Season 4 Episode 3: Anxiety Pt 2
alex_kocher (00:06.436)
Well, Brenda, we're back talking about wisdom for life's common struggles, and we're in part two of our talk on anxiety. We certainly felt like anxiety's a big enough topic that we could probably do many, many podcasts about it, but we're gonna try to, in these two podcasts, talk a little bit about anxiety and then give tools that help give us some specific just exercises to walk through to help with our anxiety.
anxiety is being the uneasy and sometimes even it's a debilitating feeling that takes over our thoughts, it takes over our feelings, it takes over our body and usually it's surrounding uncertainty, it's in areas where we fear for our safety or the safety of those we love and so anxiety is really probably permeates most of our days and so today we are going to give another tool
This may be a long process as we work through this tool, this anxiety journal, but we recognize that when we're working on issues, particularly that touch on our sin and our suffering, there needs to be a lot of intentionality around how we address that. And so we've created a handout with this Philippians 4 journal, and it may be helpful to have the handout in front of you as we work through it. You've been gracious to allow us to work through something specific to what you've
you took yourself through this anxiety journal.
brenda_payne (01:39.15)
Yeah, my anxiety that I'm going to use is actually a long standing anxiety with me. And so we'll get to that in just a minute. I, this is probably one of the tools that I give out a lot when I meet with people who are dealing with anxiety. I learned it from my first biblical counseling mentor, Lou Priolo. And I'll never forget it was the first time that Lou had come into my church and he preached a sermon on this and he walked through this anxiety tool. And after he was done, I was like, Oh my goodness. I want.
alex_kocher (02:04.308)
Hmm.
brenda_payne (02:09.49)
to be like that. I want to be able to use my Bible in that practical of a way. I think I was a mom with little children and I was facing a lot of anxieties so obviously it really touched me where where I needed you know help at the moment. So it is from Philippians 4-4 through 9. These are some passages that probably a lot of our listeners are familiar with but I think before we look at the those particular verses Alex would be helpful to talk a little bit about
alex_kocher (02:13.63)
Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (02:17.237)
Hmm.
alex_kocher (02:21.918)
Yes.
alex_kocher (02:28.103)
Mm-hmm.
brenda_payne (02:39.05)
context.
alex_kocher (02:42.416)
Yeah, before we talk about context, I wanna say one thing. So we actually say that we do not wanna be guilty of concordance counseling, right? Like anger flipped to the back of your Bible, find the verses on anger and throw it to add someone. And I hope that we prove by the end of this podcast that we're not concordance counseling here, but that Philippians 4 has some really practical things to help us address our anxiety
brenda_payne (03:02.05)
Hehehe
alex_kocher (03:12.456)
suggesting we throw these verses at someone to shame them in their anxiety, but to actually help them to work through their thought processes. And one reason why we think that this passage is particularly helpful is because of the context. Paul is writing Philippians from jail, from a prison cell in Rome. He is nearing the end of his ministry. Death is very much a possibility for him. He is trying to prepare people who he loves for that
brenda_payne (03:28.276)
Yeah.
alex_kocher (03:43.836)
He is probably wrestling with how to honor God in his suffering and if I put myself in polishes I think he's probably also wrestling with the fact of God if you call me to this ministry why do you have me here in this place right and that's very anxiety producing. He's concerned about the churches that he's planted he loves these people. They are poor they're being persecuted they're suffering there's false teaching coming in
brenda_payne (03:55.65)
Right?
alex_kocher (04:12.616)
of strife and conflict in these churches. And so he's writing to the Philippians, and not only is he expressing his concern for them, he's also recognizing that they are concerned about him, and that's adding to their burden of anxiety. So I think that Philippians is not just these verses, but the whole book itself is a great place to marinate when we think about anxiety, but particularly in chapter four, he takes us to some specific instructions
brenda_payne (04:22.855)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (04:35.95)
Hmm.
alex_kocher (04:42.857)
and some really helpful guidelines that can help us work through our anxious thoughts.
brenda_payne (04:46.71)
Mm-hmm. Well, as you were talking, I was thinking about how the most of the time I hear Philippians is the book of joy, right? Is the book about joy and how beautiful that is because it is a book about having joy in the Lord in the midst of so much anxiety And so much stress. So I think whenever we come to a Bible passage that we want to unpack like this We need to remember that the Bible is written to other people But it was written for us and it just encourages me personally to know that these are real people
alex_kocher (04:56.198)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (05:04.539)
Yes.
alex_kocher (05:12.818)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
brenda_payne (05:16.71)
real problems who are struggling with real anxiety. And we're gonna see just how gently Paul deals with them. We've talked about this before, how the Lord comes to us, so many of the writers in dealing with anxiety and we see Jesus, we see God himself. There's a great tenderness when we know that the Lord understands our frailty and our fallenness. And so, we're gonna see how gently Paul deals with them.
