Season 4 Episode 6: Depression

Brenda Payne (00:11.522)

Well, Alex, we're clipping along in season four, wisdom for life's common struggles. And today we're gonna talk about the topic of depression. And by now we all know that this podcast is my personal confessional community.


Alex Kocher (00:17.734)

Hmm.


Brenda Payne (00:29.570)

But I just have to say that I'm blessed to be somebody who has not struggled for long periods of time with depression. I will say that I've had some bouts with depression and those have been, I've had some dark times and certainly have struggled with discouragements along the way. But we both know people who have and are and for long periods of time struggle with this and it can just be so debilitating.


Alex Kocher (00:39.339)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (00:43.296)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.


Alex Kocher (00:58.310)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (00:58.704)

And I was thinking just about this visit, Paul and I went to Nashville to see the Van Gogh immersive experience. And of course, Van Gogh is one of the most famous and influential post-impressionist painters. And during the exhibits, it's kind of cool. You walk into this, it's almost like a warehouse where his works are projected on these floor to ceiling huge screens. It's put to music and it's kind of like animated.


Alex Kocher (01:06.423)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (01:22.780)

Mmm.


Alex Kocher (01:26.641)

Uh-huh.


Brenda Payne (01:27.246)

in a sequence and it's just there they're really showing like the brilliance of his paintings but also his madness. You might remember the the work The Starry Night that's one of the ones he's really known for and he painted that in a time of just real deep emotional affliction but he might be best remembered for a painting entitled Self-Portrait with a Bandaged Ear and that's yeah yes and that's the work he produced after


Alex Kocher (01:34.069)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (01:50.591)

Yes.


Brenda Payne (01:56.620)

to actually cut off his own ear. Excuse me, got a frog in my throat. But despite his incredible talent, Van Gogh's early life ended tragically because he shot himself at the age of 37. And he wrote to his brother before this happened, and this is what he said, he said, I feel a failure. I feel that that's the fate I'm accepting and which won't change anymore.


Alex Kocher (02:08.962)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (02:25.190)

And that absolute sense of hopelessness is at the heart of depression, right?


Alex Kocher (02:30.677)

Yeah, what caused his depression that led to the suicide?


Brenda Payne (02:33.998)

Thanks for watching!


Brenda Payne (02:35.894)

Yeah, interestingly, sometimes I go see these things and then I get really into wanting to know more. So I came and did a deep dive into his life. And there have been a lot of theories since his death, but some of the things people pointed to was like manic depression, bipolar disorder, a temporal lobe epilepsy, syphilis, even schizophrenia. Some say he was over-medicated. He was taking medications for his anxiety and depression. Others say that he was distraught because he was really dependent on his brother. He couldn't live an independent life.


Alex Kocher (02:40.610)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (02:45.952)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (02:53.238)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (02:59.661)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (03:05.868)

to be financially supported and his brother was also dying. I think his brother actually died six months after he killed himself. His letters and journals tell of his extreme loneliness. He just couldn't keep or make friendships. Interestingly though, I've looked up some about his spiritual orientation and background. His dad was a pastor and he was raised in the Dutch Reformed Church. And as a young man, he actually pursued theological training. And if he had continued that, we may not have had the painter that we know.


Alex Kocher (03:26.371)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (03:35.888)

But later in life, he described God as something up there.


Alex Kocher (03:40.440)

Mm.


Alex Kocher (03:42.759)

Yeah, I think Van Gogh's life is so interesting and I've watched some documentaries about it too. He's one of my daughter's favorite artists and so I think he is a great illustration of the fact that depression can be so multifaceted, it's so complex, it's hard to discern sometimes what's physical and what's spiritual and to tease that out. But we're confident that God can bring hope


Brenda Payne (04:08.782)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (04:12.773)

to even the most depressed person as he has to both of us in our dark times as you've said. So we want to try to give a definition of depression which is honestly pretty hard to do I think. We're going to define depression as a feeling or mood grounded in hopelessness, worthlessness, uselessness, marked by feelings, marked by feelings plus an action. So a lot of struggles are active.


they are marked by action but depression tends to be marked by inaction. When we're defining depression as the by the feelings we're not discounting the body part we're going to talk about the body part and we definitely recognize there are a lot of body issues and sometimes even causes for depression but some of the symptoms of depression are low energy levels, lack of motivation or


Alex Kocher (05:12.693)

trouble concentrating, difficulty sleeping, reduced or increased appetite, numbness, dread, monotony. So on the spectrum depression could be anything from feeling down or disappointed or dejected all the way to feeling despondent to a sense of despair. You know the kind of despair that would lead a person to want to end their own life.


Brenda Payne (05:39.052)

Yeah.


