinking about the older brother in the Prodigal Son story, how he was the rule follower, the disciplined one, he didn't outwardly get out of line and that's a key point, not outwardly.

Yet he's still very far from the heart of God. So I think one of the things I've realized in myself and I've heard other people say about perfectionism is that repenting or recovering from being the self-righteous older brother is actually harder than being the younger brother and repenting. And so I definitely see that in my own life.

Brenda (03:41.898)

You know, I'm glad you brought up the story of the prodigal, because I think that so often the focus is on the prodigal instead of the older brother. But Jesus was really telling that story to rebuke those who were self-righteous. And I can definitely see, because if you think about it, those of us who tend more toward the younger brother, at some point, we normally drive our lives into a ditch, and we have a felt need for Jesus, right? We're not self-deceived.

Alex (03:49.659)

Hmm.

Alex (04:04.104)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (04:11.792)

It's a lot harder to get to that desperate place when your idolatry is working for you.

Alex (04:16.611)

Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. And I think we'll talk about some of the kind of quote unquote benefits of perfectionism later. But one of the ways I like to think about perfectionism and what it does for us is that it is us taking ourselves into the courtroom over and over again. Like we are constantly prosecuting ourselves. And so it kind of harkens back to what we talked about in season one with the Shuns. That was one of the episodes we had.

justification, sanctification, glorification. And we talked about the fact that justification is a legal term, it's the one and done. It's the, we're in the courtroom of God and He lowers the gavel and declares us not guilty, not because of what we've done, but because of what Christ has done and because of His righteousness. And in addition, and this is a key point, I think, for us perfectionists to hang on to, in addition to being declared not guilty, we have something called double imputation.

and we didn't put that in the Shun's podcast, so I think we need to talk about it today. And W. M. Putation says that God looks on me in Christ just as if I have never sinned and just as if I have always obeyed. So I not only get forgiveness for my sins, but I also get Jesus' righteousness credited to me. And in perfectionism, I don't grasp a

Alex (05:46.565)

And so as I said, there we are at three o'clock in the morning taking ourselves into the courtroom over and over again and we're putting God and everyone else in the gallery watching us as we sit in the seat of the judge and we sit in the in the seat of the one being prosecuted and we're constantly trying to judge if we measure up.

Brenda (06:10.062)

And that is absolutely terrible, terrifying and taxing. Um, and really and truly Alex, it's an exercise in futility because it undermines the life, death and resurrection of Christ. And that's our standing as Christians.

Alex (06:14.095)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (06:21.848)

Yes, yes.

That's right. And so you can hear, I love the word that you said, taxing, because you can hear the ways that you just are a perfectionist or I wake up at three in the morning and just rehearse over and over again, the play by play of the conversations, the analysis of how productive was I today? Did I get enough done? Did I do it right? And so I think each person has their own form of perfectionism. Even as we talked about just a minute ago, Brenda,

may think we don't struggle with perfectionism, but maybe it crops up in just one or two areas of our lives that are really important to us, or maybe it's across the board. So each person has their own form of protection for perfectionism and their own criteria for judging themselves, and I think that's a big part of perfectionism is we're judging ourselves. And so we may believe that another person doesn't struggle with it, but it's just because they're

Brenda (07:00.811)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (07:24.969)

we would judge them. And I think that's why Paul reminds us in the scripture that he doesn't even judge himself. Like I think he's trying to speak to us perfectionists to say like not only should you not be judging other people but be careful and don't even turn that judgment in towards yourself because you're on dangerous ground. And and to your point Brenda you're gonna wear yourself out.

Brenda (07:27.014)

That's a good point.

Brenda (07:48.854)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I think there's something really interesting about this perfectionist tendency because there's actually a good side of it. I think most of the perfectionist people I know really want to be excellent. And I was even thinking about like the podcast or my desire for teaching like there is this desire. I'm representing the Lord. I want it to be excellent or you know that in any area. And and it seems like most of the people that I know who character logically like in every area of their life struggle with perfectionism.