alex_kocher (05:41.976)
Yeah, I'm glad you said that because Course Philippians is one of my favorite books for my 40th birthday. I memorized it Don't get too excited. It's the only book of the Bible I've ever memorized but right off the bat in chapter 1 we see Paul say one of the most Beautiful things I think he says he says it's right for me to feel this way about you He's describing his love for them He says because I hold you in my heart and I just think it's beautiful that he's expressing such
brenda_payne (05:46.87)
Yeah, nice.
brenda_payne (06:09.591)
Yes.
alex_kocher (06:11.476)
so much affection for them so that when we come to Philippians 4 and again when he's saying don't be anxious about anything he is not wagging his finger in their faces right he is pleading with them of don't live a life consumed by worry please you know the Lord is near and here is how you can overcome anxiety
brenda_payne (06:20.314)
Yep.
brenda_payne (06:27.255)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (06:32.25)
Yeah, and I think that even looking at my anxiety journal that I'm going to share, if my posture is, God is angry with me. He's coming after me. You know, he's got that finger wagging that I want to run and hide. I feel guilt and shame over that anxiety. I don't want to bring it to the Lord. But if I know the Lord is kind to me and I know that he loves me and he is drawing me toward him in my anxiety, that I want to cast my cares on him because I know he cares for me.
alex_kocher (06:58.516)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So we're going to work through your personal journal entry and I'm going to ask you the questions and you're just going to share your answers and we'll, I think it'll be really helpful to have a specific example. So the first thing we're going to do is just gather some basic understanding of this experience of anxiety. What's going on?
brenda_payne (07:19.85)
Yeah, well, first of all, this is a reoccurring worry I've had throughout my adult life. So this is a journal. This is one of the times that I've written about it. My children were a little bit younger as we're going to see from my entry. But I think there's something really powerful about identifying a specific anxiety, naming it and then reframing it. Because for most of us, we don't have a thousand worries. We have a few things we worry about a thousand times. And so to really key in. And I think we want to.
alex_kocher (07:27.804)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (07:40.502)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (07:47.099)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (07:49.85)
times deal with our anxieties like I'm just worried about whatever I'm worried about, God help me not worry. And that's just not very helpful because there is a lot underneath the worry that God wants to unveil, reveal. So the journal is not a magic formula. It's just an intentional way to invite God in to our lives and for us to also reflect because unlike, we talked in the visual theology episode.
how in that particular moment, having a visual theology, a picture is something we can access pretty quickly, but we can't always access words or information about God that will help us in the moment. So journaling is done best after the moment, like when you've stepped away and had a little bit of time to assess and to think about what's gone on, and now we're gonna invite God in. Because typically what happens in anxiety is we kind of cropped God out of the picture, and we're just seeing
alex_kocher (08:38.538)
Yeah, great point.
alex_kocher (08:46.36)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (08:49.83)
a lens or seeing a picture where he's really not relevant or not in control. And so this gives us an opportunity to go back and to see the circumstances in a different light inviting God in and seeing him actually in the worry.
alex_kocher (08:50.357)
Yes.
alex_kocher (08:56.336)
Yeah. Yeah.
alex_kocher (09:06.276)
Yeah, that's a great point. It's kind of what the military people call the after-action review of what happened. So Brenda, in our after-action review, what were you worried about?
brenda_payne (09:10.952)
Yes.
brenda_payne (09:18.03)
Okay, and this again is my journal, so forgive me if it sounds like reading because I am going to be reading from my journal. I'm worried about dying from melanoma. It's a very fast growing and deadly form of skin cancer. I personally have known two people who died within a matter of months after the diagnosis.
alex_kocher (09:25.499)
Yeah.
alex_kocher (09:36.918)
Okay, so where are you and what are you doing? That means like is there a particular time or place that attempts you to worry about this?
brenda_payne (09:42.53)
Yes. And for me, it's when I step out of the shower and unfortunately have to see my body in the mirror. And that might be unfortunate for more reasons than just seeing my moles Alex, but but we won't go to there. But different anxiety journal will save that one for a more private conversation. But when I see myself in the mirror, I'm reminded of all these moles that cover my body and the potential for cancer.
alex_kocher (09:45.997)
Hahaha.
alex_kocher (09:51.817)
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah, different anxiety, different anxiety.
alex_kocher (10:12.696)
Okay, so when you see that how do you respond and what I mean by that is where do you go for refuge or comfort? How are you finding relief?
