Season 4 Episode 8: Fear of Man
brenda_payne (00:06.15)
It's great to be with you again today. I miss seeing you. Now that we do these remote, we don't get to get together in person too much anymore. So you just need to come to Chattanooga again. That's all I'm saying. But any rate about our topic today, we are working on a series, working through a series called Wisdom for Life's Common Struggles. And today our topic is fear of man. So,
alex_kocher (00:10.755)
Yes.
alex_kocher (00:17.203)
I feel like you've seen me a lot.
brenda_payne (00:36.45)
We're gonna jump right in because we have a lot of ground to cover. No, we've already said this whole podcast is just about our own counseling, which is fine because that's what we're recommending to everyone first is we're often speaking from our own experience because these aren't just principles that we teach. These are principles that we have learned to live and come to know the person of Jesus deeper and walk with him more closely. So we're excited to share these things. Well, a common definition of fear a man
alex_kocher (00:40.112)
Not that either of us struggle with that, but... Ha ha
alex_kocher (00:48.213)
Yes, exactly.
alex_kocher (01:02.115)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (01:06.67)
that might be a definition that most would resonate with most people. And when we think of people pleasing, we need to think about a coin. Because people pleasing really is two sides of the same coin. On one side of that coin, we have an inordinate desire for approval, which means we have, we want it too much. And or on the other side, we have an inordinate fear of disapproval. So Alex, let me just say, it's not wrong for me to want your approval.
alex_kocher (01:32.753)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (01:36.51)
I actually want you to like me. And that's a good thing. And it's understandable that I don't want to disappoint you or feel rejection from you or be abandoned by you. But the problem is when I desire or fear these things too much, when I actually want to please you more than I want to love you. And that also is an indication that I'm not trusting or loving God in the way that pleases him. So we want to talk about love.
alex_kocher (01:39.072)
Mm-hmm. Yeah
brenda_payne (02:06.15)
talk about this idea of people pleasing. And I love this book by Ed Welch. I know you've read it as well. We recommend it. I think his title kind of captures the whole essence of people pleasing. When people are big and God is small. Let me just read this one quote from his book. He writes, one, we fear people because they can expose and humiliate us. Two, we fear people because they can reject,
alex_kocher (02:06.304)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (02:23.933)
Gas.
brenda_payne (02:36.17)
Three, we fear people because they can attack, oppress, or threaten us. These three reasons have one thing in common, they see people as bigger, that is, more powerful and significant than God. And out of the fear that creates in us, we give other people the power and right to tell us what to think, feel, and do.
alex_kocher (02:59.592)
Yeah. Well, Brenda, I like both your points. I'm going to go back to the first one first that that is okay for us to want to be liked by other people. It's not that that's not the problem. And one thing that's helped me over the last few years to to to remember to see people as a saint, center and suffer is to recognize that these idolatries that we struggle with and people
alex_kocher (03:30.152)
our Amago Day. They're rooted in our creation story, the way that God made us to be. And so we recognize that we were created for belonging. We were created to be in relationship with other people. In the creation account we see that God's naming everything good. It's good. It's good. And then he says it's not good for man to be alone. And that's why he creates Eve. And so we see that he created
with other people and that good creation was twisted in the fall and that's where I what idolatries are they're really just many times good things that are twisted or marred or they become bigger or what we call inordinate desires and so one of the things that I just like to remind myself of is that we need to be in communities where we're known and where we know other people deeply and that that is good and true and beautiful to
community that way and that the counterfeit of that good and beautiful thing is this inordinate desire for approval that ends up driving us. And so it kind of goes to your second point that people pleasing is really a worship disorder. It's a place where we have allowed this desire for belonging to become a desire for approval, which is a counterfeit of belonging. And we see that
that it has become too big. It allows us to worship what others think of us more than we worship, trust, and obey God. And so a lot of times what happens is, and I think that you and I can both probably attest to this, people pleasing becomes the acceptable idolatry because people pleasing, people pleasers are nice people and they get a lot of good feedback for being nice. But what
brenda_payne (05:20.853)
Yes.