Alex (08:01.457)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (08:09.614)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (08:20.716)

at the things they do. And so I'm just wondering like kind of where that teeters over from excellence to perfectionism and then what's like there has to be some sort of goal or motivation or something the perfection perfectionistic person is wanting for themselves. Do you see I'm saying like some desire underlying desire there that pushes me from excellence to now I have to be perfect.

Alex (08:29.127)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (08:40.528)

Yeah.

Alex (08:45.583)

Yeah, I think you're touching on something really important. First of all, I've had people say to me like, the employee that they wanna hire is the recovering perfectionist, right? And I've also even heard Brene Brown say that the antidote to perfectionism is excellence, which is a little bit of a brain teaser if you really think about it. But I think you're touching on that, the difference between absolutely flawless,

versus do everything unto the Lord with all your hearts, soul, mind and strength. And so the flawlessness, I think it's motivated by that self-justification. Like I want to make sure that I feel good about myself and make myself acceptable to others. And so I create a standard that is really unachievable. And so I think it's the self-justification and it's an impo...

Brenda (09:22.283)

Yes.

Alex (09:45.977)

standard and I think it's all surrounding making sure that others will accept me.

Brenda (09:56.026)

Hmm.

Well, that's really good. So I'm going to have to really think about whether I'm perfectionistic in this realm that you've accused me of. Just kidding. Or if I'm just seeking excellence. But again, to your point, it's a fine line and it really goes back a lot to the motivation there. So that's a good thing, I think, for anybody listening who's thinking I'm not perfectionistic as well, like, well, look at those places in your life where you are really striving to achieve a high standard.

Alex (10:04.659)

Hahaha

Alex (10:13.218)

Uh huh.

Brenda (10:26.96)

for excellence and then ask yourself, what is the motivation behind that? Because I think that'll be really telling. Is it to really love God and love your neighbor, or does it tend to be more self-serving? So here's a question. What are the, and I'm gonna say perceived positive effects or benefits of perfectionism?

Alex (10:37.229)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (10:46.671)

Yeah, I think it's an excellent question because I think part of the allure of perfectionism is that we as perfectionists get a lot of positive feedback. I mean, starting probably in preschool, we get praise from the teachers, from the coaches, from other parents because we are the rule followers. And so there is a sense that it's hard to let go of striving for that perfectionism

we're getting positive reinforcement all the time because we follow the rules and people want us you know in their organization and so again I like your word perceived because it has its own pitfalls but we have to acknowledge that perfectionists are constantly getting reinforced for their pet sin.

Brenda (11:40.346)

Wow, okay, well as you talk, I am realizing that perfectionistic people and people pleasers have something in common. And that is we both want praise and admiration from others, but how we go about getting it is different, which is really interesting, because a people pleaser is more likely to say, hey, I'll be imperfect and break the rules if it means you will like me.

Alex (11:47.783)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (12:02.592)

Oh yeah.

Brenda (12:03.83)

And that's why so many of us are chameleons and get in trouble along the way, right? But for you as a perfectionist, there's this inner ruthless critic that's a driving force. And so how does that impact you negatively?

Alex (12:07.916)

Yeah, yeah.

Alex (12:14.617)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (12:19.927)

I think it means that we live lives where we're very tired, where we're very anxious, often lack confidence. I think we become very critical of self and by extension others. There's no way to turn that criticism on ourselves and it doesn't eventually come out towards others. I think we feel guilty and discouraged all the time because we think we're falling short. I think we can begin to believe that people don't care.

about us for who we are but only for what we do and how we do it. And so kind of in the words of Scripture we tend to live like orphans instead of sons or daughters or as Paul contrasts it slaves instead of sons or daughters.

Brenda (13:10.986)

Yeah, so you know, you've talked about how guilt and discouragement lead to shame and how that shame perpetuates perfectionist perfectionism. So can you explain that kind of what that link is between shame and perfectionist perfectionism? Goodness, I can't say that word and how not very I'm not very perfectionistic in how I'm saying perfectionism and how they're related. Don't judge me.