Well, I don't think it's any surprise to us that depression is described as an epidemic in America. I think we would say that anxiety is also along those lines and that's recognized as well in our society. So probably two of the most common issues that we deal with are people being anxious at some level or depressed at some level. And so mental health professionals say it's one of the most common mental disorders, but it's also the strongest risk factor


Alex Kocher (05:46.049)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (06:10.204)

behavior. And according to the CDC, one person commits suicide every 11 minutes. That was really astounding. Yeah, it was astounding to me too. And that number now, Alex, doesn't even include the number of people who are contemplating suicide or attempting, have attempted suicide, but just those who have actually committed suicide. Teens and young adults are disproportionately at risk for suicide and self-harming behaviors and studies indicate that women


Alex Kocher (06:16.939)

That's astounding. Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (06:25.780)

Right.


Brenda Payne (06:40.164)

This might tell us that young people and women might be more prone to depression. And while all of these statistics are incredibly sad, they also represent an incredible opportunity for the gospel of hope.


Alex Kocher (06:54.452)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (06:56.427)

Yeah, so what we wanna do as we talk about depression today is we do want to center on hope. But before we get into the hope side or the antidote for depression being hope, we wanna talk about, we wanna move into the complexity a little bit. I don't, for a moment, think we're gonna be able to cover or nuance depression completely, but we do wanna attempt to bring some clarity


we see that people fall into two different ditches with depression and I think Christians in particular struggle because there's such a stigma in the Christian community about depression. I think there's a lot of shame that's added to people who suffer with depression and confusion that's added because we're told things like our depression is due to a lack of faith, it's due to sin in our lives,


Alex Kocher (07:53.035)

we're told by mental health professionals that it may be just a body issue, that it just needs to be treated with medication. So we wanna avoid falling into those either or ditches where it's either all physical or all emotional. So in one ditch, we have the view that depression is rooted in biological causes, and medicine is the cure, and counseling or working on our inner man is not needed.


Alex Kocher (08:23.389)

If we make depression only about physical issues, we make it a value-free diagnosis. There's no moral responsibility. There's no need to look inside and we forget that we are both body and soul and that as spiritual beings we have to consider how our inner man is impacted and how we will interact with God in the midst of depression. So we're trying to bring those two together and recognize that we have to look at both.


Brenda Payne (08:48.694)

Yeah, I was talking to a friend of mine recently who was telling me about a relative of hers that had the kind of depression that she described as it could not be helped by medicine. And I found that statement really curious, Alex. So I began probing and asking a few questions and she went on to explain that, you know, her cousin was in great turmoil and actually had just given up on life.


Alex Kocher (09:04.594)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (09:12.658)

And I asked her, you know, were there circumstances contributing to her feelings of hopelessness? And I learned that her son had overdosed three years prior, she was battling a chronic health issue, and her husband was now divorcing her. And as a result of all that, this dear woman was at a point where she was mad at God and she was turning away from him. And all I could think of was, dear goodness, she needs more than a pill to feel better.


Alex Kocher (09:17.665)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (09:37.906)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (09:38.302)

And in fact, she needs to be able to feel at some level to deal with her sadness. And so, you know, I think what we just want to be careful of in that ditch is that we're not saying that a pill is going to fix the situation. Um, you know, and we're going to speak more to that, but in the other ditch, we can also fall on the other side, right? This other dish that says depression is only spiritual.


Alex Kocher (09:52.521)

Right.


Alex Kocher (10:00.266)

Right?


Alex Kocher (10:03.650)

Right?


Brenda Payne (10:04.226)

So the cure is only counseling, and then we just reject anything that the medical community might have to offer. And we're asking and maybe even proposing today that there could be a better way, a third way, what we would call a gospel path that takes a both and approach. We talked about wisdom often being not so much an either and, but more nuanced, or either or, but more nuanced as a both and approach.


Alex Kocher (10:12.517)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (10:31.250)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (10:33.860)

Yes, there is a better way. There is a both and approach, and we need to address both the physical and spiritual. And I think what this does is this tempers our desire for a quick and easy remedy, but it also allows for a measure of relief when someone is experiencing the debilitating impact of depression.


Alex Kocher (10:44.777)

Yes.


Alex Kocher (10:51.923)

Yeah, I think anyone who suffer with depression is there very rarely a quick and easy remedy. And so I'm hoping that that we are providing hope even in just being able to say it's okay if it's not something that you can snap your fingers and get over quickly. It's okay if it feels complex because it is complex and and that there are of course many different causes for depression.


Brenda Payne (10:57.794)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (11:09.102)

that's right.


Alex Kocher (11:21.857)

doctor named Dr. Bob Smith who's been in the biblical counseling movement since its beginning and he says there are basically four major causes for depression. The physical me, the spiritual me, other people, and Satan and then of course we would say that God is sovereign over all those things. He works in and through those different causes of depression but to to really


Alex Kocher (11:51.717)

depression is to have to at some point address each one of these areas I think.


Brenda Payne (11:58.178)

I agree. Well, let's do that, Alex. Let's go through and address each one of these and maybe bring some clarity or stir up more questions. Might be mostly what we do here. The physical me, you know, there are some things in our body that can either cause or heighten or exacerbate depression. We have side effects from certain drugs. These could be legal prescriptions or illegal drugs.