Yep.
alex_kocher (05:29.472)
Underneath that desire for people pleasing is a real selfishness. That's Maybe even a lot of frustration and a lot of resentment Because what we see is if if if we've ever struggled with people pleasing and that could be particular to One or two people or just in general But when we struggle with people pleasing We know that what the scripture says is true that the fear of man or people pleasing will prove to be a snare to us It is a
it is bondage, but whoever trusts in the Lord is safe. So that verse kind of encapsulates that idea of right worship. Like when we are worshiping the approval of man, it will entrap us. It will it will cause us to be in bondage, but that when we orient ourselves back to right worship of the Lord, we will be kept safe.
brenda_payne (06:20.25)
Absolutely. Well, let's talk about some of the traps because again, we've talked about a lot of these traps are good things that we've turned into ultimate things. So we're going to go through, I think we have five or six categories. I think five categories that we've kind of made as our headings, if you will. And then there's a lot of ways that we could give expression to these sort of traps. We're just going to name a few. But one of them is a people pleaser tends to be
just concerned, so everything we're talking about is over, over the top. Excessively worrying about what others think about them and actually determining our value by what other people say or think about us. And so what ends up happening is that we have to be chameleons to do whatever's necessary to fit in with the crowd or the people that we're trying to impress or at least not to in any way gain disface.
alex_kocher (07:11.797)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (07:20.39)
from. And then secondly, people pleasers often guess, you know, are always second guessing themselves in light of what other people think about them. And so there's just this constant worry or over which really worry is an over concern. So we can say there's a constant worry about what others are going to think about us. The other one is, oh go ahead.
alex_kocher (07:23.394)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (07:34.417)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (07:47.333)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think about, oh, I just think about myself laying my head on the pillow at night and replaying, just replaying over and over again, interactions. And why did I say it that way? And what did they think when I said that? Or what did they think when I did that? And that is that over concern that almost fixates on what other people think.
brenda_payne (07:57.753)
Yes.
brenda_payne (08:08.97)
Yep. Yeah, gotta replay every conversation, every word, every scenario. The second one is being over committed. Again, there's nothing wrong with commitments, but a people pleaser is over committed. They have a hard time saying no, and because of that, they just pile on too much. And as a result, a lot of times a people pleaser is gonna forsake the wise stewardship of their body or even their spiritual life. So again, it looks good. It looks like I'm always putting
alex_kocher (08:15.941)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (08:39.15)
in front of me, but one of the damaging impacts of being a people-pleaser and being over committed is I'm actually not doing a lot of the things that God has commanded me to do because I'm doing a lot of things that people are commanding me to do.
alex_kocher (08:55.532)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, kind of in conjunction with that, in addition to being over committed, we feel over responsible. And what I mean by that is we feel over responsible for the way other people feel. We feel over responsible for, like I'm responsible for their happiness. And so we tend to want to avoid any conflict. We also tend to take responsibility for things that we are,
not responsible for. Some people would call that like a savior complex where we feel like we have to be the one to intervene in situations because we put a responsibility on ourselves that the Lord has not given us. The other over is that we tend to be oversensitive. This is the part where we are fearing the disapproval of others and so we become overly sensitized to there they're
by things that they say. And so what we like to say, and you and I probably say this at least once a week, don't we, like you feel a pinprick like a knife stab. And so somebody makes an offhand comment and we cannot let it go. And we feel deeply wounded by what was not intended to be a wound, or we feel devastated when someone doesn't like us. So we end up apologizing all the time. We feel guilty about things
guilty about. So we just become overly sensitized to the feelings of others. We become overly sensitized to slights that we perceive by other people. And then the last one is overachievement and I'm pretty sure that we gave me this one because that should... that is the banner over my life... is overachievement. And I
overachieving with people pleasing, but it certainly is. I used to say that I overachieved because I wanted to live up to my standard, but it is interesting that in any given arena I am working to gain the approval of others or even sometimes working to gain the approval of God. And so I achieve in order to feel like God is not upset with me, to feel like he loves me, that I can merit his favor, and it's a way of subtly seeking out
alex_kocher (11:25.632)
approval of God but also just a validation and an approval from other people. And so we tend to just keep going, going, going, doing, doing, doing and and we exhaust ourselves and again we become ensnared or entrapped by people pleasing.
