S4Bonus — Known Ministries

S4 Bonus Elyse Fitzpatrick

Alex Kocher (00:37.387)

Can y'all hear me? Because I froze. You okay? Okay. Alright. I'll give a space and we can start.

Brenda Payne (00:37.609)

Yes.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (00:37.770)

can hear you.

Alex Kocher (00:47.787)

Well Brenda, this is a fun day for us because we get to have a special guest with us, Elise Fitzpatrick. And I know you'll probably say similar things, but for me, Lisa, you've been someone who I feel like has gone before me in every stage of my biblical counseling journey. And it has been just, it's just been fun to learn from you. It's been challenging at times.

Alex Kocher (01:17.701)

talk to us about just all that you've learned and ways that you've changed in the years of biblical counseling.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:22.414)

Oh, thanks.

Brenda Payne (01:22.513)

Absolutely.

Yes, we're so excited at least to have you. I was noticing that we both started in our biblical counseling journey about the same year, but then you just shot off and became my mentor very quickly as I just tried to just look at you from a distance and just admired the work you were doing. And you know, I just remember when women helping women came out back in the 90s. I don't know that anything had actually been written for women in biblical counseling at that time. And it was like

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:37.094)

Oh!

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:52.714)

Yeah, no.

Brenda Payne (01:54.750)

and you know just I think Alex and I both have had the privilege of sitting under your teaching at conferences but also both of us have had you come to our different churches when I was in Montgomery you came to Eastwood and you've been to Young Meadows and so that's been exciting to just to even get to know you on a church level and I always remember being really impressed because when you came to my church in Montgomery one of the things that you said is you had to be home on Sundays because you wanted to be home to worship it with your people you know your women in your church and that always really

resonated with me, but you've been a huge advocate for many years for the education and training of women and men as well. And I don't think we're overstating it or flattering you by saying you really have been the most influential woman in the biblical counseling movement to tell to really help teach women how to walk alongside and help other women from a biblical worldview perspective. And, and that's really what our podcast is all about conversational counseling. That's what we're trying to do is.

help women see that you don't have to be a professional, that God has given us what we need to walk alongside other people. And we'd just love for our listeners to know a little bit about what your journey has looked like.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (03:07.630)

Thank you, my goodness, what kind words. I wanna make a joke about how I always did think I was the most influential person in the world, but. Yeah, goodness, yeah. I always thought that, I'm so glad you saw it. That's really funny.

Brenda Payne (03:25.286)

Yes she does.

Alex Kocher (03:25.982)

She fits right in with us. It's all about us, Elise. We always say that. It's all about us.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (03:37.758)

Yeah, you know, when I, that's interesting. We started biblical counseling around the same time. I think it was about 1986. I felt a call. I got saved when I was, right before my 21st birthday in 1971. And went to Bible college, but was always in a situation where people were coming to me for help.

and I didn't have any answers. So I was going to go take classes in psychology to try to help the people, women who were coming to me and my pastor at that time said, no, you should go check out what at that time was CCEF, Christian Counseling Educational Foundation, had an office in San Diego. So I went there, I was really resistant.

to going. I was really resistant to going because I figured I already had a degree that I couldn't make any money off of so why would I do more? And so he really encouraged me to do it, thought it would be a bad idea for me to, I had little kids at the time, so thought it would be a bad idea for me to, you know, leave them and go to school.

Brenda Payne (04:45.408)

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Alex Kocher (04:48.139)

Hahaha!

Elyse Fitzpatrick (05:00.798)

So that was the start of it, 1986, I think. And then fairly soon after I started taking classes here in San Diego, I was hired to sort of run the office. And I worked with George Sipioni, who was a disciple of Jay Adams from CCEF in Philly. And...

From there began, continued my training, but also then began writing. And it was really off of the training that I took to get certified by CCEF, that the writing happened, started writing, and then women helping women. And you are right, when I first wrote Women Helping Women, myself and Carol Cornish and a group of other women.

There really was nothing in the biblical counseling world for women. It was very male, androcentric. It was, well, there wasn't that much published anyway in the biblical counseling world. And what was published was published by Jay or Wayne.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (06:28.310)

Somebody or other. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Wayne Mack. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and that was it. And I remember, yeah, I just remember reading things at that time that were so almost dismissive of women. I don't mean that they were trying to be dismissive of women, I just think they were.

Brenda Payne (06:29.052)

Wayne Mack, yeah, and Jay Adams, yep, yep. Those are like the only people we had. Lou Priolo's, I worked with him, we had his little cassettes. It was like three or four people that you could go to.

Alex Kocher (06:32.483)

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Elyse Fitzpatrick (06:57.686)

writing as guys who never thought about women doing counseling, put it that way. So Women Helping Women came out and then of course from there the rest of the books came. In 1990 I knew I was going to be writing and so I decided to

Elyse Fitzpatrick (07:26.418)

I decided to go ahead and get a master's in biblical counseling from Trinity Newbird. And so I did that. The master's was really there because I felt like I was going to be writing. So I did do counseling. I did not do a lot of counseling.

at CCEF where I was working. I did counseling in local churches through the years. I don't keep clinical hours now primarily because I get a headache, seriously. So I don't do a lot of

Elyse Fitzpatrick (08:22.594)

about 1985 until now maybe 40 years of asking the question what do what do women need to hear and how can I get it out to them which is really what I wanted to do so it was writing and then the speaking came off of the writing so at that point if you were a woman who was writing on biblical counseling

Brenda Payne (08:29.492)

Wow.

Alex Kocher (08:46.329)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (08:51.502)

then yeah, then you were gonna get asked to speak. So then I spoke at all the biblical counseling conferences and all of that continued pretty strongly until I made the turn toward the gospel, which sounds weird, but kind of what happened. I was a Christian, I was a Christian,

Brenda Payne (09:13.704)

Yeah, I think Alex and I would say that having read your work along the way, and even having seen you along the way, we definitely witnessed the shift that went on in your ministry and in your personal transformation, with the gospel becoming more central to your message. And we would love to know more about, you know, how that happened and how...