Alex Kocher (12:08.151)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (12:28.232)

I know that one's been a big one for me. I am very, very, very sensitive to sleep deprivation. Hormonal changes, women, premenstrual syndrome, postpartum menopause, men, you know when this happens to your women. I know for me, I guess I'm postmenopausal, maybe that's too much information for this podcast, I don't know, but now I've gone to talk about my personal health issues, but I know for me, Alex,


Alex Kocher (12:30.721)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (12:36.608)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (12:53.769)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (12:58.232)

one of the times that I can, I just remember historically feeling maybe a lot of depression and even now where I can feel it is when my hormones are out of whack and I'll go into kind of a brain fog, I'll have this heaviness, I can't explain it, I'll have a lack of interest, I'll begin to say I need to quit everything, I need to quit my job, I need to quit the podcast, I need to quit everything, I'm just going to isolate and oh man, it can just be, it can be just so hard and it feels so real like it's never going to go away. Seasonal blues, yeah go ahead.


Alex Kocher (13:05.900)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (13:15.637)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (13:25.235)

And you know, Brenda, you know that there's actually some new fields of research that maybe it's not just us women who cycle hormonally, but that men also have hormonal cycles. So we don't want to act like we have the corner on the market. When hormone changes. Yeah. Yeah.


Brenda Payne (13:44.262)

like that. Maybe we need to post some of those for our lady listeners so they can pull them out with their significant other. Well seasonal blues is another you know way our body can be affected and I don't know about you but I feel it. Sunny days just make me happier and when it rains too much I'm just like I don't know why I feel so down. Nutritional deficiencies we're finding things like vitamin B and D make a difference. Infections such as AIDS, mono, viral hepatitis and just other


Alex Kocher (13:51.019)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (13:54.952)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (13:58.970)

Mm-hmm. Yes.


Brenda Payne (14:14.196)

arthritis or certain types of cancer, neurological disorders, all of these kind of things have been linked to depression as well.


Alex Kocher (14:22.843)

Yeah, and so I think when we think about the physical issues, the first question that we anticipate is, well then what do we think about antidepressants? It's the first question a lot of people's minds. People ask the question, should we as believers use antidepressants? And I think you and I both agree that this is an area that needs to be really nuanced. There needs to be a great deal of wisdom brought to bear. For some Christians, it's going to be okay. They by faith


Alex Kocher (14:53.177)

take antidepressants and others are not going to feel like they can do it in faith. I think you and I would both say that we've seen antidepressants used in a way that they are a helpful tool, especially when someone is pursuing counseling and wanting to see transformation in their lives that antidepressants can become a support for their body to have clarity, to have greater motivation, to be able to dig in to the work that counseling is.


Alex Kocher (15:22.597)

And then for a person who's been diagnosed with clinical depression and is not functioning, sometimes they need medication to just jump start and to get going, to give a spark, to give a leveling out. So I would say neither one of us think that there's an easy answer with antidepressants. There are a lot of factors to consider and that people need to seek medical help for that, that they need to see a medical doctor and have those discussions with the doctor that they trust.


Brenda Payne (15:46.898)

Yep. Yep.


Alex Kocher (15:52.977)

and to make careful and intentional decisions about that. But we certainly want to remove the stigma that has surrounded antidepressants as something that are necessarily evil or bad.


Brenda Payne (16:06.302)

Yeah, and Alex, let me just add to that. I think in the realm of conversational counseling, we're not doctors. And so if your friend is debating that, I think it's just really important, maybe share this particular view of nuancing and encourage them to go see a doctor, to get all the information and educated, to talk to somebody that's close to them that knows their particular situation, and then just to, you know, prayerfully with the leading of the Holy Spirit


Alex Kocher (16:12.944)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (16:36.296)

of good counsel move forward on that. So we just don't want to be giving people that kind of counsel, if you will.


Alex Kocher (16:39.337)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (16:43.431)

Right, and I think the big thing is I don't want people to be afraid of their physical body or of medication. Like, we don't want to make decisions out of fear either way. Like, I'm fearful so I have to take it or I'm fearful so I can't take it. That we want to be able to make decisions moving forward in faith. And I think there is some fear surrounding addressing our physical body. But I think it's good for us to remember that we have to recognize there are physical aspects,


Brenda Payne (16:58.198)

That's right.


Alex Kocher (17:13.965)

that come to bear when we talk about depression. But there's also a lot of spiritual aspects going on. These are our soul issues. So there are things like guilt. We think about David and the scriptures when he says his heart was wasting away. That when he recognized his guilt and his sin that he isolated himself and it caused a lot of soul turmoil. We think of envy that sometimes


self-pity like in Psalm 73 we think envy that leads to lack of gratitude often social media in this day and age can drive envy and a feeling like my life is not as important or good or fun as other people's fear can be paralyzing and overwhelming


Alex Kocher (18:07.019)

loss, any kind of loss, loss of a job, a sad event, the loss of a person who we love, social isolation that we all experience during the pandemic and maybe even continue to, to someplace. So there are a lot of factors that are rooted in our souls that are spiritual issues that can come to play in depression.