brenda_payne (11:41.55)
Yeah, and just from looking at this list is understandable why people pleasers actually tend to be under a lot of stress and anxiety. This over the topness, the way we're having to perform, the way we're having to relate to other people is very exhausting. And we also wanted to say that these traps lead people into codependent relationships where enabling not only hurts
but also hurts the person who they're actually trying to please. You know, we might see that with a mother who won't allow consequences for to fall on her child who has addiction issues or even a woman who's stuck in an abusive relationship. And again, I know there's a lot of complexities there, but I think in those sort of scenarios, oftentimes what we see is that a person really does have this bent toward people pleasing and has become trapped and ensnared.
alex_kocher (12:41.472)
Yeah. And you know, when I think about people pleasing, I think about one notable person in the Bible, a transformed people pleaser, if you will, and that's Peter. We see Peter just fall spectacularly and denying Jesus. Yes. After Jesus was arrested, we see Peter denying him three times. And then we see this beautiful restoration of Peter that Jesus does after his resurrection.
brenda_payne (12:56.575)
Emphasis on spectacularly.
alex_kocher (13:12.112)
And then I think we get to see Peter's repentance in the book of Acts when we see him just continue to fearlessly preach the gospel in the face of so much opposition. But I think we have to recognize even in the life of Peter that when Peter chose to obey God over man, he he received a lot of opposition and it cost him a lot. I mean he was martyred for spreading the gospel. And so if we're going to
be a people pleaser. And we're going to change that. We're going to repent of that and choose to live a life that please God and not man. It's going to be disruptive. It's going to be disruptive to us and it may have some disruptive consequences.
brenda_payne (13:56.79)
And I know that very personally, Alex, I'm gonna call this episode, Confessions of an Approval Junkie. Because now I'm gonna share a little bit about how people pleasing is actually my besetting sin. And what I mean by besetting sin is Hebrews talks about those sins that we constantly struggle with or entangle us or trip us up. And people pleasing has been that sin for me,
alex_kocher (14:05.032)
Ha ha ha!
brenda_payne (14:25.53)
the grace of God and by what I'm going to share today, I've just seen the Lord do a huge work in my life in transforming my heart and in transforming my behavior and making me more like Jesus along the way, which is so encouraging. But a little bit about my background, as long as I can remember, I just know that I craved like the approval of people, but most especially I feared disapproval. And the pinprick being a knife wound would exactly
alex_kocher (14:31.273)
Ahem.
brenda_payne (14:55.71)
describe like how I lived. I don't really know why my heart was bent that way. I can't look back to any you know anything in particular but I think all of us may just have hearts that are bent in certain ways and suffering encourages that and also just the sinfulness of our own hearts encourages that. So as a young person I was always well liked like you said people pleasers we're really nice people because we're yes men and I caved into a lot of peer pressure and
And I was just trying to fit in to make other people happy. I was literally a chameleon. Well, unfortunately, I didn't just grow out of that way of thinking, but I brought my people pleasing into my married life. And once I got married, I was a fairly young Christian and I just so desperately wanted to be that wife. Right, that great wife. And in a quest to be 100% approved
alex_kocher (15:39.279)
Hehehehehe
alex_kocher (15:52.932)
Hmm. Hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm.
brenda_payne (15:55.55)
husband and literally hoping I would never be disapproved by him. I really worked hard to be the best possible wife which included, I don't know if I could say never but very rarely ever saying no to him and trying my best at all costs to avoid conflict and I actually believed I was being a selfless wife. Like I saw myself as like this is good. Now let me just say what was happening in my
alex_kocher (16:21.738)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (16:25.63)
underneath there was a lot of resentment going on, there was a lot of bitterness. In my marriage, my husband was getting big and I was getting smaller. As God was shrinking in my life, as the image of God in me was shrinking, I was shrinking. So one day I was fairly new into my counseling training. I was sitting with my mentor Lou Priolo and we were counseling this woman and Lou was asking her just, well, how would you confront?