Alex Kocher (09:15.460)

Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (09:34.649)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (09:38.600)

you've been impacted to see the gospel as central. We talk about comfort and change, the gospel being central to comfort and change. And yeah, what was your journey like there and what changed? Because it was so noticeable, Elise. It was very noticeable, just so you'll know. And it was beautiful because I think what it communicated to those of us behind you is like, oh, the gospel is about change. And even if I'm helping people, like that's the whole point that I am changing along the way too. But tell us more about that.

Alex Kocher (09:53.811)

Yes. Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (10:01.387)

Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (10:08.426)

Yeah, it's so funny that you saw it the way that you did. I had a group of friends. I used to have a group of female friends, and we would gather together weekly for book study. And so one of those friends in particular said to me, Elise, you're missing the gospel.

Brenda Payne (10:38.328)

Oh wow.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (10:39.574)

And I said, I don't know what you're talking about. That's stupid, of course I know the gospel. I'm really, again, very resistant. You see a theme in my life. God tries to do something in my life and I resist. So that's kind of how it went. So she started feeding me books, particularly let's, Tim Keller was huge in that.

Alex Kocher (10:42.738)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (10:45.802)

Mm-hmm

Brenda Payne (10:52.200)

Hahaha

Alex Kocher (10:58.955)

hahahaha

Elyse Fitzpatrick (11:10.106)

So she gave me, she gave me killer things to read and listen to and other authors. And I began to see, and honestly, just by the work of the Spirit, because I was not looking for it. Honestly, you know, again, even from, even from my salvation, I wasn't looking for God. And, you know, people would talk, my neighbor would talk to me about Jesus, and I'd be like, God, Jesus. And that's...

Alex Kocher (11:12.044)

Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (11:38.506)

sort of how it's gone for me. So anyway, she gave me Keller books, that sort of thing. And then I thought.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (11:48.070)

I went to a publisher and I said, I want to write a book about the intersection of justification and sanctification. And honestly, you know, that sounds good, but who knows if I even knew what I was talking about. And so the author said, the publisher said yes.

off of that came because he loves me. Thank you. The amazing thing was that I got paid to spend about a year thinking, reading, writing, pondering, the love of God in Christ. That, that's what changed me because I began to really see the gospel.

Brenda Payne (12:18.460)

Yes, great book. Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (12:42.445)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (12:45.726)

And so that was, I want to say about 2009, something like that, 2008 maybe.

Alex Kocher (12:56.823)

Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (12:59.038)

And it was like a light went on. You know, it's so funny, all of these different turns, when I began to see that the Bible really spoke to my personal life, one time, I think I was talking to with Dave Pallison, I may be wrong about that, my memory is so terrible, but it occurs to me, I was talking to Dave Pallison, and I said, it's almost like being born again, again, when I saw how scripture really spoke personally to me.

then when I saw the love of God in Christ. That was another one of those radical turns. So writing because he loves me, spending a year just contemplating the love of God in Christ, learning what justification meant, which of course it means not only just as if I never sinned but also just as if I always obeyed.

Alex Kocher (13:36.242)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (13:38.237)

Mmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (14:00.070)

That imputed righteousness. Now you can say to somebody, you have imputed righteousness and they go, yeah, yeah, or they might look at you like, eyes glaze over, have no idea what you're talking about. But justification, just as if I had always obeyed, when I came to really wrestle with that imputed righteousness, that just as if I had always obeyed-ness of myself before God, that...

changed me. And you know it's so funny and I'll talk about how it changed me but it's so funny because Luther says that justification is the the linchpin or the fulcrum upon which Christianity rises and falls and yet most of our counselees or most of people in just broader

Elyse Fitzpatrick (14:59.286)

Justification was the issue. So when I began to understand, not only were my sins forgiven, but also that I was counted righteous, I was counted obedient, that began a change in me. It began to drain the anger and fear and self-righteousness from my heart. So that...

Alex Kocher (15:01.149)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (15:15.253)

Right.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (15:28.298)

I could then be transparent about my lack of perfection. And not only that, not only did I understand that I was counted perfectly obedient, but then it changed how I was with other people. So if I...

Alex Kocher (15:36.158)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (15:56.179)

I know that I used to think, and I don't think I'd ever would have said this exactly, but it used to kind of be, if I have to work this hard, why aren't you?

Elyse Fitzpatrick (16:08.090)

Right? Right? I mean, if I'm killing myself here, then why aren't you? That began to change when I realized that, and I wanna be careful how I say this, but when I realized that I didn't have to kill myself. And that's, please, not saying that we shouldn't try to be obedient or try to be holy.

Brenda Payne (16:09.011)

Hmm.

Alex Kocher (16:09.676)

Mm-hmm, yes. Yes.

Brenda Payne (16:28.512)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (16:31.155)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (16:37.056)

Of course.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (16:38.470)

It's just that I began to understand that Elise, with all of her failure and brokenness, was actually loved and accepted and welcomed, and the fear that somehow I wasn't making it, and that I had to try harder in order to make it. And if you would have said to me,

Alex Kocher (17:02.929)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (17:07.210)

at some point before the turn, do you think God loves you? I would have said, oh yeah, yeah, God loves me, but that wasn't really where the action was. The action wasn't that God loved me, the action was that I had to get the bus down the road. So, then in becoming more transparent, I could enter into suffering with other people.

Brenda Payne (17:15.536)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (17:18.284)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (17:24.752)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (17:27.255)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (17:34.782)

I could enter into communion with their suffering. I'd like to say I do that perfectly, or obviously saying all this as, I wish I did this better, but I could enter into the lives of the suffering. I could lament with them without saying, okay, yeah, I'm really sad. I'm truly sorry that that's what's going on in your life, but here's how to get your act.

together, which is where I would have been. And it made me far more patient because I was able to admit I had become strong enough, when I'm in my right mind, strong enough to admit how broken I am. Not afraid of that anymore. So strong enough to admit how broken I am.

Brenda Payne (18:05.268)

Right.

Alex Kocher (18:08.206)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Alex Kocher (18:12.196)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (18:32.641)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (18:34.546)

and then to see how patient God has been with me, and then that translates into patience with others. That, that's the deal. And that's why the gospel, if we forget the gospel, and it's like I talk about, you know, if you forget the declarations about who you are and what Christ has done for you,

Alex Kocher (18:42.225)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (18:48.067)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (19:02.674)

If you forget your justification and only focus on the commands, the imperatives, if you forget the indicative and focus on the imperative, then there's going to be all sorts of really ugly fruit that flows out of that. Impatience, self-righteousness, that sort of business. And I mean, I saw it in my life.