Brenda Payne (18:31.938)

One that I think sometimes we don't think about is just this idea of misplaced hope.


The scripture says that hope deferred makes the heart sick. And I think one of the questions we have to ask is have I put my hope in something or someone else? In other words, the creation instead of God the creator. Paul and I were watching the Taylor Swift Netflix documentary, Miss Americana. And I was, I know, it was so good. And you know, here she's got bazillion followers around the world, but just talk so much about how lonely she is. And throughout the show she was so honest


Alex Kocher (18:45.731)

Mm.


Alex Kocher (18:52.300)

Mm-hmm. I loved it. Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (18:58.266)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (19:02.449)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (19:07.496)

desire that she has that she lives for the approval of other people. And Paul and I were just saying how desperation for approval makes you desperate, right? And so you can just see that throughout her career, you know, there was humiliation. I think about the Kanye West situation that left her so humiliated. There was an award, a Grammy or something she didn't win where her


Alex Kocher (19:12.000)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (19:18.529)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (19:36.316)

of this rejection, she has talked about how it left her so devastated. You can hear this in her music, but I just think we need to remember that when we are looking for things outside, we're looking for things that God has already given us outside of him, that can often lead us depressed. And then loneliness, of course, loneliness is a huge one. I always think about how nothing living can thrive or survive in isolation.


Alex Kocher (19:40.884)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (19:52.885)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (20:03.488)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (20:06.376)

is it it really moves us toward isolation because yeah we we kind of remove ourselves we don't have the energy for relationships and the very thing we need is to be in community but it's just too hard to go to my small group it's too hard to you know doesn't feel like I want to get up and go to work where there are other people I'll just stay home and work remote again today so we can really get sucked into that and then I just think about temperament Alex and you know oftentimes people who are highly emotive or


Alex Kocher (20:08.407)

Hmm, it does.


Brenda Payne (20:36.136)

can be more susceptible. Paul has this really good friend of his who is what we might call an Eeyore. He even has one of his golf club head covers as the character Eeyore. You remember the donkey from Winnie the Pooh who was always so gloomy and he would sadly say, nobody loves me. Well some people are naturally like that. They're more melancholy and prone to pessimism. I for one again, I think that you know my I would definitely be Tigger and Winnie the Pooh.


Alex Kocher (20:43.799)

Hmm.


Alex Kocher (20:48.999)

Yeah, yeah.


Alex Kocher (20:53.992)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (21:06.069)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (21:06.156)

So I'm going to err more on that side, but I think we do just have to recognize that there are some people who lean more toward that and yeah, and that would just be one of the ways they're impacted.


Alex Kocher (21:17.067)

Yeah, yeah.


So going back to Bob Smith's factors, we say the physical self, the spiritual self, and then sometimes other people play into our depression. We think about unresolved conflict and the tension on all the feelings that come up from an unresolved conflict. And then sometimes as an outworking of that or even separate from that unforgiveness that comes when we have unresolved bitterness, anger, resentment, that it takes a lot of energy.


Alex Kocher (21:48.929)

And then we also recognize that there is harm being done by other people, so sometimes past or present abuse or emotionally destructive relationships put us in a position where we begin to feel depressed.


Brenda Payne (22:03.022)

Then I think the final element we need to look at is just the role of Satan, who's the ruler of this world. We don't sometimes recognize how much depression can be a part of oppression. That we live in a world that is very, we're very oppressed. There's a lot of evil around us. We watch the news, not just in our own local communities, but in the United States, and not just in the United States, but in the world, and we just take on a lot of seeing just so much of the bad that's happening.


Brenda Payne (22:33.716)

You know, that just can really leave us feeling discouraged and hopeless, like nothing's going to change and everything's going to, you know, hell in a hand basket. And yeah, and I think the other thing we don't need to...


underestimate is just how the enemy can use people, events in our lives, lies to accuse us and condemn us. And we've spoken about guilt in one of our other episodes in this series. And you know, that's why guilt oftentimes leads to depression. Satan cannot rob us of our salvation, but he will do whatever he can to undermine our spiritual walk and to keep us unproductive as


Alex Kocher (23:05.121)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (23:16.205)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (23:16.718)

That's where he wants us. And yeah.


Alex Kocher (23:19.403)

It reminds me, Brenda, that if I...


Alex Kocher (23:22.927)

If I sit with someone who's older than 50, I tend to, and who's struggling with depression or anxiety, I tend to nudge them gently towards turning off 24-7 news. If I sit with someone under 50, I tend to nudge them gently towards turning off or limiting social media because it seems like those things are feeding a lot of, a lot of...


Brenda Payne (23:36.514)

Right? Poof!


Brenda Payne (23:46.100)

Yes.


Alex Kocher (23:52.339)

and a lot of depression not always very popular when I do that but I do think that that yeah there is something even almost generational about some of the things that lead to our depression that I've seen just anecdotally but we want to talk about the antidote for our depression I think that the antidote is hope biblical hope I know that we tend to go straight to Romans 8 28 and 29


Brenda Payne (23:53.899)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (23:57.019)

That's a good word. Word!