alex_kocher (16:31.059)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (16:37.073)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (16:42.194)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (16:55.57)
husband about this issue we're talking about. And she just, she didn't know. She said, I don't know. So Lou just went on to explain how his wife would so respectfully but directly confront him. I mean, he sort of walks through this whole dialogue. She would say this to me and I would probably say this to her and it was just really beautiful and very direct but very respectful. And then he turned to me and he said, So Brenda, why don't you share with us how you would confront Paul? And I kind of took a deep breath and I said,
Not like that. Not like that. Because in seven years of marriage, I don't think I had ever really confronted my husband. So yeah, which sounds crazy, but I mean, he would even say like there was tremendous passivity on my part. So Lou looked at me and asked me a simple question. Why not? I said, well, gosh Lou, I would be too afraid. Now, mind you, my husband had never done anything.
alex_kocher (17:37.932)
Hmm.
brenda_payne (17:55.45)
anything to actually make me afraid. And so Lou looked at me, you know, and with all gentleness, really to say these words with all gentleness seems like an oxymoron, but he did say that you, Brenda, are a very selfish wife. And then I took my second gasp. Ooh! Right? And I took great offense to that. Didn't he know that I was the nicest, best, most sacrificial wife that I knew?
alex_kocher (17:59.816)
Right.
alex_kocher (18:17.161)
Oh.
brenda_payne (18:26.05)
And so he pressed in a little bit more. He said Brenda, what are you afraid of now? Now remember this is all going in front of this other counsel e this in there I'm getting my own counseling session, right? And I said why I would be afraid that he would be mad at me and he asked me then then who are you afraid for and That's when it just hit me. I am afraid for me The lights came on and at that moment I realized that my people pleasing was
alex_kocher (18:35.153)
Oh my goodness. Yeah.
brenda_payne (18:55.61)
not really about my husband or the other person, but it was about pleasing myself. And that was very shocking to me. You know, the world says that people pleasing is rooted in self-esteem, and that we have a low self-esteem. And we know what we mean by that. Like we don't, our estimation of ourselves, how we judge ourselves may be low, but really and truly if, you know,
alex_kocher (19:08.453)
Yes.
brenda_payne (19:25.51)
way out of people pleasing is not to love yourself more, not to please yourself more. Because this is actually counter to what the Bible teaches Alex. You know, Jesus, when Jesus said love your neighbor as yourself, he presupposed that we already love ourselves the best and the most. So the cure for people pleasing is not focusing more on ourselves. It's really only when we focus on loving God and trusting him biblically and loving others that we will receive the sense of stability and sanity.
and a safety that we actually desire from relationships.
alex_kocher (20:02.232)
Yeah. Yeah, I love your interchange with Lou because it reminds me of his little booklet on fear. And he talks about that simple people aren't necessarily, or simply fearful people are necessarily selfish people, that fear is really rooted in selfishness and that he, he, one of, this is one of my favorite teachings of his comes from first John four, 17 and 18, where it says,
alex_kocher (20:32.172)
have confidence for the day of judgment because as he is also we are in the world and there is no fear in love but perfect love casts out fear for fear has to do with punishment and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. So the context of these verses has to do with fear and God's judgment but John is also saying if you know God loves you and you love God you don't need to fear that judgment and so there's a lot in this booklet on
that our listeners can look up by Lu Preola, but I think this is the bottom line that what you're touching on is nothing has the power to expel fear to get rid of fear more effectively than biblical love. And it's biblical love oriented rightly to loving God and loving our neighbor and not loving and wanting to protect ourselves so we don't say anything or we be nice and I'm using my finger quits when I say that.
we say sweet, right? We got to be sweet and that that sweetness is not always biblical love or kindness to the other person.
brenda_payne (21:42.77)
I think you bring up a great point in that sometimes people pleasing is so cultural and we don't need to be cultural Christians. We need to be biblical Christians. And so sometimes we just have to challenge what we've learned in our family or in our culture that would lead us to believe that this is actually good and right instead of harmful. So Alice, we want to share two tools about how to overcome people pleasing or the fear of man. I'm going to share a tool and then you're going to share a tool.
alex_kocher (21:54.033)
Yeah.
alex_kocher (22:04.796)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (22:12.65)
So since we've already established that love is the antidote for fear, I really just use two simple questions to work through my fear of man. Jesus said the two greatest commands are to love God and to love your neighbor. And so whenever I see, you know, people pleasing, sneaking back into my thinking, which it still does, I'm very thankful that the Lord has made a lot of progress in my life and that I'm not ruled by it. There was a time that I was absolutely ruled by the approach.