Alex Kocher (19:12.498)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (19:23.793)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (19:31.002)

I still see it in my life in times when I look at other people who all they want to do is talk about the imperatives and I go, well, what's wrong with you? So you know, that's, I still see it. God is still working on it, but it doesn't crush me to admit that.

Alex Kocher (19:43.883)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (19:50.666)

because he's made me strong enough. Is that a long answer to your question?

Brenda Payne (19:50.812)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (19:52.501)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (19:56.688)

No, that's great. I was just sitting here thinking about how in season one, Alex and I did a podcast called the shuns where we went through justification, sanctification and glorification. And I'm pretty sure that a lot of the sanctification part we just pulled straight out of. We gave you credit because he loves me, comforts from the cross, counsel from the cross. But I know for me, you shaped a lot of my thinking on those things, making it very tangible, making it very understandable. This idea that we we work not for approval, but from approval.

Alex Kocher (19:56.721)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (20:16.470)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (20:17.206)

Hmm.

Alex Kocher (20:24.143)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (20:26.358)

right.

Brenda Payne (20:26.562)

when we're overwhelmed with his love for us. And I love what you said to take a whole year, like what would it do to each of us if we could take or would take a whole year? And we can, because if we come to the scriptures and we will look for God's love for us in Christ in it, I think we would see more of it. But I think it kind of typifies a little bit of where the early days of the biblical counseling movement actually were. Even though they came out of a view of justification, sanctification, glorification,

Elyse Fitzpatrick (20:28.930)

right.

Alex Kocher (20:31.477)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (20:53.771)

Mm-hmm

Brenda Payne (20:56.602)

a lot of heavy weightedness toward the obedient side of things.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (21:02.314)

Yeah, that's exactly right. And one time I was having a conversation with a well-known biblical counselor, sort of early on when I was making the turn, or maybe had just made the turn. And he said, he said, I don't know why you talk about justification all the time. And I said, well, I think it's important. And he said, well, justification is my operating system.

Alex Kocher (21:04.466)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (21:31.746)

Those were his exact words. Justification is my operating system. And I thought, yeah, that's cool for you. I wonder how many people that you even counsel or that you talk to or even are in your family know that justification should be our operating system. See, and it's that assumption. It's the assumption that.

The people who come to us for help are coming to us from a place of understanding, of knowing and understanding how forgiven they are, that they're completely forgiven, completely forgiven and counted, completely obedient, completely welcomed, completely loved, adopted, all of those wonderful things from the New Testament. I just don't, I don't think,

Alex Kocher (22:16.389)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (22:25.564)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (22:31.830)

Generally speaking, we talk about it enough. And when we don't, and I've said this, when the gospel doesn't hold the center of what we believe and how we operate, when the gospel doesn't hold the center, something else will, like other things, tribalism.

Brenda Payne (22:57.013)

That's right.

Alex Kocher (22:58.336)

Yes.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (23:01.855)

et cetera.

Alex Kocher (23:04.559)

Yeah. Yeah. And Elise, I love that you're you're reiterating something. We say a lot first.

Alex Kocher (23:13.083)

It has to come to your heart first. It will not flow out of you to other people unless it changes your heart first. We have to counsel, learn how to counsel ourselves from the gospel first. But secondly, I think you're touching on something so important, and that is that our theology is going to influence our practice. And as the gospel became center, you said, I began to be able to sit with sufferers.

Alex Kocher (23:43.057)

And that is so true because I could see it in my own life. I could see this emphasis on, sure you're a saint. Yeah, whatever, you're a saint. But you know you're a sinner, you know, you're a sinner. And yeah, I guess you're suffering too, but you're probably suffering because you're sinned. Let's be honest, right?

Elyse Fitzpatrick (23:52.615)

Camera. Right. Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (23:58.582)

Because you sinner. Right. Right.

Brenda Payne (24:00.332)

Hehehehehehehehe

Alex Kocher (24:04.483)

And I can see that shift in my own life as I began to be able to receive the gospel. And I am a classic older brother. I am a legalist in my heart of hearts. That is who I am. And as I began to be able to receive the gospel and sit with, you're my beloved daughter. I am well pleased with you because of Christ. I saw that shift in my own life too where I could sit with people who were suffering

Elyse Fitzpatrick (24:28.512)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (24:34.957)

I could relate to them as a whole person, as a whole being, and and not have to go on a sin hunt, but be able to say life in this world is hard. Life in the now and not yet is hard, and it's okay for me to sit in the ashes with you and just lament with you. Just just mourn and grieve. And it was because my theology changed.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (24:39.948)

Right.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (24:45.047)

Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (25:00.734)

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, I think that, and I don't want to say that all biblical counseling is my experience. But my experience was you walk into a room, you hear what's going on, and you try to help the person figure out what they're doing wrong. And um.

Alex Kocher (25:27.186)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (25:27.414)

And you know, that's not necessarily bad, but that shouldn't be the first thing we ever think of. And then to live with the tension of suffering, of lament. To live in that tension of lamenting with people who may or may not ever find

freedom from that season of lament, but to be okay with that. I think that sometimes we feel like if people aren't having this really great life, if they're not being successful in, shouldn't say it like that, if they're not being successful in their sanctification, in their growth in Christ, then

Alex Kocher (26:01.405)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (26:24.322)

then I need to fix that.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (26:28.110)

Which, you know, that actually, that actually dovetails a lot with my personality. And that was that is something that God is working on, has worked on that I can be.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (26:44.366)

comfortable without trying to move past lament and just be comfortable in the brokenness of where we are. I mean, I don't know when this is going to come out. When we're recording, it's Holy Week. And part of...

Alex Kocher (26:49.020)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (27:02.935)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (27:11.766)

the Eastern Orthodox Church, part of what they talk about during the season of Lent from Ash Wednesday to Easter is something they call bright sadness. And so I think that's where I'm trying to learn to live is that I can be, I can lament and I can be comfortable with brokenness. Not that I say.