Brenda Payne (24:05.167)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's good.


Alex Kocher (24:22.073)

that all things are working together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose and that is slapped on people like a spiritual band-aid and often it leaves people feeling much more hurt and isolated than helped. And so one of the things that we want to remind people is that Romans 8, 28, 29 are set in a context, in a larger context of Romans 8, which


is what John Paper calls the great eight. It's a beautiful passage, but one of the things that is so beautiful about the passage is it doesn't take us away from the hardship in this world that Paul actually reminds us that we should expect and anticipate the groaning of living in this earth. And there's something about depression


Alex Kocher (25:21.793)

with that groaning and to recognize that life is hard and there is hardship. We're going to face hardship but that good is coming. So where depression may tempt us to see things in really black and white categories, it's good or bad, it's hard or easy, it's welcome or unwelcome. Hope is something that's going to cause us to acknowledge that there are other colors in the midst. There are dark colors in the midst of bright and beautiful colors.


Brenda Payne (25:51.846)

And I think one of the things we have to identify is really what is hope and versus maybe biblical hope because I think we often have this sort of hope so kind of hope. We want something but we're not really sure if it's going to happen. That's not biblical hope. Biblical hope is certainty. Hebrews 11 one says, now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.


Alex Kocher (26:03.768)

Mm.


Alex Kocher (26:09.365)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (26:18.342)

The one thing this is not though is a wealth health prosperity kind of hope So we're gonna tease this out a little bit First of all, we need to recognize the reason why Hebrews 11 one is true The reason we can have this confidence is because the source of all biblical hope is God himself


Alex Kocher (26:23.251)

Right?


Brenda Payne (26:34.526)

And biblical hope is always rooted in the character, the presence and the promises of God and our union with him through the saving work of Jesus. Again, the Hebrew writer writes, we have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain. And so I was just thinking like, what is this? We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul. This is the absolute assurance that God is present and he is going to be true, Alex.


Brenda Payne (27:03.162)

So, you know, I think we have to distinguish between what I like to call the big H hopes.


what the Bible says is certain and our little age hopes, those things that we desire. Because God is not some cosmic Santa Claus, you know, filling my wish list. And I think motherhood is a great example of this because there are a lot of hopes and dreams we have for our children and outcomes we desire for our parenting. And, you know, all of them are really good, but they're not necessarily things that God has guaranteed, right? That my child's going to grow up and be


Brenda Payne (27:40.156)

might be a great desire, might hope that'll happen, but the Bible doesn't say that's going to happen. You know, I hope that my child never gets it, you know, involved in anything bad. Well, you know, that might happen and that's a great thing to pray and desire, but it doesn't mean that that's guaranteed that nothing bad is ever going to happen to your child. Dr. Robert Jones, who was one of my seminary professors, said this, never put your ultimate hope in something God does not explicitly promise in the scriptures.


Brenda Payne (28:09.362)

Because Alex, when we do that, we become really, really depressed. Not only when we think people have let us down, but when we think God has let us down. Right? That's a whole different level. When we're thinking, like, well, wait, I asked for something, I prayed for something, I hoped for something, God didn't answer. And so our desires and wishful thinking should not become demands on God. We need to be sure our hope is what God says in His Word.


Alex Kocher (28:20.151)

Right.


Alex Kocher (28:37.290)

Yeah.


So when we talk about Biblical hope, one of the things I'm reminded of is Paul Miller's J-Curve. I don't know if we've talked about that on other podcasts or not, but I think it bears repeating here. The J-Curve, Paul Miller says that the Christian life is really marked by life and down into death and then up into new life. And we see that because we see Jesus going from life into


Alex Kocher (29:08.429)

because he was resurrected by the power of the Holy Spirit, he was given new life and the believers we can begin to expect that in the places where we're experiencing death, grief, sorrow, even anger, like when we move down into those places we can expect the Spirit to come with power and bring new life. Now it's hard because we don't always know how that new life is going to happen, what


Brenda Payne (29:33.325)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (29:38.449)

is the trajectory of the Christian life and sometimes we have to remember that that new life is not completely experienced here on this earth right we might taste it but we are always promised a final and future restoration because of Christ's work on the cross and in the resurrection so I love the joker


Brenda Payne (30:01.866)

And I think for somebody, yeah, and I was just gonna say, I just think, especially for somebody who is dealing with chronic depression, the kind of depression that just won't go away, and I'm thinking about a friend of mine right now for the last two years, she really surrendered her life to Christ two years ago, and at the same time, she has been dealing with daily depression.


Brenda Payne (30:25.654)

And she's, it's been very, very hard. And we've, you know, looked at all the things that we've talked about. We've gone back to the physical, we've gone back to the spiritual, we've gone back to other relationships, we've gone back to talking about the enemy. And for whatever reason, she's quote unquote, doing all the right things, if you will, but the depression isn't leaving. And so rather than trying to always get out from under the depression, she's having to really reframe this to realize like there are little, there's little life coming out of this death.


Alex Kocher (30:30.252)

Right.