and the fear of disapproval. But so the first question that I will ask myself, if I'm in a situation and I begin to know that I'm being influenced by other people and wanting just to get their approval or avoid their disapproval, I will ask myself, how is God calling me to love this person right now? And usually it's really just to rest in the assurance of his love for me, regardless of what others think about me
alex_kocher (23:07.726)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
brenda_payne (23:12.65)
how they might treat me. You know, the more I'm rooted and grounded in his love, the more secure I am in who he's made me to be. And I've also realized that the struggle with the fear of man has been God's invitation for me to know deeper truths. And, you know, I don't have to worry or ruminate. I can be still and remember his love and sacrifice for me. And so kind of just going back to the gospel,
alex_kocher (23:32.932)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (23:42.458)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (23:42.83)
like I go back and I have to remind myself of those basic gospel truths because as Paul Tripp would say, I am a spiritual amnesiac. That I forget to remember the gospel and what Christ has done for me. And that just makes a huge difference. Like our ability to love well is how much we understand that we've been loved well. And so that's question number one. And then question number two, I asked
alex_kocher (23:45.774)
Right.
alex_kocher (23:54.856)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (24:12.65)
Yeah, yeah, wish you would. I wish you would, Alex. Ha, ha, ha, ha.
alex_kocher (24:13.132)
Can I say something right there, Brenda? Yeah, I think that, thanks. I think that what's really helpful is to think about that crisis loved me well in the particular of people pleasing. Like he walked through life experiencing the rejection of people who he probably wanted their favor. Like we tend to forget that he was so human
brenda_payne (24:34.691)
Yes.
alex_kocher (24:43.572)
And he experienced the rejection of church leaders. He experienced the rejection of family and friends. He experienced the rejection of really the whole Hebrew people rejected him. And so, I think it's really helpful to not just think of Christ's love in the abstract, but in the particular of the ways that he understood what it feels like to feel the disapproval, to not get the approval that he wanted,
brenda_payne (24:48.278)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (24:55.45)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (25:02.155)
Yeah.
alex_kocher (25:13.212)
that in order to rescue me.
brenda_payne (25:13.59)
Yeah, yeah, thank you for pointing that out. I think that's great. Yeah, so we can take our minds back there, I think in a thousand different ways to remind ourselves of that sort of truth, in the general and in the particular, and we see when we do that, and we ask the Holy Spirit to make those truths alive to us, we really are comforted and given boldness, because we're gonna need some boldness, which is the power of the Holy Spirit,
alex_kocher (25:40.495)
Right.
brenda_payne (25:43.57)
actually move forward with question number two. As a people pleaser, how is God calling me to interact with my neighbor in a way that is truly loving? Not how is God asking me to interact to please my neighbor, but to love my neighbor. There's a distinction here. And that might mean I need to say no or confront someone with the truth or be willing to state a different opinion.
alex_kocher (25:44.617)
Yeah.
alex_kocher (25:49.177)
Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (26:01.454)
Mm-hmm. Yeah
alex_kocher (26:11.612)
Yeah, I think about the story of the rich young ruler there. And I remind myself of this often because it talks about that Jesus looked on him with love. He loved him. And then he said something really hard. And then the rich young ruler doesn't say, oh, thank you for saying that hard thing to me. He basically turns away. And it says, I think the scripture says he goes away sad and that Jesus didn't chase it after him and say, oh, you don't have to be sad. I'm sorry. I didn't mean it.
brenda_payne (26:33.657)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (26:39.776)
Yeah.
alex_kocher (26:41.512)
But you know, like he lets him go and he lets him go unhappy. And I just try to remember that a lot that Jesus, there he, it seems very, very gentle. But then he also says some really bold and in your face things to the church leaders who were not honoring God and loving people well. And he does not apologize for it.
brenda_payne (27:04.89)
Yeah, yes, we have his example and we have his resurrected power to be bold where the Lord has called us to be bold and we're bold not for our own selfish ends, we're bold because it's what God wants. It honors the Lord when we speak truth and it helps other people and that's really what happened in my marriage. Both, it wasn't just my transformation, it was also my husband's transformation. It was both of us, you know, with my husband
alex_kocher (27:12.514)
Yes.