Alex (13:19.835)

Yeah.

Alex (13:29.111)

I can't say it either, did I? Yeah.

Alex (13:37.959)

So this has been one of probably the areas that I've grown to understand the most in the last several years is this connection between shame and perfectionism. I think it helps if we'll first define shame and then we'll make the connections. So shame, first of all, we could talk about shame for an entire season and we probably will at some point because it's such a big topic. But I want to give a working definition for this discussion.

the deep sense that you are unacceptable because of something you did or something done to you or something associated with you and it makes you feel exposed and humiliated. So often we say that shame is not saying I've done something bad but it's saying I am bad.

Brenda (14:31.338)

Yes, and that's just a completely different statement. By the way, I'm sorry, you're gonna have to make a cut right here, Malia, and read Spice because I couldn't hear the last of what Alex said, I don't know if I cut her off. She's gone dead to me. I didn't? Okay.

Alex (14:45.115)

You didn't.

Brenda (14:49.79)

Okay. Yeah, you're getting a lot of, you're cutting out a lot, Alex.

Brenda (14:58.6)

Okay.

Brenda (15:08.351)

Yeah, both are cutting out for me, and then I couldn't tell like her mouth isn't matching her audio, so I can't tell if I'm gonna step on her so like

Brenda (15:19.53)

Okay, well maybe I'll do the same thing if you think that it's gonna maybe that will help me. But it seemed like to me maybe it was just confusing to me because her mouth and her everything was okay.

Brenda (15:36.702)

I don't know. See, I can't tell because I think I was just so I can't talk so fixated like her words. It wasn't all matching. Okay.

Brenda (15:48.838)

Well, it seemed like that did happen, but now I'm not sure.

Brenda (15:56.638)

Okay. Well, I'm just going to start with after she says, she says, I am bad. And then I'll just pick up there.

Brenda (16:10.146)

So Alex, we know that counselors and psychologists will tell us that shame is the most painful human emotion to feel, and will do just about anything to avoid it or cover it. So for you, where do you think this idea of I am bad began?

Alex (16:28.123)

Yeah, I think that this may seem strange, but I think that story of shame began before I was even born. You know, my story is that my mom was 17 when she got pregnant with me. And so I really believe that from my earliest days, I spent my life trying to be worthy of love. So the interesting thing too about the way perfectionism has kind of played out for me is that I can't say, I'm not a detail-oriented person.

not like down to the detail everything has to be perfect but I I'm a perfectionist who feels like they have to do it all and so I just felt like I had to do everything and when I say this next thing I'm not saying this with pride I actually say this with a great deal of sorrow but I think it illustrates something really important about the way that I've struggled I was

Brenda (17:06.836)

Hmm.

Brenda (17:26.606)

Heh.

Alex (17:28.057)

at all. And if I joined an organization, I was an officer in it, and I joined lots of organizations. And so, you know, I've shared that with a lot of people, and I've even told my children, but it really became, I don't know, tangible a couple of months ago when I was cleaning out a closet, and I found my day timer, if you remember those, my day timer from college.

Brenda (17:35.534)

I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Brenda (17:51.73)

Oh yeah. That's dating us.

Alex (17:55.511)

Yes, and I think I looked at both my junior and senior years my daughter was sitting here with me and I turned it around to her and she was like, oh my gosh and Took a picture of it to save it because it's just such a tangible expression of my way of I do perfectionism but literally morning to night was scheduled out every single day of the week like it was just I literally remember leaving my apartment at 7 30 in the morning and getting

home at 10 o'clock at night and that's just the way my whole junior and senior year in college looked like. And so I just really felt like I had to do it all.

Brenda (18:33.834)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you know, I think it's good just to take a minute to pause here and, you know, recognize that there are life circumstances that both shape and reveal our hearts. And hearing a little bit about the story that you were born into definitely gives us a backdrop to make it a little bit easier to see how shame and perfectionism actually could become a part of your story.

So you say shame is the other side of the coin of perfectionism. Heard you say that, so tell us what that means.