Brenda Payne (30:55.408)

into a deeper relationship with him, more conformity to Christ in ways that clearly he wants to transform her, but also keeping her focus on, even though this life seems like a long time, like there is a time coming where she will have ultimate hope realized. Her hope will be ultimately realized, yeah.


Alex Kocher (31:15.923)

Right.


Alex Kocher (31:18.803)

Yeah, and I think one of the the tool we're going to give today, I think kind of speaks to what you're saying Brenda, and that is that we're not always trying to just work ourselves into this positive thinking or work ourselves out of depression. Of course, that's what we would want for ourselves or for anybody, but that sometimes what we need to do is sink down into the grief, into the sorrow and the anger that we feel. And so the tool that we want to bring today for our souls is


Alex Kocher (31:48.837)

lament. And I love this tool. I probably, this is probably the tool that I give more people than any other other tool. And one, I think because we have moved away from the idea of lament in our Christian circles and almost made it sinful to lament when what we actually see in Scripture is that lament is everywhere and particularly in the Psalms we see that more Psalms are Psalms


Brenda Payne (31:56.450)

Yeah, me too. Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (32:19.097)

songs of praise and thanksgiving and all the happy feelings. So what's Lament? We think that Lament is a passionate plea for help from a compassionate God. It is expressing our deep messy emotions but it's doing that while we engage our faith. And so it's doing that so to speak in the bottom of the J-curve where we're experiencing the feelings of death but we're positioned in our


towards God.


Alex Kocher (32:50.859)

and not away from him. It is a... our laments, we may lament our sin or our suffering or both. And lament is not just saying God loves me even when I am messy. It's actually experiencing God loves me even when I am messy. And what I mean by that is I think we have a intellectual ascent to oh yes, God loves me and sees me in my brokenness. But I think when we practice lament, we position ourselves


Alex Kocher (33:21.073)

like I get to be messy not only like God can see it but like I bring it to him and I experience his love even in that place. So here's some examples from the Psalms and these come from the message and I like to give these because I think people need permission to know like how far can I really go and with this lament thing. So I love these this is from the message, please God no more yelling, no


Brenda Payne (33:42.350)

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe


Alex Kocher (33:50.533)

shed. Treat me nice for a change. I am starved for affection." Here's another one. Can't you see I'm black and blue, beat up badly in bones and soul? God, how long will it take for you to let up? And I mean we felt that way.


Brenda Payne (34:08.974)

Hmm, those feel bad. I don't know, Alex, that almost seems irreverent. Ha ha ha ha ha.


Alex Kocher (34:13.979)

It does, it does. And you know, I think if we are really honest and we really read the Psalms, just read them, just plain reading, we're going to feel a little bit like, are you allowed to say that? You know, we're going to feel a little bit like, hmm, I don't know. Paul Miller says that lament is a raw, pure form of faith that simply takes God at his word. And it's raw and pure


Brenda Payne (34:25.774)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (34:43.973)

messy. So a woman who I was counseling had suffered a lot of loss but she hadn't really ever expressed her hurt to God. She thought it was like it showed a lack of faith, it was disrespectful, she tried to hide her feelings from God but what happens there is and we lose any sense of intimacy with God and we we actually treat him as if he's not safe you know for us to process through these unwelcome things. So I think what we end up doing is we divorce ourselves from


Alex Kocher (35:14.175)

emotions and then we divorce ourselves from the experience of God's presence in the midst of that and for me


Alex Kocher (35:24.415)

Even in some of the darkest places, what has given me hope is that it's choosing to believe that even when I don't feel like God is there, He is there. And so lament becomes another way that I move forward in faith of saying, I believe you're there. And I believe that you allow me to just tell you what's real, what's honest, what's raw, and that you accept me right in that place.


Brenda Payne (35:54.682)

So good. Well, I know that one of the assignments that we give to people and an assignment that we've given to ourselves as well is to write our own Psalm. A Psalm is a sacred song or poem used in worship, but they really give vocabulary a lot of times for our pain. And depression needs expression.


Alex Kocher (36:07.008)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (36:19.870)

And that's the very thing we often think will make things worse, right? Like if I speak this, it will be worse. And so we don't want to speak it. But the reality is, is we need to speak it. And I was just I was just counseling with a young lady who her family background, there had been a lot of pain. And this was exactly what she said. She said, I've been stuffing these emotions so long because I'm afraid if I speak them like something bad will happen, like it will it will make the situation worse. I will be undone.


Alex Kocher (36:23.403)

Gas. Gas.


Brenda Payne (36:50.664)

handle the emotions I've been holding for so long. That's really the lie the enemy wants us to believe. So what lament does is it gives us permission and a pattern of how we're going to cry out to the Lord. And we're going to post... Yeah, yeah.


Alex Kocher (36:51.017)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (37:04.375)

Brenda, can I say something there before you go on? I've probably gave this example, I don't know if I'm exaggerating when I say in every counseling session I had last week that what we're doing when we believe that is like we're taking that beach ball like when you were a kid, you have this beach ball and you're trying to push it under the water. I'm not sure if I'm exaggerating.