brenda_payne (27:34.99)
Loving God meant I trusted him with my fears of Confrontation or saying no and repented of my selfishness like I had to say to the Lord like God I'm being selfish here I don't want to step into this space because it will make me feel uncomfortable And I don't like being uncomfortable proceed particularly relationally uncomfortable But there is going to be a lot of disruption and it will mean you will have to sit and be a little bit uncomfortable Or a lot uncomfortable
alex_kocher (27:54.601)
Right.
brenda_payne (28:04.79)
times if you're going to love people well. So it also meant I would have to choose to live from God's approval, from his approval, even if others don't approve of me. So you know with with my husband it was I was just gonna have to be okay if he didn't approve or if he disapproved because I could live from God's approval and move forward. It also meant I had to learn to say no to
alex_kocher (28:17.593)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
alex_kocher (28:30.927)
Mm-hmm.
brenda_payne (28:34.85)
agent that God wanted me to be as a true helpmate, even if he disapproved of me. And so Paul will tell you I learned to confront him and he'll tell you he's a better man for it. Thanks Lou. But seriously, he would tell you, I'll never forget we were in a, we actually went to see Lou as a couple to kind of work through all this once the discovery was made. And I remember Paul looking at me and saying, you know, Brenda, I want to see you.
alex_kocher (28:42.617)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (28:49.198)
Yes!
brenda_payne (29:04.75)
I love you and my heart fully trust in you, but, and I'm not blaming you, but your unwillingness to confront me has actually been a hindrance for me to grow in my Christian walk. And he invited me at that point. He was like, I need you. I need you to say the hard things. I need you to speak into the areas of brokenness and sinfulness and selfishness and pride and help me become the man that God wants me to be. So I became a better woman too, because the reality is,
alex_kocher (29:17.253)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
alex_kocher (29:33.259)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (29:34.85)
just read in the first John verses that fear shrinks our capacity to love. And the measure of Christian maturity is how well we love. So if we are constantly operating out of fear, it actually stunts our spiritual growth. And only by overcoming fear with love are we actually going to grow in spiritual maturity.
alex_kocher (29:54.254)
Yeah.
alex_kocher (30:01.172)
Right? I love that tool Brenda because it is really, it takes us back to so the basics. I mean the basics. How am I going to love God and how am I going to love others? And so we can carry that with us wherever we go. Several years ago though, I did another tool on a women's retreat that I've really grown to love. It's actually a little bit uncomfortable to do this. I have to admit, but I think it's really worthwhile and I actually had someone
brenda_payne (30:06.912)
Yes.
brenda_payne (30:11.271)
Yep.
alex_kocher (30:31.332)
two or three weeks ago and she was like holy cow. And so the tool is to write an anti Psalm 23. So we know Psalm 23 is this beautiful picture of the promises and the provision and the protection of our good shepherd and our good shepherd Jesus. But we also see these other scriptures where we see the description
us hungry, they leave us desperate, they leave us in bondages we talked about today. So this exercise is just a way to put into words the destruction of a false shepherd in our lives. Another way to say it would be it's a way to put into words the destruction of idolatry in our lives. So what what what we do is we think about the behaviors and even the bondage that comes from
alex_kocher (31:31.212)
myself trying to gain approval. So that could be a person like you just shared, Brenda. Paul was your vehicle for gaining approval and so you could write an anti-salm if Paul Payne is my shepherd. This is what my life is like. But I've also had women write if social media is my shepherd, if I'm seeking approval through social media, if a clean house is my shepherd and to actually reflect the
alex_kocher (32:01.172)
shepherding you. So I want to read two examples because I think you'll see how uncomfortable it is to do this. So the first one is if social media is my shepherd the anti-SOM 23. Social media is my shepherd I feel so needy. She makes me stand around and take selfies. She leads me to check Facebook and Instagram a thousand times a day. She strips my soul.