Oh, broken is just part of the world. Let's not do anything about that. I'm not saying that, but I just, just don't, I don't feel like I got to fix everything and make it right in order to prove that God is good or that I'm good or anything like that. I don't need to do that anymore. So live in that lament about the brokenness, but then also have this bright joy that is.

part of that to somehow put those two things together, joy and lament. Psalm 137, in that Psalm, you know, the exiles in Babylon are saying, we sat down by the river and wept, and they actually hid their harps in the trees because they had been tormented.

by their captor saying, sing us some songs. And so they would hide their musical instruments. And then they asked this question, the psalmist asked this question, how am I supposed to, how are we supposed to sing the songs of Zion in a foreign land, in exile? See, and that's what we have to learn to do. We have to learn with our counselees.

Alex Kocher (29:00.592)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (29:06.422)

with ourselves first and you're so right about that. It's gotta be here first. We have to learn, yeah, this is a broken, sad, this is a broken, sad place, but it's also God's place. So I want to lament and sing. So how do we sing in the midst of this lament?

Alex Kocher (29:27.115)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (29:34.002)

And it's easy for me, I'm probably talking about this too much, but it's easy for me to just stay in the lament, because I tend to be kind of pessimistic, so it's easy for me to just stay in the lament. On the other hand, I know that there are people that hate the lament and only want to sing. But I think that the life of Jesus, and of course he's the only one that does this right, I think that the life of Jesus tells us...

Alex Kocher (29:56.777)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (30:04.026)

that there's both. There is lament with people who have made their lives just a train wreck, or people who have had their lives made a train wreck by someone else or circumstances. So to sit with them and lament, but then also to say,

Brenda Payne (30:06.558)

Hmm.

Alex Kocher (30:18.541)

Hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (30:30.898)

Yeah, but we can have joy. And the reason we can have joy is coming up on Sunday because of the resurrection. So because of the resurrection, because that is an established fact, then I know that lament isn't all there is. And I am called to look forward to that life of blessing. And

Alex Kocher (30:41.308)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (31:00.947)

joy that will be ours, that is ours, is becoming ours, and that will be wholly ours in the life to come.

Brenda Payne (31:12.228)

Amen. That was a great Easter sermon. Thank you. Bright sadness. I like that. Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (31:14.602)

You're welcome. Bright sadness. Bright sadness. Check it out. Yeah, it's a cool thing.

Alex Kocher (31:17.099)

Hehehehe

Brenda Payne (31:28.314)

Okay.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (31:58.146)

Check, check, check. Now I have an echo.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (32:07.206)

I can't tell you. I assume so because I didn't notice it. That doesn't bother me if you don't hear it.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (32:40.477)

say no.

Brenda Payne (32:44.672)

Alex Kocher (32:46.852)

Hehehehe

Brenda Payne (32:52.584)

I know that just started too, that's weird.

Brenda Payne (32:56.574)

I did it.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (33:01.846)

Okay, let's try that. Is that better? We'll get rid of earrings.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (33:09.986)

Do you want me to take my shirt off? Oh yeah? You want me to take my shirt off? Oh, okay.

Alex Kocher (33:10.451)

Yeah, that's better.

Brenda Payne (33:11.399)

Go ahead and strip down. You didn't want to be on camera anyhow.

Alex Kocher (33:14.913)

Hahaha!

Brenda Payne (33:18.336)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Alex Kocher (33:21.438)

Hmm. Hmm. Ha ha ha.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (33:25.154)

Talk, talk, talk, talk, blah, blah, blah, ABC, blah, blah, blah, blah. Where do you see?

Brenda Payne (33:28.928)

Hehehehe. Hehehehe.

Brenda Payne (33:41.052)

Yeah, I felt like the echo is back a little bit more, but maybe as we started talking, we just weren't paying attention to it. So I think mostly if it's good with you. Alex, I just try and figure out where we're gonna jump back in. Do you wanna just go on? Do y'all wanna talk anymore about the biblical counseling movement or just move on? Cause I really, I think moving on to four, I'd like to spend more time in those areas of how women can get equipped and all that.

Alex Kocher (33:42.916)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (33:49.044)

Yeah.

Brenda Payne (34:07.304)

But at least you were about to say something right when we stopped, but I don't remember. It was about Easter. So we could just we just finished up about Easter and now we can been talking about lament and walking with people. So Alex, you want to launch us off on question four?

Elyse Fitzpatrick (34:07.551)

No, I'm good.

Alex Kocher (34:09.899)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (34:12.973)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (34:26.065)

Mm-hmm. Do I need to segue or can it be pretty abrupt?

Brenda Payne (34:28.508)

You could segue with something about, you know, walking with women through suffering and also sin struggles is, you know, what our ministry is about. And then go into it because she's been talking about that. We talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bright sadness. Okay.

Alex Kocher (34:40.903)

I think the last thing you said was bright sadness. I'll just, yeah.

Alex Kocher (34:46.300)

Okay.

Alex Kocher (34:48.723)

Well, I like that bright sadness. I think that as we think about walking with women in the bright sadness, in the sorrow, in the rejoicing, in the suffering and the rejoicing, how do you recommend, Elise, that women would grow in both their confidence and their competence to walk alongside other women?

Elyse Fitzpatrick (35:12.138)

Yeah, thanks. Confidence, let's start with how do we grow in confidence? I think that we have to say that we grow in confidence when we understand that God is going to use our work in whatever way he wants to so it doesn't have to be about how good we are at

saying the exact right thing.

Brenda Payne (35:46.112)

That's good.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (35:46.334)

I won't have any confidence at all about anything. If I, I mean, maybe I would, but then I would be terrified, and terrified that I'm not doing it right or proud when I think I am. I think that when we look for confidence, we remember that it is God's work.

Alex Kocher (35:46.339)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (36:12.878)

to do what he wants to do with what we do. I remember a time when I had had what I would call a really difficult counseling session. Not that the person was difficult, but I just didn't feel like I had anything to say and whatever, I'm watching my watch, that kind of thing. Let's be honest. And...

Elyse Fitzpatrick (36:42.091)

And the person came back the next week and said that was the best counseling session ever.