Alex Kocher (37:25.879)

trying to push all those emotions down and pretend like they're not there or not acknowledge them because we think it'll make it worse and anyone who's tried to do that always say okay what happens when you the harder you try to push that beach ball down eventually what's going to happen is it's going to shoot out in some direction you're not going to be able to control where it goes and it's probably going to do some destruction on its way and so I think it's just a great visual


Alex Kocher (37:55.773)

of like stop spending so much energy pushing the beach ball down and let it come up because it's going to be far less destructive it's going to cause far less pain to just bring it up and hold it there and look at it and process through it then it is to keep trying to push it down.


Brenda Payne (37:56.087)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (37:59.175)

Yes.


Brenda Payne (38:13.866)

That's a great, I'm going to steal that. I'm going to use that this week. Okay. Anybody out there just use that in your conversational counseling. It's a great illustration. Typically when that happens to me, it just comes up and just hits me, whaps me in the head, right? And so it's terrible, but it's equally terrible if it whaps somebody else or goes off and you know, not break something as it flies across the pool. But any rate, going back to just this pattern of lament, there's kind of three things we look at as the pattern.


Alex Kocher (38:17.264)

Mmm, mmm, mmm. There you go.


Alex Kocher (38:28.272)

Exactly.


Brenda Payne (38:43.620)

we look at most all of the laments, there's a few that don't follow this pattern in the Psalms, but there's a crying out, there's a asking for help, and there's a remembering God. So we want to encourage this pattern as well. When you go to write your feelings out to the Lord, when you go to express yourself, the first thing is we want you to cry out to God in candor. That means honestly, you know, tell him about your pain, pour your heart out to him. He cares, he wants to


Brenda Payne (39:13.660)

hear. And then secondly, you know, state the problem and ask for help. Tell him what's wrong. And I know for me a lot of times I have to ask him for help not only for the problem, but also for my unbelief.


Right? Because a lot of times I'm just struggling to hold on to the understanding, particularly in depression, that he's present, that his promises are real and for me. Right? Well, this is for everybody else. Everybody else is doing great, but this doesn't really apply to me. And then we need to remember who he is and what he's done. We can respond then in trust and praise. When we remember him, we can think about the character qualities that comfort us, his promises to us, we can recount, you know, all of his blessings.


Alex Kocher (39:26.384)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (39:34.878)

Right.


Alex Kocher (39:41.290)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (39:56.312)

he's helped us, how he's kept us steadfast, how he continues to show unfailing love.


And so we would just really encourage folks who struggle with depression to choose a psalm and use it as a pattern to rewrite it in your own words. And we don't really, it's a little bit difficult for us to explain that on a podcast. And so the best thing that we thought we would do was post the instructions, some samples and a worksheet on how to write your own lament in the


Alex Kocher (40:14.638)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (40:20.716)

Hmm.


Brenda Payne (40:31.668)

in our online class training have even more information because the online class is a little bit like drinking water from a fire hydrant, we've been told. And so it also includes access to a lament I wrote. But this whole idea of


Brenda Payne (40:50.546)

meeting with God, inviting him into our depression. And I think that's so hard because I think so often, I mean, that is the struggle of the depressed person is again, we want to back up and isolate. There's just not the energy. There's that hopelessness. If I come again, why does it matter? I've been here a million times. Nothing has changed. I don't feel any better.


Alex Kocher (40:59.513)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (41:07.849)

Right.


Brenda Payne (41:09.142)

But I think just continuing on and with it and to recognize that J-curve, like life is, if we're Christians, resurrection is going to come out of death. There is hope in the midst of hopelessness.


Alex Kocher (41:19.296)

Mm-hmm. Mm.


Brenda Payne (41:22.042)

and we may not see it all now, but along the way, if you talk with most people and they are, you know, they've struggled with depression, but they've trusted in God and they've leaned into the Lord, they have seen some glimmers of hope along the way. And we need hope for endurance. I mean, that's one of the things the scripture says, if we're gonna keep on persevering, if we're gonna keep on keeping on, hope is what we need to be able to do that.


Alex Kocher (41:45.195)

Yeah, that's good.


Alex Kocher (41:47.867)

So Lament is our sole tool, but we've also wanted to continue to give a body tool for each one of these, but particularly for depression. We wanna make sure that we're addressing the body factors that go into depression. And as we said earlier, I think it's always wise when you're struggling with depression to seek medical help, to have a good physical, to be in conversation with a medical doctor that you trust about what's going on in your body.