Me and paths of insecurity for the sake of a few more likes. Yes, even when I get a thousand followers I still feel unloved for someone always has more. Instagram and Facebook, they do not comfort me. I prepare a meal to eat with my friends and we have nothing to say to each other. Surely my cell phone will stay with me all the hours of my day and I will dwell in this house
brenda_payne (32:50.35)
Hehehe
alex_kocher (33:01.353)
of misery forever.
brenda_payne (33:01.856)
I love it, Alex.
alex_kocher (33:05.612)
I, it is so good. I did not write it, but I could. I mean, but I think it's so good to put words to it. It almost brings out the ridiculousness of our idolatries. So I did not write that one, but I, and I could have, but this one I really could have written and my children will attest to this. This is the perfect hostess anti song. A perfect house is my shepherd.
brenda_payne (33:06.77)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
brenda_payne (33:11.613)
Yeah.
Yes.
alex_kocher (33:35.752)
will never rest. She makes me lie down only if all my chores are done. She leads me to look at Pinterest and make detailed project pages. She guides me to make lists for my husband for his own good. Yes, even when I walk through a spotless house, I will find something wrong because Joanna Gaines is always with me. Her show and her magazine comfort me.
brenda_payne (33:44.05)
Hehehe
alex_kocher (34:05.632)
pair of meals, but I'm afraid to invite anyone over. They might see the carpet. The laundry overflows. Surely, fretting and envy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in this money pit forever." They're so good.
brenda_payne (34:20.35)
That's awesome. Ha ha ha.
Alex, I love those. That's just so great. Oh man. So...
alex_kocher (34:31.572)
Yeah, I think it's good for us to really lean into the ridiculousness and the bondage and the entrapment that we experience and yes, to be able to laugh at it and laugh at ourselves, but also just to realize it's true. There's misery when these things shepherd us, when the approval of these things is what captures our hearts. So that we are striving after them all of our day.
brenda_payne (34:35.149)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
brenda_payne (34:45.052)
Yes.
brenda_payne (34:49.171)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (34:59.092)
Yeah.
alex_kocher (35:01.152)
So as as anyone who's listened to this season knows one thing we've tried to do is we've tried to give these tools for the soul and that would be the two questions. We're writing the anti-sum and we'll give a little worksheet to help walk someone through writing their anti-sum 23 if they'd like to try it for themselves. And those are our sole tools but we also want to give a body tool and today our body tool is just to recognize that this people pleasing
in a state where that it continues to drive us, it makes us feel frenzied. And so we're encouraging people to a place of just really sinking into Sabbath rest and rhythms in their lives. What I've found is that these habits of creating rhythms in our day and in our week, rhythms of being God's word, rhythms of silence and even solitude, and rhythms of setting aside a day
that is just for the worship of God, helped to reorient our heart back to making God big and people small. And so I think about even in the Psalm 23 that the true shepherd gives us rest. He gives us protection. He gives us provision and care and that we don't have to strive after it. I think about the Psalm is saying, see striving or be still and know that I am God and that what Sabbath
alex_kocher (36:30.392)
to put God back in his rightful place, to order our worship correctly, and to quiet that soul noise that is telling us that we have to have something else other than his love, that we have to have something else other than his approval. And I also love the tie back in that if we're going to celebrate Sabbath well, we are going to engage in good gospel community. In gospel community
alex_kocher (37:00.532)
well. And again, we remember that that's what we were made for, that that's the true longing of our hearts and not the counterfeit of seeking approval. So I hope that even as people incorporate these sole tools, that they will really recognize that their bodies were made for rhythms and for rest, for Sabbath rest.
brenda_payne (37:18.93)
agree with you Alex this has been a fun episode because it has definitely been a great reminder to me of just what the Lord has done in my own life in this area and an encouragement. I hope it's been an encouragement to our hearers as well. We are going to put some links in our show notes. We will link the Ed Welch book, we'll link the worksheets for the anti-Solom and the two questions and we also have a little people pleasing inventory from Lou Priolo. We'll link as well
alex_kocher (37:32.401)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (37:48.93)
his fear booklet. So hopefully if you're looking for some good homework to do, those will be some resources and some ways to delve into your own people pleasing issue. And yeah, so we're glad that you joined us today and we just hope and pray that this is useful to your walk with Christ, your own personal growth, and as you meet with other people in your sphere of influence to show them the
alex_kocher (37:52.857)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (38:18.95)
and being transformed more into his image.