brenda_payne (10:21.19)
Well, I have this little ABCDE melanoma card. It's a mole detection card on my bathroom mirror. So I immediately go to it and I start inspecting my moles. So here's a little melanoma education for everybody that stands for asymmetry, border, color, diameter and evolution. Now that just alone trying to go through all five of those for every mole on your body. You can just imagine how time consuming
alex_kocher (10:31.262)
Okay.
alex_kocher (10:39.237)
Wow.
alex_kocher (10:47.641)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (10:51.53)
and how worrisome that can be because how can you tell how much a mole has evolved overnight? But anyway, I certainly can't but but that's kind of like well if I just can go because they you know They give you this little card when you leave the doctor and say just be sure you look at your malls Well, I mean I've got hundreds of balls. So here I go
alex_kocher (10:59.763)
Oh
alex_kocher (11:09.996)
So then it's dinner time and you can start your day. I'm getting an education in many ways today. I know nothing about models. Okay, so, Brenda, what are you thinking or saying to yourself? And it's very helpful if you put your internal thoughts in actual quotations just like the words you're saying to yourself. So, I'm gonna start with the first one.
brenda_payne (11:16.712)
Hahahaha
brenda_payne (11:32.05)
Exactly, because in actuality, this is my self-counsel at the moment. That's one thing we just need to recognize is whatever I say to myself in this moment is I am my either best or worst counselor right now to myself. So here's how my self-counsel sounds. How in the world am I going to keep up with all of these moles? There are too many. It's impossible for me to monitor them all. I was so stupid to spend that summer in college as a beach photographer not wearing sunscreen. It's going to be the reason I die from cancer.
alex_kocher (11:39.004)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (11:47.056)
Yes. Okay.
brenda_payne (12:02.01)
Plus, with all my family history, side note, both my parents have had multiple melanomas, I am doomed. I can't do medical stuff either. I'm terrified of the possibility of any painful treatments. I'm going to ruin my witness for Christ if I have to endure this kind of trial. It's a good thing my will is up to date. Oh goodness, or is it? What will my kids do without me? Now, I have tears in my eyes imagining my funeral and the heartbreak of my kids. Notice how my anxieties, Alex, are multiplying.
alex_kocher (12:08.967)
Mm-mm.
alex_kocher (12:25.024)
Mmm.
alex_kocher (12:28.536)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (12:32.516)
Now we see the whole, the thinking and the feeling and the body are all intertwined and there's a cascade is what I like to call it. So we have to intervene in these thoughts. Yes. What did we say in our last episode? Worry is a strangling of the mind. So we have to unstrangle the mind and the way we want to unstrangle the mind is Biblically with three kind of main components.
brenda_payne (12:40.232)
Yes.
brenda_payne (12:45.231)
Yes, I need a divine intervention. Hahaha.
brenda_payne (12:53.17)
That's right.
alex_kocher (13:02.876)
to think biblically and to act biblically. So just as a refresher we're gonna go back to Philippians 4, 4 through 7 and I'm gonna read that to help set the stage for how we address this biblically. Paul is saying to the Philippian church and God therefore is saying to us, rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again, rejoice. Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is
be anxious about anything but in every situation by prayer and petition with thanksgiving present your request to God and the peace of God which transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and your mind in Christ Jesus. You know I think those verses can be some come so familiar we forget how really beautiful they are. Really beautiful and I think that and before we dig too deep into it
brenda_payne (13:47.097)
All right.
brenda_payne (13:52.01)
Yeah, no, I agree.
alex_kocher (14:02.256)
Paul calls us back to, God is near, God is near, God is near, because that is, that's just the place like you said in the opening Brenda, we crop God out of the picture as soon as anxiety comes in.
brenda_payne (14:03.957)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
brenda_payne (14:13.75)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, you're right, because the greatest provision of all of scripture is the promise of God's presence. If we have His presence, we have everything else we need. And so the first thing I'm gonna do in my prayers, I'm gonna acknowledge that the Lord is near. He's not out of this. And then I'm gonna yield to Him. The gentleness that Paul is speaking here really has the idea of yielding or being agreeable to God's plan. And so, you know, I'm trying to grasp my own life at this moment. I'm trying to grasp my own plans. I'm trying to mitigate
alex_kocher (14:24.041)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (14:30.976)
Yes.
alex_kocher (14:39.109)
Hmm.
brenda_payne (14:44.01)
anything bad happening, I'm anticipating, and so the Lord is just asking me to yield. And then I'm going to confess my human frailty and failure. You know, I can tell the Lord of my human weakness, He already knows, and I can talk to Him about my lack of trust. And I just love this because He's going to meet me in both. He's going to meet me in both places. And then I'm going to give thanks and ask for supernatural help because I really do need a divine intervention. I'm really reminded of James 1 when another very familiar passage that we were
alex_kocher (14:57.916)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly.