Alex (19:05.295)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (19:08.551)

So, I think for years I thought I didn't struggle with shame. I would read books about shame and I would talk about shame, but I just thought, this just really isn't my struggle. And I think on my second or third time through Shame Interrupted by Ed Welch and going back through the Parable of the Prodigal Son, I realized, okay, I am the legalistic older brother. But what I realized is that I was using perfectionism, the do-it-all perfectionism to cut me.

my shame and so it worked right I couldn't even sense or didn't even feel aware of the shame that I was trying to cover or trying to hide and really what I realized is that I had this driving need to see it all and do it all because if I flipped over the coin shame was on the other side so it was it was just the other side of the same coin and so this was just the way I distracted myself and

looking at this sense of unworthiness in me. So I remember Brené Brown saying, when perfectionism is driving us, shame is riding shotgun and fear is the annoying backseat driver. And it just took me a long time to turn and look at shame riding shotgun in my own life and to see that yeah, it's been there the whole time. And Brené Brown also says, perfectionism is the self-destructive

Brenda (20:21.25)

Hmm

Alex (20:39.425)

addictive belief system that fuels this primary thought. If I look perfect and I do everything perfectly, I can avoid or minimize the painful feelings of shame, judgment, and blame." And I think she's just saying in much clearer words than I can, what I lived is that I didn't even take time to recognize that my perfectionism was covering up my sense of shame.

Brenda (20:52.708)

Mmm.

Brenda (21:06.574)

Hmm. Wow. I feel like that might be something that some of our listeners may have to go back and listen to again and really unpack. That's a great correlation there, but I think one that most people really don't consider. So, well, let's talk about the results of perfectionism because we know wherever there's a bad root, there's going to be bad fruit.

Alex (21:23.827)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (21:33.59)

And we've alluded to this, but and of course, you and I love alliteration. So, you know, we've got three exhaustion, exacting and exasperation. And so let's, let's just talk about exhaustion for a minute. And when I think about perfectionism, I imagine a hamster on a wheel. And there's a lot of motion, but no movement, right?

Alex (21:44.615)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (21:53.668)

Yeah.

Alex (21:57.667)

Yes, yeah, it's a great way to think about it. Yeah, because we're adding these extra biblical standards on ourselves, we're always requiring more of ourselves than God does, we're always feeling failure, and we're driven to succeed, control ourselves and others. We tend to want to control ourselves and others to achieve our goals, and so it's really hard for us to get in touch with Jesus saying,

my yoke is easy, my burden is light because it's like there's nothing that feels light about this. And so to really sink into that what Jesus is offering us is that he doesn't, he's not trying to add to our load. That what he's asking us to do is surrender and trust him and trust in his righteousness. And that's really counterintuitive for someone who has bent towards perfectionism to stop,

Brenda (22:34.862)

Hehe.

Alex (22:57.521)

slow down and to stop driving ourselves is really counterintuitive and to really grasp the fact that God is not a taskmaster up there with a score sheet in his hand you know judging us like we're in some Olympic game but he's a loving father who wants us to be able to rest in him.

Brenda (23:13.89)

Okay.

Brenda (23:22.821)

Okay, so what about exacting? What do we mean when we say exacting that that's a fruit of perfectionism?

Alex (23:29.735)

Yeah, I probably should have a good definition of exacting, but I think most of us when we either do it or we experience it, we know what it is. And I would say it's probably just being really highly critical, judgmental, and it's us having that scorecard in our hand all the time. And so I would say that if you're going to try to live as a perfect person and create a perfect world, you're going to have to have this high sense of control over yourself.

and it's gonna get turned out on others. And so we're very critical of ourselves and we're very critical of others. And I think we make others feel less than with our high standards and expectations. And I saw this so clearly the first, I'm gonna say several, leave it very murky, several years of marriage, many years of marriage. And I know Mason would tell these same stories, but I mean, I always had a plan for him. I always had some behavioral plan.