Brenda Payne (36:42.696)

Hehehehe

Alex Kocher (36:44.094)

I'm going to go.

Alex Kocher (36:54.168)

Ha ha!

Elyse Fitzpatrick (36:54.566)

Exactly, exactly. And that's what we have to remember is, yeah, we can and should prepare. We can and should know the scriptures. We can and should pray and ask for wisdom. But the reality is that nothing is going to happen if the Holy Spirit doesn't work.

Brenda Payne (36:54.692)

Thank you, Holy Spirit.

Alex Kocher (36:58.771)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (37:24.162)

the Holy Spirit works in combination with our gifting, our skills, our preparation. The Holy Spirit does work in combination with those things and so we don't ignore them but people's lives will never be changed. Hearts can never be changed by my words, by our words. They are only changed by the Spirit. So confidence. How do I have confidence?

Alex Kocher (37:51.666)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (37:54.825)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (37:55.279)

I prepare, I ask God for wisdom, I try to learn the discipline of listening, I do those things, but then I leave it all in God's hands. So that's how I grow in confidence. How do I grow in competence? I read. I read widely and deeply.

Alex Kocher (38:09.118)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (38:16.191)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (38:25.210)

I read, of course, scripture. And don't just like read scripture, but study. Study scripture. But also read widely. Read fiction. Good fiction books. Yeah, and I'm not, I was about ready to make a remark. Back that bus up.

Alex Kocher (38:25.912)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (38:28.908)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (38:46.414)

Hehehehehehe

Alex Kocher (38:47.370)

Mm-hmm. Amen to that. Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (38:51.400)

Go ahead, go ahead.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (38:52.146)

not talking about reading cheesy fiction romance, okay? That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about reading fiction that really opens your eyes to the human heart. I just, and I know I'm late to this party, but I just read a man called Uwe. That book is...

Alex Kocher (38:53.719)

Hahaha

Brenda Payne (38:58.344)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (39:12.091)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (39:20.953)

Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (39:21.586)

a great book to study the human heart. I mean he does the author does a great job with that. I read widely. I read Brene Brown. Brene I think is a believer. She's Episcopalian I believe. But she is helpful in helping me see things about the human condition that

Alex Kocher (39:41.175)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (39:51.618)

I would not see. And then I want to read people who have been counselors and who are offering help. So like maybe Scott Males book, what is it? Helping Messy People, something like that. Those kinds of books, of course anything by Paul Tripp, those kinds of...

Alex Kocher (40:16.906)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (40:19.854)

books that help me make connections between scripture and life. But I honestly I think the best thing you can do is of course know the Bible, study it, know it, spend time in it, read it, you know, deep dive into certain passages. But then not just know the Bible, know people.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (40:50.666)

And that's where fiction really helps. Right, so my favorite of all time, well, I have two favorite of all time fiction books, of course, Les Mis, Les Miserables. So, I mean, goodness, Javert and Jean Valjean, and just understanding the human heart so beautifully. And then C.S. Lewis's

Alex Kocher (40:54.819)

Mm-hmm. It does.

Alex Kocher (41:09.639)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (41:17.115)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (41:19.510)

till we have faces. Again, so helping me know the human condition, what the human heart is like, and then knowing scripture.

Alex Kocher (41:25.869)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (41:37.104)

I want to know, does watching good fiction movies, do movies count? Because I find that I read a lot more of my Bible and biblical counseling books. I don't read as much fiction, but I love documentaries. I love a well-made movie. I'm so excited that kind of the whole movie industry has become decentralized and Netflix and Amazon and these smaller people are taking over and they're just putting together some amazing, you know, works that really allow us to see the human experience.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (41:38.206)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (41:38.465)

Mm-hmm

Elyse Fitzpatrick (41:47.426)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (41:52.471)

Hmm

Alex Kocher (42:00.418)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (42:03.340)

Yeah.

Brenda Payne (42:07.479)

and so many different places on so many different levels.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (42:09.154)

So, you know, this may or may not be over the edge for people, but you can just say, ah, she lives in Southern California. They don't have any morals at all there. So Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. Okay, they're definitely, yeah, you got to take them with a grain of salt. Viewer be advised.

Alex Kocher (42:10.413)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (42:13.249)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (42:18.112)

I'm going to go to bed.

Alex Kocher (42:22.595)

Hahaha

Brenda Payne (42:25.060)

Uh-huh.

Brenda Payne (42:37.682)

Yeah, viewer be advised. Don't watch them with your children. Yeah. Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (42:40.282)

Oh, absolutely not. But the way that they paint those characters and yeah, the character development and the brokenness and the sadness that comes from the brokenness and they keep trying to do the same thing over and over again, like we all do, to I mean, those kinds of things are just I think really helpful.

Alex Kocher (42:42.143)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (42:45.123)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (42:48.316)

Yeah, the character development.

Brenda Payne (42:54.557)

Yes.

Alex Kocher (42:57.471)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (42:58.269)

Yeah.

Brenda Payne (43:01.832)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Kocher (43:04.630)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (43:06.409)

Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (43:09.234)

Some people, you know, they don't want to watch anything like that and that's great. Don't watch it if it bothers your conscience. I live in Southern California, so, you know, I go to the beach and it's over.

Alex Kocher (43:14.180)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (43:23.843)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Brenda Payne (43:26.447)

Well, I think that Alex and I tend to paint a little bit more outside the lines maybe than some people might be comfortable with, but we're okay with that at this point. I think you get over 50 anyhow and you just, you know, you get a lot more freedom because you get anchored a lot more in the love of Christ for you, I guess. Yeah, I get.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (43:28.018)

Yeah, good.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (43:33.599)

Well, yeah.

Alex Kocher (43:34.282)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (43:37.614)

Yeah, yeah. Well now they're gonna say, there they go, those...okay never mind.

Alex Kocher (43:42.032)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (43:46.149)

I know.

Brenda Payne (43:47.885)

Yeah, I know where you're going with that, and so does Alex, but yeah, we'll stop there.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (43:49.179)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Kocher (43:55.791)

I'm thinking of all the authors I want to talk about so I'm showing incredible self control right now because I'm a fiction girl.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (43:58.925)

Yeah.