brenda_payne (15:13.95)
to consider it all joy when we face trials of various kinds, that God is testing and maturing our faith. So from God's perspective, the goal of my anxiety struggle is not just to relieve pain or change my circumstances, but to actually draw me into a deeper, more trusting relationship with Him. And that's only going to happen when I take my eyes off the uncertainty of my circumstances and put them on the assurances of His provision, His protection, His promises, and really even
alex_kocher (15:22.644)
Hmm?
alex_kocher (15:33.079)
Hmm
brenda_payne (15:44.11)
those things in the past, present, and future. And when we do this, Alex, like something supernatural begins to happen. And we're going to learn more about that. Well, let me read my biblical prayer, how I wrote it. Lord Jesus, I love you and I and okay, I love you and I acknowledge that you are near me now in this anxiety about melanoma. I believe that nothing comes to me that has not been filtered through your good, wise, and sovereign hand. And Alex, I really do believe that.
alex_kocher (15:49.204)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (15:54.018)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (15:58.641)
Okay.
alex_kocher (16:07.801)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (16:13.79)
either protect me from elenoma or be with me if I have to face the dreaded diagnosis. But I have so many fears. I desperately want to trust you. Lord, I believe help my unbelief. I thank you for the way you have protected me over the past five decades. I thank you for all the medical knowledge and intervention at my disposal. I thank you that although this cancer is highly deadly, it's normally curable when detected early. It comforts me to know also that in your humanity Christ cried out to you from the garden asking that the cup of
alex_kocher (16:14.716)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (16:43.77)
be taken from him, but he yielded to your will, knowing whatever he faced, he would never have to face it alone. And God, you will always bring resurrection out of the death of those you love.
alex_kocher (16:56.616)
beautiful. And it honestly feels like we could stop there in the sense of what you said Brenda, inviting the presence of God into this and in every aspect of it, into the fear, into the thanksgiving, into the requests that you're making, like we've invited the presence of God into it. But there is one more step in this anxiety journal and that's what really what we would call like
alex_kocher (17:26.516)
This is the idea of replacement. So I think someone once said that if you pull out a rusty nail, you have to put a new nail back in place. And so we can't just take these anxious thoughts away. We want to replace them with something that's going to hold, that's going to be stronger. And so we move on to Philippians 4-8. Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure.
brenda_payne (17:44.692)
Mm.
alex_kocher (17:56.876)
Whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. So God is calling us to move away from our what-ifs and move into what-is. And I don't think it's any accident. I say this to people a lot. I don't think it's any accident that what is true is first. Because so often when we go to a place in our imagination, we're telling ourselves something and we have no idea if it's true or not.
brenda_payne (18:16.235)
Mm.
brenda_payne (18:25.434)
Yeah.
alex_kocher (18:27.536)
It's usually made up. And so truth is, I think, first for a reason. Because our anxieties are telling us a story and we're defaulting to something and we're really creating an untrue story in our minds. And so we are trying to take what First Corinthians calls, vain imaginations, and cast those down and take our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ. So just like we don't have... Our anxiety is not general.
brenda_payne (18:31.75)
Mm.
brenda_payne (18:38.95)
Mm-hmm.
brenda_payne (18:49.956)
Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (18:56.596)
It's very specific. We don't just ask God, oh, help me not to worry or help me not to be anxious. We try to specifically address the specific anxieties and you're gonna show us how we do that. So the possible Paul shows us how to do that when we're under stress. And so we call this a thought filter to help us learn to think biblically. It helps us to take what our internal counsel or our internal monologue is and then write exactly what God would say
speaking back to that to replace that with.
brenda_payne (19:28.87)
Yeah, we have a little handout on the thought filter that we'll also put in the show notes along with the journal, along with this sample journal. Because each one of those words, we read them as if they're kind of just all one big thing, again, really in a general sense. But each one of those words is really instructive in how we can begin to think more biblically, how we can be more heavenly minded, particularly in this area of anxiety. So what I do is if you're looking at the journal, you'll see that I have two columns. And on one column on the left, I have my thinking,
alex_kocher (19:41.928)
Mm-hmm.
brenda_payne (19:58.99)
monologue, my self-counsel during my anxiety. On the other side, I have my biblical thinking, which now is my internal dialogue, because now I've invited God into the conversation, right? And so what I'm going to do is just kind of walk through this. I will, on the one column of my thinking, literally go back to what I wrote and break it down, either sentence by sentence or thought by thought, and then I'll go over to the biblical thinking and think about,
have me think. How does he want me to see this from his perspective? So the first thing I said is how in the world am I going to keep up with all these moles? There are so many it's impossible for me to monitor them all. And so here is what I wrote for my biblical thinking. I can't keep up with them all, but it's not all on me. I have my husband to help me monitor and the doctors. I can do my best, but I have to remember that at the end of the day, no man looking at them is infallible, and there are many other things that could take me home other than melanoma.