Brenda (24:19.147)

Hehehehehehe

Alex (24:29.949)

for how he could exercise more or get more done or read more books or you know and I mean literally I'm by trade I'm a school teacher so I mean I literally had the charts on the refrigerator and they were always plans for his self improvement you know

Brenda (24:30.574)

Hmm. Heh heh heh. Heh heh heh.

Alex (24:49.875)

I just really believed that when he married me, he needed me to be his junior holy spirit and I was ready for that. I was there for that job. But, I mean, just think about living with someone who is constantly seeing you as their self-improvement project because that's what exacting feels like. It's like we put other people under the microscope as well as ourselves.

Brenda (25:07.97)

Mmm.

Brenda (25:14.186)

Yeah, and that inevitably leads to our last E, which is exasperation. Because if we're highly critical and judgmental of our self and others, it is going to be exhausting and exasperating because we will never, ever, and they go on and on and on achieve perfection. And neither will the people that we love.

Alex (25:27.299)

Yes.

Alex (25:38.119)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (25:38.418)

And the beauty is we don't have to. You know, Paul says, God made him who had no sin to be sin for us so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. And so I think the way we see this played out, Alex is just right, contempt, contempt for yourself. I have to or else mentality. And you know, perfectionistic people, if they fail, it really can lead to devastation.

Alex (26:03.899)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (26:04.47)

and just dominate their perception of self. Like they're just worthless. Like you said, we just go back into that shame with the contempt and then contempt for others because if you can't measure up, then how am I gonna have a relationship with you is less relational satisfaction. And I would argue that for both people, the perfectionist and the person who's under the perfectionist or in the relationship, it does feel like you're in a relationship with a harsh taskmaster.

Alex (26:07.754)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (26:33.123)

Yeah, yeah, the exasperation goes both ways. We feel exasperated with ourselves, and then we exasperate other people. Ha ha ha.

Brenda (26:36.95)

Yes.

Brenda (26:41.874)

Yes, yeah, exactly. What's like you feel exasperated with yourself, you become exasperated with other people, and then other people get exasperated with themselves because they can't measure up, and then they're exasperated with you because they can never please you. So it's like exasperation times four. Yeah, yeah. Well, let's talk about some solutions because this is getting down. Let's bring it back up.

Alex (26:59.305)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mmm. Yeah. Mwahahahaha!

Brenda (27:09.563)

Let's infuse some hope into the situation. So one of the salt... I'm sorry.

Alex (27:13.379)

Yeah, for, yeah, I was gonna say for each one of these podcasts, we've been trying to do a soul tool and a body tool. And so we have several soul tools for this one.

Brenda (27:24.874)

Yeah, well we're going to recommend our shuns podcast. We'll put that in our show notes.

Really, if you think about it, coming back to the gospel, I mean, this is one of those besetting sins where coming back to justification really is going to be important. And even coming back to the fact that our sanctification is rooted in justification. In other words, we don't earn God's salvation and we don't earn his favor to stay in good standing with him as we continue to grow. And then two other books that you and I really like, one is the gospel primer. I think that's by some somebody Vincent.

and think of his first name, and the gospel centered life. And we could link those also in our show notes for easy access, but those two resources are really going to take somebody back to, and our Shun's podcast, I think, just really being rooted and grounded in God's love for us and what he's done for us in Christ.

Alex (28:01.604)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (28:21.947)

Yeah, and I would add one other thing. I think I love all those resources, and I believe that the gospel is the antidote for perfectionism. But the way that practically I see that play out is that we have to be in close, authentic relationships with other people. And I think authenticity is a big word for perfectionists because we wanna hide where we feel like we are not flawless.

in an authentic relationship with God first and foremost and to show our true selves to God because I think we often hide even from Him and then to be able to be in relationships with other people and so my counselor has challenged me often with these words and I've really grown to embrace this and love the idea of me becoming comfortable with messy Alex. You know the part of me that

out that doesn't know what to do that has a lot of emotion that I don't know what to do with or doesn't have a plan that's kind of messy Alex to me and for me to be with her before the Lord and know that he's perfectly comfortable with her and then to allow other people to be with me when I'm when I feel messy and that becomes the way that the gospel becomes real and it moves from an

Alex (29:52.781)

So relationship to me is what has gotten the gospel to become real and to become an effective antidote because it's being lived out as other people love me well in the midst of me not being perfect.