Brenda Payne (44:01.652)

Oh, well maybe we can just come back and have another episode just on our favorite of fictional books but I would be curious to...

Elyse Fitzpatrick (44:04.963)

Yes, and and we'll only release it to certain people

Alex Kocher (44:08.426)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (44:10.908)

That's right, a special edition release. Exactly. I think Malia could help us with that.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (44:11.358)

Yeah. People with no conscience.

Alex Kocher (44:13.643)

That's right, that's right.

Alex Kocher (44:17.779)

Yeah. Yes.

Brenda Payne (44:22.744)

Oh my goodness. Well I am curious to know because you've been in the realm of education, certification, training, and maybe explain to our listeners a little bit of like kind of that first and most important part of being competent and confident is a growing and working knowledge of the Word of God for personal heart transformation. And then to your point like no God and His Word, no people, get to know, you know, understand people.

Brenda Payne (44:51.818)

wants to move on, let's say, particularly I think about when you said women would just come to you even before you were a Christian. I was the same way. Even when I was a little girl, women came to me. I wanted to be Ann Landers, you know, dear Ann. And I had nothing to say. It was like wisdom according to this 10-year-old little girl who knew nothing or this 16-year-old or this 18 or this 25-year-old. But what would you say to some of the women who were like, you know what, I'm finding women coming to me all the time. This is clearly a part of my

Elyse Fitzpatrick (44:57.727)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (45:02.646)

Yeah. Right.

Brenda Payne (45:21.538)

to do more training, get more education, what would you recommend?

Elyse Fitzpatrick (45:25.270)

Well, obviously, I think the people at Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation do a great job. So I would recommend them. I would recommend the Association of Biblical Counselors in Dallas. I would recommend them. I haven't been involved with what's going on at...

Brenda Payne (45:41.001)

Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (45:53.942)

Trinity Theological Seminary Newburgh as far as wanting to get a degree in biblical counseling. I know that Southeastern is offering a degree in biblical counseling. So those kinds of things, depending of course on you know your your season of life, can you can you do that sort of thing? I would assume and honestly I don't know at this point.

Alex Kocher (46:11.479)

Mm.

Brenda Payne (46:18.338)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (46:22.562)

But I would assume that there are online courses that you can do if you can't get away to go study somewhere. You folks would probably be more aware of that sort of thing than I am. Is there anybody else you'd wanna add to that?

Brenda Payne (46:29.760)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Alex Kocher (46:36.396)

Hmm.

Brenda Payne (46:39.889)

Mm-hmm. Just what's current.

Brenda Payne (46:44.864)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would say one of my favorite conferences is the faith Bible conference in Lafayette I think they do a really good job and that's where I've got my masters from as well

Elyse Fitzpatrick (46:49.042)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Brenda Payne (46:57.208)

And really sort of your point, there are some other conferences and I think from time to time we'll be putting things up. I think Alex and I both are getting our ABC certification this year as well. Really love Shana, who's, you know, the executive director over there and love the work that they're doing. I know that Alex has had extensive training.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (47:04.294)

Yeah, yeah, good. Yes.

Alex Kocher (47:16.563)

Well, I have to put a plug in for my... Yeah, I put this past year just finished my... I am now a level three certified narrative focused trauma care from the Allender Center. But the Allender Center has...

Elyse Fitzpatrick (47:25.752)

Wow, good for you.

Alex Kocher (47:32.463)

Yeah, they've put together a great menu, I think. Everything from one or two weekends to, I've just spent three years in that training. And so you can get all different levels of training in story work, which is a different tool to have in counseling or just walking with people. But I just really think story speaks to this generation. And so understanding how to use the entry point of stories of harm or wounding are,

is really powerful and I've learned so much. And of course, Dan Allender.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (48:07.687)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (48:07.903)

was trained by a lot of the people at Westminster in Philly, so he has that overlay and then brings it into the field of psychology in a way that I've never heard anybody to that level of skill. But I like the, you're right, Elise, the CCEF in Philly, the certificate levels, you don't even have to get the masters, are all online now, every class, and you can do as much or as little

Elyse Fitzpatrick (48:27.946)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Kocher (48:37.797)

want and you can audit or take for credit. So we are in an age where any level of equipping you want to get you have access to.

Brenda Payne (48:45.360)

Yes, including the conversational counseling podcast. That was just a shameless plug. But but we really are trying to make it like you bring it down. We're just like so much on that level of everyday conversation. I just I want to turn a little bit from that because I think at least is right. We can we will be highlighting different things along the way. And but I think that two things that kind of hold.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (48:49.852)

I'm gonna go.

Alex Kocher (48:50.647)

That's exactly right.

Brenda Payne (49:09.124)

women up from getting involved and stepping into spaces where they can minister as one is, how do I know when I'm ready to help others and that fear of what if I say something or mess up or do something wrong? And how would you speak to those women who are like, oh, you know, I know God's calling me to this. I want to do it, but I don't know if I'm ready and what if I mess up? And all the angst kind of that comes with that.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (49:29.854)

Okay, so I think the ready question is very helpful, is helped when you are in community with other people who do counseling. So you, when I took training in biblical counseling, I had to sit in counseling rooms listening to counsel being given.

Alex Kocher (49:30.851)

Hmm

Elyse Fitzpatrick (49:51.534)

and then my trainer would sit in a counseling room with me and listen to the training. I think that one of the primary things that we can do is be in community with other counselors who are helping us know when we're ready. But I'm just, you know...

Elyse Fitzpatrick (50:20.238)

You're not ever going to be really ready because you're not the wonderful counselor. That job's filled. Which brings us to, let me, I'm going to go back a sec. If you want to be involved in the lives of people who are suffering, you're ready to be there.

Brenda Payne (50:27.731)

Right.

Alex Kocher (50:28.311)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (50:31.751)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (50:51.808)

Hmm. Amen.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (50:51.946)

I mean, if you actually want to be involved in the lives of sufferers, and not just so that you can straighten them out, but that so you can love them, then I think you're really close to having everything you need. We don't need to make this a bigger deal than it is, although, although I'm really happy that you're getting training in specific areas. And so there are people.