alex_kocher (20:32.366)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
brenda_payne (20:59.491)
I need to focus less on when I'm leaving and how well I'm staying. I can trust you God for my todays and my tomorrows.
alex_kocher (21:01.59)
Hmm.
alex_kocher (21:10.316)
Yeah, so even though you're not saying the scripture Matthew 6, you know, at the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 6, 25 or 32, you are taking the truths of Matthew 6 and you're reminding yourself that God takes care of His creation. He's gonna take care of me. I don't have to worry about tomorrow. Today has enough of its end and so you could replace it specifically with scripture but you're taking it particular to your thoughts.
brenda_payne (21:35.09)
Yeah, and I really like doing that. A lot of times I will ask the Lord to give me a scripture as I'm going through. It might be from my quiet time. It might be a scripture that I'm memorizing. It might be something from the sermon. Like I'll really kind of go back and say, where has the Lord had me in his word this week? Because you don't want to use the same, again, talking about that concordance, like I've got five scriptures on anxiety. And when I do this journal, I always come back to those five. That will become very rote and very ineffective.
alex_kocher (22:00.543)
Mm-hmm
Right.
brenda_payne (22:05.17)
this particular anxiety, I really am going to go back to whatever portion of scripture. Sometimes the Lord reminds me of a verse that, you know, or a portion of scripture that I've known for a while, but oftentimes I'm really looking to see what is the Lord maybe showing me right now, even as He's speaking to me through His Word, through all of these different venues. And I just think, even though it's not always a scripture, I want it to be informed by what I know is true. I want to have a biblical worldview when I'm approaching this.
alex_kocher (22:05.638)
Yeah, good point.
alex_kocher (22:32.896)
Right.
brenda_payne (22:35.05)
stupid to spend the summer in college as a beach photographer not wearing sunscreen. It's going to be the reason I die from cancer. And I wrote then in a response, a more biblical response, I have to take responsibility for my choices, but there's nothing I can do to change it now. It was unwise to do so, but it wasn't a sin. I could die from skin cancer, but God has numbered my days already. My time in the sun does not impact my time with the sun, the SON. In the meantime, I can protect myself from further sun exposure and even use my experience to warn others. Thank you, Father.
alex_kocher (23:00.016)
Mm-hmm.
brenda_payne (23:05.13)
nothing can separate me from your loving presence.
alex_kocher (23:10.316)
Yeah, so you're touching on someone 39 there. I can hear of just like God has numbered your days and He knows how you were made and I also like that you're you're already starting to remind yourself of Different action you can take
brenda_payne (23:15.135)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (23:23.93)
Yep. Plus with my family history, both parents have had multiple melanomas. I am doomed. And I always think about this. God has not made me a prophet and certainly not a prophet of doom. I don't know the future. And even with all of their melanomas, my parents have lived to be well in their 80s. The longevity of my life is not dependent on my parents' health history.
alex_kocher (23:31.836)
Hahaha.
alex_kocher (23:36.017)
Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (23:44.097)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah
alex_kocher (23:50.038)
Yeah, yeah, so you're reminding yourself that you're not the omniscient one. You don't know everything and you can't predict the future.
brenda_payne (23:54.27)
That's right. That's right. All right. Then I say to myself in my monologue, I can't do medical stuff and I'm scared to death of any painful treatments. It will ruin my witness. Now, Alex, you know, this is true about me. You deal with chronic pain and you have an incredible witness. It is why the Lord has given me other struggles in my life and not one of chronic sickness because I am such a baby when it comes to any kind of physical pain. So then in my self-counsel,
alex_kocher (24:08.816)
Hahaha.
alex_kocher (24:16.436)
Ha ha!
brenda_payne (24:24.55)
journal inviting God into my conversation. I say left to myself I will ruin my witness even in prosperity right. I am held by the strength of his grip not my own. Imagining these treatments now will only increase my misery today and set me up for more anxiety later. He's given me the courage and strength to undergo other medical procedures. I can trust God that even if I must endure physical pain he will provide strength, endurance, and comfort.
alex_kocher (24:33.416)
Yeah. Ha ha ha ha.
alex_kocher (24:46.845)
Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (24:56.916)
Yeah, that just reminds me again of going ahead of God and our imagination in a way that, you know, we run ahead of His grace. He's giving grace for the moment and we're moving ahead in our imagination. And so it's trusting that the grace is going to meet us there when that situation comes and not before.