Brenda (30:08.402)

Yeah, and Alex, let me just say because I get to see messy Alex and I love her so much. Because I get to see her, it means we can be friends, right? And so, no, I appreciate that so much. And you know, it's in the messy Alex that I see more of Jesus, you know, and that's beautiful too. So thank you for letting me in to see who you really are.

Alex (30:12.759)

Yes!

Alex (30:18.723)

Yes. Yeah.

Alex (30:30.063)

Yeah. Well, and let...

Thank you for saying that and I think that's true because you're a safe person for me to be messy with but I also think that what you're saying touches on something that we haven't talked about but it is that perfectionists are lonely because when we don't want people to see that we live a lot of our lives hidden and so to be with people who we feel safe

Brenda (30:55.159)

Yeah.

Alex (31:03.317)

parts of us, allows us to break out of that loneliness. Because as we said, we've already exasperated ourselves in enough people and so we pull back. And I think some of the Swedish friendships for me are places where people have said, you know, I just admire you or I respect you so much and I've been able to really early on say, hey, I just need you to not put me on a pedestal.

a soul, don't reinforce. When I can be really honest, don't reinforce the part of me that wants to stay perfect in front of you and let me just fail. I've learned to say that early on in relationships and people who respond to that well and who invite me to just, like you just said, when they can encourage the parts of me that aren't always put together because I've been able to say, okay, here's my struggle and I'm going to be tempted to not let you see this.

and when they kind of celebrate messy Alex when they like her like it's very freeing.

Brenda (32:10.402)

Yeah.

Freeing, I love that, it's all about freedom. And it does remind me too, in season one, we did a podcast on our superpowers and we talk about the necessity of community, right? And I love just this idea that we need deep friendships for deep change. And so I think that's a great soul tool, like our three superpowers, it will not be enough just to have God's word and God's spirit, like we miss a major part of what helps us be transformed and that's living in close community.

Alex (32:13.737)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (32:27.532)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Alex (32:40.477)

Yeah.

Brenda (32:40.98)

some body tools, Alex.

Alex (32:43.875)

I think there's one and I think we've talked about it in other podcasts, but there's no way to talk about perfectionism and not talk about rest because perfectionism drives us. And so I think the greatest body tool we can use is to learn how to rest. Tim Keller has this great little quote that he says, lay your deadly doing down, down at Jesus' feet. Stand in him and him alone, gloriously complete.

and to rest is to lay our deadly doing down. And for me it's probably been a three or four year journey of understanding what rest is. That rest is a ceasing from our labor and so it's caused me to ask questions like what is my normal labor look like and as a counselor my normal labor is peopled, it's talking, it's sitting, and so to begin to think about ceasing from

labor as rest means that rest for me actually is often movement and it's quiet and it's some alone time because that's the opposite of what my normal work looks like and so Sabbath that's changed the way I experience Sabbath. It's caused me to plan more actually activity but it's not activity that's driving me it's activity that's truly recreating me.

Sabbath is a big part of that, but I would also say learning to physically rest and learning to have a sensory rest. One of the things I found myself doing is, oh, I'm going to take a walk, but I'm going to always have a podcast in my ears and I'll always have this sensory stimulation. I'm always multitasking. If I'm cooking, I'm listening to something. I'm always doing three or four things at once. And to even give myself sensory rest that causes me to focus on the task at hand.

Brenda (34:28.961)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (34:35.598)

Thanks for watching!

Alex (34:43.649)

and do not have a lot of other stimulation is another way that I've learned that my body needs to come to rest and it causes me to really remember that what Psalms is saying of like cease striving that there's not a striving in all my doing there's a focus and there is a simplicity to my doing that didn't used to be there.

Brenda (35:06.591)

Yeah.