Alex Kocher (42:17.781)

things we realize with depression is what we said at the very beginning, there's often a lot of inaction with depression. It makes us feel tired, it makes us feel sluggish, lack of motivation, and sometimes that very in action compounds itself where we we begin to feel guilty about the inaction and we feel a lot of guilt and shame over that which drives us further into depression. So I think one of the most helpful body tools that I've


and I've watched other people work through is to create rhythms in their day, in their week, in their seasons even, that help them feel anchored and give structure. I just really believe that we see from the opening pages of Scripture that we are people who are made for rhythm. We see the evening morning rhythm. We see the order of creation. We see the seasons. We see all these things that


Alex Kocher (43:17.601)

lot of rhythms and that rhythms and structures help ground us and help our bodies and our nervous system know what to anticipate. So I'm talking about very simple things like setting up sleep rhythms, going to bed at the same time, waking at the same time, rhythms to our activities, also you know trying to begin small into what those rhythms look like. If we're gonna tackle a project around


Alex Kocher (43:47.681)

remodeling project when we're depressed, we're going to maybe just clean out a closet, a closet, right? We're going to tackle small tasks that feel really doable and that feel, feel, give us a sense of accomplishment. And then within those rhythms of rest, we also want to address with rhythms like exercise. And you know, I think exercise is probably one of the things we read a lot about


Alex Kocher (44:18.361)

immediate symptomatic depression treatment there's probably no better activity than exercise so there are a lot of studies that show us that a daily workout improves our emotional health even just things like 30 minutes of activity taking a walk you know if you can get outside even better


Alex Kocher (44:38.235)

But 30 minutes of activity for at least five days a week helps to release helpful brain chemicals. And so getting in these rhythms and structures of sleep and accomplishing small tasks and exercising, I think they help ground us and give us a feeling of accomplishment, give us a feeling of, of our bodies knowing what to anticipate in a season where things can feel pretty chaotic.


Brenda Payne (45:05.422)

Yeah. Well, I'm reminded in First Kings of just the prophet Elijah, Alex, and just how he got so discouraged and depressed.


Alex Kocher (45:10.871)

Mm.


Brenda Payne (45:15.946)

And I love this. God answers, this journey is too much for you. And then he says, you need to eat some food and go to bed. You need to eat some food and go to bed. So there is something, like you said, just about that acknowledgement of the body. We have to take care of our bodies. And then I just think the other thing is this idea of engaging beauty. We had Kirk Thompson on and he's really big on that. People like Diane Lang.


Alex Kocher (45:21.704)

Mmm. Yes!


Alex Kocher (45:38.583)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (45:42.486)

who we love are really big on this idea of engaging beauty because when we have to see so much ugly in the world.


Alex Kocher (45:42.647)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (45:50.363)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (45:50.746)

and just even ugly in our lives, just the things that are pressing in on us. It's, I mean, it's kind of a normal response, Alex. It's like a normal human experience when there's so much ugly around you to recognize it, because we actually have spiritual eyes to see things differently as well. Like we really know like this is not good. Even the things the world is calling good, we're saying, no, this is not good. But I think when we can engage with beauty,


Alex Kocher (45:58.087)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (46:09.050)

Mm. Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (46:15.624)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (46:20.960)

with the Lord in a way that is so sweet and it reminds us like beauty reminds us that God has not given up on the world he's not given up on us he's not given up on people beauty reminds us that there is an end that God has promised to bring incredible beauty he's gonna make all wrongs right one day there will be nothing to depress us nothing all the tears all the sadness everything wiped away and and and our ultimate hope has to be in that day


Alex Kocher (46:27.939)

Hmm.


Alex Kocher (46:31.148)

Mm-hmm.


Alex Kocher (46:35.935)

Right?


Alex Kocher (46:41.399)

Hmm.


Alex Kocher (46:45.835)

Hmm.


Alex Kocher (46:50.154)

Mm-hmm.


Brenda Payne (46:50.706)

So, well, this has been a great discussion on depression. And I really hope that some of our listeners will benefit Alex for themselves. And I think we wanna eventually do some more podcasting on suffering so we may come back to this idea of lament and even unpack it more. And I think that for any of these issues really, in life struggles, understanding more about suffering and God's design for suffering


Alex Kocher (46:55.213)

Hmm.


Alex Kocher (47:08.619)

Yeah.


Brenda Payne (47:20.572)

how we can help one another for suffering is just going to be so key because the scripture says that as surely as sparks fly upward man was made for trouble right and so um suffering is just a real part of our life i was thinking about i'm still working on my memory verse and acts where uh paul says he's going to go to jerusalem and he's been warned not to go and he says all i know is that the holy spirit just keeps telling me that there's going to be hardship in prison wherever i go


Alex Kocher (47:29.167)

Mmm...


Alex Kocher (47:48.580)

Hahaha


Brenda Payne (47:52.385)

But then he goes on his response to that as he's learned to consider his life as nothing and his number one goal is to testify to the grace of God. And so I think you know even in depression what a challenge, what an opportunity. He didn't do that apart from tears, he didn't do that apart from saying it was a struggle. You know he wasn't like some sort of you know Houdini Christian who just you know got it all. Like he struggled with it but we can but we want to struggle well.


Alex Kocher (47:56.664)

Yeah.


Alex Kocher (48:07.135)

Right? Yeah.


Brenda Payne (48:20.464)

I think that's the point and we want to grow in this struggle. So we hope this podcast has helped our listeners and will help each of us as we walk with other people who are wrestling with a very common but a really hard part of life struggles.