brenda_payne (25:17.85)
Yeah, exactly. All right. Then finally I said to myself, it's a good thing. My will is up to date or is it and what will my kids do without me? All right. I invite the Lord into my conversation and my self counsel turns to this. I am alive today and God is providing me ample time to get my affairs in order. Not had any, any diagnoses of cancer yet. Thank the Lord. He has entrusted my children to me as a steward. Ultimately they belong to him. And he's,
alex_kocher (25:27.216)
Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (25:40.737)
Thank you. Bye.
brenda_payne (25:47.95)
able to care for them. This trial is reminding me though of the brevity and uncertainty of life and how much I need him each and every day and I pray this will make me wiser in every relationship and every area of my life.
alex_kocher (26:03.956)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, the scripture that you put here is Ecclesiastes 7-4 and I'm really glad you picked this one. The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning because I do think there's something really interesting here in that we're dealing with anxiety and what anxiety is actually doing is inviting us into grief and we try to avoid grief and in some ways we would, I know this sounds weird, we would rather feel anxious than feel grief and so I think this is a really great
that it's easier for us to do that running around in our mind of trying to solve a bunch of things that We are not given to solve then to take a moment and mourn That there is a time when I will not be there for my children and there is a time when I would that I cannot I can't take hurt away from them that they will hurt and maybe even because of the loss of me And I'm not going to be able to take that hurt away from them And so it's very interesting I think for us to and
brenda_payne (26:40.271)
Thank you. Bye.
alex_kocher (27:04.116)
the journal on this point because I think it'd be interesting for our listeners to even begin to ask themselves the question of what grief am I avoiding when I engage in anxiety and what grief is the Lord asking me to enter into and lament before Him and and see if at times we don't want to move to anxiety because that feels like we're doing something and if we would allow our
brenda_payne (27:12.25)
Hmm.
alex_kocher (27:33.996)
into that grief, we would actually be able to let go of the anxiety that we're covering it up with.
brenda_payne (27:38.25)
Mmm. Yeah, that's a great point. I hadn't thought about that, but that's really good. And that so often that is where anxiety leads us Is what am I gonna lose? That's the fear. I'm gonna lose something Something's gonna be hurtful. Yeah the loss
alex_kocher (27:48.351)
Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (27:53.556)
Right, and we said in our last episode that anxiety is connected to our desires, that it reveals our desires, and our desires are connected to our grief. So they all kind of all go together. Because when we desire things, we realize that they're never fully met here. And so we'll probably do a whole podcast on grief, but I think it is worth touching on here that there's an intersection of anxiety and grief.
brenda_payne (27:57.422)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (28:03.853)
Mm-hmm. Yeah
brenda_payne (28:12.376)
Yep.
brenda_payne (28:17.65)
No, that's good. All right, got one more step in this process, Alex. All right. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this. I'm gonna go ahead and do this
alex_kocher (28:24.756)
Okay biblical actions. So Philippians 4-9 says, Whatever you have learned or received or heard or seen in me, put it into practice. So Paul is giving us, I think this is great because anxiety does produce a certain amount of energy, a feeling that we need to have somewhere to go with it. And so it is good to think about, okay, what is my next biblical step? What is my next biblical action?
brenda_payne (28:51.23)
I think it's really good because so often, you know, people almost think that if I do something with my anxiety that demonstrates somehow or another, I'm not trusting God. But if we think about emotions, this idea that that emotion is actually leading us to some sort of motion, then we're like, okay, so what is this energy? How can this energy that God has given me be maybe productively channeled in a way that is in a line with what God would say?
alex_kocher (29:04.398)
Mm-hmm. That's a great point.
brenda_payne (29:21.09)
say is good and right. So here's some of the simple things. Um, and there's kind of two ideas of responsibility or taking actions. I think one is taking responsibility or actions about your anxiety. And then we're going to talk about after you've done that, how about taking responsibility for this moment, because now you've got to move forward. So first of all, how can I alleviate my anxiety? Here's what I wrote in my journal, meditate on the powerful truths of God's word.
alex_kocher (29:24.622)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (29:43.897)
Right.
brenda_payne (29:51.69)
God's word is powerful. It's powerful. And so I think scripture memory, scripture meditation, in this case, I put up Psalm 9012 in my bathroom mirror to personalize it. I said, as a prayer, really teach me to number my days that I may gain a heart of wisdom. And that's just gonna be the ongoing. And again, it doesn't have to be anxiety versus Alex. There's so much of the scriptures that are going to speak to my anxiety.
alex_kocher (29:56.466)
Hmm.
alex_kocher (30:19.204)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (30:21.05)
at different times. So whatever verse is speaking to me, however the Holy Spirit is highlighting something in God's word or a story from God's word, then I can meditate on those things. I'll continue.
alex_kocher (30:32.296)
I love it because you're asking God to teach me to number my days and not my moles.