Wow, I just love all that. And I think you're right, it's really interesting. I can almost say with every podcast this season, we could put rest, understanding Sabbath, understanding resting God at the top of the list of our body tools that actually ministers to our soul. That we're in body spirits and we are so intricately connected that to give our bodies and our minds rest does something to the inner man that nothing else can. So it's really great.

Alex (35:15.651)

Yes.

Brenda (35:37.3)

time to wrap this thing up but as we do wrap up I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about how God has rescued you from the delusion of perfectionism and you know how you've just grown maybe just a few points that we can take away and give some other folks who are struggling some hope that with Jesus's help and his means this is something that can be overcome progressively in our lives not perfectly but little by little

Alex (35:39.367)

Mm.

Alex (35:47.047)

Mm.

Alex (35:54.395)

Yeah.

Alex (36:02.798)

Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah.

So again, it's gonna be in both of these areas of relationship at rest. I think I had to first come to know myself well and then allow others to really know me. And not just allow people to know me but also to allow people, let me say it this way, part of knowing myself meant I had to know my limitations, my finiteness and my frailty.

Alex (36:36.185)

I had to let other people love me and serve me and do for me. And for somebody who wants to do all the time, that was a very, very hard thing to do. And of course, one of the ways the Lord had to teach me, that was through chronic pain when there are times when I could not do for myself. And I do not recommend that as a way to learn that lesson. So, again, being in relationships where I'm known and where I allow...

Brenda (36:55.92)

Right?

Alex (37:03.143)

to receive has been very big. Learning how to rest has truly been the hardest work of my life which sounds like an oxymoron but it is true and it's really been about not just not doing because we can all turn on Netflix and veg out and not do but it's learning how to rest which means my spirit

Brenda (37:05.528)

Hmm.

Brenda (37:11.15)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (37:33.357)

being productive and with not accomplishing something and those are two different things. I remember about a year or two ago it kind of came home to me I saw you know you're flipping through Instagram and you're seeing these little pithy sayings but this one just like jumped off the screen and hit me between the eyes and it said it was talking about how we talk about

Alex (38:03.097)

why am I being so lazy or can you become curious about oh I wonder why I'm tired today and I it jumped off the page because I realized that it had been a weekend where I'd gone through the weekend and I had called myself lazy either internally in my own mind or externally and in calling myself lazy I realized I'm not at rest even if I'm not doing anything but being able to be

Brenda (38:30.368)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (38:33.117)

I feel really tired today. What does my body need and be curious about what my body needs? That was learning how to come to rest and really be at peace with inactivity. So I would just say to close like the only way that either of these things have happened is because I have had to vertically orient to the love of God for me. Like I don't think we can be known and receive in relationships or learn to allow our bodies to come to rest if we don't

Brenda (38:41.794)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (39:02.577)

the love of God for us, that He is not waiting for us to get things done, that He is really okay, and for me that meant recognizing that one of the lies that shaped me was that I had to do it right, I had to get it done, and I had to replace that, and I had to regularly say to myself, and still do, the perfect life has already been, the perfect life has already been lived for me, and Jesus

It's finished.

Brenda (39:36.434)

All right, well, that will preach. That'll preach. I think we can stop right there. I don't want to mess it up. And so, well, thank you, Alex. Thank you for just being vulnerable with your own struggle. And thank you for letting us also just see the glory of God and Christ in you as he has continued to transform you. It's been super beautiful and it's been fun. And I'm glad.

Alex (39:39.067)

That'll fit.

Alex (39:56.195)

It's been fun for you to not be on the hot seat. Ha ha ha.

Brenda (39:58.69)

Yes, it has been no doubt. No doubt. Well listen, we are thankful for everyone who has taken time out to listen to us, and we hope that this entire series has been profitable. We'd love your feedback. If you have questions, we would love for you to message us through any of our social media outlets. Start a conversation on our conversational counseling Facebook page about any of the topics, and we'd love to pop on and give answers or

not add to your confusion, but encourage you more. So we're just really thankful for the opportunity we have and just this time that God has given. So God bless to everybody.