Alex Kocher (50:54.604)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (51:03.456)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (51:09.743)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (51:19.342)

who need to be trained in very specific areas to answer very specific needs. But if you're just going to wanna help people, I mean, can you be a friend to a person who suffers? So if you want to be, then I think you're ready to be. Then, you know, what if a woman messes up? Okay, so let's just, you already know what I'm gonna say.

Brenda Payne (51:39.314)

Yeah.

Brenda Payne (51:47.539)

What if?

Elyse Fitzpatrick (51:50.463)

There is no if there. There's no if there. You're going to mess up. The good news is that the Holy Spirit takes those mess ups and accomplishes good through them.

Alex Kocher (51:53.379)

Hahaha

Brenda Payne (51:54.841)

Right. Yep.

Alex Kocher (51:57.866)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (52:05.858)

Does that mean that I don't need to study or I don't need to pray or I don't need to try to be wise? No, of course, that's not what any of that means. But if you think that somehow you can only counsel when you have your act together, your counseling act together, you are going to be...

Brenda Payne (52:06.044)

Yeah, yeah. Praise God.

Alex Kocher (52:08.786)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (52:31.614)

waiting forever, but then the people that you counsel, you'll put pressure on them to be better because you're judging yourself by how they do. So let's just get rid of this whole idea that somehow I'm gonna be this great counselor, and then if people come to me, they're totally always gonna be helped. Maybe they will be, and maybe they won't.

Brenda Payne (52:31.880)

Waiting forever.

Alex Kocher (52:36.531)

Hehehe

Brenda Payne (52:41.151)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (52:43.848)

Yes.

Brenda Payne (52:47.465)

Mm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (53:02.706)

The Holy Spirit has to do the work. And that, boy, that's the really great, that's the good news is that it's not up to us to say the right thing.

Alex Kocher (53:02.853)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (53:21.212)

Yeah, and the mystery of it too.

Alex Kocher (53:21.548)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (53:22.130)

Exactly. Yeah.

Brenda Payne (53:23.592)

you know, that God could use human instruments. It's like that any of us would actually think that we've arrived or that we could be ready if we have the Holy Spirit. We know something about what God's word says and who he is. And like you said, if we're just willing to show up and be present. And as Alex and I would say, we show up, we shut up first, then we speak up. Right. And so more more so in that order. So now I think that I think that's really helpful. Alex, did you want to add anything to that part of our conversation or?

Alex Kocher (53:28.076)

Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (53:32.842)

Yeah. Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (53:39.870)

Yeah. Good. Very good.

Alex Kocher (53:54.083)

Well, when you were talking to Lisa, it made me think about the fact that when we have that mindset that we have to wait until we've arrived, it really is a self-centered mindset. It's missing the right emphasis. It makes the relationship about me again instead of being able to be focused on the person we're sitting with. And so I think that it's almost like we just have to get over ourselves.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (54:02.026)

Yeah. Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (54:10.764)

Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (54:22.219)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (54:24.097)

to get over ourselves and our performance and be really, really there for the other person and I think that's why your counselor was able to come back that day and say that was the best counseling session ever because you know in your mind you're thinking I don't you know what's happening and but she felt like you showed up for her that day and the

Elyse Fitzpatrick (54:35.595)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (54:53.957)

magical words, this beautiful argument you put together. So it is, again, I'm also going back to if we don't ground ourselves here vertically, we have to be grounded here vertically first. If we're ever gonna get over ourselves, it's gonna come and we orient ourselves to who Jesus is. And then we can move out into the horizontal, not worried about us, it's not about us.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (55:17.450)

Right.

Brenda Payne (55:18.076)

Yeah. Well, I think that goes back to what Elise was saying earlier about where does confidence, about the confidence, like maybe we could say we're ready when our confidence is in God and not ourselves. Ha ha ha.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (55:27.035)

Exactly. Exactly.

Alex Kocher (55:27.181)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda Payne (55:30.524)

you know, and that means that I'm humble enough to realize it ain't about me. You know, so, you know, I think that's so good. Well, I was just really curious. I think we just have a few more minutes. At least you have a few more minutes. Okay, good. You wrote give them grace with your daughter and I know it's an area in my life. I sure wish I'd known and understood more about grace. It'd be nice to do life backwards, but then our confidence would be in our self because we know it all then messing up along the way.

Alex Kocher (55:30.997)

Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (55:32.522)

Right. Right.

Alex Kocher (55:36.867)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (55:41.203)

Sure.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (55:56.074)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Alex Kocher (55:56.125)

No.

Brenda Payne (56:00.998)

And in fact, it's the mess ups a lot of times that, you know, give us the wisdom and the credibility and oftentimes It's like I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you what not to do And I think that's a very true a lot in parenting especially and I too my grandparent I have three grandchildren and so I I like to say that being a grandparent now I really think that God is more like a grandparent than he is a parent He's more like a grandfather than he is a father, right? You got to get be a grandparent to understand that

Alex Kocher (56:03.028)

Hehehehe

Alex Kocher (56:11.679)

Hahaha

Elyse Fitzpatrick (56:14.786)

Congratulations.

Alex Kocher (56:15.531)

Oof.

Brenda Payne (56:31.478)

What has changed or how has your perspective changed in the area of grace and parenting as a result of just your journey?

Elyse Fitzpatrick (56:38.718)

Yeah, after I wrote, given that I'm after I wrote because he loves me. My daughter and I, along with some of their friends, begin to ask the question, well, if the gospel is, if the gospel is supposed to affect, intersect with every area of my life, then how does that impact parenting? And honestly, we had no clue.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (57:07.614)

It wasn't until we read Luther's commentary on Galatians that really helped. I look back at, and then we wrote, Give Them Grace. I look back at my parenting and honestly, so much of it was driven. Of course, I loved my children, but so much of my parenting was driven by pride and fear.

Brenda Payne (57:38.560)

Hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (57:39.839)

I was not raised in a Christian home. I lived a really debauched life before I came to Christ. And I was determined that my children were not going to live that life.

Alex Kocher (57:41.223)

Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (57:55.666)

So I was afraid that they were not going to live the kind of life I wanted them to live. And it's not that we don't want our kids to serve Christ, of course we do, but I was so driven by fear that they would make the mistakes that I did. And that in part was also driven by pride.