brenda_payne (30:35.69)
There you go. Yeah, that's exactly right. Exactly. Well, it kind of goes back to that idea of it's not what I know. It's how I'm known, right? And so God has numbered my days. I can trust him. So I don't have to keep numbering the moles. I'll continue to do monthly body checks. It's a little excessive for me to do them every day, Alex, because I can't evaluate a change in one day, but once a month is a reasonable amount of time that won't have me, you know, ruminating on them.
alex_kocher (30:46.379)
Yes.
alex_kocher (30:57.177)
Yeah, yes.
brenda_payne (31:05.59)
to see my doctor every six months for full body checks. I go every six months and from head to toe, from my little toes all the way to the scalp of my hair. You know, my doctor checks me over. I will religiously put on sunscreen and continue to protect myself from sun exposure. So, you know, there was a time I was very flippant with that, but I tried to be very careful about that now. I'll talk to Paul to make sure my will is updated and take appropriate measures, you know, because there may be even something in that that the Lord is saying, Hey, this is something that
alex_kocher (31:12.836)
Hmm?
Hmm?
alex_kocher (31:32.718)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
brenda_payne (31:35.51)
need to do, get your will in line. Again, it may not be melanoma that's going to take me, but something is, I'm going to leave and I want to have my affairs in order. So those were just a few things that I, this particular time I put on my journal. The other part I think we have to look at is what other responsibilities do I need to focus on now? I love Elizabeth Elliott used to always say, do the next right thing. Yeah, and we just have to remember, you know, if worry is fetal,
alex_kocher (31:39.418)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (31:46.08)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (31:59.538)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (32:05.47)
energy and we're accountable to steward the time and resources that God has given us today, then we need to focus on today remembering that today has enough trouble of its own. So in this situation, I just wrote, I need to go to work and focus on the person in front of me in order to minister to them. Well, which was great. I don't need to go to work thinking about my moles and considering my ABCDEFGHIJK whatever about my moles. But I can just really focus on the next person in front of me. And when I come home, I can focus my attention.
alex_kocher (32:05.829)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (32:17.721)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (32:31.377)
Ha ha ha!
brenda_payne (32:35.51)
loving and serving my husband. Um, you know, just whatever is in front of me, I kind of have this way that after I go through this, I will be like, okay, I have prayed about this. I have thought about this. I have done what I can. And now I truly need to stop paying attention to this and to begin to pay attention to what is in front of me. What does God have for me right now? And honestly, that's part of the antidote for my worry is to be present and focused where I am now. And again, not in that.
alex_kocher (32:55.682)
Mm-hmm
Thank you. Thank you.
alex_kocher (33:02.916)
Thank you. Bye.
brenda_payne (33:06.43)
you know, maybe the what if and the maybe of what could happen down the road. And then the result, I just will read Philippians 4-9, the last part of this says, and the peace of God be with you. And peace is that idea of inner quietness of soul. It has nothing to do with the circumstances or the people or what's going on around us. Really, that the peace of God and the peace that's from God is going to be a fruit of the Spirit. It doesn't come naturally to us.
alex_kocher (33:12.616)
Thank you. Bye.
alex_kocher (33:19.78)
Mm-hmm
brenda_payne (33:35.57)
and it's really cultivated as we practice the presence of God through good biblical self-counsel. And what I've come to realize is really the distance between what I'm worried about and trusting God is the distance that I have to grow, that God is maturing my faith, that he's calling me to be more like Christ in trust.
alex_kocher (33:43.22)
Yeah.
alex_kocher (33:51.517)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (33:58.256)
Well, we said Brenda, well, first of all, thank you. I think it's really vulnerable of you to share your thought journal with us and to really dig into what your worries are because those are really personal and can seem, may not make sense to somebody else, but it's so real to us, especially in that moment of fear. We also said that we wanted to give a body tool
brenda_payne (34:18.712)
Yes.
alex_kocher (34:27.016)
these struggles and we talked about breathing and linking it to lowering anxiety in our last episode but today we want to focus on meditation which really this whole thought journal it is a meditation exercise and a meditation may not seem like a body tool but what we're what we're hearing and what we're learning more and more from neuroscience is that what we pay attention to is important because it's actually creating neural pathways in our
and actually create ruts in our brain. And so we wanna change those ruts through biblical thoughts. And so we wanna meditate on biblical thoughts. So Dr. Kurt Thompson talks a lot about that we need to pay attention to what we're paying attention to. And I think a lot of times when I pay attention to what I'm paying attention to, I catch myself in anxiety. And so that's where we need to change our meditations. And he says that these
brenda_payne (34:58.713)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (35:10.914)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (35:17.171)
Right.
alex_kocher (35:27.116)
are going to have a negative impact on our body and our soul. So this journal helps us to change our thought process, change their neural pathways, literally change our brains, which is really exciting and really motivating to me to think about. We've seen that anxiety does all these negative things to our bodies, but what we recognize is that meditation and changing our thought
brenda_payne (35:36.53)
Yeah? Yeah.
alex_kocher (35:56.856)
digesting biblical thought that there's actually a relaxation response that helps decrease metabolism, lower blood pressure, improve heart rate, breathing and brain waves, tension and tightness come out of our muscles and our bodies receive messages that allow us to relax. So I love that this journal it doesn't just leave us to wonder what meditation is, it walks us step by step through the process of meditation.
brenda_payne (35:56.95)
Thank you. Bye.
brenda_payne (36:24.67)
Yeah, exactly. And you know what? I'm tempted to worry about melanoma or really anything else, um, to sit down and to focus my redirect and refocus my attention on what God has to say, what is true and then inviting God in. It's really impossible at that point then for me to continue having anxiety and worry over the thing I was anxious about. So, um, the other thing I would just say as we wrap up is it's really wonderful. If you can share what you've written.
alex_kocher (36:48.916)
Thank you.
brenda_payne (36:54.67)
even today sharing it with you and with our listeners. There's something just really powerful. Even going back over it, I was like, wow, Lord, because the reality is, is Alex, I actually don't struggle with this as much very much as much very much. Is that, can I say that? Um, but this was a journal that was sometime earlier on. I continue to wrestle a lot. Like it was very overcoming for me for a period and then it wasn't as bad. And honestly, the worst part of it for me now is I still have to get moles removed.
alex_kocher (37:08.418)
Mmm. Yeah. Yeah.
brenda_payne (37:24.61)
last year, you might remember, I got these two big chunks taken out of my back. And I was far more worried and anxious about that procedure than I was actually about dying from melanoma. And so, you know, my anxiety is not gone, but it's just was so beautiful for me to reflect and go, Lord, when was the last time that I really had that particular anxiety and was, and I felt choked and strangled by it. Um, and so just, you know, I, what has happened is, is just
alex_kocher (37:29.581)
Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (37:35.016)
Thank you. Thank you.
Right.
alex_kocher (37:48.227)
Mm-hmm.
alex_kocher (37:51.94)
Right.
brenda_payne (37:54.55)
greater trust in God that God has shown me through this process, his great love for me, his great care for me, his oversight for me, all the reminders of truth, looking to him, crying out to him. He's just been so faithful to answer my prayers and to meet me and has changed me body and soul. And so I'm so thankful for that. And then being able to share that is again a reminder to me. It makes me praise. It helps me see how much I've grown. Maybe it helps somebody else.
alex_kocher (38:16.22)
Yeah.
brenda_payne (38:24.61)
Like today as we've shared it, maybe somebody else's helped to go. That could be a tool that would be really useful for me as well to comfort or to challenge. Yeah. So I just I would really commend this. It takes time. That is the only thing I will say. It's not a tool that can be done quickly. It will take time and energy. It will take focus. But it's worth it.
alex_kocher (38:49.856)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, thank you Brenda for sharing that with us and I hope it's helpful again We really recommend that people have it in front of them as you go through it and I hope it's helpful Not only for our listeners hearts But also like you said as a tool for them to enter into someone else's anxiety and help them work through it I know for me I'm not one who's apt to want to sit and write it down, but I will talk it out with somebody I like to verbally process
brenda_payne (39:14.95)
Yes. Well, and let me just say that on a final note. So there is great value in writing it down, but once you've written it down a few times and you've gotten used to it, yes, it doesn't always have to be written down. You can take those three simple principles to pray biblically, to think biblically, to act biblically, and you can begin just to do self-counsel. And then you can catch yourself. That's another beautiful part of it is once the journaling you've done, the journaling, you have the understanding of how to do it. Now you're entering
alex_kocher (39:19.616)
Thank you.
alex_kocher (39:29.723)
Mm-hmm
alex_kocher (39:39.466)
Mm.
brenda_payne (39:44.75)
into a season of worry, you can actually catch yourself on the front end. But typically you have to do it on the back end to get the practice, kind of like the visual theology you talked about. We need the practice. We need to make those connections. And then it becomes something that in the moment or right before we're headed toward anxiety, we can say, wait, wait, wait, wait, I've got, I've got a way I can engage God with this. I don't have to go into this hard circumstance alone or by myself. Yeah. Yeah.
alex_kocher (39:48.418)
Yes.
alex_kocher (39:53.016)
Yes.
alex_kocher (40:11.439)
Well, thank you for sharing this helpful tool and we hope that this will be helpful for our listeners.
brenda_payne (40:12.311)
Yeah, of course.