I really wanted to be proud of my family. I wanted to prove that I wasn't my mother. I wanted to prove that I was better than. And so that eventuated in a very heavy-handed, legalistic way of my parenting my kids. Now fortunately for my children who all-

speak to me now, which is a miracle. But my husband, Phil, had been raised in a home like that. And so he was kind of a, hey, why don't you back off? Take a breath. Let's take the kids to the midnight showing of Star Wars, which we did. That was Phil.

Alex Kocher (59:13.175)

Mm-hmm. Hehehehe.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (59:20.258)

So Phil in his, because he was raised in the kind of home that I wanted to set up, he countered that to them, which I'm thankful for. So when I really began to understand the gospel and how I'm forgiven and counted obedient, then I could admit my pride.

Brenda Payne (59:40.062)

Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (59:49.942)

my fear, my demandingness. I could ask for forgiveness from my children. I could do this with the older ones because I realized that my reputation, my belovedness or my okayness was not contingent.

upon their doing the right thing. And the gospel did that. Now, what does that mean? Does that mean my kids are all wonderful and they're, my kids are sinners, they're broken. And their kids are sinners and they're broken. But I can say that, the gospel takes away the shame of motherhood.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:00:45.779)

The gospel does that.

Brenda Payne (01:00:46.088)

Hey, man.

Alex Kocher (01:00:47.843)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:00:48.990)

So, you know, just thinking about Mary, I mean, I can be a blessed woman who watches my son be executed.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:01:02.798)

See, that's what the gospel does.

Brenda Payne (01:01:10.300)

Yes, I wish I had gotten that much earlier in my parenting career, but thank God for grandchildren, right? Because we get to do it again and by God's grace with wisdom and experience, we get to do it better, do it different and they get to benefit. So that's great. Well, Alex, I think we're going to have to wrap up.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:01:11.232)

Yeah, me too.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:01:15.026)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Kocher (01:01:15.539)

Me too.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:01:26.048)

Okay?

Brenda Payne (01:01:29.016)

Is there anything else that you wanted to think we want to maybe ask about your podcast really quickly? We'd love to have a plug for your podcast and maybe any other resources you have, either currently or upcoming that you'd like for us to share with our heirs as well.

Alex Kocher (01:01:30.999)

Hmm.

Alex Kocher (01:01:37.079)

Your podcast. Mm-hmm.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:01:43.370)

Yeah, thanks. Thank you. Well, so I am on sort of a sabbatical from the Worthy podcast. We, Eric Schumacher and I did maybe 150 podcasts about the value of women. And we interviewed women and men about that. And so that is a podcast that if you go there and find it, it's

Presently reruns both he and I are trying to figure out our lives So we don't know what's going on and then our podcast front porch with the Fitz's That's a listen That's a listen with a warning It's very very Silly, it's the podcast about nothing But then we Yeah

Brenda Payne (01:02:31.166)

Hahaha

Brenda Payne (01:02:39.733)

Just raw and real.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:02:40.438)

But then, and that podcast is myself, my husband Phil, and Jessica and Joel, just talking about, it's kind of like a conversation on a front porch. So in a family, we talk over each other, we're really rude, we say things we shouldn't say. So that's that podcast. And yeah, I'm presently finishing up a project.

Alex Kocher (01:02:41.807)

Oh.

Brenda Payne (01:02:55.552)

Okay, that's the name.

Alex Kocher (01:02:58.207)

Uh huh.

Brenda Payne (01:03:00.820)

Hahaha

Alex Kocher (01:03:03.595)

Ha ha ha!

Brenda Payne (01:03:03.744)

I'm sorry.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:03:07.222)

that's currently entitled Unloved Be Loved, which is a look at how a lot of the lives of the people in the Bible really looked like they were unloved but they were actually beloved, and how our hope that we can make it in what I call the meritocracy.

which is kind of like, you know, do better in your life, look better, that, try to take their lives and say, okay, this is actually how God loves you, even in your mess. So that hopefully will be out, I wanna say maybe towards the end of the year.

Brenda Payne (01:03:57.024)

That's great. We will look forward to that for sure to add to our the list of all of the reading that we've done of yours. That's our Elise library. Exactly. Also, I know our our listeners can find you at Elise Fitzpatrick dot com. We'll put that in our show notes Elise. You've got books, you've got studies, you've got blogs, you've got podcasts. You are all over YouTube. If they just want to insert your name in their little YouTube app,

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:03:57.538)

Thank you all. Thanks. Yeah. That's the least library.

Alex Kocher (01:04:00.784)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Kocher (01:04:06.768)

our Elise library.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:04:19.519)

Mm.

Alex Kocher (01:04:24.109)

Hmm.

Brenda Payne (01:04:27.078)

I know again there's been a metamorphosis in your life and probably some of those date back to times where maybe there's been some different emphasis Maybe not anything totally new but a different emphasis along the way So Alex you want to say anything else you got any? pardon me

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:04:31.789)

Yes.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:04:36.142)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank you.

Alex Kocher (01:04:45.955)

Yeah, I think we just need to say thank you not just for coming on here today, but just for your whole

body of work and just for your life that's, you really have blazed a trail at least and it's made it easier for people like Brenda and me to come behind and not that that's even easy, but it has definitely made it easier to follow your example and to see the ways that you've been willing to admit. I mean, one of the things that Brenda and I really wrestled with in doing a podcast, every time we write anything or record anything,

Alex Kocher (01:05:22.385)

with this idea of, well, I'm a different person than I was 10 years ago. What if what I'm saying now, 10 years from now, I don't want to be saying? And you've done that with such grace. Like you, you really have shown us that, you know what, I don't want to be the same person 10 years from now, and it is good for me to grow and change in my ideas. And so we're just gonna have to be brave and say that we

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:05:23.072)

Yeah.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:05:45.965)

Yeah.

Alex Kocher (01:05:52.265)

us that and I love that you were able to just share with us that that comes from a deep grounding in the gospel so thank you.

Elyse Fitzpatrick (01:05:55.426)

Thank you, Alex. Thank you. Sure. Thank you. Thanks.

Brenda Payne (01:05:57.448)

Yeah, thank you so much Elise. We bless God for you.

Alex Kocher (01:06:04.235)

Mm-hmm.